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The label "man" is really innaccurate for me. "Man" implies that I am at one end of the gender binary as well as issues of patriarchy, machismo, and all that. When I dress I am feminine. I have no interest in being a man at least in the classical sense.
Physically I am undeniably male, possessing a Y-chromosome.
Socially I was raised a son, a brother from someone else's mother, and only recently an uncle. Whether I end up a father is another story. I doubt it both ways.
I 'earned my manhood' (an abstract, almost vapid notion) in conscription, becoming one of many enlisted men - a man in the "other ranks" sense.
For now, I still respond to 'dude'/'bro'/'man' because that is how I appear to those who know me.
Incidentally, I am quite a car geek, although that won't change regardless of how I present, or even if I find transition the most ideal option. I do not take kindly to the heavily fetishised image of 'car girls', but then again I don't take kindly either to the conduct of many 'car guys' either.
Lucy,
From my age group being born male meant doing the thing society expected of you, having a girlfriend , getting married, buying a house and having a family, hopefully get a reasonable job. To me eventually it's a straight jacket I want to shake off, my Cding started at 8-9 years and was a continuous feeling I had to live with along side my male life .
I don't hate the male life I've lead but I know there's part on my life I've missed and now I'm trying to live it, I enjoy being dressed as a woman as much if not more now and if I had separated I would have modelled my life around living dressed .
To me now being a man means doing certain things I no longer have an interest in , my female side is far more appealing , I've done my duty as a man now I want to enjoy the other side I've discovered.
LOL, my answer was more general, not related with gender. Maybe it was the answer to "what does being a human mean to you?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy23
I think the opposite. Men build the civilization, it has many flaws, but if the species has certain level of civilization is thanks to men.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy23
This is a fascinating thread and something I've been pondering for years. To be honest, it's because I'm not sure I've ever felt like a man. And I guess it's because of what society and the constructs that have conveyed (up until recently) that a man is tall, strong, dominant, unemotional, unwavering, strict, and a whole host of other adjectives that describe what many might ascribe to the "alpha male". So for that I don't feel like a man in the way most of society views a man.
Now I am most certainly male. I have broad shoulders. I am relatively strong for my short stature. I have facial hair and a somewhat low, booming voice. But those things simply make me male, not necessarily a "man".
I think the definition of what being a man is, is a social construct and as such changes with generations. The idea of what a man was in the 40s is quite different from what was thought of in the 80s and an even greater contrast from what we see from millenials who are in their early 20s and what their idea of what a man is.
I did a search on "what does it mean to be a man" and got some interesting articles that will give some food for thought especially how it relates to dressing. However, I know Lucy's original post asked for our opinion by asking:
1 yes, it does but the meaning of a man and male are two different things to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy23
2 I think society's expectations are a construct and place an unusually difficult gauntlet to traverse without becoming an asshole in the process.
3 I think being a male provides ease and privilege that women don't have. In that regard it is both a hinderance and gift.
4 Yes, there is much joy my life as male.
5 Yes, my life is pretty bland but I don't think it has anything to do with being male. I think it has to do with being an accountant.
Great responses on this thread. I am amazed, and learning a lot.
Looking back (below) on my own thread, I got the Question all wrong. It wasn't about what makes ME a man, IMO. It was about the concept of Manhood and masculinity.
Need to think about this even DEEPER. Ignore my other self descriptive response (I'll leave it up). I need a do-over.
I'll get back with you.
Thanks and hugs. Great question.
Not necessarily. The original gist of the question was aimed at you and the people here as well. The fact that our ideas, experiences (flying carrier jets? wow!) and lives are reflected with some general idea of what it feels like being a man is probably natural. Each of us have something to share; there are as many definitions of manhood and masculinity as there are men. Awaiting your new insights!Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneD
My bad, what else can I say. The perks of having this conversation over the internet? :) And of course it has flaws. What doesn't. And there are men who try their damnedest to make the world better, risk their lives protecting others or take hard jobs to earn the bread. But somehow this fact is taken for granted or gets overshadowed by all the bad. Anyway, my two cents :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Valery L
From what I have read over the years many have said in one way or another what there is a difference between man and male. As in to become a man you have to do something (hence the initiation rituals in the past), that you have to gain masculinity. It looks like languages themselves somehow reflect that too in certain ways - English and my native language certainly do - the common phrase "man up" comes to mind. Sue, have you heard about the website called Art of Manliness? And what have you learned from the articles?Quote:
Originally Posted by aBoyNamedSue
I work in the media too, and especially living in Portland I see first hand feminists who take feminism too far and practically are anti-male bigots, which fuel the fire of the sentiments and attitudes you listed above. Sadly that brand of feminism is starting to leak a bit and become a bit too mainstream. I have no problem with feminists, but once you take it to the level of basically becoming a male hater and sexist against men, you have gone too far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy23
Well, like many mentioned above, I also enjoyed my maleness, as well as my femaleness. I'm proud of my handyman-side and my love of cars and tinkering with them, but also love how detailed I can get about doing my make-up, and getting completely into my different female looks with everything that requires from the panties to the earrings. I love these "both of me's". Sometimes I think we aren't as much crossdressers as we are tomboys.
