Wearing female clothes while as a man

Reine,

How do you determine whether a skirt is male or female? A skirt is only an unbifurcated garment which hangs from your waist (or rather sits on your hips).

There are 2 types of cd. One presents as male whilst wearing female clothes. The other presents as female because they lack courage to be seen as a man with a different style.

Not everyone liked hippies or rockers or whatever. There will always be some who said it was wrong.

I have seen some websites that sell skirts for men. The biggest problem is that they tend to be thick and heavy (just like most other clothing designed for men).

I prefer women's skirts as they are lighter and more comfortable.

As for lack of hair, maybe women would wear wigs instead?

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Originally Posted by Emma England

There are 2 types of cd. One presents as male whilst wearing female clothes. The other presents as female because they lack courage to be seen as a man with a different style.

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I don't think this is the way you meant it to come across. But I don't want to be seen as a male wearing female clothes. So why does my courage come into play? That is pretty insulting to many of us and why I am guessing your intent didn't come across properly. You probably want to avoid the statement "There are X types of CD" as that always seems to get the thread down a bad path.

Yesterday , when the sun shone, we went shopping, and as i looked at the girls wandering aroung in their gorgeous summery dressies, and their partners next to them in their drab grey/black shorts and grey t shirts, i said to my GF thats why i love being Paula. When i go out i do like to try to push the boundaries as far as i can , i will wear underwear, bright tops, nail varnish, and a nice drop of perfume. I feel like Paula, very girly and am glad i am no longer in those drab guys clothes, One day i hope to push the boundries to the full, and put that skirt/wig on, and go for it.
My point is wearing what i do helps a lot, and if that works for you GO FOR IT, it has pushed me on a lot to my ultimate dream.

LOVE pAULAXXX

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Originally Posted by Emma England

How do you determine whether a skirt is male or female? A skirt is only an unbifurcated garment which hangs from your waist (or rather sits on your hips).

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I would think that the cut of the garment would be different if it was made for men to wear. Certainly all the photos I have seen of "skirts for men" have looked precisely like that and nothing IMNSHO like the sort of skirt that I would wear.

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Originally Posted by Emma England

There are 2 types of cd. One presents as male whilst wearing female clothes. The other presents as female because they lack courage to be seen as a man with a different style.

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I will try to overlook the implied insult in that statement. I think what you were trying to say is that there are differnet reasons why people cross-dress. At one end of the scale, some (MtF) never want to be anything other than a man in so-called women's clothing. At the other end of the scale, some (MtF) want to appear as feminine as they can as part of their cross-dressing experience. Then there are all those who are elsewhere on (or off) this scale.

Then of course you have those who cross-dress because they are TS but have not yet (for whatever reason) begun their RLE. I definitely would not say that those people lack courage.

I started off by asking the determination of a skirts gender.

There are only 2 ways of wearing one - either as male or female. This makes 2 types of cd as far as I see.

Presenting as a woman IS a man with a different style (different to the rest of society).

Most crossdressers do lack courage (myself included) otherwise everyone would just wear whatever clothes they like. There would be no need for a forum such as this.

At the earlier time of writing, I was thinking that there are many men who are afraid of wearing a skirt in public.

No insult was ever intended. More of a misinterpretation of my meaning.

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Originally Posted by Emma England

Reine,

How do you determine whether a skirt is male or female? A skirt is only an unbifurcated garment which hangs from your waist (or rather sits on your hips).

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See the following links. The man skirts are designed as an alternative to traditional men's wear (or possibly as an exercise in gender-bending, such as the guy in pink leggings in the last link), but without attempting to look feminine ... sort of like the modern version of a kilt, sarong, or a hybrid of both.

http://cakenotcoke.com/2009/01/tren-alert-man-skirts/
http://rockthetrend.com/2008/09/11/marc-in-skirt-x2/
http://nymag.com/daily/fashion/2008/...n_skirt_1.html
http://bethciotta.blogspot.com/2008/...ith-skirt.html

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Originally Posted by Emma England

There are 2 types of cd. One presents as male whilst wearing female clothes. The other presents as female because they lack courage to be seen as a man with a different style.

