Existing Somewhere in the Transgender Spectrum

Wednesday,
Great discussion you have started here. I think there maybe quite a few of us in the same state that your finding yourself. One of the things I find interesting on this forum is that folks often refer to themselves when en-fem as their true or real self. Maybe what they mean is that wearing what is considered female clothing is how they like to present to others. But their true/real self is what they are all day every day clothing is optional when it comes to being yourself.
I do enjoy dressing and I usually dress to blend I think I tend to pass ok or at least no one cares.When I go to a drag club I certainly break out the heels and a short skirt and tend to blend there to with the other girls. I would love to dress wild and crazy but societies norms mess that up for normal out and about.
I guess what we are all looking for is happiness and acceptance and that would be nice BUt I do find cross dressing at least for me a fetish. I do get a thrill out of it. It is emotional, a happiness high. When I go back to drab I don't necessarily loss the high all though it does fade after a bit. I think if I were to stay cross dressed all the time I would lose the high I get from it. That has happened after several days of constant dressing. If I take a break for a bit and then go back the thrill returns. I am not sure of the definition of fetish but if it is getting a thrill an adrenaline rush it qualifies. When the thrill is gone so is the bra unitil I need another harmless adrenaline buzz.

I like that Lisa the bi gender can be a new letter in the LGBT spectrum. I love switching back and for also It is just fun

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Originally Posted by Sallee

I think if I were to stay cross dressed all the time I would lose the high I get from it. That has happened after several days of constant dressing.

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At one point a few years ago I tried this theory on myself, dressing at every possible opportunity (at home -- even a Yugo running on 2 cylinders has a better chance of passing than me!) in an attempt to spoil the novelty of it. It was never spoiled. I just became even more comfortable dressed, and I have maintained a much higher percentage in drag compared to drab. Good for you that you can control this, Sallee. It controls me (or so it seems).

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Originally Posted by DebbieL

Keep in mind that being transgender is a wide spectrum, from someone who is completely cis-gender (0), to someone who is a "transition or die" transsexual (6).

It's been a while since I looked at the Benjamin scale but using 1 line summaries, here are some of the intermediate grades.

1 - cisgender but enjoys wearing feminine items, usually for sexual pleasure, and loses desire to dress shortly after climax.
2 - cisgender most of the time, but enjoys cross-dressing, looking and acting like a girl as much as possible and practical, but privately.
3 - cross-dresser, enjoys dressing in private and with carefully selected friends in safe environments, such as support groups.
4 - cross-dresser, enjoys dressing up frequently and is willing to take measures to make sure they can pass, but does not wish to transition.
5 - transsexual, the "girl trapped in a man's body" - would like to transition but not willing to do the pain, risk, and changes required for transition, desire is there.
6 - "transition or die" transsexual - aware of gender dysphoria at young age, had trouble "passing" as a guy, has wanted to transition from early age.

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Debbie, I've seen this scale before and it frustrates the heck out of me. I can be sure that neither 1 nor 6 are applicable to me. But then it gets trickier. I see elements of 3, 4 and 5 in me (although as of late my numbers are definitely rising higher). But my inability to pass forces me to stay at home, which would seem to rule out 4 and 5, but I'm not sure at all I can rule those out. (However, I am doing things that would in time potentially allow me to reverse my closeted stance, which is why this scale upsets me.)

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Originally Posted by DebbieL

Being in the middle is probably the most awkward place of all. The desire to change is there, but the external forces are too much to risk.

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In the middle. I am there. Ugh. Wednesday, I can relate to your feelings.

Karen

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Wednesday, do you find you transition between modes when you wake up, or does the change happen throughout the day?

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AletaHawk, since I started paying more attention (as part of trying to be more self aware) and -- as my therapist puts it: be more integrated, I have noticed that I slip in and out of "Wednesday mode" fairly often, regardless of my presentation or what I may be doing at the time. 'Tis an interesting feeling... it's a weird calm that hits me, like an endorphin rush, like I'm a little high... and then I'm her. But still me. But not. My experiences as Wednesday are more sensory. How things feel, smell, taste -- The emotional. Male me is more detail oriented, more matter of fact...

