We are not crossdressers.....and we get fed up of being told we are

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Originally Posted by suchacutie

The overwhelming majority of us on this site are transgendered, and we occupy every part of the spectrum of transgenderism. Let's face it, that existence is a struggle, no matter what part of the spectrum you occupy. When a non-transgendered GG wears "male" clothing it has absolutely nothing to do with transgenderism.

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There are many crossdressers who are adamant that they are not transgendered. Why are they not treated the same way as non-transgendered GGs? You cannot have it both ways.

I know of crossdressers who do not visit this site precisely because it is dominated by those who crossdress for transgendered reasons which they do not relate to.

The whole theory that women are not crossdressing when wearing mens clothing rests on narrowly defining crossdressing as presenting as the opposite sex. But when you examine crossdressers outside this narrow definition the theory falls apart. The only real difference between non transgendered crossdressers and GGs is time. GG crossdressing has been socially accepted for decades so that GGs no longer have to think about gender when choosing their clothes. That was not the case a generation ago.

Should non transgendered men who crossdress also be mad that they are called crossdressers?

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Originally Posted by Sue101

I know of crossdressers who do not visit this site precisely because it is dominated by those who crossdress for transgendered reasons which they do not relate to.

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Then why would a birth male feel better about himself when he wears feminine clothing? To just say, "I like the clothes" doesn't explain much, IMO. The way we all choose to present ourselves is very telling of our internal landscapes.

Maybe my views that the majority of men who wear feminine fashions are transgender have been influenced by the majority posts in this forum; but even in real life at the TG support group my SO belongs to, the members there are most definitely presenting as women, and not as guys wearing skirts.

Other than perhaps fetish CDs, how many men do you (or others ... I'm not trying to single you out) know personally who wear dresses, and what percentage are not attempting to present as women? I'm guessing it would be very small.

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Originally Posted by Sue101

Should non transgendered men who crossdress also be mad that they are called crossdressers?

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Absolutely.

Why should a man be called a crossdresser when he substitutes a denim skirt for shorts with otherwise standard male attire - T shirt with men's shoes? It feels nice not having the wedge of cloth against one's external privates. When I wear such an outfit I am in no way, shape, or form trying to pass as a woman.

When I wear such an outfit I have the feeling of a cis-male. Otherwise I would wear a dress.

John

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Originally Posted by JohannaH

Why should a man be called a crossdresser when he substitutes a denim skirt for shorts with otherwise standard male attire - T shirt with men's shoes? It feels nice not having the wedge of cloth against one's external privates.

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I think you are rationalizing. If a guy merely doesn't want the wedgie feel, he can purchase looser pants, in less stiff fabrics than blue jeans. Dockers makes them, in microfiber fabrics that are considerably softer.

And granted, the guys who do wear decidedly male looking skirts (there are not many, believe me) may fit your description/justification, and I also would not consider them to be transgender.

But again, why would a guy possibly want to wear an article of women's clothing, the girlier the better, if not to express a degree of TG identity? What you are saying just doesn't apply to the majority of the people here.

Reine,

You do not have external genitalia as a genetic woman. So how do you know how the wedge of cloth feels against them? No matter how soft the cloth is there is still that feeling. As a matter of fact when a man purchases high-quality pants one of the considerations is which side does he tuck in his testicles.

As far as basketball shorts with the low crotch I think they are an abomination in how they look.

When I wear what I described in the last posting I really am not in a girlie mood.

I'm glad you see my point. If you want to see a forum where there are cis-males that wear kilts, skirts, and dresses you might want to check out

www.skirtcafe.org .

John

Sandra, this is pretty heady stuff! Here I am on a Monday morning sitting at a computer screen wearing a very attractive black and white dress, nude sheer hosiery, white bra and panties, a white slip, white garter girdle, black two inch heels and a wig. Why? I went to wikipedia to read the 'accepted' definition of a cross-dresser. I've decided I am NOT a cross-dresser. I have decided I am a multi-gendered individual. I am not suffering from schizophrenia. I am well aware I am a genetic male. I have all the male plumbing. I enjoy doing male things-things my wife perceives as male things. I also enjoy doing female things that many people ascribe only to females. So be it. When I want to do female things, I feel most comfortable dressing as a female. En femme I forget I am a male.

Why? Well, after forty years of doing male things outside the home- go to war, get blown away, work at a 8-4 job I did not like to support a wife and children, mow the law, etc, I developed a liking to cooking and baking, tending flower beds. Maybe, I perceived female 'things' as less stressful. My wife will blast me with what the hell do you think I do when you're at work- give birth to kids, wash diapers, clean the house, etc. She's right! I'm right! Forget taking care of the kids and diapers. Nobody like that.

So when my mind wants to act out in a womanly way, I act out en femme. I present as a female during those times, because my mind is en femme also. I am not a male wearing a dress for physical comfort. I am a female with male plumbing.

PS: As a male or a female I like football, so I think I will get a feminine cut football jersey I see on those hot looking chicks on television commercials. No cheese head tho!

Couldn't agree with you more Sandra! I don't know why people put so many labels on us and judge us the way they do.
We are all people at the end of the day no matter what we choose to wear and i just wish that more people would realise it.

