Is the world today leaving us here behind?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

In order for this forum to survive, a prevailing attitude has to be, "live and let live". :)

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The best comment on this thread--thanks Reine. I sense a bit of a combative attitude with the OP...spoiling for a fight because we just don't get it.

My posts tend to be trivial and about fashion, but that is just a way to express the tip of the iceberg. Maybe the OP can compartmentalize her (or should I say "his") CD activities and be happy as a man. Great. I think there are many of us who dress to express repressed femininity (try saying that 3 times fast) and we use superficial topics and some levity to keep from going crazy. I just want to look and dress like a woman...and situation permitting, I would do so 24/7. Frankly, I don't care where that puts me on the spectrum. It's obvious from this forum that there is gender expression all over the map, and after all, it's uniquely personal.

I don't feel an obligation to educate society about CD or advance our cause as a new pillar in the diversity wars.

Thanks again Reine for your contribution.

Gretchen

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Originally Posted by AngelaYVR

I do not muster under some flag,

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You do actually, whether you like it or not. You are a representation. Again, whether you like it or not. You are not living your live in isolation. You are posting (some) of your life on the internet, which is world wide, and permanently available world-wide. Ok, you yourself may be still be able to be anonymous, but your words, and what you say, online, are not. Those are here to stay.

Once again, I'm not asking for this site to turn political. By the same token however, I'm asking that this site doesn't ignore political issues.

Your response does not help, for what you have effectively stated is that you'll have your (anonymous) say, then retreat back into your own safe world. You, by definition, are helping no one. If you're ok with that, then fair enough. Just understand that when push comes to shove, when issues that do affect people like you, you will equally have no say, and instead have people, whether you agree with them or not, speak for you.

I'm confused about why it's so important that these matters are on this PORTION of this site. When ever anybody has stated that they are in favor of your subjects being in their own segment, you argue against it. It has also been pointed out that there is a section specifically for the topics you requested. You are calling for a change in atmosphere for the site, and when a majority says we don't want it, you tell us we are wrong.

But then you state that you are not being combatative.

This claptrap above (Jenni's) is PRECISELY the reason I hate pseudo-political discussions, someone is always trying to tell you what to think and what you are. You have just answered your own question as to why there isn't much of it here.

Angela, you seem to be angered by my post. I'm sorry that you feel that way.

I'm not trying to tell you what to think. My last post was merely saying that what you DO think has an affect.

You ARE expressing your view PUBLICALLY, on a PUBLIC forum. That matters, at least to me. I do think that, in general, CD's are being left behind when it comes to trans-issues that are being discussed politically. I, for one, don't want to ignore that. Nor can I control how such issues are being discussed in the public realm. I just want a voice in such a discussion, and my post here is ultimately a call to arms - to get some support or recognising that we, us, crossdressers should have a say, or at least have our voice heard, in such a public debate.

You have instead chosen to see my post as an attack, a "spoil for an argument" between ourselves. I can't help that. But that does sadden me that you think that way.

My post has made one enemy. I'm just sorry that you feel that way. All I ever wanted to do was to open up a discussion that can speak for all of us, and our current standing in the very public, very topical, debate that is happening right now.

[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by AlleyKat

I'm confused about why it's so important that these matters are on this PORTION of this site. When ever anybody has stated that they are in favor of your subjects being in their own segment, you argue against it. It has also been pointed out that there is a section specifically for the topics you requested. You are calling for a change in atmosphere for the site, and when a majority says we don't want it, you tell us we are wrong.

But then you state that you are not being combatative.

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Who, exactly, have I said is wrong?

I was talking to a friend earlier about people not understanding some things, and just won't and that you just need to move on. I'm taking my advice and abandoning this thread, it's turning into the very thing we are arguing that we don't want.

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Originally Posted by jenni_xx

You, by definition, are helping no one.

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Well, Angela is helping herself to the best of her ability. Doesn't this count? :)

There's a children's book that my SO (who is a part of this community) has kept since childhood because its wonderfully philosophical message is deeply meaningful to him.

The book is "Frederick", about a mouse who is different from the other mice, but whose contributions are just as valuable. It's a lesson in accepting that we all contribute to our own, unique abilities.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Well, Angela is helping herself to the best of her ability. Doesn't this count? :)

There's a children's book that my SO (who is a part of this community) has kept since childhood because its wonderfully philosophical message is deeply meaningful to him.