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Wishing you the best drop me a line sometime I would like to explore this further.

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Lisa: Likewise. :)

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AletaHawk, since I started paying more attention (as part of trying to be more self aware) and -- as my therapist puts it: be more integrated, I have noticed that I slip in and out of "Wednesday mode" fairly often, regardless of my presentation or what I may be doing at the time. 'Tis an interesting feeling... it's a weird calm that hits me, like an endorphin rush, like I'm a little high... and then I'm her. But still me. But not.

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I experienced this for a while. It was a really weird feeling. It stopped after a while - or rather "guy mode" became so uncomfortable that I could no longer endure it, while being Paula just felt normal. I'd really repressed this stuff though.

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Originally Posted by Wednesday

AletaHawk, since I started paying more attention (as part of trying to be more self aware) and -- as my therapist puts it: be more integrated, I have noticed that I slip in and out of "Wednesday mode" fairly often, regardless of my presentation or what I may be doing at the time. 'Tis an interesting feeling... it's a weird calm that hits me, like an endorphin rush, like I'm a little high... and then I'm her. But still me. But not.

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I've noticed the same thing. I started out as more of a 1 on DebbieL's scale, but now I find myself at a 4. Once I actually attempted to understand who I was, I discovered the thrill wasn't sexual at all, but the general great feeling I get when I'm not holding part of my personality in.

Also like DebbieL said, I'd come out if it wasn't for the potential issues it might cause my wife and family. I'm ready to embrace Aleta as part of my life. Some days, I just want to wear a dress to work. Why should that be such an issue?

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Originally Posted by AletaHawk

I'm ready to embrace Aleta as part of my life. Some days, I just want to wear a dress to work. Why should that be such an issue?

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On some level, I see it as an unfortunate social double standard. However, times are changing and as more and more of the current generation comes out, they effectively hold open the door for the rest of us. I found the following article from Rolling Stone to be quite encouraging:http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/...story-20141223

The wife and family concern you have is tricky. On the one hand, there's all the secrecy and deception. It can be seen as not just a breakdown in trust and communication, but as flat out lying. Which often times it is, (whether it's meant to be or not) -- let's be real. And that's hard to bounce back from if you're ever discovered. On the other hand, while being candid and truly open and honest can be something that can bring people closer and deepen the love that is already there, there is also the nearly crippling fear of everything blowing up in your face. When I came out to September, I was TERRIFIED. But in the end I trusted in our love and more importantly -- her. It's been work -- for both of us, but we stay thoughtful of each other and in many ways our relationship has grown stronger.

Anyhow.

I totally see where you're coming from and sincerely wish you the very best as you sort all this out...

xox

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Originally Posted by AletaHawk

I've noticed the same thing. I started out as more of a 1 on DebbieL's scale, but now I find myself at a 4. Once I actually attempted to understand who I was, I discovered the thrill wasn't sexual at all, but the general great feeling I get when I'm not holding part of my personality in.

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If you notice progression, which some of us do, don't do what I did, and wait until you hit 6 on the scale before you start to do anything. I waited until I hit 'transition or die,' and am damned lucky I didn't die.

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Originally Posted by Wednesday

The wife and family concern you have is tricky. On the one hand, there's all the secrecy and deception. It can be seen as not just a breakdown in trust and communication, but as flat out lying. Which often times it is, (whether it's meant to be or not) -- let's be real.

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Lying huh? Well big damned deal! In a world that only recently has (grudgingly) made slight accommodation to the gender variant, what would any reasonable person do? Yeah it sucks for her too - of course it does. But thats just sort of the price of life in a world where almost nobody is really honest about themselves, not to mention tthise who have to hide because part of their identity brings with it often serious social repercussions.

