Has anything bad happened to you when out?

There have been two incidents that creeped me out a bit.

About 11 years ago, I went shopping, in drab, in a big thrift store in Tucson, Arizona. There was a well-dressed (suit and tie) 30-something Hispanic man in the store, just wandering around, who made eye contact with me a couple of times and seemed to be watching me as I was trying on some (women's) shoes.

After I got done and paid for my new skirt and about three pairs of shoes, he appeared in front of me, blocking my exit from the store, and started yelling about how "God hates faggots," and the Bible says that men who wear women's clothes will burn in Hell. I kind of pushed my way around him without saying anything and made it out onto the street. He followed me out of the store, continuing to yell this abuse, down the length of the block and across the street until I got to my car. Other people on the street were definitely stopping and turning to watch the show.

At the last minute before I dove into the car and sped off, I said something like, "thank you for your concern about my immortal soul, but I guess I don't believe the same things that you do." I left him standing in the street and got out of there as quickly as possible. The situation did not turn violent, but it was more than a little creepy, and left me shaking for a few minutes. It was also disappointing that the store employees did, to my knowledge, absolutely nothing about it, even though he started his harangue inside their place of business. As far as I know, he might have gone right back in there to lie in wait for the next poor man shopping for women's clothes.

The second incident happened as I was leaving my nail salon after one of my biweekly appointments. I always dress up for these. The salon is in a strip mall and it was about a 100 foot walk from the door across the parking lot to my car. As soon as I stepped out the door, a man appeared on my left and said, "Sir, I want to talk to you. Why are you dressed like that?" I ignored him (after all, I'm not a "sir" when dressed up -- I acted like he was talking to somebody else) but he followed just a few feet behind as I walked to my car, yelling out "sir, I have a question for you" and "sir, stop and talk to me" all the way. He emphasized the "sir" part.

I just kept walking and got in my car. I doubt anything too bad could have happened there because I am well known and liked in the nail salon and I could always have run back there. In retrospect, the worst thing about it may have been realizing that I was so quickly read as I walked by!

Obviously these were a couple of, uh, "unbalanced" individuals -- the first probably a lot more than the second -- and neither one seemed intent on doing me any physical harm. But it's good to remember that they're out there, and prepare in advance how you will handle these situations. Both of these incidents happened at mid-day in bright daylight -- no apparent drugs, alcohol or cover of darkness involved.

- Diane

I'll go along with Katie B's answer--out of 1000 people, you might get one goof.At least for me. And they usually yell something like "hey dude" after I'm 20 feet past them.One time though, a group of young girls were standing outside of an office building,smoking,when I passed.They all started whistling, and "hey baby".Now, I don't know if I should chalk that one up as good or bad, cause I really enjoyed it!!

ps to Karen Hutton--that was funny!

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Originally Posted by Nicki B

So, if one bad thing has happened to you in 20 yrs of going out, that's all that counts? :strugglin

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It sure doesn't seem to be happening much does it.

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Batty, don't you see what I mean by creating a climate of fear? :sad:

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I would suggest that the numbers are the antidote to fear. They show that there is very little risk at all compared to what people imagine there is. Almost half have not even voted for "Some laughing or rude comments, nothing serious" but voted for "No, nothing" Which is HUGE!

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I've been laughed at, occasionally (but not for a few years now) - and I've been assaulted and had my nose broken (in a gay club, incidentally). But those are hugely outweighed by the number of times I've been out and people have been good to me - and when bad things have happened, ordinary decent people (men and women) have helped and stood up to be counted?

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So far everyones doing better than the local lesbians I know all of whom have had experiences with violence, often when objecting to being groped or on turning down mens advances.

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Batty, what are your personal experiences? How often do you get out and interact with the general public, or are you looking for justification to be fearful, too?

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When not- crossdressed I've been physically attacked many times, spat on so often i lost count, had an attempt to stab me and an attempt to run me over. That was all during my school years and 95% of it was in another town. That occured because I did not fit in though 'reasons' varied. Some thought I was gay or not masculine enough, some was because I did not hide my intelligence in a culture of anti-intellectualism, some was because I did not like sport etc, some was for being goth, I have been physically attacked for voluntarily reading once even and some was because people missread my race because of my eye shape and cheekbones (thought I was asian).

Since school I have had some minor verbal stuff for my goth attire but even that was many years ago.

However my gay and lesbian friends have suffered violence in some of that time. So I'm being gradual with going out. I have had enough experience with violence that I do not want any more, but nor am I willing to be repressed by fear of it. I'm also a lot more vulnerable than I used to be. Back when I faced violence more often I had a good deal of martial arts skill but these days I'm legally physically disabled and dependant entirely on public transport. So I'm being more careful and gradual about it.

