Makeover??? She can't even deal with the eyebrows!!!

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Originally Posted by ChristineRenee

:mad: I understand your point Tracie and the "collaborate don't compromise" comment too. I feel compelled to say some things now which may not go over too well with some of you in the forum here so be advised in advance.

I have been a CD, now TG as well, for 41 years since the age of 12. I have known my wife for 12 years. I was upfront about my being a CD from the beginning...I told her about it when we were still dating. She agreed to marry me knowing this. Even when I realized that I was TG and wanted to go on HRT I made sure she knew about it even though I know she wasn't happy about it, understandibly enough. I guess what I am leading up to is this: how long do I have to keep up this "facade" of projecting an image both to my wife and the general public that I am a REAL MAN, by THEIR definition of the same? I have been playing an actor playing a role for almost all of my life. Is this to go on indefinitely just because my wife can't come to terms with the fact that the man she thought she married is really a woman inside? Have I been totally unreasonable here? I have made every effort since 1993 when we first got together to keep who I really am under wraps so as not to cause her problems either with her career, or her family and friends. But what about me? When am I ever gonna be allowed to be who I really am....ME....CHRISTINE? Why is my wife allowed to define the parameters of just who I will be in the outside world....who gave her that kind of dictatorial authority? I know I didn't. I didn't marry her because I wanted someone to boss me around and make decisions for me 24/7. I lived very capably on my own from the time I was 20 until I married her at 43. I didn't HAVE to get married either. I married her because I fell in love, didn't want to spend the rest of my life alone, and thought I was marrying a very compassionate and good hearted woman who understood what I was all about and was accepting of it. So tell me...what have I done wrong here? Who is the one who is really being hurt and their total existence as a human being being affected here?

It's one thing to be not be accepted for who you are by society...but it's totally another thing to not be accepted by the person in your life that you need, and expect, to have accept you and that is your spouse.

All things considered at this point, I think that if I had known back then in 1993 when we got engaged that her attitude toward me (Christine) was going to be what it is...I probably never would have asked her to marry me. I probably wouldn't have bothered putting us both through this emotional pressure cooker. I'm not sure anymore that collaboration is even possible until she stops denying to herself that I am really a woman inside and not a man. I am comfortable with who and what I am. What I am NOT comfortable at this stage of my life is...after 41 years of "play acting"...to continue to allow both society and HER to define just who and what I am on THEIR terms. Dammit...this is MY LIFE that we are talking about here...NOT THEIRS!

I'm not soliciting responses here necessarily...I just wanted all of you to know how I feel about this right now.

Thanks for letting me vent and rant here.

Love to you all,
Christine:(

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My Chrissie Bear,

You know my feelings about this and I will share them with all tomorrow. It's already late and I am already upset about this...
But you know I can't keep my mouth shut...
She married you with full knowledge of Christine, 11 years ago. I know this to be a fact...

Though some here may not understand fully, they are totally free to express their feelings, I too have the same right. I just wish I have the energy to do it now, but I promise, I will do it, like first thing in the morning, after I dropped the kids at school.


Chrissie Bear...
She, nor anyone else, has right to hurt, insult, demoralize , humitiate, or repress you in any way..
Sue went into this with both eyes open, it is not your fault, that after 12 years, she decided to close them.

Know you are never alone...
Lots of Love.
Your Momma Bear
;)
Pattie

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Originally Posted by Tamara-GG

Sorry.... it's a long one

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if that was the case maybe she wouldn't be having such a problemo hmm???

Thank you Olivia...looks like we virtually told each other's life stories here. I think my wife wanted to get married again more than anything and is probably why she didn't appear to have a problem with me being a CD. I wasn't Mr. Right...I was Mr. Right Now!

I don't know where this is all headed. I do know there will be more serious discussion...when I am ready to talk, that is. I am not angry as much as I am hurt, and disappointed in my wife's overall attitude about this. I know exactly where you are coming from in your post and I think you understand my situation as well. No need to elaborate or go into a lot of detail here.


I'm not seeking sympathy here...maybe a little understanding and support. I feel like I have done everything up and above board. I can't keep my wife from being jealous of Christine. I can't give my wife self-esteem...only she can do that for herself. And I damn sure can't be something inside for her purposes that I'm not. She chooses to not see the woman inside me but hold on to the idea that I'm a man because that's what she wants to believe. It doesn't make it a reality though just because she wants it to be.

I gotta stop or I will just continue to ramble on. Thank you Olivia for your understanding and support, and to all the ladies who have stood by me today and shown me the love and compassionate that you possess. Special thanks to my "moms" Tamara and Pattie for their concern, love, and support when I really needed it today.

Somehow, this will work out down the line. More dialog is needed obviously, and we will talk "Sue" and I very soon about all of this...in great detail.