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The CD who presents as a male while wearing female clothes doesn't have a feminine gender ID. I think the fashions above were designed for this group of people in mind. But, if these fashions ever became mainstream, the wearer would no longer be CDing, would he? ;)

I disagree that the CDs who present as female do so because they lack courage to present as a man in a skirt. You've heard of gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder (GID)? I'm guessing this describes the vast majority of the members here, whether part or full-time, although they do not all identify as transsexual. They do NOT want to present as male (for CDs this would only be part-time). They want to experience the thrill and/or inner satisfaction of being seen as a woman and being treated like one, again if only some of the time.

I looked at those "man skirts" and I don't like them, nor the styles as seen in the photos, etc.. The whole allure of crossdressing for me is LOOKING LIKE A WOMAN and as for courage of presenting as male in women's clothes.. I don't want to be a man in woman's clothes.. I want to be seen as a WOMAN, otherwise I wouldn't have on makeup and a wig, earings, etc.. Wearing a skirt as a man has no appeal to me. Sure skirts are more comfortable than pants, but that's not why I love wearing skirts...

What of pantyhose for men? Same thing.. I'm not wearing them for any of the reasons given for "pantyhose for me"....

Another thing about courage I wanted to say is, if I may be "read" as a man in women's clothes, then yes, certainly I'll lack courage of going out.. however, if I can present myself as a woman and "pass", then all the fear dissipates, so I will continue to learn make up, work on my voice, mannerisms, walk, etc until I am confident in not only myself, but that others would see me as a woman, and not a man in women's clothing.

I have to agree with Emma.
I personally do not like the skirts marketed to men. They are for one way too thick, and kilt like for me. Others are just a disaster to look upon. Does the term table cloth come to mind?:) I am not all that into pleated skirts, though I am tempted to get the H & M skirts coming out this fall.

I look at being limited to kilt like skirts to be just as limiting as being limited to pants.

I like form fitting tight skirts, or mini skirts, and like Emma, I see nothing that denotes gender in them. I have heard the argument about the cut...which makes no sense to me when it comes to a skirt. Now pants, and dresses, most certainly have "a cut". Women's pants fit a bit differently in the hip area than men's pants. But skirts do not. There is no inseam to limit who can wear it. It is all about perception, and a perception that needs to be sunk.

As far as taking on a female appearance due to a lack of courage on the man to appear as a male in a skirt, I can sort of see this. I can see it in my self. I do go out in clothing designed for women from the get go, but as a male. But I only do that when it comes to skirts when I am going to a friend's house, or party, or club. I would only do full on CDing for a costume party, or... and this is the important thing, to be able to wear the clothing I like, and not get any guff for being a guy in said clothing.

Does this really help? Nope.

It hinders men gaining more fashion freedom. It only reinforces the limitations placed upon us, for the most part by our own selves.

When I posted about wearing my Spandex Jeans to work, I got several people telling me to watch out, and not take it too far. Now I understand why, but at the same time found it an unneeded detractor. Why? Because I already know I am taking a chance. I already know wearing those pants is pushing some boundaries. I have so far done it three times, and have had no issues except being asked if they were hot to wear, due to them being made of nylon (and in answer to that I responded "nope")

I have said this before, and I will keep saying it. We are our own worst enemies.

I think the only reason I did full on CDing was A) out of curiosity based off what a GG said about my Goth style, and B) As a possible means of being able to wear the styles I like without facing guff from ignorant people. (I know that that is not a reality cause I may look feminine, and have some movements that are graceful in nature, but my voice and manerisms are a clear give away. LOL)

my name is Linda
I'm new to crossdressing never have but want to try it ot to see how it feels.
can you give me some tips

thanks

When wearing jeans, 90% of the time i have pantys and pantyhose on. My wife tells me to wear pantyhose to her parents house,she loves the idea that its our secret, or when going to a department store she may ask me to take my socks off wearing only my shoes and pantyhose. My pants cover the pantyhose,but at times i feel the air on my ankles.

