Thank you for pointing that out to me. Its removed.
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Kaz, if I am right, what has confused you is the lack of quotation marks in the original question. It took me a couple of read-throughs but I believe that the question should have read:
Most cders say "I love women and I am not gay" yet they post pics and a lot of them are always trying to be seductive...
thus finding an apparent contradiction between the assertion that the CD is only into women and the sexy pose that the GG feels is put up for men to ogle.
What I feel may confuse the GG questioner is that many of us in the cross-dressing community genuinely do not consider the anatomical gender of our fellow transgenders. I know that I could no more think of one of our FtM brethren in terms of being a woman than I could think of one of our MtF sisters in terms of being a man.
Do I understand that some cross-dressers are resolute in their desire to keep their anatomical gender? Yes, but does that make me treat them differently to the way that they present? Sorry but no.
Incidentally, I rarely look in the picture and video gallery, so I may be speaking completely out of turn.
It could be that in some cases, the cd doesn't know HOW to pose to present a feminine image, and does the best possible. I learned from my pics that some poses don't work, like those with legs apart or hands on hips. Some of us had to learn to pose. I am still not happy with the way I walk - some video clips told me so. Still working on trying for a more feminine gait.
This topic is still another example of the great divide here. There are identity dressers, many of whom desire to blend in and avoid blatant, over-the-top, provocative dress, makeup, and manner. Or they may have natural feminine tendencies and it comes easy. Others dress for pleasure and like to present themselves as sexy. It's in the mind of the beholder. I dress and makeup over-the-top, but I strive more for glam and less for sexy. That's just me. We're all different.
It seems to me that there is a kind of undercurrent of snobbery here. The identity dressers want us pleasure dressers to clean up our act and present a better image in order to gain public acceptance for us all. Identity dressers often want to be called "transgendered" to differentiate themselves from the sexually deviant "fetishistic crossdressers". Identity dressers want acceptance for themselves but won't accept crossdressers who don't fit their template. You don't like how someone poses? <click> you don't have to look.
I suppose a lot of the poses emphasise feminine: pouting to make you lips look bigger, thrusting your boobs forward, sticking your bum out. It's a chicken and egg thing I guess that the poses are seen as sexy, but they are sexy because they emphasise girliness but to make yourself look more girly in a pose you would strike to make the femme features stand out more. Saying that I've not got any pictures like that
I agree with Kaz that we are off the subject here. I have read from the girls here that they dont post sexy or aluring pictures. That they feel that maybe the yoir SO is just coping ideas from magazines on newstands. I think we need to hear from the girls that in fact do post sexy or aluringing photos to what their feelings are to why they do it, not from girls that say they dont. We have not see your SO photos also, so its hard for us to render a real opinion. I myself am guilty of taking the sexy photos, but as I have said before, I am going through a conflcting time and not sure I fully understand it yet myself. I have not yet discussed this with my wife until I get a better idea of what I am feeling. I dont feel the need to fully upset her, if this conflict is in passing. Of course in any matter I will tell her what ever has happened so she will not later find out. If she was to see the photos ive done and asked me of course I would tell her at that time. I know from reading the other girls they will disagree with me. I do feel if your SO is taking the unacceptable photos she may also be in a conflict, and now that you have seen them,you need to tell her and ask her about them. Its just my opinion which seldom does anyone ever listen anyway. Sooo if you have gotten this far thats for reading this.
Thanks Sara...........
Because I'm a narcissistic freak with a huge streak of exhibitionism.
I'm sure I'm not the only one, but apparently, the only one in this thread so far to admit it. :P
To fab gg.For some,to emulate a woman includes the provocative poses.It helps to complete their image of what they feel they like in a woman.Their sexual desires may be completely opposite of that,so I feel its OK to do what you want with this depending on your mood.For others who are transgender,well ..its not just a pose but their true feelings.I guess we need to be careful what we assume about others irregardless of what we think they are projecting
What would you suggest for poses? The "superman" pose? How about the iron pumping, muscle flexing he-man pose? Either way it would look silly while wearing a beautiful flowing gown or a cute mini skirt. Dressing for me is a temporary transformation into a woman (I guess a lesbian) so it isn't just clothing on a dude.