Aleta, if you begin to feel serious enough gender dysphoria, you have to ignore how transition, whatever that means for you, affects your present life. Because it'll likely wreck parts of it, in exchange for saving your life.

Trust me, you don't want to be a '6'.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

If you notice progression, which some of us do, don't do what I did, and wait until you hit 6 on the scale before you start to do anything. I waited until I hit 'transition or die,' and am damned lucky I didn't die...Trust me, you don't want to be a '6'.

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Fortunately (for me anyway), 4 is a hard ceiling. I thoroughly enjoy my male days. As I explained to my wife tonight when we were talking, where I'm struggling now is waking up and wanting to wear her clothes to work because I feel more like her than I do like me. I'd just love to have the choice. It absolutely comes with challenges, and I'm not ready for them.

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Originally Posted by Wednesday

The wife and family concern you have is tricky. On the one hand, there's all the secrecy and deception. It can be seen as not just a breakdown in trust and communication, but as flat out lying. Which often times it is, (whether it's meant to be or not) -- let's be real. And that's hard to bounce back from if you're ever discovered. On the other hand, while being candid and truly open and honest can be something that can bring people closer and deepen the love that is already there, there is also the nearly crippling fear of everything blowing up in your face. When I came out to September, I was TERRIFIED. But in the end I trusted in our love and more importantly -- her. It's been work -- for both of us, but we stay thoughtful of each other and in many ways our relationship has grown stronger.

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My wife has shocked me with how supportive she's been, but I have no idea how the rest of her family will react. They don't usually do well with change.

Thank you for your support, everyone! This thread (which I really didn't mean to hijack) has been a lifesaver. It's exactly what I'd hoped for when I decided to open up and commit to this community and I couldn't be happier with the result. Hopefully I'll be able to start showing the real Aleta to all of you soon :)

Regarding Debbie's scale...I think I am in the middle and can really relate to the family and friend concerns. (But sometimes I will slide more toward number 5, especially when I can be more feminine for an extended period.) I have gotten comfortable in this middle position and have come to love it. I can experience the world from both a male and female persona. As a TG, I think our emotional range is much broader then the average person and our lives can be so rich and fulfilling.

This is always an interesting topic for me. Usually, I fall into the camp of rejecting labels. But lately, I have re-examined some of them. For instance, I have always identified as bisexual, but lately I have been wanting to be exclusively with men. I would even like a boyfriend. Should I now call myself "gay"?

In regards to the word "transgender", for me it really seems to revolve around the idea of "identity". I have never struggled with my gender identity; I am very happy being a biological man who dresses like a woman. Some of my male acquaintances identify as being a women. I'm starting to feel that the word "transgender" may be more appropriate for someone who identifies as the opposite sex.

Now whether or not a cross-dresser should fall under the "transgender umbrella" is an interesting question. For instance, why would anyone care about falling under that umbrella? Maybe for social-activist reasons? Maybe to find other like minded individuals like groups and clubs? Or maybe there is a deep human need to always be defining ourselves?

Another interesting question is the old "transvestic fetishism" label. It seems obvious that there are people who use objects of clothing for sexual stimulation only, but that seems really rare in this forum. Most gals enjoy shopping, dressing up, hanging out. Its a life-style.

The word transvestite has Latin roots, but is pejorative so no longer appealing.

I'm not intending to stoke any fires with these words, just describing my own process.

Very thought provoking, reading this thread,
Having never seen this scale before and not asked myself these questions, I found it quite challenging to place myself on any particular number, although if I'm honest I think I'm wandering about 3-5, I know I'm on a different number today than 2 or 3 months back though. How life changes when you're not expecting it!

In late 2007, I first started to dress en femme. It was not for sexual pleasure though. So at that time I was a 1. Until the beginning of 2011 I had progressed to around the 2 and 3 level.

