How to tell if local laws against crossdressing?

It is a matter of sensibilities and venue. My (very nonpassable) TGing friend dresses in a nebulously sissified fashion that favors satiny silk fabrics, earrings, very light makeup and her own modest breasts. No male clothes, but nothing real femmey either. And has the run of a medium sized community nearby. The local police and townies know her, snigger and smirk whenever they see her.... but leave her be. Contrast that against going around in classic fetish drag with tall heels in a lame dress with gartertops, garish makeup etc. Drawing attention, alarming children, causing dogs to bark and upsetting JQ Public who calls the authorities.... Now, that same garish CD can go and do whatever on the Sunset Strip and go virtually unnoticed. Good and decent cops know ways to hassle whoever they want legally. Fringe cops will write their own rules anywhere anytime, legal or not. As the Chinese say: "The nail that sticks up, will be hammered down"... It's all a matter of how much abuse you are willing to attract and accept while pursuing your liberties. Just my :2c:..... I KNOW there are exceptions and alternatives and over generalizations in all the above.... Like I said, it was :2c: worth.

I've been a lawyer for more decades than I'm going to admit here and I've never heard of any current laws against crossdressing. There may be some old ones in isolated places that are not enforced, but none that I'm personally familiar with. In Maine there is even a law protecting us against discrimination(that's right CDs specifically) so around here I'm not worried about it. Most cops are way too busy enforcing real laws to bother with us anyway unless of course we are commiting some other offense. The most common ones among CDs are drunk driving, disorderly conduct(usually while drunk) and prostitution. My advice to those who don't want to have unpleasent encounters with the police when dressed is to stay away from the bottle when dressed. And if you do imbibe, don't drink too much and don't drive.

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Originally Posted by Melinda G

Second, you go and fight the good fight, and get back to me on how it works out for you, and how much it costs in lawyer fees. If you go looking for trouble, you can usually find it.

My point was that a guy in heels and a dress, and no makeup or wig, is more likely to attract unwanted attention, than the same guy in heels, dress, makeup and a wig, who is at least making an effort to pass.

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I have already "fought the good fight", several times; the only thing it cost me was the courage to try. You can read about my experiences in some of my threads. For example, I got laughed at once by some young people as I walked by them on the sidewalk of a shopping mall in heels that turned out to be metal tipped on the bottom and so were loudly clacking on the concrete. Inside the mall, I was treated completely respectfully by the adults.

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Originally Posted by Melinda G

I really feel that if someone is going to dress and go outside, they should at least make an effort to pass, and not simply try to test the limits.

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Well, sure, if you ego is fragile enough that it can't stand up to a laugh from some ignorant 20 year olds, or a stare from a woman who had a permanent scowl on her face before she even saw you, then by all means, hide inside or spend hours prepping yourself to be as perfect an imitation female as you can. I, though, am not an imitation female: I am transgendered, and I wear clothes clothes appropriate for a transgendered person.

Am I likely to be given problems by the local police? Not if I am "decent" (genitals covered) and am just going about my business, How do I know this? Because our club invited the police in to talk us about the legal situation, and the police made it clear that what we were doing was completely legal, and that there were specific police diversity policy training about cross-dressing; and they gave us a number to call if the police were not respectful to us. I have passed by the police while I am visibly "gender-bending" many times: they glance at me for no longer than they glance at anyone else ("situational awareness") and keep right on going.

Also, the police know that they have too much to lose if they harass a cross-dresser (even one who is making no attempt to "pass") who has a look of self-confidence: too much chance that the cross-dresser is known to our social club, and our social club has a very good reputation in the city. Recall that the Stonewall Riots were not triggered by the police coming in looking to harass the gays: the Stonewall Riots were triggered by the police coming in looking to harass the cross-dressers and the (much larger) gay community protected the cross-dressers. Any cop in the city with his or her ear to what is going on in the "alternative communities" would know that the organized GLBT community holds our club in high esteem, and that any notable harassment of cross-dressers would be likely to have multiple alternative communities protesting on our behalf. I don't mean that we are "above the law", just that the police are not about to harass us for cross-dressing.

