On the "freedom" of GGs to wear whatever they want

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Originally Posted by Raya

One thing I keep constantly seeing around here is these passive-aggressive complaints about how women are "free" to wear men's clothes without fearing retribution from society. I think this type of thinking is ignorant and harmful.

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I agree with most of your analysis of the female struggle for equality. However, I disagree with your opening paragraph which makes it appear that crossdressers who have an admiration for women and the rights they have achieved are somehow taking a "passive-aggressive" attitude toward women and being ignorant. I like being a man, I love and admire women but I would not like to be one for many reasons including the fact that I think they have a far more difficult life than men, have more responsibilities piled upon them and are under far more pressure from their peers in matters such as appearance. However, being male is not without its own pressures, one of which is strict conformity to an artificial image of masculinity. This requires the wearing of drab, colourless clothing and the internalizing of most feelings and emotions. Over the course of a period of time (say a week), even though women must succumb to peer pressure about their appearance, they will have enjoyed a far greater variety of options regarding clothing, jewelry, makeup and in some cases even hair style, depending on their activities, than their male counterparts. For many, crossdressing is simply a means of escaping from the rigid demands of male existence, and enjoying a bit of what women have achieved for themselves. Call it envy, but it is not malicious, and drawing attention to this basic difference in society's attitudes can only help to increase understanding and acceptance.

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Originally Posted by Ema1234 Gg

I live in a city which has a huge student population and I regularly see guys walking around wearing make up or different items of female clothing. And nobody bats an eyelid

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You are observing a specific segment of the male population, i.e. student, age similarity, living away from home. If I, a 69 year old retiree, wore makeup to my family reunion or female clothing to do my gardening there would be plenty of eyelids batted and embarrassment all around.

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Originally Posted by Katie B

I'm not even sure that it's true that women can wear what they like, because the fashion fascists are lurking everywhere. Take these instances:

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This is true. However, the point is that while there are specific styles that are suitable for each situation, time or place, there can be a significant difference between each. They can be ultra feminine at a wedding, for instance, and super macho at the ball game, or refined but practical at the office. They can often choose between a dress, skirt and top, slacks and top or pant suit. They can wear a blouse, sweater, t-shirt, cami, halter top and so on, depending on occasion and weather. Such options are not as available to men. We are limited to "dress vs casual" in varying degrees depending on the occasion.

Veronica

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Originally Posted by emmicd

Advertising is geared to thin and well proportioned model types.

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Umm... Don't you mean anorexic? :idontknow:

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Originally Posted by Raya

One thing I keep constantly seeing around here is these passive-aggressive complaints about how women are "free" to wear men's clothes without fearing retribution from society. I think this type of thinking is ignorant and harmful.

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So when one section of society cannot exercise the same rights as another section of society they should not point out this inconsistency? Seems to me a healthy thing to do so that equality can be reached for all.

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What good does it really do when we attack women for enjoying the rights everybody should have had from the beginning?

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Why are you reading "attacking" women - why are you not reading people's desire to have the same rights? Are we CDs not bemoaning that fact that some people, both men and women, do not want CDs to have this freedom? Where are these specific attacks on women?

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but should they wear them they'll have to deal with every part of society that assumes that women dress the way they do for the sole purpose of giving men a hard-on.

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Funny, last time I listened, women always say they dress for themselves to please themselves. They did not dress for men. The only people who seem to think they dress for men is well...men.

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Women had to fight for every freedom they enjoy today

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Sure they did and guess what they stood up and pointed out the inequality where they as women did not have the same freedoms as men and complained about it over and over again building up momentum and slowly changed society's point of view until it became acceptable.

I have no idea why you think the CD community is blaming women when all we are doing is pointing out the inequality. That is part and parcel of the fight.

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Originally Posted by Satrana

So when one section of society cannot exercise the same rights as another section of society they should not point out this inconsistency? Seems to me a healthy thing to do so that equality can be reached for all.

I have no idea why you think the CD community is blaming women when all we are doing is pointing out the inequality. That is part and parcel of the fight.

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Firstly you as CDR's have the right in the free world to dress as you choose ....... now if you choose not to then that is YOUR CHOICE

There is no inequality except in your mind

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Originally Posted by Sheila

There is no inequality except in your mind

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Sure but I will lose my job, house, family, friends in the process. No inequality there......

I would like to dress in normal clothes of my choosing without putting everything in my life on the line.

You can say that quote to just about anyone facing inequality. What is stopping you, just do it!...... Except there are real consequences and that is the inequality I face not whether it is technically possible to do something or not.

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Originally Posted by Satrana

Sure but I will lose my job, house, family, friends in the process. No inequality there......

I would like to dress in normal clothes of my choosing without putting everything in my life on the line.