If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up. Every now and then someone comes in here with some lame explanation why it's OK for women to dress like men. Whatever women do is OK. Whatever men do is wrong! I'm not buying it! :straightface:

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Originally Posted by Sandra

Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not.
1. We are not trying to present as a male unless the woman is FtM
2. We don’t go around wearing binders
3. We don’t stuff our trousers
Basically we just wear the clothes that are designed for us. Some will say what about wearing our SO’s top etc, yes some may wear those clothes but again we are not trying to emulate a male.

Most of you on here are trying to emulate a female and this is where the difference is, you want/try to be as near dam it female, whereas a female just wears the clothes and still presents as a woman.

Of course all of this goes out of the window if you are FtM, and they have just as many problems as an MtF has if not more. I just wonder of you realise how much anger and hurt some of these comments cause the FtMs, becasue a lot on here still class the FtMs as females and not males.

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Nicely said Sandra. I can hear my SO, Ronnie, roaring with agreement too.

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Originally Posted by JohannaH

Reine,

You do not have external genitalia as a genetic woman. So how do you know how the wedge of cloth feels against them? No matter how soft the cloth is there is still that feeling.

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With all due respect, then why hasn't there been a massive rebellion among men against wearing pants, in much the same way that women in the 50s stopped wearing skirts for day-to-day stuff? Had this happened, you can be sure that the fashion industry would have responded. In fact, there have been attempts by some designers to provide man skirts, but they've been rejected by males (presumably because they didn't feel the necessity of wearing them), and by CDers because the styles aren't feminine enough.

You are in the minority, and unless I am misreading your posts, you come off as if the average guy feels the same way you do. I'm sure that men who are not interested in presenting as women can and do find clothing that is comfortable. :)

Also, I can turn the tables and talk about the constraining feeling of wearing a bra. A lot of GGs will agree with me, yet (excluding the F2Ms), we don't walk around presenting as males, even if we choose to not wear the bra.

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Originally Posted by Melinda G

If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up.

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Hmmm. You really thing so? :D There are women who wear skirts. I even wear them sometimes. They certainly are in the media and in all the fashion catalogues as well. I don't buy this as the main reason a CDer chooses to dress. But, if it's for fetish reasons, then it makes sense.

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Every now and then someone comes in here with some lame explanation why it's OK for women to dress like men. Whatever women do is OK. Whatever men do is wrong! I'm not buying it!

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Melinda,

I feel the same way. The only dresses my wife wears is a sun dress that is not intended to be worn outside the house. Otherwise she wears only pants and shorts. If she would dress more lady-like I would be content to simply wear my denim skirts with otherwise men's articles of clothing.

I do not bash women for wearing pants and shorts. I only wish society would be more tolerant of men wearing skirts, dresses, heels, and makeup, particularly when they are not trying to pass as women.

Reine,

I think what is going to happen is that instead of men gracefully integrating skirts and dresses into their masculine wardrobes is there is going to be an explosive reaction against the narrow constraints of male fashions. This will be in the form of crossdressing becoming an acceptable alternative for males for society in general.

John (Johanna)

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Originally Posted by Melinda G

If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up.

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Oh don't make me laugh, now it's our fault because we don't dress like you've said... what a load of :censor:

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Originally Posted by Melinda G

Every now and then someone comes in here with some lame explanation why it's OK for women to dress like men. Whatever women do is OK. Whatever men do is wrong! I'm not buying it! :straightface:

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I haven't said what men do is wrong...each has their own choice of how they dress and what they wear.

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Originally Posted by Melinda G

If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up. Every now and then someone comes in here with some lame explanation why it's OK for women to dress like men. Whatever women do is OK. Whatever men do is wrong! I'm not buying it! :straightface:

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What a load of absolute Bull Poop

TBPH a gg is :dh: when they try to give an opinion on their mode of dress. Because some MEN can't accept the fact that they can dress how they wish, in whatever they want to, there will be :flyingpig: before they will accept that a woman is not a crossdresser by nature of the fact that they are not wearing clothing normally associated with the opposite gender.

Why is that you ask, simple it is now accepted, by years of fighting for the right to have the clothing they wear accepted as normal attire. When MEN get off their Fat backsides and fight for the same recognition, then they will lose the title of "crossdresser", until that day, don't paint everyone with the same brush.

I'm always a little amused and a lot befuddled whenever I see a thread like this. I highly doubt any of the CD's on here that say women are crossdressing by wearing pants are attempting to demean or even anger women. I suspect its more an intense frustration at their own inability to express themselves in society. Fashion always does 180's if you follow history, at one time leggings and heels were all the rage for men. Now they aren't. I strongly suspect if pants were considered a feminine article of clothing, us crossdressers would be wearing pants. It's just the nature of the beast.

I read comments online on a daily basis that appear "wrong" however, declarations, ultimatums, or belittling their idea is not really going to effectively squash it. Women fought for their right to wear pants. We as crossdressers have not, and thus their is frustration and sometimes a little jealousy that women can and do wear what they choose. Again I doubt the view is meant to be at all malevolent, and if it is, that idea is most clearly in the minority.

I really don't understand the offense taken to being accused of being a crossdresser though. Why does it matter if some stranger online calls women crossdressers? Is there shame in that title? Or is it simply, that you are so caught up in correctly pigeonholing groups of people that the mis-labeling is angering/frustrating you?

Push comes to shove, we are all PEOPLE first and foremost, and range from every possible combination of background, personality, issues, strengths, weaknesses, fetishes, habits, and behaviors. Save the labels for cans of food.