Take a look over my pic threads, the nails are real for starters, the paint stays on them till it needs redoing so I go shopping with long red and other colour nails every week and my latest 'boy' pics thread shows that even my male appearance is often quite androgynous and I've worn eye makeup and black lipstick out often. In the Out and About section you'll find my 1st time out in public thread so you see at the time you thought I was finding excuses not to go out I actually have gone out for the first time fully en femme, in public, in my own town.

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You're asking these questions in a slanted way, can't you see that?

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Nope. I deliberatly asked it to get from people what the worst they'd experienced was so that in combination with this poll http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=93377 we could really see how little a problem going out is for the vast vast majority of people on this board and how dissproportionate the risk is to the level of fear.

If this is all the people here have to worry about, with a 42.15% chance of nothing happening at all bad during peoples entire out experiences, with a 46.28% that infrequent and uncommon minor and harmless coments or laughter is the worst that will happen and so far 0% actual physical violence then most CDs fears of violence are unjustified.

So far we can conclude that going out as a CD is safer now than going out as a Lesbian currently is in rural pubs or as a Goth was 16 years ago.

Now that you mention it Batty, I did have a bad experience in New Orleans a few years back at a club called Ruby-Fruit Jungle. There was this one guy there that just would not keep his hands off of my leg. He kept putting it back after I brushed it off. He was a friend of one of the party I was with.
Eventually he got a little rough and I ended up breaking his index and middle finger while pushing him back.
That was scary.

Zara

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Originally Posted by Lilith

Great topic Batty.

How could I have forgotten ? I was "chased" by a guy who had read me, which was terrifying. He caught me up and explained that he was also a CD-er..to prove it he showed me some of his pics that happened to be in his camera. We swapped a few details and parted amicably...if you are reading this...you know who you are :)

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When I read that I laughed hard. thats one hard way to make a friend. She should have known how you would have reacted.

AS to the pole I voted Nothing bad. I have only been out 4 times yesterday beening the last. But when It happens I should not be bothered by it I should think, why, Cuz I don't care what they think . Its my life to live and they can't live it for me, so to hell with them. If they have a small mind about it, they are the ones who are missing the best things in life. So there you go a work in progress (my life.) See you all later BABES HUGGS. :hugs::canada:

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

I lost $50 at the local casino enfemme!!! How friggin bad is that? That's a weeks worth of makeup!!!

Never had a problem out enfemme.. Figgured if there weren't more than two of them I could kick their ass's or at least do some major damage..

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Karren, I'd pity any poor fool that picked on you in a serious way.
I beat up enough of these fools in drab working as a bouncer so I feel good about that, but haven't ventured out dressed yet.
Will be prepared if I do though eventually and give it serious thought to avoid any place that could be trouble, I can't fight people anymore for med reasons and I'm OK w/ that now anyways, I know I had enough of it.

These fools though that want trouble seem never ending:brolleyes:

About the only negative things I've encountered over many years have been a few smiles by teenaged girls (always in groups) who read me, which is not really negative as I just smile back. But what about the good things that occur when I go out? That list would be long.

I think as a group we dwell too much on violence which might possibly happen if we go out. But think about it: a GG has a lot more to fear than we do if she's out alone in the evening.

Look, 99% of people don't notice or don't care. And as for the other 1%, well, it's my world too, so if they don't like seeing me dressed in the way I feel comfortable, then they can just jump off a bridge, because I am surely not going to stop being myself.

Cindi Johnson

Hello BattyBats!
Great thread! It shows that the thing we are all most hesitant about going out for (physical harm/assault) happens very seldom. I have only had a few laughs tossed my way. Usually I get compliments or positive comments. Last week a 20 something girl came up to me and said I had my "Patrick Swasye thing going, and it was going alright". A backwards compliment if ever I heard it. She did like my bright yellow skirt suit though with the 4' yellow heels.....so do I!

I wish we could choose more than one, I've had numbers 2,3 and 4 happen to me.

Carol

Just spending too much money on dresses,skirts,makeup,panties,bras and purses every week that I go shopping.

According to the poll results so far you have a 72 to 1 chance of having no reaction at all compared to the worst assault.

Being read is about the worst thing that has happened to me.

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Originally Posted by Julogden

I wish we could choose more than one, I've had numbers 2,3 and 4 happen to me.

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Well, I've now voted 1,2 & 5... And I've also been felt up on more than one occasion, both by men and lesbian women.

But some of these incidents may certainly occur because we have the appearance of women, not just because we are trans?

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Originally Posted by BattyBats

If this is all the people here have to worry about, with a 42.15% chance of nothing happening at all bad during peoples entire out experiences, with a 46.28% that infrequent and uncommon minor and harmless coments or laughter is the worst that will happen and so far 0% actual physical violence then most CDs fears of violence are unjustified.