(How well respected are we in the GLBT community? Well enough that the annual Pride parade organizers specifically ask us to be on the lead float.)


This city isn't perfect: the aboriginal people are harassed (or worse) by the police entirely disproportionately. The city has the largest urban population of aboriginal peoples in Canada, and most of the mayors are effectively elected by the white conservative business people (the press labels the rest as "fringe" candidates and somehow they don't get invited to the candidate debates nor receive more than a paragraph of press about their ideas.) The result has been a succession of mayors largely clueless about how to humanely deal with the substantial difficulties of the aboriginal communities, but whom are meanwhile pressured to "clean up" the city so that customers aren't driven away. "Clean up" is, you may recognize, often a code word for "We don't consider these people to be fully human, so don't take the time to come up with -real- solutions, just apply some tasers and load up the paddy wagons and get them out of our sight!"

Virtually any visible aboriginal person in this city gets harassed and discriminated against more often just for being aboriginal, than I ever get for visibly pushing gender boundaries. Indeed, I rarely get trouble from anyone (and certainly none that I can't just smile and walk away from) -- what I get instead is a surprising number of smiles and people talking to me and pleased that I am there and welcomed back. I have taken risks that you clearly would never consider taking, and instead of being shunned for it, I am largely treated equally or even socially rewarded. Trail-blazing is risky, yes, but at least in Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Toronto, and Hamilton (some of the largest Canadian cities), my experiences have been quite positive,

And if your answer to that is that you aren't talking about Canada, that Canada is somehow inexplicably different, then your warnings ought to be qualified to be confined only to those areas that you have personal experience (or trusted testimony about), rather than scare-mongering that cross-dressers world-wide need to be near-perfect before they dare to go out. If you have experience or evidence about (say) Pictoria or Wawa, then out with it -- but as long as you continue to make blanket statements about how scared we all ought to be, how we should "Tell absolutely no-one!", then I intend to challenge you on your absolutism.

I tell new people more days than not; the typical response I get is, "Let's see what we can find for you", "Would you like me to start a fitting room for you?" or "I'm sorry, we've had a number of requests and we've tried a number of times, but our head office refuses to ship anything above a size 10 shoe into Canada -- but this pair of size 10's is bigger than usual, we've had number of people who normally take an 11 fit into this: would you like to try it on?"

Most cops could care less who crossdresses. Believe me, Philly cops have a helk of alot more things to be concerned about than who crossdresses.


If I would ever get pulled over while dressed femme, I would be respectful,show my license,registration and insurance card and if I get a speeding ticket,fine,I'll just deal with later.

If he would say anything about me dressed femme, I would just say in a nice way, "I'm in the process of transitioning,thank you and have a nice day"

If you are respectful,you should be ok.



Felicity :)

Oh one point i will bring up in regards to this is.....
LEGALY,, No matter what we say we are guys, thats the same for the tg gals here. LEGALY accoring to our birth certificates. Unless your the lucky few that have changed it :)
IN saying that, WE, as GUYS are NOT allowed to use the ladies rest rooms.
That is about the ONLY time we would attract attention from the police.

I know its kinda a catch 22.. as dressed do we use the ladies and risk someone complaing to the cops or do we use the mens and risk getting smacked about ?? :(

If i ever go out dressed i'm peeing b4 i go :) and if out and need t o again im finding a tree somewhere lol :love:

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Originally Posted by catriona36

Oh one point i will bring up in regards to this is.....
LEGALY,, No matter what we say we are guys, thats the same for the tg gals here. LEGALY accoring to our birth certificates. Unless your the lucky few that have changed it :)
IN saying that, WE, as GUYS are NOT allowed to use the ladies rest rooms.

