Why The Least Accepted ???

in deebra's defense- I don't think it useful to speculate on people's motives here- it is guesswork and criticizing them is discouraging to sharing.

The forum is very repetitive in terms of the types of posts, and this particular question comes up all the time. it comes up over and over because we CDs know deep in our hearts that it is not a problem, yet everyone around us [IRL not here on the forum] seems to be saying it is one. especially the parental authority figures deep in our past who still hold sway over us in so many ways.

Those of us who break out of the closet and just do it anyway find out it really isn't a big problem most of the time. But if you can't get closer to the door of your closet you are like a bird in a cage hopping around and wanting out, and wondering why you are locked in. Encouraging the bird to notice the lock is open, to push open the door and come out, is a whole lot more friendly and might even help them break the cycle of wishing and fearful retreat.

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Originally Posted by phili

>>SNIP<<
The forum is very repetitive in terms of the types of posts, and this particular question comes up all the time. it comes up over and over because we CDs know deep in our hearts that it is not a problem, yet everyone around us [IRL not here on the forum] seems to be saying it is one. especially the parental authority figures deep in our past who still hold sway over us in so many ways.

>>SNIP<<

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Mods, I know that this is quoting the person directly above, but this is the point I wish to address, please don't delete, otherwise my response will make no sense!

philli, in my experience, it isn't 'the people around us', but ourselves that create the problem.

If one goes out, dressed, yet acts like a guilty party, then yes, they will draw attention, and yes, suspicion.

If one goes to the market, in an evening gown, stripper heels, and a tiara, yes, one will draw attention to oneself. See above for the result.

If one feels guilty, while presenting as the opposite gender; if one feels awkward in one's presentation, then yes, one will draw attention and criticism. See above for the result

If one enters a restroom, acting like an intruder, then yes, one draws attention to ones self. Again, see above.

BUT, if one acts like they belong; if one acts like they are who they are presenting as; if one doesn't look at everyone else with prejudicial eyes, and just 'is', then many of these problems disappear.

is this a golden rule? No, there will always be those that are opposed to our existence.
But, the trick is to give "THEM" as little ammunition as possible.

Gay and lesbian people, and now, increasingly, TG people are more easily accepted because the perception, finally, is that these things are not choices. CDing is still very much seen as a choice us men make. How many of us have SOs who wish we'd simply choose to stick to male attire? We're less aceepted because we're perceived to be making a choice to reject conformity. We know differently but even we frequently struggle with articulating why it should matter since it's 'just clothes'.

I would also agree with Jean about issues of visibility.

And that's before we get onto the common perception of CDing being a fetish. It'd be the same as saying 'why do gimps get a hard time in public?'. Well, because most consider matters of sexuality something for behind closed doors. Expecting the public to understand those of us for whom CDing isn't a fetish is too fine a distinction for many.

@roberta I can't wholeheartedly agree that men are more valued than women. It's just not that simple. Men do more massively many more of the dangerous jobs. Clearly our health isn't particularly valued otherwise prostate cancer wouldn't be so woefully underfunded. Likewise our mental health. When male suicide outstrips female 3-1 on both sides of the Atlantic something is wrong.
Men are horrendously undervalued as caregivers also. How 'optional: are fathers now?
This is not, of course, to suggest that there are massive inequalities affecting women. Nor that those most valued by society aren't way too often men. But that isn't the same as saying men are simply more valued. IMHO

Let's stick to the SUBJECT/QUESTION. Read my first and last sentence. To put it bluntly if a man or woman sees a man wearing girl jeans why do they think something is wrong with him, I wear girl jeans because they are thinner, more comfortable, fit my body and I like how I look in them. Why shouldn't they just see them as jeans, my choice. Same place, a man and woman see two women that are clearly lesbians they have no problem with them, same for two men clearly gay, but me wearing embellished girl jeans they do??? And I read all the arguments about protectors, less a man, etc., B.S. on that, we are talking about just clothes and the right to wear what you want without being criticized. My choice to wear what ever style clothes I choose should be accepted in this day and time as just normal period.

Now let me address something else. I do not have to post a pic to put out a subject for discussion, don't assume it's about me. Quite trying to psycho analyze me, you know very little about me and what you think you know is wrong 100%. Tracci I could care less whether you or anybody else is gay or whatever, get over it. Many just can't wait to criticize Deebra but are afraid to post a subject for discussion, discuss the subject, not Deebra.

