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I think it's inevitable that society will become more accepting as time goes on. Just look at the strides made by the gay and lesbian community over the past forty or fifty years. With CDs, it's already starting to happen, at least in more urban areas and among the younger generation.
Crystal
Yes, but for society to be more accepting it has to see more of us. The more CDers that come out of the closet and live their lives as ordinary people, the more accepting society will become. Most people think of us as Drag Queens or some other sort of weirdo. Once people see that, in most respects, we're ordinary people who just want to go about our lives, acceptance will come.
Not everyone, no matter what their "bent" is is accepted everywhere. We are no exception. Also, one can't legislate the way people feel. People are entitled to their opinions. I mean people don't HAVE to like us or what we do or are. What we should be shooting for is (at least) knowledge that we are not all weirdos (thank you Jerry Springer, and movies that portray so many Cd, and Tg people as serial killers and perverts), that what we are doing is not illegal, and that social politeness applies to us, just like the other lifestyles that fit the first 2 points of this sentence. It would also be nice if people would call out those people that speak unkind, untrue, etc. remarks about us. That will take some time I am afraid, and more than 25 yrs. However, unless we ourselves continue to go out and meet people, and educate them, all they will have to believe in will be what's on tv and the movies. Sooooooo...... get out there ladies, have fun, and engage freely with people that are curious. That is an opportunity we should embrace!!!:gh:
It would be nice to think so but I don't think it will happen in my life.
time
Sadly I don't think it CDing will ever be accepted in mainstream society. If a person who crossdresses doesn't accept themselves then how is society expect to do so. Then there are the CD's who just dress for the sexual thrill so can you imagine a 50 something year old man who looks like a lumberjack showing up at a local Walmart dressed in a mini skirt and heels?
Another example of why we will never be accepted is because so many of us won't even share something as important as our feminine side with our wife or SO before we get into a relationship with them, instead we hide it for years then spring it on them later and expect them to be supportive.
I'm sure I will offend someone with these remarks but please understand I don't mean to offend anyone here, everyone has been so nice in welcoming me to this forum and for that I am thankful to all of you.
Just my thoughts
Linda
If society would change to accept the feminine more... if the dominant paradigm was not patriarchal and masculine, and instead would honor the feminine (and Divine Feminine)... the world would be better for women, girls, the transgendered, GLB, etc... Let us work to make it so...
Don't make me start the ::coughLiberalHandWringingcough::, please, cause I'll totally do it. I'm a liberal, and yes, there are places in the world where women do not get treated equally, but by the same token, I get the same crap because I'm a tall white male in reverse discrimination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Debutante
Women, and conversely, we, need to go out and make our own way in the world, and one-up the people who try to stand in our way. You need to let their crap just make you stronger. Sorry if this opinion makes anyone here get ancy, but I've seen too many people complain that they're being held back for one reason or another, when it's more that they allow themselves to be held back so they can be a victim.
As was already said here, I think that the more we accept ourselves, and work with our loved ones to accept us, the faster everyone can accept us. We just need to destroy the stereotypes that surround what we do and live how we want.
Sorry but that is such a generalized statement that it's just incorrect. And the economy is off topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
I predict that crossdressing will be acceptable in the year 2080. To bad I won't be around to say I told you so...
Yes! of course we have to do the work... do our part... struggle for personal change...I know that. I was making a macro observation. But a fundamental change to a feminine paradigm certainly is a goal we might strive for...Quote:
Originally Posted by kathrynjanos
In the late 80's when I finally got my hands on some goth clothing goths were feared, hated and not acepted. Today there is one that goes against stereotype on NCIS, there are Goth kids shows. It's been about 10 years since i got a shouted insult or bad reaction for being goth.
General acceptance for extremely different and hated people is possible within 10 years at least and my daily life as a Goth proves that!
And Goths didn't conform, didn't tone-down, didn't try to fit in but did the opposite. Were outrageous and weird. We sat in parks and discussed poetry, we moved through shopping malls alone and in groups. And we bought goth things from stores and made and sold goth things at markets and eventually the internet.