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Not always!
Plenty of places, over 100 cities county's states and the like allow transgender people to use the restroom of their presentation! The first was over 30 years ago which is how we know that the bathroom-panic of recent Transgender Rights legislation battles have been deliberate lies!

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Originally Posted by catriona36

LEGALY,, No matter what we say we are guys, thats the same for the tg gals here. LEGALY accoring to our birth certificates. Unless your the lucky few that have changed it :)
IN saying that, WE, as GUYS are NOT allowed to use the ladies rest rooms.

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Citation?? Where does it say in any UN treaty that it shall not be permitted for any country or sub-entity to form their own laws in this regard?

You are making a blanket statement about law everywhere in the world. If you cannot back it up, then you need to with-draw or edit it (even if only to change it to "I believe that...")

There has been a lot of discussion in the USA lately about "bathroom laws", and there are entire US states in which state-wide law says specifically that cross-dressers are permitted to use the women's bathroom there; if you had been watching the 'Media' forum, you would have seen reference to concerted campaigns to get some of those state or city-wide laws repealed. Meaning they are already in effect in some places.


Our social group specifically asked a police representative about bathroom/gender related laws here in Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada: we were told that there was no relevant law and that it not a problem to use the women's bathroom while cross-dressed. The representative did, though, send us follow-up correspondence that "recommended" that we use the male bathroom -- which is to say that there is no specific law here dealing with the matter other than the generic "disturbing the peace", which the police did not feel we were inherently doing, but some members of the public get very uptight about such matters and they disturb the peace and then the poor police have to intervene in a situation they would otherwise have been quite content to have us use the female washrooms. When someone is yelling loudly about "sex perverts", even though they are legally and factually wrong, the laws are generally structured to require the police to act as if the claim was true and valid, even knowing full well that the next level up is going to throw the case out pretty much immediately.

The short moral of which is that in places that do not have specific legal protections for bathroom choice, that although it might entirely legal there to use the women's washroom, doing so is not necessarily going to be free of trouble and legal complications. Which is a very different statement from yours.

I know a few cops and if they caught you crossdressing they might put you in handcuffs and take you home with them, but they arent going to right you up. Just becuase a guy looks mean, just means he wants a hug.

I remember a long time ago (maybe 30 years or so) I was in Cincinnati on business at my hotel...Suddenly there were cops all over the place chasing someone whom they said was a transvestite. Fortunately I was in drab but I doubt they were chasing her simply because she was crossdressing. Maybe she stole something or perhaps was a hooker but at the time I wondered if there was a law against CDing.

Jennifer

yes Tess i was thinking ahead of my fingers on that one. the funny thing is Tess i have said the same thing you did on other sites lol

Batty i dont know when they changed that here. i was still under the impression that it was still the same old way :S

I should have said, crossdressers only then, as in maybe its different for transgenderd peoples?

oh ok just thinking . but in my case as a crossdresser not a trans genderd person (ie im in it for the kink and escapeisim)
maybe then its a case of im a guy use guy rooms sort of thing.
Batty i have searched our law society and state law stuff and have found nothing :(
I quess its easier for us where state law is state law and there is no real local law makers :) cuts down on confsion for us i gather lol
Maybe next time im up your way we should catch up and talk.
all i know is being out in public is no crime here :)

I will think harder and try to find a way to put my thoughts into *better* words :)
:love:

The harshest law for CDing that I know of, and have a recent case example handy, is that where I am, a guy was picked up in a market for CDing.

According to the news article, he was sentenced to 6 months, and fined $4,000. Police have appealed the lenient sentence. Mandatory testosterone therapy is possible.

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Originally Posted by blaire

The harshest law for CDing that I know of, and have a recent case example handy, is that where I am, a guy was picked up in a market for CDing.

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Was that perchance in Iran? If not, could you provide more details?

I enjoy looking at websites that have "dumb laws":

I am from AZ. and there is a law in Tucson prohibiting women from wearing pants.

In Ironton, OH. it is illegal to crossdress.