As for the "kiss-kiss" or "hon" thing, well I don't know about that one. It sometimes creeps me out a little having a man say that to me directly. But really it doesn't really bother me much that others here use feminine terms of endearment. It's their thing and I doubt they mean to offend anyone or that there is anything sexual behind it. They are just going the distance in expressing their femininity.
I wouldn't suggest anyone goes "whazzuuuuuuuup?!" or anything retarded like that. Someone else here uses "cheers". I like that one, it's so English and "a-sexual".
Ginger
Oh, and who is to say, Lesbian, or Bi-sexual women don't find those poses alluring. I know that may be a wild shot in the dark, but who knows. I know my Bi GG friend looks at pics of women and is known to say "oh that's hot" or "Oh she is sooo sexi", and so on. When she saw me in my vampiress outfit, she was all "Oh my god, you don't look like a drag queen, you look ravashing" LOL
So I don't think our poses are for men to ogle, though they do. I know that when I look at the pics here there is no sexual desire, only a desire to find something I can use for my own look.
Plus, male poses.....usually express POWER, DOMNIATION, BRAWN, and other MANLY things I personally think there is an unequal distribution of these days. :)
My question to this thread, is why does it matter? Unless there is an inherent relationship with the person posting the pictures I'm not sure it matters much. I guess the real answer is; because they want to. Unless there is something inappropriate, it's there own choice.
If the person posting the pictures is a friend or significant other I'd say ask them personally. Reading through these posts, (the ones on the topic) it seems clear that there are as many reasons as there are people posting them.
if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....is it as crossdresser ? or a chicken hawk ?
To answer the original question:
I think the problem with understanding this is the precept that our poses as crossdressers are meant to attract others...no matter if they are aimed at either gender.
Presuming that they are using these pics for the sole purpose of attracting a perspective SO is way off base for most of us. Because at the end of the day this is a site built for our whole Community, not a dating site.
I browse our community pics and see lots of confident people being themselves. Some are very sexy in intent and some are very practical. Embracing both sides of our community from fetish to full-time, we pose for pics to show off our having fun side. Many dont have an open SO to share these moments of confidence captured on film. So they end up here among their peers.
And this question strikes the heart of sexuality among us as a whole. Gay, straight, whatever, if they are attractive pics, then by all means be confident and be yourself. If that involves blowing kisses at the camera then have fun with it.
Being a Sexy Freak,
-Donni-
I sat here for at least five minutes trying to decide if I should comment on this thread or not. After all, I seriously doubt that there are many here that have as many pics on the web as I do.
The thing is, I doubt that my pics fit the box you have in your mind.
I went for about ten years having only two or three pictures of myself as Kimberly. When I was feeling old and ugly, I would pull those pics out and think to myself "See, I CAN be pretty!". One day I was looking at them and it occurred to me that I had gotten older, and maybe even old. If your older than your mid thirties, then you may have even had this awful revelation and moment yourself. Anyway, it struck me that I wished I had taken more pictures for the memories while I was younger and prettier. My next thought was that some day when I was in my sixties, I may well look back at TODAY and think the same thing - why didn't you take more photo's while you were young and before all the wrinkles destroyed your face? With this depressing and horrific thought in mind, I trotted out and bought my first digital camera, and a monster was born. . .
I DO have a theory about why a lot of us post pics though. Most of us spend a significant part of our life hiding in closets and terrified that others will see us or learn of our secret. For all of that, we still have a longing - how wonderful would it be to enter the world wearing a beautiful skirt or high heels? When you consider the two conflicting desires (secrecy vrs the desire to enter the world wearing what we dream of), suddenly putting pictures out on the internet is an almost perfect solution. It's an outlet for that which we want to share and participate in and yet are terrified to do so. Anyway, it's a theory - take it or leave it as you please . . .
As for the provocative nature of some of the pics, I just don't know - I don't have any pics along those lines. On the other hand, were I in my twenties and with a fit figure, I might actually try and give some of them a run for their money. Even then though, it wouldn't be that I was aiming to attract men - they hold no interest for me. It would be more about fulfilling the fantasy of being someone that I myself might consider attractive and desirable.
Did that make ANY sense at all or did I just ramble? Damn, aint getting old a bitch?