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

I'm always a little amused and a lot befuddled whenever I see a thread like this. I highly doubt any of the CD's on here that say women are crossdressing by wearing pants are attempting to demean or even anger women. I suspect its more an intense frustration at their own inability to express themselves in society. Fashion always does 180's if you follow history, at one time leggings and heels were all the rage for men. Now they aren't. I strongly suspect if pants were considered a feminine article of clothing, us crossdressers would be wearing pants. It's just the nature of the beast.

I read comments online on a daily basis that appear "wrong" however, declarations, ultimatums, or belittling their idea is not really going to effectively squash it. Women fought for their right to wear pants. We as crossdressers have not, and thus their is frustration and sometimes a little jealousy that women can and do wear what they choose. Again I doubt the view is meant to be at all malevolent, and if it is, that idea is most clearly in the minority.

I really don't understand the offense taken to being accused of being a crossdresser though. Why does it matter if some stranger online calls women crossdressers? Is there shame in that title? Or is it simply, that you are so caught up in correctly pigeonholing groups of people that the mis-labeling is angering/frustrating you?

Push comes to shove, we are all PEOPLE first and foremost, and range from every possible combination of background, personality, issues, strengths, weaknesses, fetishes, habits, and behaviors. Save the labels for cans of food.

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But did the men of yesteryear wear breast forms and makeup? I think the point is that for many, it is not just cross dressing and it is not just about the clothes. You have to ask yourself where you are in the spectrum and if you simply want to wear a dress and heels, then go for it cause that is in my view crossdressing. If you want to appear to be a woman, then I think it goes a bit farther than that. Nothing wrong with either. Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

I really don't understand the offense taken to being accused of being a crossdresser though. Why does it matter if some stranger online calls women crossdressers? Is there shame in that title? Or is it simply, that you are so caught up in correctly pigeonholing groups of people that the mis-labeling is angering/frustrating you?

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Because it isn't who we are. If someone called be a lesbian, I'd correct them as well, even though I see nothing wrong with being a lesbian. In fact, if I were I would be quite militant about it.

I think that most of the GGs here are invested in supporting the community, since it is a way to support their partners indirectly. And when there are scads of CDers who minimize their motives by insisting on believing that what they do is just about the clothes (which is implied when they say that women CD when they wear pants), it perpetuates a sort of denial about their reasons for dressing. If that makes sense. And I don't know about you, but it disturbs me to see people in denial who perpetuate a falsehood, especially in forums where there are many newbies (in addition to their GG SOs), who come here looking for guidance or answers. And that's not even mentioning the huge numbers of people who do read this forum and who are not registered as members.

If scads of GGs should come to this forum and keep insisting that all CDers are gay, despite persistent explanations to the contrary, it wouldn't come off very well here and there would be just as much impatience among the CDers every time they read such a comment.


You know what bugs me the most? The CDers who come to threads like these and don't even bother reading the posts from the GGs and consider what is said, and who continue to perpetuate the nonsense. :eek: lol

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Originally Posted by Sandra

.....Most of you on here are trying to emulate a female and this is where the difference is, you want/try to be as near dam it female, whereas a female just wears the clothes and still presents as a woman....

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Sandra, you are exactly right.

To be considered a crossdresser, a person must wear the cloths of the opposite sex and have at least one other factor of having either a transgender desire (presenting as opposite sex, identifying with opposite sex, etc) or a fetish fantasy, or both.

A female wearing mens pants for welding or other work - not crossdressing.

A female wearing a necessary male American football uniform, to play in the game - not crossdressing.

A Navy Seal wearing pantyhose trudging through the swamps of S. America to keep the water critters from going where they do not belong - not crossdressing.

There is an infinate list of things that people have to wear for the proper occasion and purpose, that was originially designed for the opposite sex, that would NOT be considered crossdressing.

There are also plenty of women's articles, accessorys and jewelry that men can and do wear that is not crossdressing. Obviously the public wouldn't see it that way, but males could wear functional skirts and dresses and not really be crossdressing. In some traditional Greek orthodox venues, the males wear some of the most beautiful dresses and skirts.

My point is, crossdressing is in the heart or mind, not specificly what you wear.

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Originally Posted by Mary Morgan

But did the men of yesteryear wear breast forms and makeup?

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I believe there was a time when men were the ones who wore makeup and not the women. However, I am not aware of any era where men wearing breast forms was considered mainstream.

Good posting Jonianne.

John (Johanna)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Because it isn't who we are. If someone called be a lesbian, I'd correct them as well, even though I see nothing wrong with being a lesbian. In fact, if I were I would be quite militant about it.

I think that most of the GGs here are invested in supporting the community, since it is a way to support their partners indirectly. And when there are scads of CDers who minimize their motives by insisting on believing that what they do is just about the clothes (which is implied when they say that women CD when they wear pants), it perpetuates a sort of denial about their reasons for dressing. If that makes sense. And I don't know about you, but it disturbs me to see people in denial who perpetuate a falsehood, especially in forums where there are many newbies (in addition to their GG SOs), who come here looking for guidance or answers. And that's not even mentioning the huge numbers of people who do read this forum and who are not registered as members.

If scads of GGs should come to this forum and keep insisting that all CDers are gay, despite persistent explanations to the contrary, it wouldn't come off very well here and there would be just as much impatience among the CDers every time they read such a comment.


