Normality!

Yes we are normal but we are also different from a lot as it is normal to be different as everyone is different in some way,
yes we are in a group but there are big differences in what we want from one end of the group to the other so it would be difficult to know what rights to demand for, but saying that i do not think that it would do any harm if we could get some simple wording changed in place`s like schools and place`s of work where it states " Boys uniform so and so, girls uniform so and so, men's code of dress women's code of dress, then at least every one would understand that anyone can wear anything they like.
It does seam odd that we were born naked then had to have clothes to keep us warm then some one decided to make it some sort of statement , fashion or gender i do not know and that seams to have stuck but now we would like to change that .
Not sure that i agree with you on the house and car thing as most seam to think that they are different if they have a fast car and a posh house i see that all the time, and there is definitely snobbery in what clothes you wear .

I can agree with you saying that clothes are just clothes yet many use them to make a statement on what they are or trying to be and many will assume what you are from the clothes that you are wearing so can we really say clothes are just clothes.

OK so i believe you have wrote all this because you believe in what you have said so it leaves me with one question , why do you not believe the time is right now for you to be out wearing the clothes of your chose,
why are you waiting to show people that you are normal , what is it you are waiting for , i am only asking you this to see what you think needs to be changed for you to go out .

joanne

Good questions, Joanne. The time is not right for me yet because I'm still very young, without much of a public face or voice. I am unemployed, and still receiving my education. Because I'm a realist as well as an idealist, I have to recognize that to live my normal life right now would jeopardize a lot of what I seek to gain in terms of my personal life, which, for the moment, I must put ahead of any real activism or crossdressing "movement." When I have my full education, and at least some job security with the respect of my colleagues, the time will be right for me.

Arguing about whether something or someone is "normal", is mostly a lot of hot air. Or on this site, a lot of wasted print.

The point is; do u FEEL normal CDing? I don't. And I'll take it a step further.
I think if u feel CDing is normal, than u r delusional!

I WISH CDing was NORMAL and accepted by the public, but it isn't. I WISH I could go out dressed HOWEVER I wished to. But know that I can't, without ramifications.

I WISH I felt CDing was a normal activity, but I don't. I am powerless to change the way I FEEL, altho I keep trying. And I certainly can't change society's view that CDing is, at least, abnormal. If not something even worse!

There is something in human nature that makes us reject those that look different. Maybe it dates back to our tribal days. But, in any case, it is what it is. For whatever reason.

There may come a time in human history, when CD's will be accepted out in public. But I don't believe that will happen in my lifetime. Sadly enough.

NORMAL: My definition of normal; well that's a loaded word when used by anyone anywhere.. the truth to me is I feel normal, when dressed and when not dressed up as Carly.. to the people who don't crossdress and don't have any kind of other type of mental anguish(es) I think they might be the most un normal, because they are too pure, (more than likely they are the most perverted of anyone there is) and usually that is the case.. being a crossdresser probably isn't normal behavior but then being a child molester is way way not normal and I feel like , in my eyes that crossdressing isn't hurting anyone and that it is a form of self expression..

Yes Valerie Nicole, i can see your point in that and it is a pity that we feel that we are made to make choices like that .
Hey i thought it was you young ones that are meant to be changing the world for us oldies or at least showing us how it is done :D just kidding .



joanne

The reason why I'm not normal has nothing to do with being trans. Pulls out computer geek weekly.

"Most people seem normal until you get to know them."
But the word is a highly charged and difficult one. We each have our own idea of normal which has been programmed by family and society. The hurdle that we and society in general have to get over is that of thinking that non-normal equals harmful or bad.
I don't think that my CDing behavior is normal in the context of my social situation, but on the other hand I don't see it as bad or destructive. My wife is a little bemused by it but not alarmed. Her objection to it, if any, is just that it's not socially acceptable.
It's a kind of circular argument isn't it.

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Originally Posted by Shannen

I think a lot of us may be disappointed if crossdressing were part of the social norm...