However all of this gender talk about where the lines end and begin often gives me a bit of a headache, because I (we) have been living it so long, and honestly when I start reading them I feel a certain degree of sadness.
I think in heaven there is no gender, and the thought of that seems beautiful.
The responsibilities of a father figure are my life right now. I am busy all day, every day, with interactions with many people, most of them younger. My girl cave is the occasional, needed break from this.
A little foolishness now and then is treasured by the wisest men. ~Willy Wonka
Right there is the answer. If I'm doing something around the house, cooking or relaxing, at most I'm still a guy in a dress. When I rebuilt the rear axle for my wife's SUV for some of it I was a guy in leggings. For me, it's not about being something I'm not. Clothes don't make a man, and they don't make a man a woman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurana
I love both sides equally. My wife and daughters love me as a man as much as they love me as a woman. However, I keep it at home and am good with it. I think the main thing our loved ones are worried the most about it being discovered. We have to take care of that and regardless of what we want, we have to realize that it's all about them too. Find a balance and go with what works for everyone around you who knows and protects you.
I'm a man who likes to indulge in things reserved for women. Most of the things that really matter in my life would not be that same if I were acting female most of the time. I could not be a husband and father in the same way which would take something away from me and my family. My job as and engineer wouldn't be the same (its sad and everyone I know is well intention ed but their aren't an equal number of female engineers so female interests that bond coworkers are more rare.) My martial arts hobby would be different. saddly people don't always respond the same way to female students and instructors.
I like dresses makup perfume a good Rom com shopping but I also like a lot of things in my male life that would be different and at least different if I were female most of the time.
I appear once again to be an outlier here.
Iv heard comments on "Im an Alpha male". Are you? Seriously are you?
That isnt about flexing an arm once in a while. It is taking control. Taking control and possibly deciding someone else's life future.
If the company needs to cut someone... who do you choose? Your buddy that you shoot pool with, or that awkward immigrant that you dont really like that much? Who do you choose?
I have made that decision more times than I would like to. Once was enough. Several dozens later I still hate it.
How did I get to the position I am now? Honestly? Supporting and suppressing my peers at the same time and not being obvious about it. Brutally attacking "some" above me and saying "that will never work"... then forwarding the evidence to those over them when it didnt.
Alpha males are shit people. Im an utter shit at work. When I hear noises that "this person will resign if they have to work under you" I just hear VICTORY. Then I force them. I make it happen. If they leave.. they leave. I dont really care what they do or say of me.
But if they come to me and ask for a 10 minute... they get it. If they have problems outside of work - even if that will affect their work... I am sympathetic. We all have issues out of work. I will protect anyone that needs a management ear. You need to come in late after dropping your kids off... come in late. You also need to leave early to collect them? ... well do 2 hours on sunday remotly. Go now and I sanction it.
Being Alpha is not about beating your chest all day.
It's mostly about being trusted to make the right decision once youv got there.
Hi Lucy. Yes, I HAVE heard of the Art of Manliness website. It's very, very cool. I came across it a few years ago but didn't keep up with it after a few months. I remember at the time that I loved it and when going back to look at it, I remember why. It discusses things about being manly without being completely misogynistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy23
And there in lies the rub about manliness and the millennials' changing definition of what manliness is. How does a male be manly without being an affront to women? I mean, those qualities and behaviors that Exris described are not exclusive to alpha males or men. Women can exhibit those traits as well. It just makes them just as much of an asshole as if a man does it.
With that in mind, I came across an article that, after the PhD psychologist offered her analysis, ended with the question, "Are men being feminized, or are they being humanized?" I think it's a valid question especially if one accepts the idea that masculinity or femininity are social constructs.
Hi
I consider myself as a feminine male, so to me and me only that isn't a man. A man to me would never let himself wear women's clothing. I said me I believe this. I think that having a penis still makes me male and having breasts slightly changes that. I'm feminine as I have been on HRT for going on three years. I believe that a man will perform as a man. By perform I mean with a woman sexually. Crossdressers do that all the time. How I feel is not the way all should feel I am a transgendered person. That means I am different. No I am no longer a man no matter how as a man I look through my make up. I must Identify as a trans woman all that see me. To myself I am a feminine male.