Here is another question for the GG.
Why is it these poses are necessarily feminine, and meant to attract men.
Why are men limited yet again in another field of expression?
Why can men not pose provocatively or sexi?
As I have stated most male poses deal with the display of power, or brawn, or strength....notice, how all of those have a key feature, I will leave it to the reader to figure that one out.
My "sassy" pose, is in fact a "manly" heroic pose, not much different from what Superman is regularly seen doing. Standing up with arms crossed at chest is also a heroic pose, more like one Batman does.
Once again, the line between male and female is razor thin and easily transgressed.
The pose of the subject lying on one side or the other can be taken as a submissive pose, and consequently feminine. Once again this is a social construct that can easily be shattered.
Now, that is not to say there are poses that are very "feminine" and that is because they emphasize something only women have...breasts. These poses are done by us I think because we are trying to appear as feminine as our bodies will allow, though, when I am in androg or male mode, I am known to use such a pose. The afformentioned superheroes are also known to do this pose.
It is all silly non-sense to allow yet another area of limitation for men to remain.
I haven't trudged through the bulk of responses in this thread because I haven't had the time to, but I will answer it for me. I have recently started posted a few "Sexy" photos onto an erotic pics website. Unlike the majority of my dressing which is just being a guy in a skirt or dress, in these pics I actually go both fully girl, and also try my best to pose in a more risque, seductive manner. Now, yes, money is a reason for this, but I haven't really made all that much money from this endeavor, so for me to have done two photo shoots for this, there has to be another reason to be doing it besides that, and I think it's fair to say, yes, I do like the idea that I can get all dolled up and be sexy in that way. When I'm about midway through one of these photo shoots, I definitely feel really sexy and great about myself. I feel hot. I feel like one of the Victoria's Secret models I grew up both lusting after and being jealous of.
Am I fully aware that the people looking at my photo sets are other men? Yes. But it doesn't mean anything to me except being flattered that someone finds me attractive enough to want to buy my "sexy" photos. It doesn't mean I want these men to come a-callin' on me or trying to pursue a relationship with me, it's just a little bit of fun that will also hopefully turn me a small profit.
I'll admit it, 2Speed! Altho, that's really just another way of saying, "I post pictures of myself that I think look HOT!":daydreaming:
Not everyone's, "Hot", looks the same tho, does it?
That's so well expressed, Kim! U explained BEAUTIFULLY why I enjoy posting my pics online, AND why I prefer posting HOT pics of Sherry!!:D
Even tho I'm over 60, I'm a somewhat recent beginner of dressing and I'm lucky enuff to have a figure that can get AWAY WITH lookin' HOT!:devil:
I expect to pass this silly, " Post hot pics", stage one of these days! Maybe when I'm in my 80's!?:heehee:
Maybe it's BSS, Britaney Spears Syndrome! No doubt a lot of us have pics that are age/place inappropriate:) Along the way we have to push the envelope, experiment and revue to find ourselves. Posting pics better relate to who you are now or be sure to caption or date the picture for posterity. Hugz
For those who missed Di's second post about this anonymous GG who had posted the question, the pictures she was disturbed by and questioning were posted by her husband. I'm assuming that she did not know these pictures existed before she saw them in the picture gallery here, or if she did know they existed she never had thought they were for public consumption. Is it acceptable to post deliberately provocative pictures when one is in a serious, committed relationship?
Something that I've had trouble wrapping my head around are not the poses I've seen pictures of, but the responses they get. For example, one picture I saw recently was of one of our members in her bra and panties, with a profusion of extra lingerie piled in front of her groin. Some of the other photos in the set had provocative captions. The responses to that picture were that others saw it as being very classy, and very feminine, and the member was hit on quite a bit. It bothered me.
Don't get me wrong, the picture itself wasn't the bothering part - as has been said on here, you see advertising images like that all the time all over the place, and I am all for healthy self expression that satisfies the individual. The part I found hard was the fact others on the thread picked out THAT particular image to call very feminine, and labelled the whole thing 'classy.' Do you have to show your underwear to prove you're 'feminine'? Since when did they pass THAT rule? 'Cause I totally missed it. And as for 'classy?' Class is something every female can aspire to, and is something which can be shown at all times. If you'd feel embarrassed looking like that or acting like that in front of your grandmother (assuming your grandmother was perfectly accepting of your femininity), or if Grace Kelly would never have done that - it's not classy. It's just not. Maybe it's sexy, or artistic, or beautiful - but it falls closer to the trashy side than the classy one.
