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Hi Tiffany,Quote:
Originally Posted by TiffanySlave
I think it's one of those things that is going to be an eternal issue, and not resloved for for a few more years when views are more relax (if thats not too much of a condradiction - eternal for a few years).
Anne
Surely getting married and having kids is something that a person chooses to do? Not something that can be blamed on society?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristineRenee
Until we all start taking responsibility for our own actions, nothing will ever change.
Mona xx
Mona you are so right!Quote:
Originally Posted by MonaSmith
Crossdressers are chicken, they are scared to death about being completely OUT. We have our normal "MAN" straight life and then we have a part of us we want to keep hidden away to protect ourselves and the ones we love from embaressment, shame and physical harm.
I for one am a crossdressing chicken. I have worked hard to get where I am in my community to risk it all. I knew what I was my whole life, but I realised it (accepted myself as I was built) way too late. If I was a teenager and "owned up" to my CDing earlier, I would have less issue with being completly OUT and would care less and less what others thought. ( I would have discussed this with my wife before 16 years of marriage as well, that's for sure)
Mona, it will take those youngsters with nothing to loose and the courage to back it up in order to make changes in society. I hope they hurry up!
As far as women being able to wear what they want and when they want, I have this to say, They've earned it, it has taken years and years, from the right to work, to vote, to smoke, to wear pants (thanks to WWII) and so on. And untill MEN earn the right to wear what they want, when they want, crossdressers will forever be in the closet. Not to offend anyone but we Crossdressers in general do not have the Balls. We have two seporate lives and are happy being miserible in that way because who can risk (or want to) the public scrunity.
Back to the original question, why is it a big deal. Because society in general is scared of difference, of things that are not the norm. (whatever the norm at the time is)To answer the question, untill a man in a skirt and wearing makeup is viewed as an everyday normal occurance and seen in public crossdressing will be a big deal.
Melissa; I know how you feel, when en-femme, I walk, move perceve me to be a woman, or more rather a feminine male, who likes to have long hair, wear fashion skirts, high heel shoes, long colored nails and jewlery of all sorts. When in everyday male mode I still like that stuff but I hide it, because that is how I was raised. When En-femme I feel refreshed, when en-man I feel repressed.
Great thread, great debate.
in or out ,single or marryed, kids or not....the question is the same if you could.....???
in some ways we are all the same and so differnt at the same time . passing , aceptence.. or what not what we chose to do for what ever reason/s. is as diffrent as are our place we are in in this time... could it change if......???? well i went from like totaly trying to hide this to wow this is who i am ...ok .
the "him" side of me yes i hold a certen dis like for "him". changeing and being a woman?? i thought abought that often and thought it was what i wanted ....but for right now i am mostly happy being this little slightly messed up person .....just being me... as for the clouthing ??? well yes woman do wear and get away with it a lot more than it is the outher way aroung ....my hair is longer in a ponney tail... red or pink band.... girly pinky rings ... a little make up every day ... looks ???? stares ????
well yar ......i am just who i am happy .... who or what i will be???? i will find out latter.... just being me..........
Wow ! Am I on the right forum?
I actually like women. And whatever I am and whatever I want to whine and moan about...It certainly isn't women who are stopping me going out dressed up if I dared to.
Sheesh! Who's going to be the people beating the crap out of you in a car park? Male or female?
Get a grip people.
It's really amazed me that there is (amongst maybe only 2 or 3 people) a genuine mysogeny born of frustration at your own predicament. Don't blame women. It's got bugger all to do with WOMEN. If you are jealous of them because they can do something you can't and dress how they please...then express it as such and be honest with yourself instead of all this 'society hates me' nonsense.
Society doesn't hate you. Bring me one. Show me one. "Society" is a myth, an easy term to point at.
It's the big hairy ignorant git at the end of the bar that hates you.
(Thank you. I feel better now. Time for a lie down to brace myself for the incoming venom.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara-GG
I Totally agree Tamara ,
To Hell what society thinks , "JUST DO IT" !
I've walked through streets and shopping centres , its my life and I will not be told by society what I cant wear!