The end result? Even in rural towns there are out goths, there is globally goth media of every imaginable sort, goth video games, goth industry, goth business, goth market.
And people realised we were mostly friendly, polite, intelligent and harmless.
In the western world goths are widely accepted.
Us crossdressers can do exactly the same. Carefully to be safe (most goths stuck to specific accepting clubs and to public places at first where violence is uncommon) but we can.
Progress isn't inevitable. Change happens when people change things and encourage others to do the same. Peiople have been making the change thus far. So long as more join them more will change but if they are not helped then when the generations change and older changers burn out from exhaustion it can collapse.
So then, we are all benefiting now from the work of CDs and TSs and DQs and DKs of the last several decades.
The question you must ask is, do you want things to keep changing? Then join in bringing about the change! Do you want things to change faster? Then do more to change things!
But if you don't help you are not just riding the coat-tails of the hard work of others but also risking all that has been gained thus far!
CDing has been accepted in many societies throughout history. Cding can be accepted generally within our lifetimes!
So then, what will you do about getting that acceptance?
It depends (to a degree) where you live, some places seem to be more backward than others - but I'd say in many places it's already happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenSusan
I've just got home after attending a 40th birthday party in the Midlands (in a football club bar) - Kieron & I were the only trans people there and we were welcomed and completely accepted by people of all ages (8-70)?
It's my experience that we often meet with approval and encouragement, for being brave enough to show the world who we really are... Don't underestimate ordinary, decent people?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily01
Society's not just gonna change by itself though, is it? It will only change by the actions of us as individuals showing others we exist and that we're nothing to fear or despise? :strugglinQuote:
Originally Posted by Debutante
Yes goth people are more accepted now. The one BIG difference is goth people aren't trying to live as a different gender. They are just changing thier appearance to the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
It's quite a bit different for CD's we've got to change our appearance to that of the other gender in order to be who we are.
It is a good example of how society changes and accepts different types of people but getting society to accept a gender bender or CD will be quite alot more difficult.
Hope i didn't offend you.
ttfn
I'm not offended.Quote:
Originally Posted by bredalee25
But it's true that for many people mixing gender is seen as worse than crossing over from one gender to the other. Yet Goth is filled with Gender Mixing.
Just look at Marilyn Manson for starters. Guys in makeup with painted nails and man-skirts are common amongst goths.
Thats all gender-bending, and of a more confronting form than a conservatively dressed CD who fits peoples expectations. And yet it is getting regular acceptance!
But, the thing is, Drag Queens are ordinary people, too! They might be more flamboyant and out there than the average CDer, but they are no more weird than you are. The average person who doesn't struggle with gender identity just has no reason to learn what all the different types and levels of gender are. Since I found out about my SO's crossdressing, I have made a point to learn about these things, but before that, I didn't realize there was a difference between being transsexual and transgendered, I had NO clue what cisgendered was, I thought transsexual, transgendered and drag queen were interchangable... It's just a question of education, really, and public perception. But, yeah. Drag queens? No weirder than a cross dresser. Just different.Quote:
Originally Posted by PamelaTX
Well, but not all CDers are trying to live as a different gender. I've read a huge amount of posts here from CDers who don't give a hoot if they're read. My SO has no desire to present as a woman-- he likes to wear a bra and forms with his regular clothes (though he does wear significantly tighter tops when he's in the forms. :heehee:).Quote:
Originally Posted by bredalee25
And, really, there are people out there who would argue that CDers are "just trying to change their appearance to the world." You would probably argue that, and say, "How do YOU know? You don't CD, you don't know what it's like." You would be correct-- but it's just as impertinent for you to assume you know what goth kids have gone through, and what they are trying to portray to the outside world.
There is no hierarchy of suffering, here. Goth kids don't have it any better or worse-- they just have different struggles.