It is also illegal to CD in Durango, CO.

In Staten Island it is illegal for a father to call his son a "faggot" or "queer" in an effort to curb "girlie behavior".

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Originally Posted by Sarah Renee

It is also illegal to CD in Durango, CO.

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Just skip a little east to Trinidad then :)

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Originally Posted by MsJanessa

In Maine there is even a law protecting us against discrimination(that's right CDs specifically) so around here I'm not worried about it.

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Sweet I live next to Maine. Guess I know where to go for holiday.

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Originally Posted by Nicki B

Actually I think it reinforces an unnecessary climate of fear - it feels more like scaremongering, to me.. :sad:

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Nicki
So are you saying it's not a legitiment question, just meant to scare people?

I have been stoped a couple times by police, and they said its my busniss the way I dress, they said no problem, and I did not even get a ticket,

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Originally Posted by Sarah Renee

I enjoy looking at websites that have "dumb laws":

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I have spent time researching some of those "dumb laws" that affected crossdressing. The ones I checked out either never existed in the indicated location, or had been repealed at various times ranging from 5 years ago to 37 years ago.

Unless specific citations of jurisdiction and section / paragraph number are given, you should read those lists as being amusing things that may or may not have existed at some time in the past. Some of them may be real and still on the books (even if never enforced), but especially in the USA, the laws would have to be very specific to avoid First Amendment challenges.

Did a google search.
Found a few interesting things.
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journ...3-4.sears.html

Here an exert:Project MUSE - WSQ: Women's Studies Quarterly - Electric Brilliancy: Cross-Dressing Law and Freak Show Displays in Nineteenth-Century San Francisco Project MUSE Journals WSQ: Women's Studies Quarterly Volume 36, Numbers 3 & 4, Fall/Winter 2008 Electric Brilliancy: Cross-Dressing Law and Freak Show Displays in Nineteenth-Century San Francisco WSQ: Women's Studies Quarterly Volume 36, Numbers 3 & 4, Fall/Winter 2008 E-ISSN: 1934-1520 Print ISSN: 0732-1562 DOI: 10.1353/wsq.0.0108 Electric Brilliancy: Cross-Dressing Law and Freak Show Displays in Nineteenth-Century San Francisco Clare Sears In 1863, midway through the Civil War, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors passed a local law against cross-dressing that prohibited public appearance "in a dress not belonging to his or her sex" (Revised Orders 1863). That city was not alone in this action: between 1848 and 1900, thirty-four cities in twenty-one states passed laws against cross-dressing, as did eleven additional cities before World War I (Eskridge 1999). Far from being a nineteenth-century anachronism, cross-dressing laws had remarkable longevity and became a key tool for policing transgender and queer communities in the 1950s and 1960s. However, although studies have documented the frequent enforcement of these laws in the mid-twentieth century, far less is known about their operations in the nineteenth century, when they were initially passed. In this essay, I examine the legal and cultural...

Then of course there is the biblical law:
The only verse that appears to directly address the question of cross-dressing is Deuteronomy: Chapter 22, Verse 5,

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

My own thought is that there are no clear laws against it unless it is being used for deception, which is not an honest practice.

My personal experience is that if you are not breaking some other laws like drunk driving, prostitution etc the police won't bother you

Looks like a fascinating response to the question being asked.

Not unusual. Given that most people tend to be drawn to do the opposite of what ever the law is because of the desire to rebel against authority.:D

Can you imagine a world where being a crossdresser is against the law? :daydreaming: X-ray machines on every corner which you would be forced to walk through to see what lies beneath. Then the eventual arrest and incarceration for crimes against the male race for being found to be wearing woman panties!!!:devil: Oh the shame of it all!!!!:D

Sara Rene, i live in Tucson. Could you cite a reference to that law. Tucson is very CD friendly and I'm sure it would soon be history and would call attention to our own situation.