Mona,Quote:
Originally Posted by MonaSmith
I'm sure you are quite right in the literal sense of your statement. However, remaining close to the definition of a crossdresser (as it pertains to men who wear women's clothes, as opposed to transvestites) we, that is crossdressers, are not necessarily transexuals (TS girls), as I understand the defiinition for TS girls. While I might be a transvestite, and while I am certainly a crossdresser, I am definitely not a transexual, and I don't want to become a woman. That may be true of you, and if it is you are certainly more than a crossdresser. If nothing else, you are gorgeous!
I realize that many on this forum, whether they be ggs or cds or ts or tv or those in transition or finished tranisitioning or whatever, are divided about adhering to distinct definitions. While that is fine with those who care to stray, it isn't fine with me. Words mean things and represent things, so I believe it is only fair to use correct, if not exact, definitions for those of us who fall into the umbrella of 'transgendered.'
Let the debate roll on.
Perhaps I should have written, "As much as I hate living in a society that tells me what to wear, even more so do I hate living in a world that tells me how to think."Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara-GG
What am I doing about it? Dressing--to one degree or another--every day of my life: at home, at work, while running errands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamara-GG
No, I don't wear a skirt to work, but I am "pushing the envelope" even there. But were I to go "too far" (as defined by my employer), I'd be out of a job. So, shouldn't I have the courage to face the consequences? Well, not if there is another person dependent upon my income. Besides, food is a more basic human need than clothing.
Sure, I know that women risked their jobs in order to secure their right to wear pants, but we must look at the historical context. In the immediate post-WWII years, when women left the factories and returned to the office, marriage was the norm, with the male being the breadwinner. (Sorry if that offends, but it's historical reality.) So they could afford the luxury of standing up for their rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paula A
We also need to beware of employers, SOs, and others who truly DO have power over us. No, they won't beat us to a pulp, but they can make our lives a living hell. Bullying comes in many forms. For example:Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie York
"Sorry, but we're going to have to terminate your employment," said the human resources manager.
"It's okay for me to wear your clothes, but not for you to wear mine, because your motive is different," said the wife.
"I'm holding you in contempt of court," said the judge.
So, in a way, I agree that "society" isn't the problem. The problem is the multitude of individuals who truly can't (or won't) think for themselves.
So, what are you saying? I'm NOT a crossdresser? I don't understand the very slim definition that you are putting on the term. We are all crossdressers, we all dress in the clothes of the opposite genetic form, our reasons might be very varied and our end goals may be different, but we all crossdress. I'm not trying to provoke and argument, I'm just not sure of how, or why, you are trying to define it so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Susan
Mona xx.
:D i like to go shoping,,used to go shoping with my mom when i was a kid and even as i got older,, while it is true a woman wearing mens clothe sisnt actualy crossdressed and they had to dress for the job,,, women have not gone back to wanting to be FEMININE which i think might be the issue here,, :D my 4 cents :p
I actually said want to be or FEEL like a woman... My partner is a crossdresser. He doesn't want hormones or a sex change etc... but when he's crossdressed he feels like a 'she'. Just because you don't, doesn't mean other crossdressers don't either. As for your 'such rubbish' statement, well an English person wouldn't be so rude, but as you're not, I won't blame your for it :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Susan
Tamara x
I totally agree with that, but again that's sexism in the work place, it shouldn't be allowed. I do hope in time this all changes and everyone is free to wear what they want without consequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by sidney_girl
Tamara x
I am a genetic male that likes feeling feminine and in fact get sexually aroused by wearing women's clothes, especially lingerie and as you might guess by my names sake, sissy panties. I don't want to become a woman either. So I guess I agree with Tamara's point of view. I don't agree with everything Carrah said but Carrah does have a valid point of view about a "Man's World". I sometimes think women don't understand how good they have it. I am actually envious of women. Women express their emotions so easily but I can't. I can't even cry anymore. I think men end up dealing with more stress than women. Much of the stress comes from society. For my part, I am willing to be submissive to women and make it a "Woman's World" as long as I can have emotions and express them. My 2 cents worth. Am I a bad little sissy for siding with the genetic girls here?