Thanks again everyone for being here for me.

Love to all,
Chrissie:)

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Originally Posted by Akyra

if that was the case maybe she wouldn't be having such a problemo hmm???

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Do you have all the information you could, before formulating this OPINION? Have you even went back and read Chrissie's posts?

Do so please, before you think to pass judgement..

Thank you for being open-minded. Last thing we need to do, is to pass judgement on one another...

Holly!
Are you there???? We need your wisdom now..
:)

Lots of Love to all my favorite Ladies..
;)
Pattie

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Originally Posted by Akyra

if that was the case maybe she wouldn't be having such a problemo hmm???

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Do not form an opinion before educating yourself...


That has been devastating for all of us, for so long...

It's called ignorance...

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Ok a little rambling...but read on.

I have been dressing for over 20 years...and married for 10. I told my wife before we got married...she has tried to accept it but it has been hard for her.

We have had many similar conversations. I have shaped my eyebrows considerably....really thin, high arch, very femme. She didn't like me shaving my legs, she didn't like my shaving my underarms, etc. But when it came to my eyebrows... this put her over the edge. When we talked about it... i found her perspective really interesting. Yes, I want to be me but in everything in life we have to understand other people's perspective even if we don't like it as much as we want others to understand us.

She was most scared...that she would have to defend me. That, to Julie's point, that I have now put her in a compromised position. Where other shaved attributes are 'disguised,' this is now very open and allowing for questions in which she will not easily be able to answer. I can still remember the conversation: everyone will ask her why I do it, she can't and might not know what to say..."oh yeah, my husband is a TG....then its, really. What does he do?. Do you like it? Is he bi or gay? How does it impact your relationship, etc.? it just keeps on going. And its not that the questions can't be answered intellectually but that it hurts her to have to answer them. She is immediately put on the defensive.... almost like she has to absorb a problem in which she is not ready to discuss or defend with family, friends, strangers, etc. You have to admit, that is alot to ask.

She is still my wife to this day, i still shape my eyebrows (arch and thinner but not super thin as before). She still hates it. I can't blame her...who said she had to like everything about me or anything in this world....but one thing which I know..she loves me, she tolerates my dressing, and she is still trying to understand though it is hard to feel acceptance which is different from understanding. I believe as much as I want to be myself and want others to accept me fully, we always have to do things in moderation to gain acceptance and to gradually change people's perspectives....nothing in extreme fashion has ever truly helped society as far as I know....thought there are many examples of continual plugging which has gradually changed the way we live, look at the environment, each other, religion, cultures, etc......Ok, so I am rambling..... this was certainly a conversation close to home just a few weeks ago as I plucked perhaps one toooooo many brows to give a distinctive arch...somewhat addictive i might add in my journey to be femme

This is really interesting, because as I've read virtually every word of every post, I'm finding that many of share a commonality. Our wives can accept much of what we do, but when we overdo the eyebrows, they notice, and they don't like it. Now that I remember back, my wife has scolded me twice in the past several months, and both times it was for plucking my eyebrows. She didn't like it. It loved it. She didn't call me a faggot, as she isn't one for name calling, but she did say, and I quote, "I didn't marry a woman." I took this rather harsh at first, but I came back pretty quickly with, "No, but you did knowingly marry a wannabe."

Stefanie,

Thanks for your input..it is truly appreciated. I still feel that we are never going to be accepted by the mainstream of society if we are going to let them dictate to us how we are supposed to be. This is what this universal struggle is all about. Can you understand that when you let someone define who you are, what you are, how you are supposed to dress, how you maintain your body, etc. you are giving them a power over you that NOBODY should have. You should be able to be who you are...if people don't want to accept you for who you are then that is their right. But they have NO right to say you can't shave your body, wear your brows in a feminine manner, etc. Hell, I remember the shock waves that went through the male jungle when guys started wearing an earring! OMG...it was unreal. Now which is it..if it is in their right ear it means their gay...or is it their left one?...I can never remember which! Sheesh!

We seemed to survive that world crisis. Now a lotta guys wear two or more earrings. Nobody thinks anything of it.

This incident today was blown all out of proportion because my wife is so damn scared that I might "embarrass" her. She is, and has been, almost paranoid about what others think...has been all her life. I have been considerate of her during our whole relationship just to make sure that her career and the relationships she has with her family and friends aren't compromised. So who really has been making the sacrifices here anyway?

I don't really know how much more I can say on this that I haven't already said. I guess you either understand or you don't. I have always had a fondness for the following quote though I don't know who first said it but it probably describes best how I feel right now:

"For those who understand, no explanation is necessary, for those who do not understand, no explanation will suffice."

Thus endeth the sermon.