The book is "Frederick", about a mouse who is different from the other mice, but whose contributions are just as valuable. It's a lesson in accepting that we all contribute to our own, unique abilities.

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Reine, does that message not work both ways?

I've expressed my view, said when I disagree (I've gone through my replies in this thread and not once have I dismissively said that anyone is wrong - the closest to this was when I said that I "completely disagree").

I've had a PM insinuating I'm a "colossal twat". I've said that I don't want this site not to discuss issues that are important to any individual (see my op). The overall point to this post is that I'm worried that cd's are getting left behind when it comes to the plethora or transgender issues that are abound in the media today. My over-riding point being that I want us to maintain a voice, have a say, in such.

Of course it counts that Angela is helping herself. Does it count for anything that I'm expressing my own concerns here in the hope that I can help myself also?

But this isn't just about me. It is about all of us. I don't wish to speak for all of us, but I would like to think that what I do say, as a member of this community, is at the very least something that is worth listening to. As it stands, I feel that I my voice means nothing, that I'm just being a "twat", a colossal one at that. My post here wasn't intended to ask everyone to stop talking about what THEY want to talk about. It was simply "I've heard this, I've heard that, and I want some back-up because I feel what I've heard isn't representative of my part in the transgender community.

Maybe I am Frederick. Maybe I am different from the other cd's here (the other mice). Using your analogy, does that make Frederick the mouse a twat who should "give it a rest"?

Ladies, gents, or whatever name you identify with, personal attacks only detract from the ideas you're trying to convey.

My (hopefully non-aggressive) comment is, no social movement, construction or organization is fully comprised of activists only. Lots of people support universal health care or the right to own guns (to mention two on opposite sides of the political spectrum) yet only a few participate actively of the political debates. It's human nature. Let those who only want to discuss nail polish hues live in peace.

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Originally Posted by Sky

Let those who only want to discuss nail polish hues live in peace.

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I'm not saying that those things shouldn't be discussed (as I said in my OP).

Just to be clear, I'm all for such discussions (I've created threads on the same things myself, and valued the feedback from such threads).

Again, this isn't an Either or Or scenario.

I do agree with the general premise of your post though. I actually don't think anyone on this thread has posted a reply that is actually aggressive (that was saved for PM's to myself).

I don't know what else to say, other than sorry that I misjudged this site. Sorry that the members of this site felt that I was making an attack on them. Sorry for raising an issue that is seemingly controversial. Sorry to anyone who I may have offended.

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Originally Posted by Sky

Let those who only want to discuss nail polish hues live in peace.

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I'm pretty sure that was an attempt at levity.

Final observation.

No one is saying theses things shouldn't be talked about. We are saying we don't want to talk about them here. Mainly because it introduces negativity and hurts cohesion.

For consideration on this point, we were not able to successfully discuss wether or not we could succefully host these discussions without feelings getting hurt.

Not casting blame, just stating fact.

Alley, no disrespect, but you joined this month, you're 29 posts in, and it seems that you've got a better handle on this site than I have, despite me being here since 2006 (although admittedly I'm hardly a frequent poster).

Anyway point taken on board. :)

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Originally Posted by jenni_xx

Reine, does that message not work both ways?

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Absolutely!

So in this thread it means that you voice your desire to speak of more political things (as you did), but at the same time acknowledge that it's OK if other members don't want to participate. And the members who do only dress at home or go out in public and do their own thing should acknowledge that there are some people in this forum who want to participate in the more political threads, and that's OK too.

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Originally Posted by jenni_xx

I've had a PM insinuating I'm a "colossal twat". I've said that I don't want this site not to discuss issues that are important to any individual (see my op). The overall point to this post is that I'm worried that cd's are getting left behind when it comes to the plethora or transgender issues that are abound in the media today. My over-riding point being that I want us to maintain a voice, have a say, in such.

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Well, that's unfortunate. People shouldn't call each other names when they have differences of opinion. Still, you are saying that you want "us" to "maintain a voice" (a common voice?) but some members don't feel the need for a common voice. So these people should be allowed to go out and do their own thing, without being judged by the people who want to be more political. And they shouldn't judge you for wanting to discuss some political things.

There is a middle ground, there always is.

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Originally Posted by jenni_xx

Maybe I am Frederick. Maybe I am different from the other cd's here (the other mice). Using your analogy, does that make Frederick the mouse a twat who should "give it a rest"?