Wow. Lots of really strong opinions here. Really great discussion, made me think. Maybe motivation isnt as important as I first thought, although I still think it is a factor. I still think a male dressing fully as a woman with makeup, a wig, nail polish, etc. is not on the same par as a woman throwing on a pair of guys pants and a polo shirt. That is about comfort, and while cding makes me feel comfortable, it's not the same.
But the double standard certainly does exist.
Julie, you make a point that also made me think. The word "society" is tossed around maybe a little too frequently. Individuals are certainly influenced by societal norms, and most people are afraid of things or ideas that are different, But everyone has the free will to decide if they are going to be a tolerant empathetic person or an ignorant jackass.
That goes for women and men. Small minded people come in both genders.
As far as us being afraid to be who we are for the world, then complaining about how people feel about us, I don't think any of us can be blamed for that. We all come from different backgrounds and different histories, and all carry scars, to some degree. Some of us are further along than others. Some are content to stay in the closet, out of a percieved necessity or some other reason. I go out, in the right situations. But I don't yet have the courage to go shopping at the mall as Melissa. I think it sucks that I can't, courage or not. But I don't think I should be blamed for being afraid to do it. The possible reprisals are very real, but admittedly probably overblown in my head. Even crossdressers themselves are affected by popular opinion, even if they detest it. But I do think things are getting better. Change comes slowly, however. A generation ago, we all thought we were so alone; now we know that isn't true. Parts of the population now see us as harmless, others won't let us talk to their kids. As time goes on things will get better.
I'm sorry, starting to babble. Just some random thoughts, I guess, for what they are worth. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I think it's a good one.
Hugs,
Melissa :)
Mellisa, a good point you made. A cd dressing fully like a women is not the same as a woman wearing pants and a polo shirt. This is true, but it is probably not correct to say a double standard exits, even in this statement you made, A cd can not be compred to this type of GG.
Now to prove that a double standard does not exist(my theory). If a gg was to dress fully as a man, similar to what a CD might dress like but in reverse. Let's say the GG was to put on false beard and sideburns, and stuffed her pants with something to create a bulge in the crotch. Now, if this GG still looked like a GG(she doesn't pass as a man), she would probably get the same laughes and insults that a CD might get. She would have the same troubles at work, with the family, as the male CD would. I don't know if she would get the same violent behavior that the thugs deal to male CDs, but thugs already attack women so I think these CD GGs would be attacked as well.
The only thing in favor of women is they can wear men's pants more easily than a man can wear a skirt in public, not just CDs but a just a man in a skirt.
I think the barriers will be broken, not by the CD community, but by straight or gay men who find wearing a skirt is fashionable. When some hollywood types or musicians start wearing skirts for fashion reasons, then it might trickle down to the CDs, making it easier for CDs to dress up.
Crossdressing why the big fuss?
Made me think of ...
POLAR BEARS .................................................. ..
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................................
.... why the big PAUSE?
Hoot giggles foflol wmkim ( wetting my knickers in mirth) .. sowee to any serious sisters, honest i'll wear no make-up and baggy pants for a month ... but it gave me a giggle!
Just the response I was ready to make Amelie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amelie
Women wearing pants are not crossdressers, they are simply wearing the current style of fashion. I have seen numerous posts complaining about women's freedom to wear what they want, while we crossdressers do not. This is such BS. When women attempt to pass themselves as male, then they are the equivelent of what we are. What about crossdresser's who wear women's slacks? Are they then not still crossdressers?
People need to quit fighting when we're all on the same side here. We're arguing semantics and nonsense, and trying to re-interpret what other members are saying in their posts. How do we even begin to assauge society's perceptions of us when we argue so illogically amongst ourselves?
I am a crossdresser. I am transgendered. I am a man who would be a woman if it was possible. I accept that not everybody is the exact carbon-copy of who I am. And all I can say to that is Thank God!
Sharon,
A big AMEN! to that from me. You said it better than I ever could. Thank you.
Brandy Marie Devereaux
The reason I said a double standard does exist is because if a man wants to wear a skirt or a dress simply because he wants to(not because he wants to crossdress), he can't-at least not without alot of staring and laughing. It's not something I want to do, but some may. Otherwise, I agree completely with you both, Amelie and Sharon.
