Do you think there is an image in the minds of the normals who

Jennifer,

Not sure but... Dr. Frank-N-Furter looks awesome !

"I know it when I see it" is bullshit. Subjective. Just like saying "she is beautiful." Mr. Curry as Dr. Frank-N-Furter is hot! OMG I wish I could pull that look off. Now let's see where that goes...

Now the beautiful lady in picture three... No one would question her... However not everyone can pass as well as Jennifer. I know I couldn't, though I wish I could at times.

Imagine this aspect. There are women being attacked, sexually in Europe by many of the refugees because they are not in their burka. You hear of bullying where boys and girls being attacked at school, because they are different.... Can you imagine how a father or mother would feel if their TG son or daughter came home after one of these attacks? We all want equality, to be able to do, dress as we desire without being judged or ridiculed. Some hide behind the Bible or religion. Some behind redneck culture. Or gang mentality... But the threat is there and I don't believe it will go away anytime soon. and before I get a dozen messages... Yes I believe in God, and never would I believe that Jesus hates me because I wear women's clothes. We all have our beliefs. Just because I don't believe in what you believe in doesn't make me a bad person. I respect your beliefs please respect mine.

Okay off my soapbox...

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Michelle

Do not allow Hate mongers co-opt religeous difference as their tool. Do not fall into the us vs them trap. It has happened throughout history. Ireland, the mideast, Asia, France. It goes on and on. It has absolutely nothing to do with religeon per se. It is all manipulation of both sides to keep people occupied while rights and protections are stripped away, making it easier for a few elite to line their pocets.

It is easier to avoid an uprising if the masses are pitted against one another. And don't let your own faith be stolen from you, by those who reject you.

Boy, oh boy. What are the different arguments out there these days?

I can't stand minorities!:

One thing I continually hear that is driving me nuts is the rhetoric, "I'm tired of the majority having to suffer the laws pandering to the minorities!" How does that make sense? Growing up as one of the members of the conservative, white majority I clearly understood that I didn't need laws to protect my interests. The minorities need laws to protect them when the majority has no qualms infringing upon their basic rights rights due to disagreeing with a basic premise of who they are or what they represent. Bottom line, we live in a country that was founded on the belief that all men (women, too!) are created equal and have basic rights that are not to be infringed upon. People have come to this country in droves to escape suffering under the heel of the majority--namely protestant churches. We all need to remember that lest we become that ourselves.

I'd better NEVER see a transgendered person in the bathroom with me!:

I do hope that people realize they have been sharing restrooms with GLBT folks for their entire lives. I mean--they *have* to realize this. In many ways I think people see this as boiling down to a sexual attraction situation. I was an athlete in both high school and college, and I guarantee you I showered with plenty of gay men, some who might have taken a second look. Despite this, I never had an issue. There's just no way to easily solve this because--right or wrong--sexuality never has and never will be a black-and-white issue, thus laws written to treat it as a black-and-white issue aren't going to be fair.

This law isn't about transgendered people--it's about protecting our women and children!:

First, re-read the statement above. Second, gun activists ought to be cheering us on. After all, they are the most outspoken people on the planet when it comes to the government considering laws that would discriminate against law-abiding citizens due to criminal activities of others. How in the world is it fair to pass a law allowing criminal charges to be filed against a law-abiding citizen who just wants to use the restroom in peace? We already have laws against sexual predators--enforce them. Seriously, all a sexual predator has to do today is watch and wait until no one is in the women's restroom, go inside, sit in a stall and wait. And if they do walk right in the restroom as a man saying "I'm allowed to be in here!"? Well, if he peeks under a stall or tries to assault someone the fact that he "feels like a woman" doesn't make what he just did any less illegal. (And I've got to add this... have you see the discrete hidden cams anyone can buy today? I don't like using public restrooms AT ALL!).

Christians:

While I understand that a lot of the negative rhetoric about LGBT people stemmed from religious views, I think it would be a *huge* mistake for the LGBT world to not recognize the efforts made by some of the major protestant denominations (Methodist, Presbyterian and Episcopalian) that have openly protested HB2 in North Carolina. Many have even cancelled conventions that were to be held in NC as a result of HB2. I applaud anyone who, when confronted with new knowledge that opposes their views, takes the time and makes an effort to see if they should reconsider their stance. For an entire institution to do the same is tremendous, and I appreciate them standing up against those who would take rights affecting many in this forum.

I often wonder why many have come to believe that you buy into an idea 100% or you disagree 100%, but I feel we could make much better progress if everyone (especially political parties) wouldn't be so polarized. While I disagree with these so-called "bathroom laws", I will admit that I feel there are some good, thought-provoking points in some of their arguments; primarily some of the discussion on showers/locker rooms. As a parent, I wouldn't support a situation where the complete disrobing of a child of the opposite gender would occur. I feel that it would be inappropriate due to the maturity levels of those involved on both sides. At the same time, being forced to go into the locker room/showers with those of the same (birth) sex could be humiliating/hurtful to the transgender child. In such cases, I feel that a separate shower/locker facility would be appropriate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Meghan4now

It is easier to avoid an uprising if the masses are pitted against one another. And don't let your own faith be stolen from you, by those who reject you.

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This right here ... If we had a like button I'd be levitating it off the screen with my clicks right now.
So well said.

Also, if the illustrations on my fridge door from my nephew's Sunday school class coloring book are accurate, Jesus worse some pretty fruity tunics in his time. Suspect he may have been down for the cause.