You know what bugs me the most? The CDers who come to threads like these and don't even bother reading the posts from the GGs and consider what is said, and who continue to perpetuate the nonsense. :eek: lol

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Granted. It just seems very peculiar to me. (It was a legitimate question, I really don't quite understand it.) As for the denial, perhaps I have a soft spot for that because I empathize and once had the very same perspective. I think it's a natural defense mechanism to a reality that is difficult for many of us to come to grips with. It took me decades to come to accept myself, and sometimes minimizing it when I was younger made it a little easier for me.

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Originally Posted by Mary Morgan

But did the men of yesteryear wear breast forms and makeup? I think the point is that for many, it is not just cross dressing and it is not just about the clothes. You have to ask yourself where you are in the spectrum and if you simply want to wear a dress and heels, then go for it cause that is in my view crossdressing. If you want to appear to be a woman, then I think it goes a bit farther than that. Nothing wrong with either. Just my two cents.

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You missed my point. ;) My reference to that if it was "feminine" to wear pants, then we would wear pants is exactly what you just said. It goes deeper than the clothes.

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Originally Posted by Sandra

Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not.
1. We are not trying to present as a male unless the woman is FtM
2. We don’t go around wearing binders
3. We don’t stuff our trousers
Basically we just wear the clothes that are designed for us. Some will say what about wearing our SO’s top etc, yes some may wear those clothes but again we are not trying to emulate a male.

Most of you on here are trying to emulate a female and this is where the difference is, you want/try to be as near dam it female, whereas a female just wears the clothes and still presents as a woman.

Of course all of this goes out of the window if you are FtM, and they have just as many problems as an MtF has if not more. I just wonder of you realise how much anger and hurt some of these comments cause the FtMs, becasue a lot on here still class the FtMs as females and not males.

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Really???

Then help me understand the concept of "the boyfriend jacket", "boy-shorts", the line of women's underwear called "Jockey for Her" i.e. female versions of the ubiquitous "tighty-whiteys", why the garment that used to be called a "blouse" somehow morphed into becoming a "women's shirt", and why every once in a while designers like to bring out styles of women's shoes clearly meant to resemble men's brogues.

And why do businesswomen wear "power suits" to emulate men in the corporate world as a way to be taken more seriously, upwardly mobile, and career-oriented?

Why do some women like to wear men's ties as part of a mannish-looking outfit to make a fashion statement?

What was behind the masculine "Annie Hall" look that Diane Keaton popularized many years ago?

Why did pop singer Avril Lavigne raid Daddy's closet and steal his ties to go along with her tank tops and camouflage pants to create her unique edgy i.e. tough "rocker chick" style when she first started out? Girl power?

The truth is, women for reasons best known to themselves often like to wear masculine-themed clothes, and it is not only about their alleged comfort.

I'm not a psychologist, but I can't help but believe that there is an erotic component that causes them to favor wearing that type of clothing - perhaps a sub-conscious way of getting closer to their man (or being continuously reminded of his presence/existence) by feeling these clothes envelop them in the absence of actually being held in his strong masculine and protective arms. Isn't that also why so many vulnerable-feeling pregnant women like to wear their SO's dress shirts like nighties when there are plenty of specially designed maternity clothes around that will do the same job?

Isn't that why Barbra Streisand, in her song of many years ago entitled "Honey, Can I Put On Your Clothes?" sang, and I quote:

[I]"Honey, honey, can I put on your clothes?
Because they feel so good
And they feel like you
Oh, won`t you please let me
Because they get to me
They touch me and then move me
I get to thinking I won`t be needin`
Anything more to keep me warm
I feel the feeling of you
All the way through
No other feeling will ever do

Honey, honey, can I put on your clothes?
Because they feel so good
And they feel like you
They`re just like old friends
When we`re together
They comfort me and soothe me
They`re not brand new
They`re a little worn through,
But they're comfy and roomy
They do something to me
And when I stay at home
And you`re far away
I won`t be lonely all through the day

Honey, honey, can I put on your clothes?
Because they feel so good
And they feel like you
I feel the feeling of you
All the day through
No other feeling will ever do

Honey, honey, can I put on your clothes?
Because they feel so good
And they feel like you...
Honey, honey, honey. . ."

Sure, this is a throwback to the days when the man was considered to be the protector of the "little woman", and it doesn't have much relevance in today's post-industrial Western world, nor day and age of women's liberation. But old gender roles and expectations die hard, and many women still expect men to hold doors open for them, give up their seats to them on public transportation, and pick up the restaurant tab even when they are fully self-sufficient and often earn more than the man.

So maybe women can continue to get away with wearing men's or mannish-styled clothes (or dress and act like tomboys) in today's society without being called crossdressers, even if we, as men, are still stigmatized for doing the same thing in reverse because we continue to live in a male-dominated and largely homophobic society where being perceived to be a "sissy" is a bad thing, whereas for women to try to emulate men is considered to be a good thing.

But please don't try to tell me that for women to wear men's clothes (or feminized versions thereof) doesn't have an erotic component attached to that as well, and gives them a "kick" not unlike what we crossdressers experience when we cross the gender divide in the type of clothing we favor.

OK for all of you who believe that Genetic Females are crossdressers simply because they wear an item of clothing normally asscociated with Genetic Males, try this for size, but before you do, be prepared for the consequences:

Get up right now from your computer, go to your SO or any other Genetic Female that is close to you and say " YOU WEAR TROUSERS, YOU ARE A CROSSDRESSER".

Then ask them if they wear them because they want to be a man, does it make them feel sexy, that is after you pick yourself off the floor.