Thanks again Stefanie for your input.

Love,
Chrissie

Hmmmm, well always the one with the unpopular opinion; I sympathize with both of you. Do I think her comment was mean and hateful; it was! Do I think what you did was rather drastic and probably caused your wife to experience shock; I do. This isn't about wrongs or rights; it's about feelings and how you both experience the other. So, perhaps she married you for the wrong reason. Sounds like you had a sense of that from the beginning. Maybe you married for the wrong reason, maybe not; I don't know. I suppose how well you both weather this depends not only on your committment to each other but how healthy the communication has been between you both.

*sigh*
It's not a perfect world is it?

hugs
kew

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Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy

Hmmmm, well always the one with the unpopular opinion; I sympathize with both of you. Do I think her comment was mean and hateful; it was! Do I think what you did was rather drastic and probably caused your wife to experience shock; I do. This isn't about wrongs or rights; it's about feelings and how you both experience the other. So, perhaps she married you for the wrong reason. Sounds like you had a sense of that from the beginning. Maybe you married for the wrong reason, maybe not; I don't know. I suppose how well you both weather this depends not only on your committment to each other but how healthy the communication has been between you both.

*sigh*
It's not a perfect world is it?

hugs
kew

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Yes Kew...it was a marriage of second chances in life. Two pretty emotionally beat up people who saw an opportunity to grab the brass ring one last time. Maybe we both did marry for the wrong reasons. I know I many times have contemplated whether or not people like us SHOULD even marry at all...but then, if we are going to put that kind of a restriction on our selves and our lives, then why exist at all?

What this is, is about acceptance. We want acceptance by society and yet many of us can't even get it from the person we love the most and believe should love us and accept us more than anyone...our wives and SO's.

No it is certainly "not" a perfect world!

Love,
Chrissie

Well to me the issue is not so much that she approves or likes what you do but rather can she allow you to be who you are and give you the respect and dignity you deserve? I don't know. Maybe she doesn't know right now. Again the power to see each other through this will come from communication. I think, without being insulting to her, you need to tell her how hurtful what she said to you was. You need to use "I" messages. Keep in mind I'm a therapist and have done some couples counseling and a whole lotta family therapy. Use a format such as: I feel ________________ when you _________________ because ______________________. An example would be: I feel hurt and sad when you referred to my brows looking 'fag like' because I feel disrespected and rejected by you. See how that is not blaming or argumentative? By communicating in this manner you put the onus right where it needs to be and you do it without hurting her feelings in return. Another suggestion I might make is keep you discussions timed--1 to 2 hours max--as fatique itself will disintegrate the conversation. Also, you need to take responsibility for the fact you did something that I think you knew would be radical enough to shake her tree big time. Acknowledge this! And g'luck me dear:)

hugs
kew

Hi Christine

Really sorry to hear about this setback. You are understandably angry but you know as well as I that these things need to be talked about between the two of you when emotions have calmed down. Your wife really needs to talk to others as she clearly still has issues to be settled.

I can fully empathsize with you. My girlfriend is also highly concerned about her reputation in her community. The thought of her being shamed by the revelation that her lover is "gay" is frightening to her, it would mean in the eyes of others that our relationship was a sham and she would be mocked and laughed at publically. This terrifies her, she would probably pack her bags and leave rather than stay and face the music. She always tells me that she is concerned about my humiliation but in fact it is mostly about her.

Although I would prefer her to be thick-skinned, I dont expect any miracles. Thickening her skin to ignore the viewpoints of others and to stay focussed on the happiness of our relationship is a process that will take many years to accomplish - it has started though slowly.

Knowing the way she feels, I happily do not overdo thinning my eyebrows, leaving them neat and tidy but not overtly feminine. My breasts were mostly grown when we met so all I can do is wear loose fitting tops to minimize their appearance but I still get disapproving looks from her when they become too obvious. Shaving my body is easily hidden and not a problem at all and she really likes the smooth feel.

In many ways, the lives we are trying to lead in being androgenous is more difficult to live with, as we cannot be labeled. It would actually be easier to fully transition and live full time as a woman than to be at this half-way house. At least then your wife and others can accept your appearance. However so long as you are still presenting yourself as a man, any obvious feminizing changes, particularly to the face, is difficult to explain and very embarrassing for your wife.

I don't see why your wife can reasonably disapprove of any changes to your body which are hidden ie shaving your body etc - but your face is a different matter. Not only is it very obvious but it is also her "image" of you. What I mean is that minor changes to your face changes the "image" of you in her head. For example, my girlfriend finds me very sexy in women's clothes and we often make love with me in lingerie. However she is not interested in even kissing me if I am wearing a wig or make-up - because it is no longer the me she knows. There is a difference between the face and the rest of the body, I guess the face represents the person, the soul.