The thing I have to think is, the more people see feedback like that on images where the poser is scantily clad and provocative, the more they're going to think, 'that's what I have to do to look good.' I think that's a real trap for girls and women (including in this category all the wonderful CDers and TG ladies on this site) to fall into. I have been involved with groups for young girls for a long time, and I can't tell you how often girls feel pressure to tart up and 'be sexy' because that's how they think they have to be to be taken seriously as a woman, for very similar reasons to this. I wonder how much our anonymous GG's partner posted those pictures because that's what she thought she needed to do to look very feminine.
Let me ask you this, is it acceptable for a married woman, such as Heidi Klum, to pose modeling lingerie? I would say it is by most folks except the most conservative amongst us. If the issue in question is that the GG's husband was posting these pictures without her knowledge, behind her back, then isn't it fair to say the real issue here is one of trust and honesty with one's spouse and partner, rather than an indictment of all who pose in sexy ways?
I think this is a matter of perspective. Unfortunately, if you do a google search on the internet for sexy pictures of crossdressers, or heck, just for pictures of crossdressers with the safe search filter off, you will find a lot raunchier photos than the ones like you described. Sadly, amongst the world of crossdressing photos, it is somewhat classy to not show off one's genitals or pose performing some sort of sex act. There's a huge pile of material that is pornographic in nature that somehow gets passed off as the norm of what makes a "sexy crossdresser," and as a result, what is or isn't classy is a bit skewed by comparison. On several sites I've seen photo groupings where "Classy" means "No nudity."Quote:
The part I found hard was the fact others on the thread picked out THAT particular image to call very feminine, and labelled the whole thing 'classy.' Do you have to show your underwear to prove you're 'feminine'? Since when did they pass THAT rule? 'Cause I totally missed it. And as for 'classy?' Class is something every female can aspire to, and is something which can be shown at all times. If you'd feel embarrassed looking like that or acting like that in front of your grandmother (assuming your grandmother was perfectly accepting of your femininity), or if Grace Kelly would never have done that - it's not classy. It's just not. Maybe it's sexy, or artistic, or beautiful - but it falls closer to the trashy side than the classy one.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say, so let me rephrase that question. 'Is it acceptable to post deliberately provocative pictures without the knowledge or blessing from the one with whom a person is in a serious, committed relationship?'
Okay, I'll take your word on that one!
I think it's just the implication I'm seeing on this site that in order to get attention and validation from other crossdressers, one has to post pictures of oneself and the pictures which are encouraged and 'validated' the most, are seen as being the most 'feminine' or 'classy' are ones where the poser is wearing as little as they can get away with. It kind of makes me wonder first off how I am seen from the average genetically male point of view (or any other GG, for that matter) and second off how many 'young' crossdressers end up taking and posting photos they'll regret later because they wanted to fit in and be seen as 'feminine.'
hiya anonymous, lol
Some of the explanation is just Maslow’s Hierarchy Needs being played out. More specifically, the third level (belonging) and fourth level (esteem).
We need to belong someplace and feel accepted within the group(s) we are part of. We accomplish this by proving we fit into the social norms defined by the group. Posting CD images may provide concrete “evidence” of that commitment.
Esteem needs create the desire to rise to a higher position within a group. Earning the respect of the our peer group gives us greater “power”.
The nature of the TG issue places emphasis on physical appearance. By default, it becomes a competition to earn enough peer group and admirer votes to become a “star”. Some use a sexually explicit strategy and others try to achieve respect by condemning it.
Still others resort to the sexually explicit route when other strategies become ineffective.
The sexual aspects you are referring to are often considerations that may never even enter his mind. It may simply be a compensating strategy to fulfill a desperate need for acceptance which is being denied elsewhere.
Interpreting our own behavior is a challenging task. Interpreting the behavior of another person is even more challenging. It requires us to change our viewing perspective. Using our own prospective and perceptions of the world to uncover another person’s motivation and behavior rarely generates anything productive.