You can say that quote to just about anyone facing inequality. What is stopping you, just do it!...... Except there are real consequences and that is the inequality I face not whether it is technically possible to do something or not.

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You do not know that as a certainty . you make assumptions based on fear . and it's understandable we all do it:hugs::hugs:

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

Advertising is often geared towards what men find attractive.

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I've read articles on a jumber of studies that put mens average ideal woman as a size 14-16 (like Marilyn Monroe) curvaceuos figured redhead. Far from the deathly thin size 10 blondes that seem to be so frequently in magazine and telivision advertising.

I don't think advertising is at all keyed to what men find attractive. Otherwise those studies would have imediatetly shifted media advertising to curved redheads.

But being a curved size 16 redhead is easier for more women than being an emaciated blonde meaning that it would be easier for more women to fit that image, to consider themselves attractive when they fit that image and then they will shop less. Resulting in less profit.

Images of unattainable and impossible beauty associated with products, often with dubious claims, is a well-known successful way to sell things. The side effect may be that the majority of women, all of whom are beautiful in their own unique combination of all shapes sizes and colours think they are ugly and are miserable. To make a profit lives are harmed and ruined. And those who try and buck the trend find it hard to compete because the evil method is also efficient because the advertisers don't have to pay for the deadly consequences.

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Originally Posted by Sheila

You do not know that as a certainty . you make assumptions based on fear . and it's understandable we all do it:hugs::hugs:

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I think you need to look at some things. The Transgender Day of Rememberance to start with and the dissproportion of violence against and suicide of TG people, the bullying rates of TG kids, the divorce rates for TG people, the homelessness rates, the fact that in much of the 'free world' you can't discriminate based on sex, race or religion but you can sack someone for CDing in their oen time away from work or refuse to rent to them.

It's important to consider the difference between rights and legally recognised rights. It's important to recognise that peer pressure and oppression are real forces with real effects. Thats why in most of the 'free' world affirmative action was needed for minorities to begin to approach fair representation in the workforce politics and education because their is overt oppression and covert oppression.

These must be fought. But pretending they aren't there wont overcome them. We need to say 'these obstacles are in our path and we will make them visible, oppose them and dissassemble them!'

That is what has worked for every other civil rights movement. We are not any different!

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Originally Posted by Sheila

You do not know that as a certainty . you make assumptions based on fear

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Incorrect. I can guarantee that I would lose my job because I am the public face of my company, and if I don't find another well paying job quickly I can guarantee that I will lose my house. And I can guarantee that I would lose some family and friends because I know their feelings on matters of gender and sexuality.

I am not an irrational person, I don't fear things which are unlikely to ever happen. I do fear things which have a high certainty.

Crossdressers are amongst the most discriminated groups in society. While it is true that CDs usually grossly overestimate the degree of public hostility they are likely to encounter, this is often due to the fact that they are very careful how and where they crossdress and plan everything in advance.

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Satrana said: <snip> While it is true that CDs usually grossly overestimate the degree of public hostility they are likely to encounter, this is often due to the fact that they are very careful how and where they crossdress and plan everything in advance.

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It's not just the openly public hostility. It's the way people see us, and treat us, when we're not even yet aware of it, it's exactly the same as other minorities have been treated over the years. We're assumed to be 'lesser' qualified to do anything than others, and more likely to be somehow involved in illicit or criminal behavior. We're less likely to receive equal care because we're seen as less valuable to society.

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Originally Posted by Sheila

Firstly you as CDR's have the right in the free world to dress as you choose ....... now if you choose not to then that is YOUR CHOICE

There is no inequality except in your mind

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Hi Sheila,
Yes your right you can wear what you like just so long as you dont mind the consequences that may well come with it. Recently a work colleague found out that my fella dresses. Funnily enough she was in charge of diversity and equal opps when she worked for the council. Even more strangely enough she doesn't have much to say to me nowadays. In some places you can actually lose your job for it, although they dress it up as something else. I have been very surprised at just how narrow minded some employers have been about CDs and how ignorant they are of the CD community. There are still people out there that think if a man wants to wear womens clothes then he is a danger to certain groups of society, namely children. As I work in the childcare industry as a Development Officer I wouldn't like to take the chance that my employers wouldn't pass judgement.
I think one thing we are slightly overlooking in this thread though is the fact that when a women dresses in what has been traditionally classed as mens clothes she is often doing so for practical reasons or its a fashion statement, she isn't actually giving out the message to society that she wants to look like a man.
Take care
Bev

Bev,

I believe that it is an employers right to dictate proper attire wheil a person is at work and on the clock. On the other hand, when a person is not at work, the employer has no rights or cotrol over that person's life. As long as that person is not engaging in illegal activities, then their life in not the employer's business. In other words, if you are crossdressed and you run into someone from work while shopping at Walmart, it is not your employers business. The thing that really bothers me is that a lot of crossdressers cower in the closet forever because they are worried about being seen by someone that they work with. In my opinion, that is just wrong and is one of the reasons that crossdressers don't really advance as a group.