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I still think your percentages give a distorted picture, because of the way you've asked the questions - actual numbers of events would give a clearer idea, particularly measured against the total number of times people have gone out? And they can give no indication of particular problem areas, or regions (which we probably avoid, anyway)?

For instance, a total of 390 voted on this poll?

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Originally Posted by suzy cool

According to the poll results so far you have a 72 to 1 chance of having no reaction at all compared to the worst assault.

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Sadly, you can't say that - because there is no indication of frequency?


I can only speak for myself, and perhaps those I know personally. In the last five years, I've been out an average of roughly 3 times a week - and the number of incidents I've suffered in the UK in that time has been tiny (and in the US, none). I've been out also in St Lucia, but I was certainly careful, there.

All bar one girl I know who have been physically assaulted were TS - and it could be argued they were treated primarily as women? I've only personally ever known one girl who has been raped, who was certainly targetted as trans.

But I don't think I'm being 'naive' when I say the overall risk is low - particularly if one is sensible, watches where and who with one goes, and doesn't allow alcohol or drugs to blunt your awareness too much? IOW, pretty much the same as for genetic women??? :strugglin

Looks ladies, I know that violence is the worst possible thing but it is not limited to us.
People get assaulted for their wallet/purse, for whatever...

Don;t forget that most people that could pose a violence threat are not the big strong guys but punks, they are the ones who feel like thy have to prove something...

I forgot to add one of my experiences, it was at a gay club and some twirp was acting all bad, I stood up and acted like I was about to beat his ass. He backed down pretty quick but I kept egging him on, he just ignored it.
No physical fight or anything. i feel ashamed now cause once he gave up I should have been cool with him so he would know us CD's are not psycho.
I was younger and still pretty new at the scene. :o

As far as the "God hates fags" ones who tell us that, now those I would probably stick my foot in their butt without a regret. That is uncalled for.

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Originally Posted by Nicki B

But I don't think I'm being 'naive' when I say the overall risk is low - particularly if one is sensible, watches where and who with one goes, and doesn't allow alcohol or drugs to blunt your awareness too much? IOW, pretty much the same as for genetic women??? :strugglin

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sounds good and sane to me ............. there are areas I would, as a GG, be catious in visiting in daylight, and would avoid like the plague after dark, unless I knew for certain one of the folks I knew and cared for were there and may be in trouble

Batty, You have to make your own judgement on going out, in your own particular circumstance. Do listen to your inside feelings! I agree with Nicki here:

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Originally Posted by Nicki B

.......I still think your percentages give a distorted picture, because of the way you've asked the questions - actual numbers of events would give a clearer idea, particularly measured against the total number of times people have gone out?.......

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The numbers will likely be skewed to fewer incidences because we don't go out anywhere near the amount of time GG's do and other minority groups unless you are 24/7. So obviously the more you go out, the more risk of a serious incident. I answered "nothing serious", but I only go out 5 or 6 times a year, and I carefully plan and time my outings for safety as well. So my fewer incidents is probably not indicitive of real random risk.

Just be careful and "trust your feelings Luke".

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Originally Posted by Jonianne

The numbers will likely be skewed to fewer incidences because we don't go out anywhere near the amount of time GG's do and other minority groups unless you are 24/7. So obviously the more you go out, the more risk of a serious incident.

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Good point, and age too. If I had figured myself out earlier in my life and went to the same places I did then it would be instant confrontation, 3, 4, 5. I picked 1 and 2, that's been my experience now at my age.:)

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Originally Posted by Katie B

Some day I think I'll compile a book on life risks - a list of the comparative chances of winning the lottery/being abducted by aliens/contracting cancer/being struck by lightning/dying from having a pig fall on your head /catching cold...

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dying from having a pig fall on your head....

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Now thats funny I had a pig fall on my head............ No not realy but that was very funny LOL:bs::jumping::lol::roflmao::thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Jonianne

The numbers will likely be skewed to fewer incidences because we don't go out anywhere near the amount of time GG's do and other minority groups unless you are 24/7. So obviously the more you go out, the more risk of a serious incident. I answered "nothing serious", but I only go out 5 or 6 times a year, and I carefully plan and time my outings for safety as well. So my fewer incidents is probably not indicitive of real random risk.

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I'm trying to remember from my statistics class the simplest way to explain this.

Ok. Say you roll two dice. If you get a 6 on one of them you get a doller.

Someone next to you rolls just one dice and if they get a six they get a doller.