:Pullhair: :Pullhair:

Being FTM I will tell you I wear men's clothes. If I wear female clothes I am cross dressing. I am not Female I am Male. But to me it is not about clothes it is about putting on the mask the world places on each and every one of us. The world wants us to but on the label of our birth. Women wear dresses boys wear pants. Yes women can wear pants and get away with it so what. Get over it. As MTF you have more research and better info on every aspect towards transitioning. As a FTM the transitioning info is not as known and surgery for the whole body is still in the early stages. Do I run around and complain? No I do what I have to make it through one day at a time. As for support system well there is not as much available. I am guessing for every one FTM there are maybe 9-10 MTF on this forum. As a MTF you have a big support in the Gay and Lesbian community. When a FTM comes out we are told we are sell outs and even have Lesbians act angry because we do not retain the appearance of being female. In a lot of the Gay community it is ok to be a Drag Queen even.
I wish we did not need labels but it is a hard habit to break. We all need to make a effort to drop the habit. We all have our problems. No one here has it easy.

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Originally Posted by Sandra

:Pullhair: :Pullhair:

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ROFL :^5::mods:

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Today, for the very first time, in probably a month or more, in these parts, I saw a lady come into Subway, in a pencil skirt, hose, and high heels. She was of a brown race, and I could see the little smile on her face, as if knowing she stood out, like an oasis in a desert! I really don't think most women even think about crossdressing, when they wear men
s clothes, BUT, those that buck the masses, and trends, and decide to be different, do dare to wear skirts dresses, hos, and DARE to show their legs!

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Originally Posted by Treetop Louise

I really don't think most women even think about crossdressing, when they wear men
s clothes, ,

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Geez.. another one... maybe the penny will drop.. at some point..... when woman wear pants they are not crossdressing and are not wearing mens clothes..... read the point of this thread... please... next time i will delete the post....

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Originally Posted by Melinda

If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up.

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Oh, what a load of horse poop! It would more likely induce more men to try on a dress now and then. And women who wear pants are dressed as women, for the most part.

Reine, I agree with most everything you said. As usual, you are a voice of well-thought-out reasoning. Others would do well to pay attention to what you say.

Leslie, excellent post. Whereas Sandra's original post has tons of merit, one cannot ignore and negate the obvious trend as you have presented it. It speaks to a double-standard, but it is a double-standard that will now and forever be ignored by society at large. So while you present a very valid point, the point is moot.

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Really???

Then help me understand the concept of "the boyfriend jacket", "boy-shorts", the line of women's underwear called "Jockey for Her" i.e. female versions of the ubiquitous "tighty-whiteys", why the garment that used to be called a "blouse" somehow morphed into becoming a "women's shirt", and why every once in a while designers like to bring out styles of women's shoes clearly meant to resemble men's brogues.

And why do businesswomen wear "power suits" to emulate men in the corporate world as a way to be taken more seriously, upwardly mobile, and career-oriented?

Why do some women like to wear men's ties as part of a mannish-looking outfit to make a fashion statement?

What was behind the masculine "Annie Hall" look that Diane Keaton popularized many years ago?

Why did pop singer Avril Lavigne raid Daddy's closet and steal his ties to go along with her tank tops and camouflage pants to create her unique edgy i.e. tough "rocker chick" style when she first started out? Girl power?

The truth is, women for reasons best known to themselves often like to wear masculine-themed clothes, and it is not only about their alleged comfort.

I'm not a psychologist, but I can't help but believe that there is an erotic component that causes them to favor wearing that type of clothing - perhaps a sub-conscious way of getting closer to their man (or being continuously reminded of his presence/existence) by feeling these clothes envelop them in the absence of actually being held in his strong masculine and protective arms. Isn't that also why so many vulnerable-feeling pregnant women like to wear their SO's dress shirts like nighties when there are plenty of specially designed maternity clothes around that will do the same job?

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Thanks for illustrating the double standard we all know exists. Women are free to wear pants, shirts, ties and mens shoes, and boy haircuts, and no one sees anything wrong it. And they do not have to present as men to be accepted. They are clearly presenting male traits however, for whatever reason, career advancement, attitude, etc.

But if I enjoy the feel of nylons, high heels and a dress, I pretty much have to go the whole route, makeup, wig, etc, and present as a female to avoid ridicule, snickers and possible assault. When it comes to men wearing female type clothing, just wearing a couple items is not an option. At least not in public.

Sandra ...sometimes it
is simply a matter of titles.... label confusion...whatever ...I betcha there's a fair majority who just think everyone here is crossdressing here... simply because of the name at the top of the page ..and they just figure that's the name of everyones game til threads like this comes along and they stand corrected...or slapped ...lol...:D

I was out on Saturday night with a small group of friends. One of the women who is a married mother of five children was dressed in boys clothes (jeans, checked lumberjack shirt, heavy boots). Her hair is cut very short in a man's style and she never wears make-up. She always dresses in this style and looks like a guy. She may not be pretending to be a guy but she tries as much as possible to look like one. No one has a problem with her doing this. However if I had turned up in anything remotely feminine then it would have been a completely diferent story. The fact remains that all types of dress are acceptable for women but a lot are not for men. However I would not consider wearing a frilly blouse with a man's suit. When I dress it's 100% female (pretty dress, make-up, wig, padding etc.) and I hope that anyone who sees me thinks that I am a women.