Suzanne, #24....Very Nice.

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Originally Posted by abbiedrake

And that's before we get onto the common perception of CDing being a fetish. It'd be the same as saying 'why do gimps get a hard time in public?'. Well, because most consider matters of sexuality something for behind closed doors. Expecting the public to understand those of us for whom CDing isn't a fetish is too fine a distinction for many.

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This is why we must go out and showto the people crossdressing is not a matters of sexuality/fetish. How ? By living, simply.

Sure, it need a lot of courage, but it is worth it :)

Deebra what I meant was you have the issue with you wearing womens jeans.Just wear what you want and don't worry about what others think.
In my experience of wearing nothing but womens jeans since 2007 it has not been a problem for me.
Even with my more testosterone driven male friends 99% of them have never said a word or asked if I was wearing womens jeans even if it is obvious I was.
I wear embellished womens jeans a lot of the time and they have only seen me wearing womens jeans the whole time I have know them.They know I am gay too and that has not been a problem.
This group has accepted me as I am and they are primarily very manly men or outdoorsy types some would call them.
My point is what you wear doesn't matter to most people as long as you are a good person.

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Originally Posted by deebra

To put it bluntly if a man or woman sees a man wearing girl jeans why do they think something is wrong with him, I wear girl jeans because they are thinner, more comfortable, fit my body and I like how I look in them. Why shouldn't they just see them as jeans, my choice. Same place, a man and woman see two women that are clearly lesbians they have no problem with them, same for two men clearly gay, but me wearing embellished girl jeans they do??? And I read all the arguments about protectors, less a man, etc., B.S. on that, we are talking about just clothes and the right to wear what you want without being criticized. My choice to wear what ever style clothes I choose should be accepted in this day and time as just normal period.

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The fact is you should be accepted no matter what you wear. However the world does not see things that way depending on where you live.
I remember punk rockers getting abuse for what they wore. This is not new for society. Unfortunately acceptance is not automatic.

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Now let me address something else. I do not have to post a pic to put out a subject for discussion, don't assume it's about me. Quite trying to psycho analyze me, you know very little about me and what you think you know is wrong 100%. Tracci I could care less whether you or anybody else is gay or whatever, get over it. Many just can't wait to criticize Deebra but are afraid to post a subject for discussion, discuss the subject, not Deebra.

Suzanne, #24....Very Nice.

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Anyone commenting can only judge you on the information provided and yes they can be completely wrong.

Deebra,
Natuarlly it's your choice whether you post a picture or not, in the past you've admitted you didnt know how but are you now saying you choose not to . Would it not be a whole lot easier if you did and then much of these debates you keep raising would be put to bed .

At the moment we keep getting a contradictory message , you tell us you look great and very convincing and then go on to complain about how bitchy some people are over the clothes you wear .

We all have the right to wear anything we choose but at the same time have to consider the message they put across , Di suggests it might be your location but it often comes down to the personality of the person coupled with the way they present themselves . I thought my new home town would be a tough nut to crack I've been pleasantly surprised .

The reason is simple.....

Men are considered the strong sex ....the leaders in most societies .
However woman are considered the weaker sex... the followers in societies........ the followers of men .

So, a woman who emulates a man in dress is considered a step up for them.

However, a man emulating a woman in dress is considered a step down for them.
So there must be something wrong with them to choose a "step down" .

No member is required to post a photo. It’s an individual choice.

Deebra, my SO has experienced mostly positive reactions when out dressed. He smiles a lot, is friendly, and engages people in conversations. I hope you will have positive interactions in the future and forget about what others think. Your choice how you want to present yourself.

What Char said.
/thread

Tracci there you go again your first sentence in thread 31, targeting deebra; the post and thread is not about deebra, it's just a question why society doesn't accept a man's right to wear what he wants. Society is wrong on this so I asked the question. It's hard to understand how they have accepted so many changes but not this. Few on here REALLY READ what's in the posts and threads and directly answer the topic. They apparently fast read the post and then give their opinion on not the subject. My post and thread are good, very good as a matter of fact, I stand by them, read them for exactly what they are and answer only THE topic.

I have read all of the previous posts in this thread and find the question very interesting. In some cultures crossdressing is acceptable (e.g. Berdache in North American Indians - seen as ‘two-spirit’, and Kathoeys in Thailand - ladyboys), but not in most societies. Why is this? I do not know, but think it is related to the cultures we grow up in.