In the beginning of 2011 I started to go out in public. At first it was to gay and cross dresser bars. Also, when I went out it was only when I was out of town. Gradually I expanded going out to movie theaters. I got tired of the bar scene. By the end of 2011 I had gotten to the 4 level. Also during 2011 I would only go out in the evening . During that year I started to shop en femme for the first time.

In 2012 I would at times go out a little earlier like 3:30 or 4 in the afternoon. During that year I transitioned to the point that whenever I went shopping for female attire I was doing it enfemme.

In May of 2013, for the first time, I went out the whole day dressed en femme. In fact during that time I spent 2 consecutive days dressed en femme.

In August of 2013 I decided that I needed makeup lessons, and went to see a professional makeup artist. This move seemed to increase my confidence and in that month I went out for the first time dressed en femme in the town that I lived in.

Starting in 2014 I started doing more of my everyday activities dressed en femme. That is activities outside of my job.

The next big step for me was when in April of 2014 I decided to fly pretty on a trip to Chicago from Phoenix. I was gone for 5 days and spent all my time there dressed en femme. To make sure I would not be tempted to go drab at all, I packed no male clothes. This meant that every dealing I had with someone I did it in female mode, like checking into a hotel.

In June of 2014 I spent my longest period of time consecutively dressed en femme, which was a period of 9 days. It was great to be able to do this, but yet depressing when it ended.

I am now outside of work dressing en femme most of the time. Recently I had a package I had to pick up from the apartment office, and I went down to the office en femme and picked up the package and was treated courteously by the person in the office. So I outed myself to the apartment building staff.

Now I would say I am a 5 but have not gotten to level 6. A few years ago transitioning was something I never considered a possibility . At the time I thought just dressing once every few months would be good enough. Now I think of transitioning as something I may want to do. I have even researched changing my gender marker. The desire to be a girl continues to grow.

At this time I am not sure what my next step should be. One thing I need to do is to see a counselor about this. I do have a person in mind that I would like to see. Maybe I just will continue like I am, and for work purposes will be en drab, but when outside of work I will present as a women when out in public. I just have so many conflicting emotions on this and there is just so much to sort out.

I am not married and have no SO, and also no children, so that does make things a little less complicated. There is still the issue of my mother and siblings and other relatives.

To sum it up, looking back since late 2007, I have surprised myself at my movement on the transgender spectrum. Life would be so much easier if I would have not gone beyond the early stages and had been satisfied staying there.

Hi Wednesday - I've been meaning to reply for a few days now, but... y'know... anyhow... nice to have you back again... :D

Jorja has great generic advice here - you fit somewhere in this mad mélange we all inhabit. If you're feeling more comfortable with you, or you know what it is that gets you there, then go with the flow - your unique flow... or floe, at this time of year... and in northern climes.. ;)

I think the Benjamin scale is about as much use to us a 6" pocket rule would be to an artillery spotter... Limited. The groupings may well have identified clusters at the time they were made, but so many of us clearly shift and flex outside those specific categories, we really do deserve to treat ourselves as individuals when we're determining what is right for ourselves. Similar to Karen62 I have been everywhere between 1-4 and it's hard to see how that's helpful for me - I have to work this out for me, and on my own, but I get where you are about the analysis and understanding. I'd love for there to be something definitive that someone could say to me: "you are a CD catIV section 9b non-transitional.." or somesuch, but I'll keep asking 'why' because that's my nature, even if I knew... LoL

I think TG is a BIG umbrella - we should all try to be happy that we can share certain perspectives even if our motivations and presentation are different. It's great to be diverse... rather obtusely I can imagine that makes some of us want to be more so... like me... :devil:

Keep on that journey, Wednesday - you only get one real lap of the track of life... :)

Katey x

I think a lot of us, me included, have a hard time dealing with uncertainty and not being in control. Trying to control every aspect of our lives and be certain of everything about ourselves, is a recipe for obsessive worry and anxiety. I've been able to make progress the last decade or so in letting go of the need to control this. Most of the time now I can just "go with the flow" and not worry so much about where I am on the spectrum.