Maybe a bunch of men need to go out together wearing dresses to a local bar but not passing as women. I emphasize a bunch - so if someone tries to assault one of the men the would-be assailant gets a beating. There would be strength in numbers.

John (Johanna)

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Originally Posted by JohannaH

Maybe a bunch of men need to go out together wearing dresses to a local bar but not passing as women. I emphasize a bunch - so if someone tries to assault one of the men the would-be assailant gets a beating. There would be strength in numbers.

John (Johanna)

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this would be a great idea if you could find enough men that would be interested in that....
i suggest you ask around a forum where crossdressers hang out..i hear the guys like to wear women's clothes...just like you.

Fiona is exactly correct, and here is the punch line: Women fought for the right to wear whatever they wanted, and they were ridiculed for it. Have we fought the same fight??? NO!

So, let's stop grousing about it and get out there fight!

tina

My post may be axed, but, someone here said, that it is in the person's mind and heart, the intent, that is the biggy.

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Originally Posted by az_azeel

Geez.. another one... maybe the penny will drop.. at some point..... when woman wear pants they are not crossdressing and are not wearing mens clothes..... read the point of this thread... please... next time i will delete the post....

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Anyone that CAN'T see the difference between women that buy pants and shirts in the WOMEN'S dept. and men that buy dresses in the WOMEN'S dept. will NEVER understand what Reine is trying to say!:brolleyes:

If they sold dresses in the MEN'S dept., I wouldn't buy them! WHY!?
Because I'm a CROSSDRESSER!:straightface:

I will have to agree with Sandra on her take about wanting to appear as a women. I believe that most men who dress in female garb are attempting to pass as female or at least have the untrained eye think they are female. Now looking at Pythos' comment I will agree there are some men who wear female clothing and do not want or try to pass. That's fine I am not one of them. I don't really know why I have this desire to dress as a female and pass as a female but I do and I enjoy it so I stopped worrying about it a long time ago Call it a hobby for lack of a better term. I would guess most of us CD's on this board would like to be read as a female when we are out and about. I see in this thread there are some that don't thats fine.
After looking at Steve Tyler on American ideal maybe he is one of the latter. then again maybe not.
To me passing some of the time is what I find fun. Nothing thrills me more when some one says to me "you look great If I didn't know I wouldn't have guessed" That does happen although never enough

I could agree more I want to full some of the people some of time. Its FUN

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Originally Posted by Sandra

Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not.

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Check the profiles....you'll come to the conclusion that it's an age thing.

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Originally Posted by clayfish

I thought I had sorted out in my head the difference between CD, TV, TS, ... and had firmly come to the conclusion that I was a male CDer who enjoyed wearing women's clothes.
Again, I am definitely NOT trying to emulate a female.

And I get SO MAD when certain posters insist on referring to us collectively as "girls".

Now I have problems ... if I am not a CDer, should I be on this forum?
And if not, where do I belong?
AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!

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You do understand that it's all grey and muddy don't you? That the above categories are murky and self defined? That most of the "crossdressers" who join websites such as this have some form of transgender identity, and folks like you are less common, and even more less common in the in-person support groups.

It's not a case of "where you belong", you just need to realize that you're not like the majority here, and that the others who have a transgender identity of some kind have a closer sense of group identity than folks like you do.

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Originally Posted by Tricia Lee

If it was acceptable for me to simply wear whatever women's-style clothes I wanted, I might never have attempted to go the whole nine-yards dressing enfemme.

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So it's all the women's fault? If they all dressed like Donna Reed or June Cleaver you wouldn't be wearing women's clothes. That's bullshit and you know it.

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For women it is the complete opposite. I'm not even talking about FtM's. Regular women can wear *any* item of men's clothing *anywhere*, and not raise a single eyebrow.

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They're not wearing men's clothing, they bought their clothing in the women's department.

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I think FtM's have it a lot easier for that reason. They can wear whatever they want. They can even present completely as a man, and AFAIK be completely secure that they won't be hassled or looked down on.

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Why don't you make that statement to the FTM's here and see what kind of response you get. Ha ha ha ha ha.

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One example. I work with a woman who wears guy jeans, a guy polo shirt, and hiking boots every day. She has a men's haircut and unisex wire framed glasses.

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Are you sure they're from the men's department? Did you check the tags?

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Originally Posted by Sandra

Really you should talk to some of the FtMs on this forum and see what they have to say about that.

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I'm imagining the response

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Originally Posted by Pythos

In the technical aspect women that wear pants ARE crossdressing. Pants from the get go were for men. They were from riding breeches, and were for horse riding, a thing that for the most part only men did.

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No they're not, because while that may have been the case 100 years ago it isn't "NOW". Times change.

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If a woman wore an outfit consisting of pants, dress shoes, and socks, and presented as a female, would she be called a crossdresser?

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No, because she bought those things in the women's departments.

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Originally Posted by Sue101

I know of crossdressers who do not visit this site precisely because it is dominated by those who crossdress for transgendered reasons which they do not relate to.

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Well if they DON'T join this site, or the in-person support groups, then things won't change and such places will be filled with crossdressers who have a transgender identity of some kind. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

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Originally Posted by Melinda G

If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up. Every now and then someone comes in here with some lame explanation why it's OK for women to dress like men. Whatever women do is OK. Whatever men do is wrong! I'm not buying it! :straightface:

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Originally Posted by JohannaH

I feel the same way. The only dresses my wife wears is a sun dress that is not intended to be worn outside the house. Otherwise she wears only pants and shorts. If she would dress more lady-like I would be content to simply wear my denim skirts with otherwise men's articles of clothing.