Amber I'm conservative as are a lot of my friends and they don't have a problem with TG people.
I had a discussion today with 10 2nd amendment guys (gun types yes) that are friends and I asked well what do you guys think of HB2 in NC.
All 10 said I don't care who I pee next to and why should I?
I asked if they ever noticed a trans man in a guys bathroom and they said i don't know I never looked for one.
I asked the one female if she had ever seen a trans woman in a ladies room and she said yes I have seen them. I asked did she try anything? She said no she was very nice and quite attractive.
I said did you have a problem with her being in the ladies room and she said no of course not.

Y'know, in the tolerance thread there's lots of talk of lumping people together. I see a lot of it in this thread.

I agree with most of the others comments here Jen, however, what concerns me the most is this controversy give some bigots the idea that they have some kind of self-imposed enforcement authorities to regulate and then administer punishments.

I can see some girls being outed and then have a BF or Husband assault a girl upon exiting the restroom.

So, best case, use only a "family restroom" or at least a single occupant restroom when out.

Jennifer,

A survey from several years ago suggested around 1% of the people in the U.S. knew a transgender person. However, I'd bet real money that 80% had an opinion about and image of what a transgender person was. Where did they get those opinions and images? Movies, TV and other media, from newspapers to magazines. Do you remember who the trans people were years ago? They were Drag queens, Comic Relief or someone very disturbed and probably a serial killer. Christine Jorgensen and Renae Richards were accused of just seeking publicity after getting a "Sex Change" not "Gender Confirmation Surgery".

We are still on the steep side of the learning curve. Hell, most of us are still attempting to get a handle on what seems to be constantly changing terminology, so how can we expect anyone else to have a realistic view of who we are if we are still working on it ourselves. This is probably the biggest lesson from Caitlyn Jenner, she shows us how diverse the Trans community is and how we are still attempting to create anything close to a unified public image. And that just ain't gonna happen, but she has become a new face along with Jazz Jennings and the others who are stepping into the light.

But since the "media' is fixated on those who are in transition, it leaves the rest of us non-binary Trans folks up to the imaginations of those we encounter. Until crossdressers have a good role model that one is up for grabs and open to being used by those who espouse hate and fear for the unknown.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

My wife and I were having this very discussion. Basically, demand to see everyone's birth certificate. The breakdown would be immediate. Afterall, there is no enforcement rule nor avenue to figure out who to ask!

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Unfortunately this is not universal. There are 4 states (Idaho, Kansas, Ohio and Tennessee) that do not allow gender marker changes to birth certificates. Since other documents derive their information from the birth certificate, they would not reflect the result of gender affirmation. And besides, there will always be people who cannot, or will not, undergo surgeries for a number of reasons.

DeeAnn

Stepping out of the pink fog, I think it's pretty clear that middle conservative America has it's collective head in the sand, refusing to come out of the 1950's. We'll have to see exactly where we stand after the fall elections, but I think we already have a good idea of how many people still think we're sexual deviants just waiting to pounce on their children. If close to half the population supports this lunacy, that's a whole lot of people that still believe we're some kind of mentally damaged danger to society. Yet, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

They say they don't want this:
Attachment 261331

But they don't want you to think about that guy, because, uh, that hits a little too close to how most of the real predators look!

So they tell you they want to avoid this:
Attachment 261332 Attachment 261333
Obviously some of them fake transgenders, right y'all?

But what they really mean is:
Attachment 261334

And they'll give people like this a pass:
Attachment 261330
Oh they'll still be breaking the law unless their documentation is changed, but as the people who write these bills say, with a sly wink, who'd ever know to report them?

The real aim of all this legislation is to criminalize our life in public - it has nothing to do with public safety. Of course, they also know that all the legislation, as written, is really unenforceable. A birth certificate is a terrible identity document. So really the purpose of this is to harass us and make us afraid to be in public, incite violence against us, and to really score political points. But hey, if they can actually pull this off and dehumanize us and get the populace used to that, then they can go after the gay and lesbian folks next.

BTW, I oppose *any* ID requirements for bathroom usage. People should use the best fit restroom for their gender identity / presentation / comfort. People who misbehave and commit crimes in restrooms should be arrested and prosecuted, not innocent trans people. Conversations about your private medical history are strictly not negotiable - no way we should agree to that! If they really wanted to make women and children safe from predators they should, instead:
1. Teach men that RAPE IS NOT OK! Seriously, this is a thing that needs to be done. Unreal, huh?
2. Arrest and convict more than 2% of the people (mostly men) who commit sexual assaults. No statute of limitations would be a good start... (Yes, the stats are really that low).

Lots of great comments on here, but I did want to reply to Sarah's post.

I think Sarah has a **great** point here. I have been having a somewhat heated discussion with a female friend of mine about this issue. We bantered back-and-forth for a couple of days and I was exhausted. I was ready to quit and just told her, "I hope you realize that you've likely shared the bathroom with a TG several times in your life, and it obviously was uneventful." And her reply was, "Seriously? Do you really think that I can't tell a drag queen from a real woman?" Wait... what??? Drag Queen? WHO was talking about drag queens???? Even friends of mine that I feel are enlightened are sometimes surprisingly oblivious to the diversity within the whole gender "realm". How do we educate them? They have to *want* to learn more about it, which is undoubtedly an uphill battle.

I think this is just another example of election year politics. There always seems to be an issue that's pushed to get conservative voters to the polls, and from what I've seen in the past, it's been quite successful. I'm not blaming any particular party; there are conservatives in all of them.