Hugs,
Melissa :)
Gosh!! A gender fight in a crossdressing forum. How ironic! :D
I will say my two cents. Women wearing masculine clothing has got nothing to do with practicality and everything to do with freedom of expression. The issue which nobody has yet talked about is why women today, with complete freedom to choose any look, choose to spend 90% of their time in masculine clothing. In theory there should be a 50/50 split.
In my opinion, while women are not crossdressing or trying to express a male persona, they are making use of certain value judgements which go along with the clothes. Clothes can be viewed as conservative, classy, outlandish, sexy etc as well as being masculine/feminine. For me the reason why women choose to wear pants most of the time is because they want to inherit the masculine values so as to de-emphasize their femininity. By wearing pants, they get taken more seriously, are not oggled at by men as sex objects, are not fashion judged by other women. Women just have an easier time if they tone down their femininity and become androgenous. They dont have to take as much time over their appearance and are listened to instead of being stared at.
There are still unfair gender differences which benefit men. Men can be slobs, but women cannot. Solution: - wear men's clothes and become a slob too! :) However when women want to use their femininity to have fun such as going out on the town then the LBDs and cropped tops and heels come out to play. Then women want to be stared at!
So women are taking advantage of the masculine attributes attached to pants and shirts etc but this is not strictly crossdressing. There is no pretence or delusion that they are men. Only "gender bending" men are doing something equivalent by wearing skirts but without wearing breast forms and wigs etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristineRenee
Crissie,
I frequently wore only female clothing - jeans and t shirt - before I transitioned and nobody ever said a word. I was chatting with my colleague one day at work after I announced my transition and told him that I was wearing only female clothing at that time, and then, when he actually looked at what I was wearing he could see.
There is a reason other than crossdressing that some GG's wear their mans clothes, which, in the UK is fairly common (as far as I understand). That is that sometimes they want to feel close to their man when the two of them are apart.
Anne
Lot's of interesting comments here :) Like we didn't know that would be the case :)
Some of what I found interesting were these;
Topaz wrote, "Women wearing men's styled clothing came out of necessity pure and simple." Well, necessity or a "desire" to mimick men for the purpose of performing to the levels of men as much as possible? I think what you are actually saying here is that women had to try to be as much like men as possible in order to function adequately in those environments and under those conditions. So, it would appear that at that time a woman had a desire to be as much of a man as possible? Yes? Keep in mind that women working at that time was not governmentally mandated. Therefore, logically, it had to come from desire and not from necessity.
Monasmith writes; "We all complain about inequality and yet do nothing to balance it out?" Point of fact is that we DO try to balance it out everyday in this way; we try hard to rise to the level of others and for those who cannot rise to the level of another, they seek to reduce that individual to their level - happens everyday. All of mankind seek equality.
Belledonna writes; "However, it is erroneous to state that all woman who don men's clothing are crossdressers." Actually, this is the essence of crossdressing; wearing the clothing of the opposite sex. In fact, if you are wearing the clothing of the opposite sex for any reason, you are crossdressed. Merriam-Webster writes:
Main Entry: cross-dress·ing
Pronunciation: 'kros-"dre-si[ng]
Function: noun
: the wearing of clothes designed for the opposite sex
Tamara-GG ask's the question; "Denial of what??" The answer is simple; "I have never wished I was a man... why the hell would I want to be one??" This simple statement, if true, would make you either a very unique or very young individual. There is no human being alive today that hasn't or won't at some point, wish they were of the opposite sex at least for a day - it's simple human nature and cannot be denied. We may be at the top of the food chain, but we are still very much behaviorally predictable.
I've always said that perspective is a wonderful thing. Coming to terms with "what is" is often much more difficult than coming to terms with what one perceives. I have always felt that reality is what it is for all of us regardless of how we view any particular subject or matter. We may look at an object 1 mile down the road and some will say it is a half mile, while some may say it is a mile and a half. However, it is and will always be exactly 1 mile...
I don't know about being young... I'm 34, so I must be unique :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Carrah
Tamara x
I thought this post warranted its own response.