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That's an interesting point, Shannen, and one I give a lot of thought to. If men and women all wore the same clothes and enjoyed the opportunity to style in similar manners (hair, make-up, etc.) even to the point that average men wore breast forms to accentuate their style, how would that affect me/us? Personally, I think I would be happy in only that I could be and dress as I like all the time with no worries about how I would be perceived at work or family affairs. I think the world would be a better place if we all wore skirts.

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

So even if you feel strongly about the food you eat, house you live in, or car you drive, it does not (or maybe I should say should not) comprise your entire identity, and neither does (or should) crossdressing.

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You are changing your words as you go. What you wrote, that I replied to, was,

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but at the very core, do we identify ourselves by our tastes in food, soda, houses, or cars? No!

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There is a difference between "entire identity" and "identify ourselves by".

Most people aren't too concerned about what they eat, and if they go somewhere that doesn't happen to have their first choice in food or soda, they will just shrug and have something else. A long-term vegetarian, given the choice of eating something not in accordance with their kind of vegetarianism or else going without a meal, will likely skip the meal, even if they are "hungry". I've "gone hungry" rather than break my ethics -- and going hungry can be dangerous for me for medical reasons. Where does food sit in Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs? Numero Uno -- so someone fully prepared to go without food because of something they believe in, is not just expressing a "taste", they are expressing something that they consider to be of great importance to their identity. Are they reducing their identity to just that one point? Of course not! But that doesn't mean that particular part of their identity is considered to be on-par with other parts of their identity.

Bleach my hair blond because this one has gone ten thousand and climbing right over my head. This thread has totally lost me.

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Originally Posted by tess-leigh

You are changing your words as you go. What you wrote, that I replied to, was,



There is a difference between "entire identity" and "identify ourselves by".

Most people aren't too concerned about what they eat, and if they go somewhere that doesn't happen to have their first choice in food or soda, they will just shrug and have something else. A long-term vegetarian, given the choice of eating something not in accordance with their kind of vegetarianism or else going without a meal, will likely skip the meal, even if they are "hungry". I've "gone hungry" rather than break my ethics -- and going hungry can be dangerous for me for medical reasons. Where does food sit in Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs? Numero Uno -- so someone fully prepared to go without food because of something they believe in, is not just expressing a "taste", they are expressing something that they consider to be of great importance to their identity. Are they reducing their identity to just that one point? Of course not! But that doesn't mean that particular part of their identity is considered to be on-par with other parts of their identity.

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You're right in that vegetarianism is different from tastes in food. But ethics are a deeper part of a person's identity. Not eating meat, as a vegetarian, isn't a matter of taste, which was your point. My response is that in case such as this, it isn't the food which is important, but the sentiment and ethics expressed by the food that is or isn't eaten. The food is still just food. The food itself isn't how the person identifies themselves. They identify themselves based on the ethics that guide their diet.

Normal? Just look at my avatar. Does that look normal to you? I'm not normal, I'm a freak, a goofball, nutcase, weirdo, kook, wacko, whack job, screwy, screwball, lunatic, crazy, eccentric, dingbat, crackpot, bozo, nut, flake, fruitcake, oddball, crank, batty, misfit, odd, peculiar, strange, and etc. This should explain where I'm coming from.

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

Wake up and smell the coffee, people, we are normal. Yes, a bold statement, but a true one nonetheless.

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I agree, if you mean that gender variance is a ubiquitous strand of human experience across history and culture. Yes, we've always been here.

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

Our goal as a group shouldn't be to demand rights and such for our group. What we need to do is change our own self-image, and then begin to live that image without fear.

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I dunno about that. No one ever got any rights without fighting for them. But certainly having confidence in who you are is a necessary part. "We're here, we're (whatever), get used to it" has no impact if "we" haven't gotten used to "it" first.

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

Clothes are just clothes, they have no necessary gender. Hair is just hair, the meanings associated with length and style are completely arbitrary. Makeup is just coloured substances painted on the face. There is no inherent determination of whose face it is to be painted on.