I want to go out en femme with my wife and use the ladies restroom too – but have encountered considerable resistance from her. I need an “excuse”; like the costume contest at the Las Vegas Star Trek convention. I heard that many of you have used a ladies restroom in LV, but I have heard that that is actually illegal there – any problems?

after reading several replys on this thread I did some checking on laws... there is nothing current I can find and I am sure the ACLU would put so many lawyers in some cops life any charges would be dropped. besides I'll bet more than 1 cop CD's .

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Originally Posted by kymmieLorain

Well I think any law about crossdressing may be against the constitution isn't it say we have the right to persute of happiness. LOL

Kymmie

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No, the Declaration of Independence names that as an inalienable right, the Constitution names: life, liberty, and property. They are considered ideals as well, not enforceable rights. It would be against the principles outlined for arbitrarily limiting liberty, but like many other things, the Constitution is read in various ways and courts tend to uphold any such irrational law if the public is behind it. Gotta get reelected you know.

I've never heard of any such laws
Sheesh..haul you off to jail because your wearing a dress? And the charge would be? Trying to look pretty in public? Sixty days!:brolleyes:

As far as I know I don't know any.

I've heard that using a ladies restroon is illegal in Las Vegas unless you're a GG.

I am remembering an episode of Barney Miller where Wojciehowicz arrests a crossdresser for something but I can't remember what and can't find a video of the episode "Vigilante." As I recall, Wojo arrested him after he hit on the crossdresser and was pissed after she turned out to be a he...

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Originally Posted by Katie B

Nobody in our national association, so far as I can find out, has ever in 25 years been arrested for crossdressing. Certainly not by the police in one town near here where the chief of police cross-dresses (not while on duty!).

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I think the European Court of Human Rights would take a dim view of any participating state (which includes all EU states) which had any form of general ban. Public toilets are a bit of grey area as you have to balance the rights of the TG against the rights of GGs for a certain level of privacy.

They are a bunch of old laws that they don't enforce any more but are still on the books encase they want to use them. There are 23 states where it is on the books thqat a woman must wear dress and they have to be below the knees to the ankles.

Citations, please. Do you by any chance have the link or resource where you obtained this information?

Hugs...Joni Mari

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Originally Posted by carrie-ann

They are a bunch of old laws that they don't enforce any more but are still on the books encase they want to use them. There are 23 states where it is on the books thqat a woman must wear dress and they have to be below the knees to the ankles.

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Originally Posted by PaulaJaneThomas

Public toilets are a bit of grey area as you have to balance the rights of the TG against the rights of GGs for a certain level of privacy.

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When there are lesbians that rape and abuse children and individual stalls in all toilets what privacy issues are there really that are not actually just transphobia?

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Originally Posted by Joselle3

.......Trying to look pretty in public?.......

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Well, I could be arrested for being "ugly" in public. :tongueout

Years ago my ex tried to get me in trouble by telling the police I crossdressed and they just told her that's not illegal.

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

When there are lesbians that rape and abuse children and individual stalls in all toilets what privacy issues are there really that are not actually just transphobia?

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I'm not aware of any incident of "lesbians" raping or abusing children in toilets in the UK. I am aware of cases of male paedophiles (would they be "gays" in your terminology?) abusing children in male toilets.

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Originally Posted by PaulaJaneThomas

I'm not aware of any incident of "lesbians" raping or abusing children in toilets in the UK. I am aware of cases of male paedophiles (would they be "gays" in your terminology?) abusing children in male toilets.

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There aren't any cases of TGs doing so either but it doesnt stop the assumption that there will be, though there are lesbian rapists and pedophiles like the headmisstress of an Australian religious girls school (i think it was last year) as one example.

I'm not sure if there are any laws against crossdressing specifically in some towns. I do know there are laws that crossdressing might fall under. There are laws prohibiting altering your appearance or wearing a disguise in public, I'm sure crossdressing may fall under these laws. But those may be against the law if you only intend to commit a crime while doing it.