What makes sense to us is irrelevant. What makes sense to the another person has everything to do with understanding their motivations and behavior. Understanding and acknowledging his perceptions of the world will enable you to understand the reasoning, justification and motivation for his behavior.
It is possible to understand things that do not make sense when viewed with our own perception of the world.
Just my thoughts,
Good Luck !:hugs:
I love to look hot and flirt, even if I'm in a serious relationship. That's a basic part of my femininity. Heck, I've got a closeup pic of my bare tits on Fetlife. There are plenty of women like me. Nothing wrong with crossdressing men emulating women like me.
Also, some women do enjoy the provocative and other pix posted here. Just because we don't post in the pix section doesn't mean we don't lurk.
To the GGs that do like our pics. BY ALL MEANS, post comments!!! LOL
I LOVE to have GGs leave nice comments on my flickr, and on this site too.
Not that I turn my nose up at fellow CDs. Now, some coments from males go right into the recycle bin :)
I would say no. In my shoes, if I had a girlfriend who was posting photos like that online without my knowledge, I'd be upset by it if I discovered it. If it were something she were up front and honest about, then I'd be fine with it.
Well, I'm sorry to be the one who seems to have to break this to you, but yes the average male very much wants to see you in as little as they can get away with. It doesn't mean that they don't like to see you fully clothed, or that they don't respect you or admire you for other things that you have to offer the world, but yeah, guys like to see women looking sexy. Having said that, I do like to see a girl wearing actual lingerie, such as stockings or a corset, or at least a nicer bra and panty set, than a girl who just strips on down. There's something about the tease and the playfulness of it that does make it seem more feminine, yes, and more classy than just getting right to it. I prefer the concept of burlesque to the concept of a strip club.Quote:
I think it's just the implication I'm seeing on this site that in order to get attention and validation from other crossdressers, one has to post pictures of oneself and the pictures which are encouraged and 'validated' the most, are seen as being the most 'feminine' or 'classy' are ones where the poser is wearing as little as they can get away with. It kind of makes me wonder first off how I am seen from the average genetically male point of view (or any other GG, for that matter) and second off how many 'young' crossdressers end up taking and posting photos they'll regret later because they wanted to fit in and be seen as 'feminine.'
While I think there is some truth to your comments, and I certainly don't want you to think I'm dismissing them, knowing my own perspective, I didn't need anyone to peer pressure me into wanting to dress in lingerie. I think the reason so many of us do it, and so many of us respond to it, is to be honest, the less clothes you wear, the harder it is to pull off. Take my word for this too, there are plenty of examples to be found online of men wearing lingerie that don't even remotely look feminine or sexy and classy might as well be an alien concept. So when we see a crossdresser wearing lingerie and actually managing to tap into that feminine sexuality in a way usually reserved for women, it is pretty impressive. So two things are typically happening when one looks at the photo, we think of the things we like to see when we look at women, and also we have a bit of a vicarious appreciation happening. It makes me feel good to see a CD who can pull off a cheesecake photo because it makes me think wow maybe I have a chance at pulling that off too.
As far as the "showing less" pictures being the most validating, I can't say I agree with your point there, at least not on this forum. While such photos get posted and yes they do get many positive comments, I don't think it's a fair assessment of the majority of the photo threads in the gallery. As I typed this I slipped over to that section in another tab and I opened about 10 different threads on the main page, all of which had at least one full page of comments if not two or three, and none of them were boudoir type shots. In fact, three different threads were either entirely or mostly shots of just the face.
Heh, I have some sets of me wearing just a bra and hose, and heels. I get told I look really feminine, I just see me wearing as little as I am willing to wear in front of the camera. There is also a set of me just in my disco pant....no top. What I see is a male. Male build, male features. To be honest I like those pics of me, and love to get compliments on them from GGs, since I am indeed very androgynous looking.
ah heck, this is the link to that set. http://www.flickr.com/photos/2948214...7624487285884/
my hair is my wild hair, and I have make up, but there is no question as to my true nature.