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I dunno about that either. Clothes are a form of self-expression. They may have no gender as such, but they have gender meaning specific to their time and place. When I wear women's clothes (which is all the time) I'm expressing something (which I currently think of as "femme" rather than "female") about myself, and if the gender meaning of these clothes was different, I'd wear different clothes.

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

Let's not fight the way other groups have fought for rights and freedom. Let's not draw dividing lines, make people defend their beliefs. The best thing we can possibly do is start to see ourselves the right way, live our lives that way, and let everyone else see us that way. We are lucky to live in as free a society as many of us do. Let's not let that go to waste. When the time is right for me, I will be out. I will go public, and I will let the world see just how normal I am. The more normal people they see, the more normal they'll see us.

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The best thing is to see ourselves in the right way, sure. But when you're open about who you are, how you fight for rights and freedom is not really up to you. It depends how other people see you. They already have their dividing lines and beliefs, and they'll defend them simply because you challenge them by existing. You're only on the way to rights and freedom when they've stopped bothering so much.

:happy:

This is one of my favorite subjects, Valerie I have posted in a couple of my threads about this very subject, the latest thread, "compliments from GG's". Like you I do not believe in protesting for socalled special rights to wear dresses, because like you said, society will only push back. Yes most of society does not accept crossdressing because they associate it with the gay or outrageous drag queen lifestyle, we already have the right to dress how we please, we are too afraid exercise our rights to dress as a woman, I know I use to be afraid also, I have overcome that fear, and now I go out dressed almost daily. We need to quit hiding behind our fears. I get alot of compliments from alot of women, and a few men when I am out in public crossdressed, I have been told I dress classy. I dont care if peaple dont like how I am dressed. I remember the day when women were scorned by society for wearing pants in the 1960's I was a boy then, some women rebelled against society and wore pants until it was accepted for women to dress how they want to. We need to follow their example by dressing how we want to. protesting is not the answer, we need to get dressed get out and be safe as Gina Lance from girl talk magazine says. Like I have said in the past we need to dress in a appropriate manner so society does not see us as a freak show, if we dress ****ty when we go to the mall or any other store or community events then society will be less accepting, you dont see women going out dressed like that to the store, or the bank, or the mall. I like to dress in what is called feminine style, because I identify as a woman, and want to appear as a woman in public. What I want is for society to accept us as feminine males who prefer to dress as a woman, that is where I differ in my thoughts from some of the post's in here.

I am normal, and this is how i justify it:- i grew up being a normal boy in a normal home, its normal for humans to be curious,otherwise we'd never have gone to the moon, its normal to experiment, otherwise we'd never have been able to even make clothes.I stumbled into crossdressing because i was curious to see what i'd look like, i wanted to experiment to see what it felt like. I liked what i saw, I liked how it felt. I thought i looked pretty, that made me feel good, lets do it again see if i can improve on it, thats normal, thats how evolution sort of works,thats how scientists,artists,composers work when working on projects. The guilt afterwards is normal. In my opinion i believe that theres not a man alive today thats never tried crossdressing at what ever level,i think that it would be pretty abnormal if they say they hadn't or never ever thought of it. Its normal natural human behaviour to want to explore .

Interesting post, some of it naive, for example,

"but at the very core, do we identify ourselves by our tastes in food, soda, houses, or cars? No!"

Yes people do. It called status. Status, things people use to identify themselves with to show they are 'better' then other people.

Prime example of this is cars and houses. Big house, big car equals in our materialist society, lots of status/power. These are our society's values as twisted as they maybe. Going to good restaurant with egoistical cook. Why? Status. Lets face it food goes in one way and out the other, fulfilling our basic to run our bodies. Jobs; an overpaid actor/sportman are there to entertain us, yet a low paid health carer does more for society.

Status; rank, soical position, relative importance. These are some things that the majority of people in society define themselves by; the soda they drink, the food they eat, the house they live in and the car they drive.

Define normal?

Normal; conforming to standard; regular, usual, typical. Is the dictionary defination

Confoming to standard - nope, regular - yep usually once a day, usual - nope, typical - nope atypical.