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<sarcasm> why yes, it's all the women's fault, if they wore dresses and stockings and girdles and acted just like june cleaver you two wouldn't be crossdressers</sarcasm> A little bit of chauvinism there don't you think?

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I only wish society would be more tolerant of men wearing skirts, dresses, heels, and makeup, particularly when they are not trying to pass as women.

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Well considering that most of men who DO go out in women's clothing DO want to pass as women and that people like you tend to be of the "extremely closeted" sorts who don't go out, it's all moot isn't it.

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This will be in the form of crossdressing becoming an acceptable alternative for males for society in general.

John (Johanna)

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You wish! But if you want it to happen you'll actually have to DO something rather than hide in your closet and say, "I can't go out till people are accepting"

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

II strongly suspect if pants were considered a feminine article of clothing, us crossdressers would be wearing pants. It's just the nature of the beast.

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There are crossdressers who wear women's pants. :-)

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Women fought for their right to wear pants. We as crossdressers have not, and thus their is frustration and sometimes a little jealousy that women can and do wear what they choose.

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That's right.

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Originally Posted by Treetop Louise

[COLOR="dimgray"] I really don't think most women even think about crossdressing, when they wear men
s clothes,

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But they're not wearing men's clothes, they're wearing women's clothes, that they bought in the women's department. I understand that your age affects your viewpoint on this, but in case you were absent for the past 70 or so years, but pants are women's clothing.

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Originally Posted by TGMarla

Oh, what a load of horse poop!

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Yeah, it's just rationalization.

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So while you present a very valid point, the point is moot.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Melinda G

Women are free to wear pants, shirts, ties and mens shoes, and boy haircuts, and no one sees anything wrong it.

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Most women aren't wearing those things, and the ones that do, get plenty of hassle. Go ask the butches and FTM's

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Originally Posted by suchacutie

Fiona is exactly correct, and here is the punch line: Women fought for the right to wear whatever they wanted, and they were ridiculed for it. Have we fought the same fight??? NO!

So, let's stop grousing about it and get out there fight!

tina

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It's not going to happen, because too many of the "Manly Men in skirts crowd" are scared. They want everything to magically change without them doing anything because they're scared of ridicule, even more so that the crossdressers with transgender identities are.

Veronica

Good grief! Why would anyone take offense at something said on a message board? There are a lot of people here with a lot of different opinions. If I see something I disagree with, I take it with a grain of salt and move on. Why does EVERYTHING have to be such a big deal these days? Nothing in life says I have the right to not be offended. The only way someone can "offend" me is if I give them the power to. Let's move along... :)

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Fiona is exactly correct, and here is the punch line: Women fought for the right to wear whatever they wanted, and they were ridiculed for it. Have we fought the same fight??? NO!

So, let's stop grousing about it and get out there fight!

tina

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That does it! I'm burning my jockstrap in front of the White House.:eek:

Now for the bonus round : Why is this site called "Crossdressers.com"?

Oh my gosh Sandra, you are getting some feedback in one of your threads now or what? :) To me, this is a somewhat touchy subject so I am going to tread really gently here and just share an opinion I have about the way I think about this. IMHO (yes I am saying this as humbly as I can) if you consider "crossdressing" as wearing clothes that are designed for and manufactured in styles that are meant for that gender's body shape then I do think the person, either male or female, (in its literal term) is crossdressing if they wear the opposite gender's clothes. So when Sandra says:

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Originally Posted by Sandra

Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not. Basically we just wear the clothes that are designed for us.

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I couldn't agree more with her. She is dead on correct. Clothes that are made for women even if they are an ordinary t-shirt and pants/jeans etc, then the women IMO aren't crossdressing because they're (according my definition) wearing clothes that are designed for them. i.e. women wearing women's clothes.

But, I gotta tell ya I really like these two comments here:

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Originally Posted by Sue101

I agree very much. Male crossdressers are being singled out because societal prejudice forces many to emulate women because we dont feel right being seen as a man in a dress. Remove the prejudice and stigma and we would end up with new generations of men naturally integrating feminine clothing into their presentation just as women do with men's fashion.

Either all men and women are crossdressing and none of us are. I dont like how people want to distance women's use of male clothing and claim it is something completely different. It isn't, it the just the prejudice that creates the gap and resulting differing behaviors.

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Originally Posted by sissystephanie

I said it already, but I will say it again! If you wear any clothing made for the opposite sex, you are crossdressing. That is true whether you are male or female! And the reason for wearing the clothes makes no difference! Yes, some women do wear mens pants and shirts. They are crossdressing, but they get away with it because the public is used to that.

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These comments make total sense to me if you consider crossdressing purely from the "clothes only" standpoint. Admittedly though, there is for a lot of folks on here (me included) where something else is going on, it's not only a fashion freedom statement for people like me (however, I do wear obvious girly clothes but still present as a guy all the time :devil:) but when we've previously talked in other threads about what was the definition of "crossdressing" no one said you had to feel a certain way or not feel a certain way to be a crossdresser. If I remember correctly most people talked about wearing clothes that were designed for the opposite gender being the defining factor. So in that sense, IMO both men and women can and do crossdress but it's socially acceptable for one and not the other.