As any group. you can never, ever, ever allow anyone to strip you of your right to freedom! When you are not at work, you have the right to dress as you wish. I really wish that crossdressers wouldn't give society the right to usurp their basic freedom. Black people, gays, and other folks would NEVER stand for having their rights compromised.

On another related thought:

We have people at work that are alcoholics and always in trouble with the lae, others are nudists that belong to clube, some are wife-swappers! These folks are still employed. Why does everyone think that crossdressers are so bad? What really is the big-deal? I believe that many times part of the problem is in the crossdresser's mind. Look at Rudy Guilanni. He admitted to being a crossdresser and was a successful politician. If you don't make a big deal of it, then other folks probably won't either. Just don't do the crossdressing at work. It is illegal for an employer to fire a person for their private life's as long as they are not committing illegal acts.

If crossdressers live their life worried about encountering someone that they work with in their provate life then they are giving up their basic freedoms and probably won't advance as a group over the next 100 years. When you are not at work, get out there and be proud of who and what you are. You are not doing anything illegal, so please don't give you employer power over you when you are not on the clock. Please be part of the solution and don't give up our rights. If someone from work sees you, it is not your problem. You are not on the clock and therefore your employer is not paying you for how you are dressed.

It was not an easy road for any minority and there were battles to be fought and won. Also, most minorities stood up for their rights or they would not have the freedoms that they enjoy today.

:2c: Jamie

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Originally Posted by Bev06 GG

Hi Sheila,
Yes your right you can wear what you like just so long as you dont mind the consequences that may well come with it. Recently a work colleague found out that my fella dresses. Funnily enough she was in charge of diversity and equal opps when she worked for the council. Even more strangely enough she doesn't have much to say to me nowadays. In some places you can actually lose your job for it, although they dress it up as something else. I have been very surprised at just how narrow minded some employers have been about CDs and how ignorant they are of the CD community. There are still people out there that think if a man wants to wear womens clothes then he is a danger to certain groups of society, namely children. As I work in the childcare industry as a Development Officer I wouldn't like to take the chance that my employers wouldn't pass judgement.
I think one thing we are slightly overlooking in this thread though is the fact that when a women dresses in what has been traditionally classed as mens clothes she is often doing so for practical reasons or its a fashion statement, she isn't actually giving out the message to society that she wants to look like a man.
Take care
Bev

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Hi Jamie,
Not totally true honey. I work for County Council as a Childcare Development officer and on or off duty I am considered an ambassador for them and a role model for children. It has been made very clear that my conduct out of work definitely reflects on them. Now dont get me wrong they wouldn't sack me for something my partner was up to. I doubt if they would sack me if I were to cross dress. However, I dont think theyde be too keen on me being a drunkard out of work hours and would soon be looking for an excuse to get rid of me before i bought shame on them.
On the CD front and not letting someone have power over me and fighting a cause. I regularly defend CDing as most of my friends and associates know of my involvement through a dressing service I used to provide, eventhough mostly they dont know about my partner. However, I have to say its not my cause to fight Jamie. I think its about time some of the CDs who are always moaning about acceptance stood up and ruddy well fought at my side instead of hiding behind me and showed me the support that I am constantly showing them.
Take care
Bev

Getting back to the topic... ;)

We should surely not be judgemental about what others wear - if we wish the same respect to be applied to ourselves? :strugglin

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

I believe that it is an employers right to dictate proper attire wheil a person is at work and on the clock.

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This has in the past been used to deny employment to a variety of Religious and Cultural groups as well as to Women back before laws on men and womens apparel were relaxed.

As such it is vital that while an employer may be able to dictate standard of dress and have a uniform that this must always and without exception except for OH&S rules where completely unavoidable in any way allow for religious and cultural wear from a Christians crucifix to a Sihks turban to a Goths piercings.

So then it is only ever going to be just if the Employer can set a Uniform but the CD can choose either or even a combination of the two.

Untill this is the case the Employer is engaging in direct clear bigotry and oppression whether for their own bias or a perceived or actual bias in their customers.

A unifrom or clothes standard that does not allow for crossdressing is every bit as wrong as a whites only rule or a no religious-symbols rule.

It matters not an iota if it is legal. It is wrong!

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Originally Posted by Sheila

You do not know that as a certainty . you make assumptions based on fear . and it's understandable we all do it:hugs::hugs:

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Well, as much as I would like to think this is true... I've learned the hard way that its not.