Therefore I am not 'normal' or sane, which I quiet happy about.

Revolutions are good for society, only if the break the old habits of tradition
not replacing the old with the same.

As we old socialist say, "You never stop being a socialist, you just become more cynical with age"


Ok I know I've only take a small point from your post and expanded on it but it is, i believe, a fundmental point in your argument about being normal. To disreguard them out of hand saying they they are not important is wrong. So much of our Western Society is base on these 'status' symbols, it is what people define and aspire to is, the big house, the big car, drinking the right kind of soda. It how Western Society difines what normal is.

Normal equals sheep, comforming following the rules, being what you should be.

Abnormal equals an individual human, to look upon the stars and ask why are they there.

No offence meant just my :2c: :)

Hmmm why would I ever want to be considered "normal" . I am far from normal. I dress in sexy clothes both "male" and "female", become a superhero when I want to, I am gay (always have been since birth), I have fun at 50, I dance in the street, I sing out loud, I enjoy life no matter what it brings, I live my life as I see fit. "Normal" has never been me, not would I want that attached to me.

Once again, on the car/house issue. Perhaps I should phrase my argument this way. When someone asks you who you are, you don't respond with "I drive such-and-such a car" or "I live in a three story house." It's not central to your identity. Likewise, most people wouldn't say "I wear jeans and a t-shirt" or "I like brown shoes" in response to being asked who we are as a person. That is my argument regarding why the clothes we wear, the cars we drive, and the houses we live in.

and so on..and on.. so open ?

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Dorisnycd

Hmmm why would I ever want to be considered "normal" . I am far from normal. I dress in sexy clothes both "male" and "female", become a superhero when I want to, I am gay (always have been since birth), I have fun at 50, I dance in the street, I sing out loud, I enjoy life no matter what it brings, I live my life as I see fit. "Normal" has never been me, not would I want that attached to me.

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:thumbsup::love:

I am lost on this one. When the gay community formed groups to fight for their rights they eventually dropped the tgirls and butch woman for fear that they would not be percieved as "normal". I am still fighting against that!

"normal" is something society tries to put on us. When asked "who r u?" ....I don't know anyone that respends with..."I am normal!". I would think that if I heard that come from someone I would instantly think they are not!.

The key is simple....be who u are in ur heart. Own that. Be that. Be happy.

The world and life is never "easy". But if you go through it honest to yourself, however u see that, then you can always look back and say...I was me!

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Originally Posted by Valerie Nicole

Once again, on the car/house issue. Perhaps I should phrase my argument this way. When someone asks you who you are, you don't respond with "I drive such-and-such a car" or "I live in a three story house." It's not central to your identity. Likewise, most people wouldn't say "I wear jeans and a t-shirt" or "I like brown shoes" in response to being asked who we are as a person. That is my argument regarding why the clothes we wear, the cars we drive, and the houses we live in.

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But there are people who do use these things to identify themselves with. To some people the car they drive, the label on their clothes and the houses they live in ARE central to their on personal indentity.

'When someone asks you who you are, you don't respond with "I drive such-and-such a car"'

But you do, you say "I drive a Ford, BMW, VW, Merc, Nissan etc"

I hate brown shoes.........

To some people the label on their jeans IS important, the size of their house and area they live in, IS important and central to their identity.

It is just navie to dismiss it out of hand

You may think they are shallow & vain, I do, but I also understand why they use these items to identify with.

To some their religion is important, others its their sports team, or their sexuality, the town/city they come from, their family and even a person's nationality can important and central to their identity.

A persons core values, the way they identify themselves can include materialist items and it is blinkered and navie to say they don't.

You can't place your on personal values/experiences onto other people.

We are all individuals and have our own unique life experience which set our own core values which we use to identify ourselves. To some their core values may include having a big house, a flash car and designer clothes, sad but true.

To dismiss it negates your argument.

Remember, to the majority of us on this forum not being 'normal' IS central to our own personal identity.