Hi Wednesday, If we could find a normal Crossdresser then we would have a starting point to work from.

"... Alice came to a fork in the road. "Which road do I take?" she asked. "Where do you want to go?" responded the Chesire Cat. "I don't know," Alice answered. "Then," said the cat, "it doesn't really matter." ..."
-Lewis Carroll Alice in Wonderland

I think it could well be said that we are all at a fork in the road.

I am GF, married t a cross-dresser. I have read this thread with interest and wish to respectfully put my question out to you all. Many of you have stated something like "I feel so free (in fem mode)."

Do you think a part of this response might be keyed to the fact that male roles are stringent and limiting?

An experience of mine may illustrate what I mean even though it is not obviously related to gender roles.

Back in the 90s I spent some time living in Central American. Gender roles there were traditional and straight forward, but community expectations did not apply to foreigners. I would not be seen as a woman like the women of their culture, no matter what. I and my fellow foreigners were seen as crazy foreigners, not good women or bad men.

A lot of us did act oddly- being outside our native community's expectations gave an intoxicating sense of freedom. All the expectations of our native contexts were not there and suddenly we could be more spontaneous and happier, as it worked out. I was relieved of the gender expectations inside my own head, miraculously and surprisingly. We never expected it. I moved freer and my laugh was more relaxed.

I hope that explains my question a bit. Your situation is not comparable, but is there an element that is not just embrace of femaleness but also escape from maleness?

I am really enjoying the discourse this thread has produced! Thank you everyone for your thoughtful and candid input.

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...I think the Benjamin scale is about as much use to us a 6" pocket rule would be to an artillery spotter... Limited. The groupings may well have identified clusters at the time they were made, but so many of us clearly shift and flex outside those specific categories, we really do deserve to treat ourselves as individuals when we're determining what is right for ourselves... I have to work this out for me, and on my own...

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Katey: Agreed.

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Most of the time now I can just "go with the flow" and not worry so much about where I am on the spectrum.

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Jaime: Kudos! I'm not there yet, but hope to adopt a similar attitude in time. ;)

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Do you think a part of this response might be keyed to the fact that male roles are stringent and limiting? ... Is there an element that is not just an embrace of femaleness but also an escape from maleness?

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Stumble: I cannot speak for anyone else, but for me that is a big part of it: The limiting, counter intuitive mold I was expected to fit into, leading into the emotional freedom and wholeness I feel when en femme... feel free to PM me if you (or anyone) would like to chat some more about this. :)

xox

I have to agree with those having trouble fitting into a "scale." The truth is that life is not a static, deterministic and rational number. I am a dynamic, stochastic and irrational number function. I'm happy that way.

I'm a great one for parallels and here is one that strikes me in response to this discussion.

For those of us who are parents, we have often heard the phrase that "They (kids) don't come with Instruction Manuals.". Similarly, wherever we happen to be on the transgender spectrum, there is no Instruction Manual to tell us what to think about, what to worry about and what to dismiss. We do have the benefit of those who have gone before, but every situation is unique. There are dozens upon dozens of variables: how you grew up, where you grew up, family situation, educational experiences, sexual experiences, and on and on. When and how strong all of these factors come into play all work to individualize the particular set of conditions that we see before us.

One of the problems that we have as males is listening to, and attempting to understand, our feelings. Much of our conditioning is based on suppressing our feelings to the point where, in theory, they don't interfere with what we are supposed to be doing. From the viewpoint of a crossdresser, this can often be very confusing. Dressing puts us in a different place from which to view the world. Judging by what I've read here, many are surprised at the new feelings that they have discovered. The truth is that those feelings have been there all of the time, but we've put a lot of effort into ignoring and suppressing them.

So, if there is no Instruction Manual, what do we do? It is imperative that we listen to our feelings and think about what they mean. If we trip along the way, there are forums, support groups and professional help out there to be accessed. It's also important to realize that as unruly and contentious as some of our life situations are, others have been in very similar circumstances and been able to survive and move forward. It doesn't necessarily mean "This is how you do it.", but is does speak to "This is what is possible.".