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We're ALL Fredericks, no matter what we contribute. :)

And no one is a twat.

I do have to say that I prefer threads that are of a political or philosophical nature. As a GG I often find it hard to participate in the forum and have taken to not posting often. It's when I see posts that I think I can contribute to that I partake. I often have the feeling that I would love to see more discussion based threads of this nature. However, when I see a post that doesn't interest me, I just don't respond. This seems to me that it could go both ways.

I love the post about the little things. As someone who is recently exploring this thing, I find them immensely helpful.

I also love the support from everyone that covers the whole TG/CD spectrum. That are so many different ways of doing this but most people are accepting and inviting.

If I am reading it right the OP is pretty specifically speaking about CDs who want to be OUT. For that segment of the group I do think that some more thoughtful activist type discussion would be nice. I also DO feel that us CDs are being left behind. I have thought about how wonderful it is that transsexuals have gotten so much positive media representation. On the other hand, I don't see that for CDs.

Wouldn't it be great to have a CD character on a family sitcom? I don't think we are far from that but we aren't there yet(not that I know of or in my definition of a CD). There is also a big problem with violence against TGs. Couldn't we who fall under that umbrella rally around that flag discuss how to bring awareness to that situation.

Like I said, I kind of get the OP.

I have be a member for about 2 weeks, I am 50 not married (anymore, thank you God) straight and came to terms with myself about my feelings and fears. While I won't call myself a cross dresser because I am not cross dressing I am putting on the clothes of either Jonni Lin or Randy.
Saying all that, I just love this site, it fills all the questions that we may have and that we know we are not alone (at least tell they shut down the internet) and other people have the same type of feelings. I was on a lot of other site, mainly 'man' stuff in my 'man mode' before, I left them all because it was all about who was or had the most macho thing, #ucking society. Shit I forgot the main point I was thinking, oh well.
love and peace

I have read all the posts here and I would have been thrilled to death to have all this discussion going on back in my day. There was nothing,nothing at all to help us older ones out. Not even much in the libraries. Sure if you were in the city probably,but I grew up in a small rurall farming community. This has been a very informative sight for me and probably for the seniors as well.

I understand here why politics is an unappealing topic for most of you. You feel this compulsion to dress like a woman, and you just want some peace and some fun, an escape from a world that will strip you of at least some privilege if you are out. Further, because you can present as men, you feel you'd lose that privilege for nothing.

I get it, I really do. The same thoughts went through my head too.

What you need to think about, though, is that this past year, extreme social and religious conservatives lost on same sex marriage. They'll do their best to stop further gay rights advances, but they've lost on gays. They know it too.

So these folks are coming after trans people.

Many states have floated legislation to limit trans rights. My state, Texas tried 7 different anti-trans bills, the worst of which would've slapped us with a high fine and a year in jail for using the women's restroom. These bills failed - we stopped 'em in Texas. We've stopped 'em pretty much everywhere this year.

However, last month, Houston voters, overwhelmingly voted down an equal rights ordinance because it was called "a bathroom bill", by the right. Houston is the FOURTH largest city in the US. It has a huge LGBT population, and an out lesbian serving as mayor. This ordinance should have passed. It didn't because the opponents of it used a simple, but nasty slur against trans people: "No men in women's restrooms." The governor and lt. Governor called us rapists and pedophiles, bankrolling a nasty commercial showing a shadowy man confronting a little girl in a restroom.

They are going to bring this strategy to your town, unrolling LGBT friendly laws town by town.

One of the presidential candidates has vowed to remove the executive orders that Obama has put in place for trans people.

And all the failed anti-trans bills will be back next year, new and improved.

You can ignore this stuff, but you do so at your peril. It would not take much for some of these folks to pass laws that outlawed crossdressing, and effectively trans people. So go ahead and pretend this doesn't matter, but don't be surprised if you one day find yourself in a cell next to mine.

We are not talking about differing political views here. Some of these people are irrational.

And if you still don't take this seriously, consider that in Houston, the folks who defeated the equality ordinance used 1/3 the budget of the LGBT forces who supported the ordinance. That's right - we outspent them three to one, and they still kicked our asses. And folks, their war chest is way bigger than ours.

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Originally Posted by Meghan4now

Wow, Jenni, I think you raise a lot of issues and questions. I really don't see this forum being well equipped to address everything you mentioned in one fell swoop.