Logically I could...Quote:
Originally Posted by Topaz
It would be quite illogical to assume 100 percent of women or 100 percent of men comply with emotion vs. logic respectively.Quote:
There are many scientists who are women and have a great deal of logic. And just how logical is it for a man who is 5'9" 350 pounds to call a woman who is 5'8" 150 pounds a "fat bitch"? Like this person is the glowing example of fitness? He wouldn't be able to carry you off of the the battle field either.
Again, this is a big negative and reflects only your pereception of what I said. In the same way you are charged a higher (or lower) rate for auto insurance based upon where you live, you (and I) also fit into many a statistical realm. Statistics (when not purposefully distorted) represent what is and you and I have little to say about it.Quote:
Women are no more confused than men. No I don't vote for the cutest politician. I also don't vote for a politician based on a single concept. I vote according to the whole politician. (And I know that they are all just playing a game and won't be able to fulfill the promises they made.) You're putting all women as a whole into the very narrow perspective that you have of women.
This is the typical female argument; introducing non-relevant matter. I am not familiar with statistics relevant to what gender is suing McDonalds. I am only familiar with statistical information with respect to the majority behind the tobacco lawsuits.Quote:
As for smoking there were a lot of men involved in that law suit. And what about the guy who is suing McDonald's for making him fat?
I do not recall discussing or mentioning "equal rights," but rather touching breifly upon "equality." I agree that performance of the same "exact" job with no additional benifits to one or the other should result in equal pay. No, what I refered to was the physical impossibilities between the genders with respect to lifting, moving, etc. Most women, even in a simple retail environment, must call upon their male counterparts to lift or move certain objects. This being the case, and since you brought this up, should these women be provided equal pay?Quote:
The concept behind equal rights is if a person is doing the same job they should receive the same pay. It's been a historical fact that women receive less pay for doing the same job. It was also a historic fact for people of color. It was a supposed "scientific" fact that people of color weren't capable of doing the same jobs so didn't deserve the same pay. I know there are jobs that I am not capable of doing and don't do them, but, if I am doing the same job as a man shouldn't I receive the same pay?
Frankly, I wish more women would pay more attention to "Little Carrah." There are few women out there who haven't been asked to expose their breasts at one point in time or another. No one has ever asked me in 46 years to see little Carrah - know what I mean. Frankly, I think that's a little rude, don't you? Look, the only way a man is going to stare at your breasts is if this is your intent. Put on a minimizer bra and a loose sweater and no one will likely be staring at your breasts. However, put on a sexy bra and tight shirt and the effect is proportional, logical, and is as consistant with human behavior as the desire to crossdress.Quote:
As for nipples, it's fine if you look at them, but is it really necessary for a man to hold their entire conversation with my nipples instead of with me. That is a matter of respect. If I hold a converstion with you I look at your face, should I instead be addressing your penis during the entire conversation?
This most certainly is not true. There is no way you will ever convince me or anyone else here that you have seen "just as many" emotional men in your life as women. I'm certain we all know better than to buy into this one...Quote:
Yes women can be emotional, but I've seen just as many emotional men.
Hugs,
Topaz
Topaz wrote, "Women wearing men's styled clothing came out of necessity pure and simple." Well, necessity or a "desire" to mimick men for the purpose of performing to the levels of men as much as possible? I think what you are actually saying here is that women had to try to be as much like men as possible in order to function adequately in those environments and under those conditions. So, it would appear that at that time a woman had a desire to be as much of a man as possible? Yes? Keep in mind that women working at that time was not governmentally mandated. Therefore, logically, it had to come from desire and not from necessity.
Carrah,
I seriously doubt that most women who wear pants consider themselves crossdressers or are attempting to mimic men. Did you ever consider that sometimes women simply find pants more practical, comfortable, or modest than a dress?
We are crossdressers here, so we often attempt to emulate the most feminine of fashions. Women have no need to do so, they (for the most part) are already feminine and have nothing to prove to themselves or others. Look how many crossdressers wear garters to the percentage of women who do? Personally, I find the right slacks or jeans to be extremely sexy when combined with a nice top and pretty face. If you appreciate the female body, then nothing shows it off like a form fitting pair of slacks.
If you're thinking of baggy jeans, then I must admit that I don't like them on anyone , male or female, but this is just an unfortunate state of today's fashions, nothing more.