I certainly understand why people struggle with the scale. I don't think it's a set in stone number. I slide along it all the time. Lately I've been feeling very "male". I rarely dress in general (lack of opportunity), but even the desire has been gone lately. Still, I know it'll come back around soon. That's why I like the spectrum concept as well. You may start in one spot, but your label may change as you learn more and more about yourself. I know mine has.

Hi all, rarely here, but saw this, thought I'd chime in, if I may.

What am I? A question that follows me around. I get Ma'am regularly, regardless of my clothes. Yes, with my hair much longer it was pretty routine, but even shorter now I get it. I agree with the comments about the scale, not terribly useful, in my very humble opinion.

So, who/what am I? Well, Born male, I'm ok with that. But I'm clearly not a "guy". I love my shoes and wear Mary Janes almost exclusively. Sooooo comfy and I like the cuteness of them. Wear pants from the "other side of the store" 99% of the time. Again, much comfier, I like the styling, very cute and much softer than pants labeled for men. I shave, from the eyebrows down. Much prefer that. And I have nice legs, thank you very much. mid to late 50s, by the way.

Gender? not a 'guy', but really 'girl', I guess. Just lil ol me. Gender fluid? Bi Gender? Fine, I'm ok with all that. Trans? Yes, I suppose so, but I consider that a huge category and not everyone agrees. Do I care? less so every day.

Married? Yep. To the most wonderful woman in the world. She accepts me, loves me, and we go shopping, sometimes, together. No desire whatsoever to transition. We both like the parts we have. ;-) On vacations my preference is skirts, but haven't crossed (tee her) that line in my day to day yet. Would anyone be surprised? not likely, so it's me that hasn't gone there yet. Also, I deal with the public all the time, and I just don't want the hassles, nor do I want to make people uncomfortable. Leggings? yep, wear those regularly. Gotten some comments from friends. "Come back from Yoga?" Recently someone I know said "Those look like ladies shoes". I informed him they were my shoes. I bought 'em. He laughed and said "Ok, fait enough." No doubt much discussion later that evening, but it's fine with me.

What am I getting at? Not sure, except to underline what's been said here many times, you are who you are. You have to do what you feel comfortable with doing. And, try to get rid of the fear, it's not a good thing in your life.

Good luck, hang in, and keep talking with your other half. For me, she's the anchor in my life.

Hey all!!

So, I have been reading and re-reading this thread... I deeply appreciate everyone's very thoughtful comments. I still don't really buy into labeling but -- for the time being, feel I need some sort of anchor or reference point while I get better acquainted with myself. Hopefully, I will eventually reach some solid ground where I no longer feel as adrift as I often do in this matter... That said, I have arrived at the term: "Bi-gendered." It's described as: "a tendency to move between feminine and masculine gender-typed behavior depending on context. Some bi-gender individuals express a distinctly "female" persona and a distinctly "male" persona, feminine and masculine respectively."

This very much lines up with how I tend to present myself. It may not be accurate or even correct, but as I said, it provides something for me to wrap my head around as I continue to figure things out...

:)

Hiya Wednesday. Yes, BiGendered, or even Gender Fluid, seems to suit me as well. It's a journey, and whatever works for you is the right thing. I'm happy for you.

By the by, I love Columbus. Been there a few times for work. Have a Columbus Pride shirt I bought a couple of years ago during Pride. Oh bummer, just looked it up, I'll miss Columbus Pride this year. In a couple of weeks too early. :-(

I am not anywhere on any "transgender" spectrum. I am not wishing to become female. I am not attracted to my own sex. I have nothing in common with the LGBT groups you see parading so proudly as they should.
I am a sensual heterosexual male who likes to occasionally wear beautiful scents, fabrics, styles, coiffures and such that many call feminine.
That makes me a heterosexual crossdresser in their eyes and that's fine with me.