OK deebra I thought maybe the reason you have a hard time understanding this is because you had not accepted yourself.
Sorry I assumed you were talking about how people treat you when you are out and about.
Its an easy mistake to make sometime because a lot of threads deal with how people are treated in public.
I see what you are doing, purposely misspelling my name every time.

Deebra,
So now you're talking about a generalisation and not you specifically , you confuse the issue by talking about your own presentation whenever you ask a question .

The answer still comes back to how you act and present yourself . Maybe you should look at the question from another angle , if you see a GG dressed in a more provacative way does it not make you take a second look , I could give many examples of what might take a second look , now imagine a man in the same situation of course he will get a second look and possibly more so because he's the wrong gender to dress that way . It's only human nature that we have a tolerance level , outside that we will react ,some more than others .

The question is does the person go out to blend in or integrate as I call it or do they go out to make a statement ? If you wish to make a statement then you have to accept the good and bad reactions . I feel you can try and educate people all you like but people will never understand beyond a certain level .

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Originally Posted by deebra

>>SNIP<<
Just wondering why and I know we are a very small percentage but we hurt no one, why the least accepted?

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Perhaps the reason is that we do not fit into neatly labeled boxes.
The types of people you mentioned: Gays, Lesbians, Asexuals, all have to relate to sexual preferences.
A lesbian is still a lesbian, no matter what she wears. The same for gays, and asexuals.

However, a crossdressers presentation may have absolutely zero to do with that persons sexual identity, or preferences.

We have straight, bi, and homosexual crossdressers. We have transgendered men and women who present as their true gender. Transgendered people may also be straight, gay, lesbian, or asexual.

Further, and not to sound condescending or dismissive, we have MIADS, drag queens, drag kings, cosplayers, androgynous, gender fluid, non-binary, and gender queer labels being tossed about to add to the confusion. And the fact that so many of 'our kind', will flip the flick out if they are misgendered, creates a potential for conflict.

For example: A man enters a shop, dressed in female sneakers, jeans, and a top. No make up, no wig, no forms and 2 days growth of beard. The clerk faces a dilemma: address this customer as "Miss"? or "sir"? In today's hair-trigger "I'm offended" atmosphere, there is a 50/50 chance that the clerk will misgender the customer.

The human species prefers to be able to classify each other with neat, tidy labels. "He's a Republican", "She is a Democrat", "They are Muslim", "We are Christian".
It confuses and bewilders people when they cannot slap a convenient, over-simplified label on other people. Now, they actually have to put some effort into figuring out where on the flow chart you fit.

In our society, we don't want to take the time to learn about other people, other ways of thinking, other cultures. It is so much easier to fall back on our preconceived notions of what 'the other' is like.


Me, I am a talker, I will talk to any and everyone, I love to listen to people tell me their viewpoints.

I had a lovely chat with a store clerk one evening, after she commented on my boots. I finally, during the convo, asked her what she thought regarding me, having seen me in both boy & girl modes. She said, "When you come in dressed as a man, I see a man. But when you come in dressed as a woman, I see a woman."

I was pleased to hear that, and awed by her simple acceptance.

So, Deebra, I have to ask, why are your experiences so vastly different to mine?

@jodie You make a good point about the labels. The urge to belong is hardwired into us. It's strength in numbers. It's having more power to acquire.
But belonging is ALWAYS predicated on there being people who are 'other'. And that's when we get conflict.
We're really struggling to ditch the programming that prejudices us. For my any distinction more granular than simple 'HUMAN' is gonna be grounds for conflict.
We've got to transcend it.

@abbie, I agree. The place I work at is very republic dominated, and I do not discuss politics there. When pressed as to which party I belong to, I tell them I am an Anarchistic Monarchist, I want to be King (Queen actually, but they are conservative Republicans), but no one has to listen to me. I just want the crown (and the gown!)
:D

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

Has anyone one given a thought that maybe deebra has a homophobic streak running thru her and she has a hard time justifying what she is doing?

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I believe that Deebra is just frustrated with her situation in life. It's no surprise, really, because I'm sure a lot of us have moments when we feel burdened by how the world treats us, views us, and all the problems inherent in being a crossdresser, TG or TS person. Although we try to make the best of it, there are still always going to be difficulties which we would not have to deal with if we didn't have these desires to be what society doesn't want us to be. Some days are good, others, terrible. And for some, venting helps.

Vent away, deebra. Most of us understand.