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That was pretty much my take on the OP. It comes across as an overwrought potpourri of impressions from media stories, issues that have seemingly been raised in the general culture but not fully developed or thought through, and more than a little incipient hostility and exasperation. I kept trying to catch my breath reading it. Perhaps a legal analogy will help explain: in California direct-democracy law, initiative measures (laws proposed by popular petition rather than originating in the legislature) have to deal with only one subject matter and cannot be omnibus measures (such as combining a property tax change with gun regulation). Closely related provisions pertaining to a single issue, yes, but only one subject matter per initiative.

The format of forums like this one is somewhat similar: A topic is raised for discussion. If it's not prohibited content, it goes up and draws whatever responses it draws, whether it's inherently trivial or profound, highly personal or of broadly general interest. The problem I have with the OP is is its breathtaking scope of matters that might seem to fit in relation to each other but are really quite separate, as if a broad net had been dragged through the media ocean and everything gender-related came up with the fish. It's difficult to respond meaningfully to such a scattershot OP because it asks too many questions in no particular order or logical scheme.

Yes, some radical feminists have strong negative opinions about some variations on the gender binary. Yes, heterosexual male, part-time crossdressers are different from transitioning transsexuals or non-op transgenders. And so on. But I don't really grasp the call of the OP question about being "left behind". Regardless of progress in the larger culture in the direction of greater diversity and tolerance of gender variance, there will always be biological males who are drawn to wearing traditionally female clothing but have no larger agenda around it and gingerly explore how big and public a deal they want to make of it, and that's the central focus here.:2c:

Not everyone has to be out and proud. Someone who just likes to wear dresses at home to relax does not need to be out about it, and in some cases really should not be. Some of us just like to wear the clothes and fashion and such, and it is natural some just want to talk about shoes and hosiery and whatnot.

An excellent post, Jenni. Not that I'm in total agreement, but your point was very well made.

As to the topics on here. I think we see the same (trivial to many of us) topics arise because there are new people arriving all the time, and to them they're asking the question/commenting in their own unique way. Sometimes it just feels good to have a place where it's OK to talk about it. It doesn't bother me. In fact I often wish that those small things excited me as much as it does the not-yet-so-jaded. I remember those times pretty fondly. Those of us who've been at this for a while and in particular those who've been on the forum for a while rarely participate just from disinterest. I sometimes participate when something strikes me. I'm not one to save up for the intellectual topics. In fact, given how I like to wind down in the evening I'd rather talk about short skirts and high heels than be pissed of at being a politically disenfranchised entity.

As far as activism goes, I'm no activist. Maybe it counts for something that I go out, try to look my best, and always go out of my way to treat people kindly and with respect. I buy things at the shops I visit, I tip well at restaurants, and help old people cross the street (well, maybe not). I don't/won't do outreach, visit schools or civic groups or lobby the legislature. I'm not sure you'd want me to speak for you, nor am I sure I'd want you speaking for me.

I think we sometimes take ourselves too seriously. I'm certain I don't deserve any special dispensation. If I were to be an activist I'd probably need to feel persecuted, or at least wronged. I have no expectation that the general public will ever understand me. I don't understand myself. I have spent a hell of a lot of time in public. I've been infrequently afraid. Probably no more often than a genetic woman. My truly negative experiences have been few. I've avoided places and circumstances where I predictably would be met with ridicule, hatred, and violence. I don't see trans activism softening those places much. Just maybe, indirectly, we'd soften the redneck view of us by having his wife come home and say "I had the nicest person come into the shop today...". I know that sound like a p---y way to go about it, but we'll never have that much effect by yelling at him or legislating acceptance.

We (those of us on this forum) do not have a unified voice. We all have one unifying thing, habit, need, desire, but we come at it from an infinite number of directions. As a group, our differences are greater than our similarities. We're cliquish and judgmental of one another. There are a few of us with Miss America looks, and a few who'd kick anyone's ass who would suggest they should shave their beard. There are a lot of points along that line, and at each of those points is someone who thinks their way is the right way, their ideas are the right ideas. Hardly a coalition. But maybe, just maybe, if we'd all sing a few bars of Alice's Restaurant... well, we know what they'll think if there's two of us (obscure, I know).

Jenni, I think your heart is in the right place on this. I hope you're not always this serious, though. I feel better when I wear panties under my male clothes at work. You should try it!