ETA: So, yeah! I never answered the OP. I think CDers will eventually be more accepted, yes. It's already happening. Anyone here into anime and manga? They are chock full of gender bending! I think things will continue to become more open. I also think there will always be close-minded people who won't accept anyone who is different from the 'norm.' Fifty years ago, do you think ANYONE would have thought that gay couples would be able to legally get married ANYWHERE? It's still a struggle. It's still not legal everywhere. Gays are still persecuted. But do you see the progress that has been made? It's not enough, I don't think, and I am still horrified about the whole Prop 8 thing, but if you compare it to where this country was fifty years ago, it's like night and day. I think that same thing can happen with CDing.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
Margaret Mead
Yes, Vicki... as I said just at the end of my quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicki B
"let us work to make it so".
Changing the paradigm isn't done by a simple wish... It takes work. But educating ourselving as to the greater problem is a start -- and we start by taking small individual steps, changing (by accepting ) ourselves, working as groups, doing coalition work, getting ourselves out there in public, speaking with friends, doing education, etc. etc.
I did political work in the Boston area in the 1990s: co-founded a TG support group: AXA; founded the Trans Gendered Alliance -- which did political work for the political and civil rights of the transgendered.
we have seven chidren, ranging in age from 22 down to 14. All of them accept thier father as a transgendered person. And all their close friends and partners do too.
As their mother I am very proud of each of them. This is how we raised them, to be accepting (not just tolerant) of all people, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion.
Carin and I are going through a divorce. It is incredibly hard for both of us. We have tired to honor respect and integrity throughout this process. For ourselves and most importanly our children.
On Tuesday we will welcome in a new president. I did not believe we would see a person of color as president in my own lifetime. And I will see it and celebrate.
I do believe that in our lifetimes we will see full acceptance of the transgended community.
Louise.
I doubt it will happen in my lifetime...
Not anytime soon, I'm afraid
JoAnne Wheeler
In time, people will be able to dress however they want. Society's big problem with anything sexual, whether overly sexual in appearance or nature, or non-conforming to one sex or the other, will subside. Look how different things are now from the 50's.
As the generations of small-minded, different-hating, intolerant people die off, the rules will change because each new generation is more accepting of social differences than the last. The problem is I, and many of us, will die off with them. :( Our time is unfortunately not infinite.
To echo many of the other posts, I believe it will happen. I just won't be around or young enough to enjoy the benefits.
For the record, I'm one of those who wants to pass, period. I don't have any problem with anyone who doesn't mind looking like a man in women's clothes - to each his/her own. I prefer to look like a woman when I'm wearing women's clothes. I love women so much, I really want to look as feminine as possible when I dress. I wouldn't want to be seen en femme unless I was completely made up and could achieve a minimum level of passibility, even if society accepted crossdressing as a normal form of self-expression rather than some horrible deviant behavior.
If history does in fact repeat itself then yes men will get to wear intimate apparal. In the past men wore corsets, wigs and long flowing gowns. I want to know which of our stupid forefathers gave up our right.
(a simple one word answer)
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NO[/SIZE]
I work and socialise as Mirani.
I know having my own business helps, as I make my own rules!
Before Christmas, I met with my account manager at the bank. I told her that I wanted to sign papers and cheques as Mirani. She said "easy" all I did was give a specimen signature and she added Mirani to the account.
I live in Brighton. I am treated as an "ordinary" person whatever I do, wherever I go. Sometimes I am as invisible as anyone else, just going about my business. Sometimes I am seen as a guy dressing as a woman.
I am accepted here.
Society is accepting TG's more than used to. Now if we can just get more employers to hire us for our capabilities instead of what they see. Some do hire TG's I would just like to see all do this. Be nice to see a TG in the White House.
Hugs,
Tamera
Pre-emptive apologies to anyone this may insult
Father Pat and father Mike were walking and Pat says, "Mike do you ever think priests will be allowed to marry?" and Mike answers "Not in our lifetime but maybe in our children's lifetime." I think that may apply to us...maybe in our children's
I suspect Lori is headed for time out on that
I'm guessing you mean me.. :heehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Debutante
I was trying to use your words as a more general prompt for people - I didn't intend to question your individual commitment, sorry.