I have driven while wearing panties and a bra, but dressed as a man. At first I was nervous, but as my four hour drive went on, I became more relaxed and instead of shielding my "breasts" with my arms, I sat back in my seat and stuck out my chest proudly, even at stoplights. Not sure what people actually saw or thought, but it was exciting to me.

The only time in male clothing is a work that is because i'm a security gaurd and require a uniform with armed equipment. underneath all girl bra and panties. when i get off duty and home it is off with the unifrom and into a dress. LOve being a girl

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But the difference as I understand it, between the 60's hippies, the 70's glam rockers, and TGs is that the hippies and glam rockers did not attempt to present as women.

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Quite true, my point was more about the fact that cis men were also exploring gender boundaries at the height of the feminist movement but the different circumstances of men in society meant such explorations were doomed.

I think though that if we ever were to live in a society where men had gender expression freedom then most men who now grow up to be CDs would not do so. It is impossible to prove my idea of course but I see no real reason why a boy would develop the type of CD behavior we see now if he had always had the freedom to wear what he wanted and there were lots of male role models for him to copy and not just GGs. In which case your point about not wanting to present as a woman would be immaterial as (CD) men would then probably have the same agenda as cis men.

Your point about skirts designed for men misses the point because such items are being designed for cis men meaning they are butched up. CDs are after femininity not masculinity. Now if a designer produced skirts and dresses for CD men ie they had exactly the same look and feel as GG clothes were were just cut slightly differently for the male body shape then why not?

Its not actually about the clothes per se but about the meaning and message attached to them.

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And if ever the gender gap in clothing should disappear entirely, if all the skirts and pants were to be made available for both genders in all the fabrics and colors, I think the TGs would find different aspects of themselves to change, in order to present more as women than men.

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Only for those on the TS side who want to be women. In such a world there is no closet, no guilt, no shame and lots of GM role models. Our whole behavior would be quite different if we had always taken for granted the use of feminine clothing. It is not realistic to believe our behavior would remain the same if the underlying criteria were to drastically change.

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Originally Posted by Satrana

I think though that if we ever were to live in a society where men had gender expression freedom then most men who now grow up to be CDs would not do so. It is impossible to prove my idea of course but I see no real reason why a boy would develop the type of CD behavior we see now if he had always had the freedom to wear what he wanted and there were lots of male role models for him to copy and not just GGs. In which case your point about not wanting to present as a woman would be immaterial as (CD) men would then probably have the same agenda as cis men.

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I've always assumed the premise that CDing (for the most part) went much deeper than just being about the clothes, therefore if everyone wore the same unisex clothing and jewelry in the same fabrics, colors, and styles, the CDs would still look for ways to emulate a woman's looks, although they'd be restricted to shaving body hair, changing hair styles and applying makeup. Who knows, maybe there'd be more feminization surgeries?

But, it is true there are fewer F2M than M2F CDs (I'm not talking about TSs), and maybe this is because genetic women can choose to reject the skirts and the dresses if they wish and adopt clothing that is not as adorned, whereas if a GM were to reject unadorned pants, what would he wear? Now before anyone else comments on this, I'm NOT saying that women who wear pants are CDing. There are lots of femininely styled pants out there that would never be mistaken for men's clothes. But there are also the Levi jeans for example, and other unisex brand names which don't look any different in men's or women's styles, yet they are designed without any feminine embellishments (enabling men to wear these styles too).

Here's an interesting idea. If we all lived in nudist colonies, if razors for cutting hair did not exist, and if clothing chosen for warmth was completely devoid of style, if there was no such thing as the idea that we should embellish and artificially differentiate ourselves, would there still be CDs? If there wouldn't be, then does this mean that CDing is only really about a clothing fetish? I rather think there be more TSs, more people unhappy with their birth bodies and biological function, since the focus could not be about how unfair it is that we do have double standards in terms of clothing choices.

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Originally Posted by Satrana

Your point about skirts designed for men misses the point because such items are being designed for cis men meaning they are butched up. CDs are after femininity not masculinity. Now if a designer produced skirts and dresses for CD men ie they had exactly the same look and feel as GG clothes were were just cut slightly differently for the male body shape then why not?