The probability that each dice will roll a six does not change. Each dice is just as likely to result in a six. So while most people would say that the person with two dice is twice as likely to get a six and receive a doller that just isn't mathematically true. The 2nd person just has 2 1-in-6 chances!

If the person with two dice needs a six but the person with one dice needs a 1 or a 6 who has the best chance?

One person has 2 1-in-6 chances but the other person has a 2-in-6 chance! The second person has a much better chance of getting a doller because there is a smaller range of possible outcomes and a larger range of those outcomes results in a pay-out.

So the more someone goes out the more chances they accrue but the chance every single time they go out is still the same. It does not increase in danger every time they go out, the risk, the probability remains constant.

So a CD who goes out just once tomorrow has the same risk that one time that one who goes out every single day will have if they go out tomorrow.

Now the 'attacked beaten or assaulted' catagory has finally risen from 0% to 1.16%.

But that is not a measure of the individual risk of going out once because clearly even those who voted that had happened to them have not had that happen every time they go out. This poll measures the worst that goes out in the entire time a person has been going out making that percentage a measure of the persons risk of ever having that happen to them going by the experiences of those here who go out.

Considering the risk everyone takes any time they leave the house this is minute. Truly minute. And 46.82% are still saying 'no, nothing'.

Those are very good odds.
No casino would give people a 46.82% chance of winning. Lets add the two top catagories together, the 46.82% chance of nothing and the 45.09% chance of Currently there is a 91.91% chance of 'Some laughing or rude comments, nothing serious'.

That comes out as 91.91%

That's a 91.91% chance of nothing serious at all happening. 91.91% of the people who have gone out have had nothing serious bad happen to them.

Thats not that those who go out have no problem 91.91% of the time, it's a much lowere risk of bad things happening than that as most of those that do have bad things happen still don't have that happen very often.

It's 91.91% of CDs going out have had nothing serious happen to them AT ALL!

Well Batty, you have me baffeled. I will trust your "Dr. Spock" math skills. 91.9% odds of "nothing bad happening" sounds good to me and seems realistic!

Guys comin up for a phone number (i have no real femme voice so always afraid to speak they get fed up and left)

Men grabbing me ones in a while as i refuse to talk to them due to the reason mentioned above

Whistles and calling all sorts of femme names

songs/singing to me

the worst and most tragic.......................4 rape attempts ..............after talkin to me and refusing to reply them ...........they grab my arm..............then the forceful attempts will follow the last one was extremely fierce i had to run......this things happen not during the day though but in very early hours of the evening while there are still people on the streets (not many people though) .... i dont know why it happened like that......they just pull me by the side as if they want to talk, this things happen on college campus.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

The probability that each dice will roll a six does not change. Each dice is just as likely to result in a six.

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Statistically that's absolutely true, but only as far as it goes..

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So a CD who goes out just once tomorrow has the same risk that one time that one who goes out every single day will have if they go out tomorrow.

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But that's where your logic falls down - because the risk cannot be the same every time, unlike the roll of the dice - each situation/encounter is different - it depends on where you go and who you might meet?

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Originally Posted by Katie B

I've looked at Battybat's statistics and I agree with her -- the actual danger is far smaller than that!

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Personally, I'd very much agree - but I'd have to say my own experience is skewed by where I've been?

The Middle East and Africa would not be the same, nor, I would say, Thailand or India (for opposite reasons)?

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Admittedly, if we factor in poor SoSoft's experience the figures are altered, but not by as much as you'd think and the moral is probably not "Don't go out dressed", but "If you're going out, don't choose Africa"

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'Africa' covers a massive area and many huge countries - but as a whacking great generalisation, attitudes to women overall there are not good?

It's not a particularly safe place for genetic women, either? :sad:

The one advantage we may be able to use is that, when they react to you as a woman, they don't expect you to react with a male's strength? But if you're outnumbered, that's no great help - the best defence is always to run away..

yeah the attitude of African men towards women is nothing to write home about, but overall its not that bad. My situation is more of a coincidence that around that area there is/are a persistent women attackers i think its the teenagers around the staff residencial area cos in the house i live the neirbours daughter was attacked quite a number of times, and some attacks were made by the students themselves. Did i contribute to the attack i dont know.

Yeah Nicki B the last attack was the worst i was just walking this guy just came straight trying to touch me as i pushed him he made a certain remark as if he was suprised at my strength he then grabbed me and cos of the skirt i couldnt do much before i know it i was struggling to free myself all along he was trying to push me down.......he even succeded i couldnt shout... cos of my voice ..........i kept on struggling he then quicky stood up and left when he saw a passing car..........i couldnt believe it..........i almost broke my handset........... i left my shoes there i had to go back much later in drab to get my shoes back............it took me days and weeks to get over that experience, ...................phew! what a life for GGs i ponder!