Now before I get lampooned, I do recognize that when a guy crossdresses it's almost certainly different for him (how he feels when he's doing it) than when a woman crossdresses (wears clothes that are designed for a man) but that's not the point I wanted to demonstrate. I was talking about the fact that "technically speaking" women can and do crossdress, but it's accepted in society as not being a problem, and I'm ok with that, I just wish that in this particular case, what was good for the goose was also good for the gander! Just my :2c:

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit

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This will be in the form of crossdressing becoming an acceptable alternative for males for society in general.

John (Johanna)

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You wish! But if you want it to happen you'll actually have to DO something rather than hide in your closet and say, "I can't go out till people are accepting"

...

It's not going to happen, because too many of the "Manly Men in skirts crowd" are scared. They want everything to magically change without them doing anything because they're scared of ridicule, even more so that the crossdressers with transgender identities are.

Veronica

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Well, guess what - I wear denim skirts instead of shorts when the weather is warm, even when I am otherwise in drab. I also walk around the neighborhood wearing dresses, sometimes with my wife who is wearing pants or shorts. I do NOT keep my "enhanced selection" a secret by ANY means.

I do my part to try to make it acceptable for men to wear skirts and dresses by wearing them openly as a man.

John (Johanna)

It's not so much that I am trying to fool anyone, or present as a female. I have no interest in men. I just enjoy wearing womens clothes, and I don't care for the "Budweiser Boys" look. Therefore , I have to look somewhat passable to avoid looking stupid.:battingeyelashes:

I do have my hair long enough so it looks passable on a woman. And I am not flat chested, and I also have hips. So I really don't have to do a whole lot to look acceptable wearing a dress.

Johanna (John)

Like Rodney King asked, "Can't we all just get along?" When i wrote , that women don't think about cross dressing, when they put on male type clothes, what I should have wrote, was, it is not an issue with them, anymore, since society accepts it, and, it does not even enter their thoughts. By the way, I have several lesbian friends, who dress like men, and i look at the heart, as God does, not the outward appearance! Can't we all just get along?

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

If they sold dresses in the MEN'S dept., I wouldn't buy them! WHY!?
Because I'm a CROSSDRESSER!:straightface:

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True for me too.

The worst possible crossdresser scenario is the one that many here seen to wish for: being able to buy and wear whatever clothes they want with no stigma attached. If that happened then there would not be a mens clothing department and a womans clothing department, there would be a unisex clothing department. How then would a crossdresser like me crossdress?

I disagree. It would be such a relief for me if dresses, skirts, and heels were available in the men's department.

Johanna (John)

Feel free to disagree for yourself. But, your posts do not speak to me or my needs as a crossdresser.

I’m a transfeminine person, but I don’t dress to present as a cisfemale. I present mainly as a feminine male, very deliberately, primarily with feminine accessories.

The word crossdresser is a negative term to me because it’s never just about the clothes. It doesn’t accurately describe anyone. It doesn’t tell the whole truth about transgender people and it says too much about cisgender people. I think everyone should be offended by this label.

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Originally Posted by suchacutie

Fiona is exactly correct, and here is the punch line: Women fought for the right to wear whatever they wanted, and they were ridiculed for it. Have we fought the same fight??? NO!

So, let's stop grousing about it and get out there fight!

tina

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This. Women aren't ever crossdressers in Western society (except the aforementioned MtF wearing women's clothing, which wouldn't count as a woman, ack, you know what I mean!). We aren't crossdressers because our grandmothers fought this fight for us. Thank you Marlene Dietrich and Katharine Hepburn. So it doesn't matter if we get a little twinge of pleasure putting on a power suit or men's motorcycle boots. We aren't put in a box.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Then why would a birth male feel better about himself when he wears feminine clothing?

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This shows you are only focusing on that one section of crossdressers who do it for gender reasons - as Joanne said there is a big difference between crossdressers and gendercrossers. Many crossdressers do not wear clothes to feel better about themselves, they do it because it is fun, exciting, stimulating and is great escapism from their male role and responsibilities. Others because they just like the look and want personal choice.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Maybe my views that the majority of men who wear feminine fashions are transgender have been influenced by the majority posts in this forum; but even in real life at the TG support group my SO belongs to, the members there are most definitely presenting as women, and not as guys wearing skirts.

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Precisely! Crossdressers who do not feel they are part woman do not go to TG support groups.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Other than perhaps fetish CDs, how many men do you (or others ... I'm not trying to single you out) know personally who wear dresses, and what percentage are not attempting to present as women? I'm guessing it would be very small.

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Actually quite the opposite the numbers are large. Many crossdressers have only a small stash of lingerie, others have no stash and borrow their wives' lingerie. If they were transgendered they would hardly just focus on lingerie? Even when you do see crossdressers in public, many of them are only interested in presenting as hookers. Again is this what a transgendered person would do?

Large numbers of crossdressers are not transgendered. They are merely intertested in enjoying very specific female gender roles. The sheer number and volume of traffic of what you call fetish crossdressing sites should not be ignored. They started off the same way and have the same fantasies as transgendered crossdressers but their interpretation of what their behavior meant to them differs.

Getting back to the main point, all the arguments revolve around people mixing up the term crossdresser and the action of crossdressing. The overwhelming choice of women to buy pants over skirts does reflect a deliberate choice and it is not fashion because fashion houses overwhelmingly put women in skirts and dresses. You said a person's clothing choice reflects their internal landscape. So what does a woman's choice to wear only pants and not skirts reflect? And no lame excuses like comfort thanks.