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This is the point I was trying to make. :) CDs would not buy the skirts and dresses designed for men who wish to present male.

Your other idea is quite novel though. I wonder if CDs would opt for female clothing designed for men (they'd have to be designed for men with cinchers and forms), or if the CDs would still rather shop in the women's sections. It's food for thought for everyone.

There was a thread some time ago about a CD wishing to buy construction boots and asking about brands that made them in women's styles. I pointed out a brand name that was identically styled for men and women, except the width and sizes were different, but the women's boots were more expensive. This CD said that paying the extra money was worth it because it made her feel better that she was wearing women's boots.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

.....Your other idea is quite novel though. I wonder if CDs would opt for female clothing designed for men (they'd have to be designed for men with cinchers and forms), or if the CDs would still rather shop in the women's sections. It's food for thought for everyone.

There was a thread some time ago about a CD wishing to buy construction boots and asking about brands that made them in women's styles. I pointed out a brand name that was identically styled for men and women, except the width and sizes were different, but the women's boots were more expensive. This CD said that paying the extra money was worth it because it made her feel better that she was wearing women's boots.

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The ability to pull out a tag/receipt to show the naysayers that the "utilikilt" or "comfilons" in question were indeed made for men would likely not dissuade them much in their opinions or justify the cost upwards of $200 for what I can get at the 'mart stores for $20 but then the clothes I have didn't come from the womens section because it was the womens section that's just where they were.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I've always assumed the premise that CDing (for the most part) went much deeper than just being about the clothes, therefore if everyone wore the same unisex clothing and jewelry in the same fabrics, colors, and styles, the CDs would still look for ways to emulate a woman's looks

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This argument goes to the heart of what CDing is actually about - is it really about men wanting to be women or men wanting the freedom to express femininity but being forbidden to do so as a male? I believe the former describes TS while the latter describes CDs. However a lot of CDs describe their motivation as wanting to be a woman because only GGs are allowed to openly express femininity so there is a blurring of the line between two quite different motivations.

My basis for this argument is that most CDs when young start off with just relating to a single piece of female clothing like stockings or panties. The idea of presenting as an actual women in full emulation is an idea and practice that develops many years later. So emulating women is something CDs learn to do over time as they push the boundaries of exploring their desire to express femininity.

Then there are two types of infatuation that obscures the original source of motivation. The first is the desire to inhabit an alternative fantasy universe that lets them be someone else. You can see parallels in other groups who do the same thing such as the huge online muliplayer games universes or even Trekkies who dress up as Dr Spock or Klingons and even learn the totally made-up Klingon language at university. The more detailed and believeable the universe is, the more addictive it becomes. This explains why CDs are so particular about detailing every minute aspect of GG life because it makes the alternative reality more real and enjoyable.

The second infatuation is the clothes themselves - something which GGs can get caught up with themselves. No need to explain this one any further except to say that female styles are so elaborate and eye-catching they are actually designed to be appealing and addictive.

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Here's an interesting idea. If we all lived in nudist colonies, if razors for cutting hair did not exist, and if clothing chosen for warmth was completely devoid of style, if there was no such thing as the idea that we should embellish and artificially differentiate ourselves, would there still be CDs?

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Yes there would but the focus would be quite different. CDs would have to copy female mannerisms but the lack of a visual transformation would inhibit the process of creating an alternative reality and of course there would be no clothes infatuation either. In this environment the true source of CDing would be apparent ie men wishing to express their feminine side.

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I wonder if CDs would opt for female clothing designed for men (they'd have to be designed for men with cinchers and forms), or if the CDs would still rather shop in the women's sections.

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I think it would be a mixture. Some would appreciate the practicality of better fitting clothes (isnt this why CD shops like Transformation were created?) while others will believe buying real GG clothes enhances and validates their alternative universe where they become women.