By shaping your eyebrows, you have changed the look of your face and she no longer recognizes "you". Instead you have become a different person - as she says you now look like a fag.

My advice is to do your own eyebrows in future and to keep them natural looking. I have thinned mine a lot but are not so obvious. A little brow liner and they are quickly transformed into female brows.

I agree with Holly. I think that there is more of a problem in the way she feels than the eybows. You are looking forward to a new life in Florida.Moving can be quite traumatic even if most of you wants to go. (ask Kew *winks*)

She will want to make new friends. She may not want to be a CD handbag. It's bit like being a golfing widow... cept the T-girls have much better dress sense! My ex husban thought I'd be happy mixing with the Cricket club wives while we got the BBQ ready after the cricket game WRONG!!!

She is entitled to a midlife/moving crisis TV identity crisis too.

If all the CD's love ther wives and wish to stay married you must realise that there is TWO girls in the relationship and your have to work through it together with give and take. so if the eyebrows are REALLY important to you tell her, but ask HOW you can help her deal with it. How would she like you to go about it?

You asked her for a kiss to spite her. Twice to drive it home. Not because you were in need of a kiss????? so When I am angry I am like a male.I am the bear that goes into my cave and every one know in my house not to "poke the bear"!!! After hibernating for a while and working it through I have calmed down or worked through a solution or a way to talk about the problem calmly. This might take days or a week.

If you are becoming more feminine she may be taking on more masculine traits ( with out realising)

Fraid I can't tell you what to do as we don't know you both but ......My advice is don't poke the bear!

I'll just add that I think Sista Celeste is onto something here. It's that ying/yang push/pull thingy I've talked about. You know there are male and female energies and if you're expressing more female energy it may conversely influence your wife to express more masculine energy. Just a thought. Anyhoooo, what else were we all talking about??

hugs
kew

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Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy

I'll just add that I think Sista Celeste is onto something here. It's that ying/yang push/pull thingy I've talked about. You know there are male and female energies and if you're expressing more female energy it may conversely influence your wife to express more masculine energy. Just a thought. Anyhoooo, what else were we all talking about??

hugs
kew

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Can you smell the smoke???

LOL! J/K....



Anyway...

I was wondering, because for the CD's that I have talked to in depth about this, it seems to be the case...



I am wondering if the GG's that have a hard time accepting the CD’s aren't so in touch with their own feminine side?

I mean, I am a real "girlie girl". I love clothes and shoes and perfume and make up and jewelry. I spend a lot of time and money making sure I am just so. I have seen Kew's pic and Tamara's and they appear to me, to be the same way...

Maybe that is why it is easier for us to accept and understand, because we can totally identify?

The CD's that I have spoken to about this, that have problems with their GG's, do not describe their SO like that. I am not saying that they are like totally masculine, but they don't seem to care about that girlie stuff as much...

What do you think?



Just a thought...

I have way too much time on my hands today...

LOL!



Lots of Love,
;)
Pattie

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She was most scared...that she would have to defend me. That, to Julie's point, that I have now put her in a compromised position. Where other shaved attributes are 'disguised,' this is now very open and allowing for questions in which she will not easily be able to answer. I can still remember the conversation: everyone will ask her why I do it, she can't and might not know what to say..."oh yeah, my husband is a TG....then its, really. What does he do?. Do you like it? Is he bi or gay? How does it impact your relationship, etc.? it just keeps on going.

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She can just say that he is a metrosexual. Metrosexuallity is becoming more and more known by the general public. At least it avoids the entire "Are you gay?" part and insure that they dont think the mariage is a sham .

Helena, I like your perspective...with the body hair, it is just hair on the body...it might seem strange to our wives but it certainly doesn't change the 'look.'

I believe you are right that as people we become familiar and comfortable with our partner's face. Changing this picture simply changes the picture!

I also still believe if we are to help others understand, that sticking up for our 'rights' is important and what we all fight for (eg human rights, equal rights, etc.). Each of us simply need to determine the path that both fits our community, our family life, our personal comfort to help change peoples' perspectives. We can be extreme about it and create martyrs (sometimes needed as history has proved in many situations) or we can pursue a gradual chiseling at society....I believe both are needed so long as we understand more about our actions and how they impact others.

So very sad here to hear about the obstacles that still need to be overcome.
Wish I had some magical words or ideas that would help in any way.
As a show of support Ill be wearing a nice set of lashes in your honor today,perhapes a pair with a hint of pink.(As I usually do not wear false lashes but today an exception is made)
And by the way my girlfriend of nearly 15 years I have picked up as being somewhat jealouse of my appearance,as I get men gazing at me more often than her,its a combative thing in the female knome.