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Many states have floated legislation to limit trans rights. My state, Texas tried 7 different anti-trans bills, the worst of which would've slapped us with a high fine and a year in jail for using the women's restroom. These bills failed - we stopped 'em in Texas. We've stopped 'em pretty much everywhere this year.

However, last month, Houston voters, overwhelmingly voted down an equal rights ordinance because it was called "a bathroom bill", by the right. Houston is the FOURTH largest city in the US. It has a huge LGBT population, and an out lesbian serving as mayor. This ordinance should have passed. It didn't because the opponents of it used a simple, but nasty slur against trans people: "No men in women's restrooms." The governor and lt. Governor called us rapists and pedophiles, bankrolling a nasty commercial showing a shadowy man confronting a little girl in a restroom.

They are going to bring this strategy to your town, unrolling LGBT friendly laws town by town.

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They are trying to do that with a ballot initiative here in California. Some bunch of "Christians" from Texas is going around to all the evangelical churches here gathering signatures. But we are not going to let a bunch of carpetbaggers from Texas tell us how to run things here in Cali. Things have changed a little since the bad old days of Proposition 8.

To the OP, Jenni, FWIW, there are other places on the web that address just the concerns you listed, but they are different from this place. They lack the stability, the sense of community, and it gets depressing spending my time among a bunch of much younger transgenders who are transitioning at the speed of light compared to me because I am (successfully so far) trying to preserve a marriage and a career.

I am here because this is a stable community of folks who are here for the long term, and I am here because this is a fun place to be. I go to other places on the web to engage in activism. I am a member of the Transgender Law Network (as my male self) and I do engage in activism in the real world.

But not here. To me at least, this is a place to relax and have fun.

One of the strengths of this forum is the diversity of topics, which probably reflects the significant and wonderful diversity of our members. Topics range from requests for help, individual progress reports, favorite colors, work issues, to intense relationship and self-discovery issues. Most people seem to participate on this site for enjoyment. Many participate to escape, share dreams and reduce stress. I do not feel this site is a primary vehicle for advancement of political issues. Information sharing, education, support, learning, encouragement - yes. Promotion of political agendas - no. And the world is not going to pass us by because of what is discussed or not discussed here. Letting the world pass us by is a personal decision we individually make. There are many other venues and opportunities to voice our opinions and fight for our personal rights and issues that are important to us. That's what I do. And as already noted, there is also opportunity to engage in hot topic discussions, if we want to, but those topics usually have limited appeal and site life span.

Acceptance of one another and respect for each other's opinions are further strengths of this site. I am disappointed, however, when someone takes it upon themselves to directly criticize and diminish individuals and replies, as has occurred in this thread. I also have never seen anyone publically share a private message in this forum that another member sent them. What is shared privately should stay private, and problems reported to moderators.

Over the years I've had a post or two moved to and from one section to another because an administrator thought it was more appropriate elsewhere. There are many heady issues in other sections, such as "Loved One" or "Media." The format also limits access bu casual observers. I have to assume there are many out there reading those superficial issues you annotated and laughing their asses off over a beer or glass of wine.

I've also had a comment deleted once or twice because I absently used an incorrect pronoun. I saw in a prior post that jenni would prefer to have a male pronoun used for him. Yes, there are some on this site who are just plain ordinary cross dressers...men who like to wear the clothing of women for some reason that we do not know. There are a lot of gut wrenching posts of this site. Marriages destroyed. Ongoing marital disputes. Loss of friendships. Shunning by employers.

I read about Texas not being friendly. Move to Washington State and several of its more populated cities. The law protects gays, lesbians, transgenders and cross dressers. We're legal here. We're protected here! Yet, I like to keep my cross dressing in the closet because legal protection does not confer acceptance.

If you want to post about trying on a dress in a store or driving en femme, I'm here to listen.

And, if I want to read about heady stuff I just read two article from Good Housing about transgender boys and girls in one family, and, a husband who became a woman's wife. The heady and serious stuff is readily available.

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Originally Posted by Gabby6790

Wouldn't it be great to have a CD character on a family sitcom? I don't think we are far from that but we aren't there yet(not that I know of or in my definition of a CD). There is also a big problem with violence against TGs. Couldn't we who fall under that umbrella rally around that flag discuss how to bring awareness to that situation.

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They did that with Bosom Buddies years ago. They tried it again with Work It and it crashed and died.