In 97, just before I started dressin up, I met a pre-op TG who became a really good friend. She worked in a high paying job as a collections agent in the buildings where I worked as Director of Security.
Without going into the LONG story and all of its cruelties... she was "discovered" by a coworker while changing in the ladies room. She had been at that company for 10 years and no one batted an eye until that day. Legally, there was nothing anyone could do about her being there as she had a spotless record, BUT... the supervisors started writing her up for mundane things that were overlooked previously and "complaints" were filed anonymously with building management about "That thing on the 6th floor" weekly by the same group from her company. Everyone knew who they were, but no one did anything.
Management even went as far to advise me not to talk to her while on my lunchbreak because it owuld be bad for the company (although they could never explain their reasoning for such assinine statements). I refused to change how I conducted my normal day to day work and was "removed" from my job through a contract rewrite that effectively did away with my position.
My friend was fired from her job a week later.

None of this was RIGHT! Nothing had changed within the work place or performance of such work other than people KNEW there was a TG in their midst and did everything within their power to remove her and anyone associating with her.

I dont regret losing my job over being true to myself and my friends,but I do regret having to work for people who are ignorant.

Anyways... thats my story ;)

*hugs*

Zarabeth

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

As any group. you can never, ever, ever allow anyone to strip you of your right to freedom! When you are not at work, you have the right to dress as you wish. I really wish that crossdressers wouldn't give society the right to usurp their basic freedom. Black people, gays, and other folks would NEVER stand for having their rights compromised.

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They did consent to having their rights compromised until very recently. It takes time for a community to organize and convince itself that it should stand up for its rights. The CD community is very young and very fragmented. We talk to each other anonymously over the internet, most CDs never attend any CD events. As isolated individuals we naturally look after our own interests first.

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Look at Rudy Guilanni. He admitted to being a crossdresser and was a successful politician.

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He never admitted to being a CD, he crossdressed for publicity/charity events.

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If you don't make a big deal of it, then other folks probably won't either.

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Depends on what the behavior is. Would you want to work alongside a convicted child molester or someone who belonged to the local Nazi party? If the behavior is considered a threat or sufficiently immoral then people will act against you.

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so please don't give you employer power over you when you are not on the clock.

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All the employment contracts I have signed have contained clauses which gives them to right to fire you if you give cause for embarrassment to the company. This is lawful and common to anyone who deals with the public on behalf of the company.

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

Bev,

On the other hand, when a person is not at work, the employer has no rights or cotrol over that person's life. As long as that person is not engaging in illegal activities, then their life in not the employer's business. In other words, if you are crossdressed and you run into someone from work while shopping at Walmart, it is not your employers business. The thing that really bothers me is that a lot of crossdressers cower in the closet forever because they are worried about being seen by someone that they work with. In my opinion, that is just wrong and is one of the reasons that crossdressers don't really advance as a group.

........It is illegal for an employer to fire a person for their private life's as long as they are not committing illegal acts.

........If someone from work sees you, it is not your problem. You are not on the clock and therefore your employer is not paying you for how you are dressed........

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Did you not hear about the CD'er truck driver for Winn-Dixie that had nearly 20 years of good work that was fired for exactly that - dressing in his "off time"? Even the ACLU would/could not help him. His company asked him if he was Gay and when he said he wasn't, they fired him. This was all on the national news a few years ago.

Does anyone know any further on that story?

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Originally Posted by LACD

Society is changing but we won't see change anytime soon.

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I know that with the internet we have people viewing from all over the world, and possibly from space, even (Wonder if there are any CrossDressing Martians???). However, I live in the US so can really only speak from that point of view.

Our country was founded in the 1700's, our constitution wasn't amended until 1920 to allow women the right to vote.There were 18 amendments prior to that one, by the way.

Society is slow to change, as you have to change the minds of a lot of people in order to make that change happen, and some of those minds are pretty Neanderthal, which isn't pretty, matter of fact.

Kate

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

As any group. you can never, ever, ever allow anyone to strip you of your right to freedom!

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People not only allow folks to strip them of their freedoms, they hand them over on a silver platter. Usually to the government. Usually out of fear. People in a group can be very cattle-like. One sees something that spooks it and starts running away and the rest run away also.

"Why you running, Bossie?"

"I don't know, that Gurnsey over there started running and I don't wanna get caught by whatever scared her!"

I don't know if a large portion of voters are stupid or simply don't bother to figure out what a proposed law means before they vote on it or allow their "representatives" to vote on it, but a lot of laws are like chocolate covered turds, they look nice or have a nice name, but what's really in there is nothing like the name implies at all.

I don't want to turn this political so I won't mention specifics, but I have great fear for the future of all countries if people don't start worrying about their freedoms and start holding on to them dearly.

Kate