Interesting thread, for me as a gender fluid person his whole life, I never felt like a full man. was raised that way and I beat to my own drum my whole life trying to figure myself out. I am male a feminine male but my feminine side is far better than my male side and I seem to tick off my SO when totally male for a while. Yeah the male stuff make one an a-hole and well my fem side is caring and nurturing as well as other good attributes. MY male side does have some good attributes such as compassion, but that might be coming from my female side. so it is slowly blending into one. But I bet the feminine side wins.
That is really a good question, one to which I still don't have an answer. But at least I have some guideposts, and the site has provided some of them - especially their amazing Semper Virilis longform or articles on what it truly means to be an alpha or discussing manliness in relation to historical figures. With that said, I found their articles on dating truly something different than what the pick-up scene offered, to which the term deservedness comes to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by aBoyNamedSue
I think that being affront to women is at least partially related to those ideas the PUAs spread. I really don't know about the american dating scene (got some second hand opinions from blogs), but around here it's starting to get along the lines of showing "who's the boss", giving the vibe of higher status, do this to diminish her status, etc... and without any of those, you are considered less of man... And maybe even the society if there is only one narrow definition of masculinity.
I would very much like to read that article. Could you provide a link?
Could elaborate more on why you say that male stuff make one an asshole?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
Here ya go.
Are men being feminized or humanized?
I'll answer the questions in order they are posed, so as to avoid several quote tags.
1: Yes, it means a lot to me. Lots of things go into how I would define a "man." Putting food on the table for family, being able to fight, etc.
2: Learned not to say anything about that on here...
3: Hindrance.
4: There is no joy in any of my lives.
5: Very bland.
To me, being a man means...
- I have to register with Selective Service at the age of 18 so I get to be involuntarily drafted to fight & possibly die for this country -- if I don't register, I could get thrown in prison or fined $250K, as well as lose access to a whole bunch of programs & benefits such as financial aid, job training & federal employment;
- I'm way more likely to get injured or die in combat;
- I'm way more likely to get injured or die on the job;
- I'm way more likely to get screwed over in divorce court;
- I'm way more likely to lose custody of my children;
- I'm way more likely to be homeless;
- I'm way more likely to die young;
- I'm way more likely to commit suicide;
- I'm way more likely to have to serve a much longer prison sentence for the same exact crime;
- I'm way more likely for the police to side against me in any kind of situation where they're summoned, even if under false pretenses;
- Half the population thinks I'm a potential kidnapper, rapist, pedophile & murderer, and as such, am immediately & automatically treated as all of those, denying me even a simple everyday conversation as a normal human being
- I'm that much less likely to graduate from high school, to go to college, or to get a degree, simply because of what I have between my legs;
- I have no say in whether or not I want my child to be aborted, or to be put up for adoption, or to raise it myself.
I could keep going on & on about how great it is to being a man, but I think I'll stop for now, thanks.
The question is:
Does being a man (male) mean anything to you? What about the society's expectations? Is it a hindrance or a gift? Can you say that there is joy in your male life? Is your life bland? Please, feel free to share anything related that comes to your mind.
My answers are:
Sure, being a man is who I am. It means I mostly do things men are expected to do. I enjoy who I am as a man.
It appears to me that societies expectations for men have evolved to a point where being rough and tumble or macho is not the only mold for a man. There are roles that men play in todays society that are perceived to be only male but with time those roles seem to be becoming blurred. Being a man for me is being a good person and being a male role model. Tough when needed and empathic when required.
I do not believe being a man is a hindrance, we are one part of a two part system to maintain the human species. Being male is no more a gift than being female.
I do find joy in my life. I am blessed with a great wife, family and friends. Life is a sign wave where some times are better than others. Being male does not influence my being happy or not. I am pretty happy as male. (with an occasional venture into crossdressing)
My life is bland at times and at other times it has been anything but bland. Life presents lots of challenges and opportunities I doubt there is anyone who has a perfect life. Both genders experience the good and bad times. Your gender does not define if you are a good person.
Other stuff:
Being male has perks: I can pee standing up. I never had to experience a period (I understand that is not a fun experience).
I believe that there are people who suffer with gender identity issues that are truly significant (I am not among those). I can only try to understand what they experience. That being said. I believe that gender does not define if you are a good person or not.
I guess I am only like a few on here, I would say I am 60/40 male female. I like being a man , dressing in those clothes suites pants jeans jersey etc, I love playing ball with my son and coaching his teams, I love women and always liked to chase them and now married love being with a women. I also have always had this female side, both in my personality, thought process and especially in the bedroom. I am also both in there but love to dress, feel sexy , vulnerable and complete. I could not be one without the other.
To me its someone who isn't true me.
Being a man is so wonderful when you are together with a woman you love and when you make love to her.
The rest of the time, I love expressing myself as the woman inside me.