Now, did I do this set to appeal to men? NO WAY. Some of the captions I state how I would like a real girl in place of my Jeune Fille.
and this is just one of the pantyhose only shots. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3188/...399030933d.jpg This was a fun shot due to how little I was wearing. Why should women get all the fun? :)
Now will my SO know of this? Hell I am hoping it is one of these pics that attract her :P
Part of being young is doing things that you will ...I won't say regret because everything I did when I was young just made me more who I am now...but wonder why you did them. I recently found a photo of my mother posing with her ankle length skirt hiked high on her thigh (made me stop for a second then made me think "wow my mom was really a real person before I came along and made her age"). I have photos of me in male mode that I hope no one ever ever sees (yet I cannot destroy them...and they were posed and taken by my wife). I have photos of my late wife in various levels of dress that I wish I had more now she is gone and I have a rotten memory. All that isn't the point here but young people will do things that young people do as it has been forever.
As far as most photos needing to be cheesecake (that's what we old fogeys called it) I either look at the wrong photos or I don't see them as "most" here. Most seem to be fairly benign everyday poses. But I don't look at all the photos.
How are females seen by the average genetic male? Good question. If we go with the hard wire theory, you are looked at as a potential maing partner to distribute genec material (fits the stereotype doesn't it?). On the yang part of that women look at men for potential protection (now a days money more than muscle but muscle still works).
I will go out on a limb here. The majority of TG's here are not here for the sexual thrill. So this site is slightly different than most. I will also postulate that many people here actually are to some degree transgendered and not fetishists (Ok I know at least one person is going to disagree on that). So I agree with JTOR on checking other sites if you think the photos here are suggestive (well they are suggestive more than blatant). I will refer back to my original reply here. Many pictures posted are what many see in women's magazines. Yes they titillate the male but they also subliminally have some attraction to females or else DKNY and others would not be in business long. I will even say that most pictures here really are like looking at a woman's magazine...with a fair number of everyday suburban woman poses thrown in.
Do we need to show a lot of skin to get validation? Not so much here I think. Most the photos I have posted are what you would see from me on an average day. Yes, the skirts are short but I have the legs so I show them. But they are what I could wear daily on the street. I have photos taht you will never see here (mostly because I am sort of shy about them but more because I don't want to get banned) and I won't delete them forever because they are "sexy" and yes many men would find them attractive at the least. I love the attention I get from my photo posts and I love the replies I get here from my "peers". Am I looking to attract men? I don't need suggestive photos for that, just have to be "visible" on any chat mode on the web. I have turned down more offers from men online than any maid at the Hilton has turned down sheets and I don't even offer mints. And 99% have never seen a photo of me
I agree with the "lingerie as a tease is sexy" sentiment.
I don't have anything really to add, except for what I have stated earlier. We just need to keep in mind that self-identity is complex, even for those who are lucky enough to have "society approved identities". (My wife, for example, often feels unattractive despite my regular reassurance to the contrary... that is her complex self-identity at work). Often, the hodge-podge self-identity that CDers have cobbled together results in doing things that we view as "sexy" in order to project our mental self-indentity into the real world.
As most CDers will tell you, we don't dress for someone else's benefit, we dress for ourselves. Which means the only person we are trying to be attractive to is ourselves. Again, this just reinforces my previous assertion that this is a self-identity issue (i.e. how one views one's self). Sure, we would like to get the approbation of the rest of the world, but that is only to help us confirm that we have succeeded in projecting our mental self-identity.
P.S.
Ryan, that was HILARIOUS stand-up. I don't know why you weren't getting more laughs from the audience (probably too many "macho" guys who couldn't allow themselves to find the humor). I was cracking up. Great stuff. I'd like to see more of your stand-up. When are you coming to Seattle?
Lorileah and JTOR, very fair comments, and I'm glad to hear from your perspectives on this. Eluuzion, what you wrote makes a lot of sense to me, too. The cheesecake photos are by no means the majority (they are fairly rare), but when I see them they tend to get the most comments from other CDs. Also, I totally understand having lingerie (I haven't bought boring underwear since I was about 13) and I also understand taking pictures! I was thinking more along the lines of someone later regretting posting delicate pics for wider consumption... like maybe the husband of Ms. Anonymous GG, should he ever figure out she found pictures that hurt her?