Klaire,
I enjoy the clothes also, and have a hard time finding the opportunity to dress completely (which I have done a few times) and go out and about. So, I wear hose and flats with women jeans and a male shirt out sometimes when I am out of town. Just this past Fri. I went into two Payless Shoe stores wearing pantyhose with jeans and black women flats. I also, went into a Lebo's and bought a pair of Danskin tights dressed the same way and no one said a word. At the first Payless I tried on three pairs of shoes. I went to a Books A Million and bought a mag the same day. It was exciting and a relief. Dress as you please and be smart and safe.

[SIZE="2"]As usual, I'm late to the party (I mean thread). Pardon me while I quote the OP:[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Klaire Larnia

I also hate the way that men are forced into wearing a very limited style of clothes which women are not - and this is kinda like my way of having being able to express myself and challenge the limits society have placed on what men can wear.

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[SIZE="2"]Is it really challenging the limits placed upon you, or do you simply like wearing certain things? Keep it simple I say, and disregard any guidelines placed along your path to happiness. Do you ever see a female who obviously can, or could, dress the way YOU want to, yet she completely avoids the possibilities, or the effort, and dresses down (for comfort)? That bothers me, but it speaks volumes about difference, i.e. whether or not the individual in question even cares about what she could do, if only as an expression of some sort. Of course, I suppose you need to begin with a desire to express something...[/SIZE]

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So, question: Has anyone ever worn anything female related other than underwear while still being in "male mode" and if so what was it like? To take the above further, if I where to stop at a motorway services and swap into jeans, and jumper but leave the shoes on, do you think I would making an error of judgment or would people probably not notice and/or ignore me?

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[SIZE="2"]I don’t think people notice all that much – in your example, it all depends if someone is looking down for some reason, in your vicinity, and/or has the audacity to point out something that goes against his or her sense of propriety. What gives? You’ll be gone by then, a memory that will give birth to a story on another website, or a blog about unusual gender-queer phenomena…

I’ve worn various combinations of male/female garments, as I slip surreptitiously in and out of my transformative adventures, but it all depends on what I see before me – every situation is different, and I dress accordingly. Like I say, most people won’t notice any discrepancy, and those who do will not (or rarely) reveal the evidence…[/SIZE]

Going to a wedding of a old friend i havent seen in 5yrs. My wife was pushing me to underdress,she said we dont know many people there. I put on pink lacey pantie and taupe stay ups. I wanted to wear pantyhose but didnt want to worry about anything showing from the back of my pants. I was walking out the door and at the last second i chickened out and got changed. While at the wedding a group song came on and before i knew it, my friends sister grabbed me and took me to the dance floor. Once on the dance floor the dj asked the woman to pull up the mens pants to the knee to do a Russian dance. WOW my heart droped to my stomach.

I was also outside as man in a "feminin" jacket, top, pantyhose. It was at night and nobody said a word, it was nice ;) - I had not to worry about the look of the hair, if the wig could be spotted or if the makeup was smeared or to heavy. Well being out all make up is also nice ;)

er.....Sophie..... you just said you went outside in a jacket, top, and pantyhose. Please tell me the jacket was long, or you had some kind of skirt or dress over the hose. LOL I mean I have gone out wearing only a sweater, hose and heels, but the sweater was long enough it could be pulled down and belted in a manner it formed a dress.

Well, unfortunately there was no mirror ^^, yes, the pantyhose could have been a little bit thicker to avoid the view on the undergarment - well never again ^^

I wear women's clothes all the time so a skirt in guy mode is not out of line IMO.
I have done it several times even mowed my lawn in a denim skirt.Hell may even wear a skirt today.

I own more womens jeans than men's. I wear women's polo shirts, tennis shoes, socks, etc. in addition to the normal underdressing.

most of my "male" things were bought in the womans dept, the jeans just fit better i do not like the baggy look or feel. tops are woman's also. even my loafers.
but then most of my male stuff is only for work, and a pile of T-shirts.
when at home i am in a skirt.
undies are almost all woman's, just a bunch of socks and a couple pairs of male briefs.

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I've worn pantyhose, tights, thigh highs, panties and bra's to work... love it!