You know, I find the op to be anoyingly true. Look at my reaction when I realized I had attracted the attention of what may have been a TS. I was all concerned of what OTHERs would think.
Now, I was able to wrestle with and defeat these feelings. I am now fully in love with this person (who is turning out to be GG to the best of my knowledge). I was able to see beyond her masculine build. Her personality shines like the moon in the midnight sky. She is a wonderful goof ball too.
Yeah but are we talking about innate sexual orientation? Not everyone finds their innate sexual orientation right away, identifies with it, or acts on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aprilrain
No very true, I didn't, at least not half of it anyway ; )Quote:
Originally Posted by Avana
Yeah this makes a lot of sense to me. I don't get the whole "Well, men are jerks so I decided to go with women." I can't force myself to like men regardless of how convenient it would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aprilrain
I think its simple MTFs are like most people out there straight. Why would you change your orientation just because you switched teams?
Well, I forced myself to like women for my entire life up to a few years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber99
I wanted men, but I just refused to acknowledge it. I basically put my fingers in my ears and did "la la la la".
Since I've "come out" as myself, I've experienced a freedom I could never imagine. Staying away from men wasn't nearly as hard as pretending to be sexually attracted to women.
Denial is frighteningly powerful.
Even though I primarily identify as a lesbian and I have been sexually abused by males, grew up with and seen the
worst side of males and won't ever be played for a fool by a male, especially when it comes to love & romance I
cannot deny that there has always been that ever present desire to be loved properly as a woman by the right man.
My only issue is that I haven't met Mr Right yet, but when I do, I am sure that things will be radically different for me.
Yeah... women were always a job that I had to make myself do. Men are fun and lovable and cuddly and sexy :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
Even before transition, I was with more men than women. It just felt right.
AH, but remember, when you switch gender - if your orientation stays the same, then you will switch whom you are attracted to ;) An example: a strait MTF transitions, now she is a strait woman, okay, that would mean she is now attracted to men. Clear as mud ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayla
This is how I was as well though I do think I have a genuine attraction to females I think its more sexual than anything. Right now I have no desire to be in a relationship with a woman but Id fool around with one. I think being attracted to woman made it possible to fool myself into believing that I was a heterosexual man. Eventually the sex became tedious in all my relationships with woman because I was expected to be the "man" not because I don't like sex with girls, I was jealous. But meanwhile my thought life was always me, a woman, with a man and rarely did I ever fantasize about having sex with woman. If I thought a girl was hot and started fantasizing about her inevitable I would just become her and be with a man LOL. It's amazing the things you can do in your head! The day I said "Screw it" regarding my gender issues was the same day I said "I guess I want to have sex with guys too" it wasn't an epiphany it was a cessation of a life time of lying to myself, that was months before I started HRT. At that point I could imagine having sex with a man but really wasn't sure about being involved romantically. If Hormones changed anything in me that is what it changed, my desire to be romantic with a man. It just feels right now whereas before it seemed like it would be awkward. As it turns out I have only been with woman as a man and with a man as a woman so I am truly heterosexual and the rest of you are all freaks : PQuote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
Could it possibly be that "all" the decent men want to be women?
You may be right, Karen. You know the saying: "[SIZE=1]Sometimes[/SIZE] the best man [SIZE=1]for the job[/SIZE] is a woman."
There is one thing I have heard about trans-women from their male partners where we do
have it over natal females and that is apparently we do know how to really please a guy.
So the best woman for the job, might turn out to really be a man ;)
I don't doubt it! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Moore
So maybe lesbians prefer natal women for the same reasons? :D
First let's deal with the "disproportionate" part. Compared to what? Women in general? Your dealing with a very small subset of the general population so there's likely to be lots of things we aren't average in.
From my reading I would say that part of it is timing. It seems that the majority of early transitioners (12-16 years old) end up being heterosexuals, ie interested in men. I'm sure the lack of a male puberty and the use of estrogen in the formative years have much to do with it. They are usually able to be socialized as young women and have a "normal" dating life in school.
Contrast that with those of us who have lived 30-40 years as a male. I think the lowest percent might be 30% with some quoting 50% being lesbian identified. It's hard to fight testosterone and years of socialization and imprinted. I do agree that a.little fear probably enters into the equation too.
By turning into a pizza?Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Moore
:heehee: Lallie
Yes, now do you want Anchovies on that as well? :heehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by LALady
Boy do I have a profoundly inappropriate joke as a response to that line. :shutup: :o :heehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Moore
^ You can PM it to me. :heehee:
So do I, but I guess I will just have to shut up too :shutup: :o :heehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon
could possibly be the little y in the xy genome that causes this even with hormones and srs, dna is still dna . xx full women xy partial women part man so even if u trick the body into thinking its xx its still xy , correct me if im wrong about that.
AIS women are xy and seem to be female gender identified and attracted to men for the most part. At least the few that have been public about their condition. I blame homophobia and intense conditioning of male-bodied young persons myself. But then again, show me the stats!Quote:
Originally Posted by danielle.cd
But it's so hard to collect, and to be able to trust, those stats.
:) Lallie
This assumes that xy chromosomes = male =likes females. what about gay people who have no gender identity issues what so ever and have assumably standard genes as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by danielle.cd
My feeling is that your gender preference of sexual partners is yours alone and it matters not what anyone else thinks. It doesn't even matter why your preference is what it is. Straight, gay, neither, or both, there should be no reprisals or explanations necessary. Of course, in the world we live in sexual orientation seems to matter to all too many people, but it's not only intrusive it is nobody's dang business.
That said, I find it easily explainable as to why (male-to-) female transsexuals are more prevalently attracted to other females than is the general non-TS public. Most of us spent our formative years fighting the transsexuality within us; as a result we may have consciously or unconsciously chosen to be attracted to females because that was what was expected of men, most especially those who grew up in previous generations than those coming of age today. I know that I refused to look at men as potential mates or partners for most of my life, even after I began telling people about myself about six years ago. I did this even as I would catch myself looking at some men "that way" over the years. I finally decided that I was no longer capable of fooling myself about my preferences. But even now, I don't limit my opportunities to men alone.
OMG.. seriously Kate?
Your suggestion is that girls decide to be lesbians because dating men is too hard? Seriously? This is your thesis?
Ok, I am going to say this slowly. Sexual. Preference. Is. Not. A. Choice.
Get it?
Dating men is easy! but maybe not if you're a B@#$%!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope
How do you figure this?Quote:
Finally lets face it, lesbians are less likely to reject a TS girl than a straight man is.
When I first heard about the existence of transsexuality I assumed that quite a lot of transwomen would be lesbian, because most males are attracted to women and I didn't see why that should change.
Yes, there are flaws with that line of reasoning, but at least I didn't assume that all transwomen would be androphilic like most people seem to.
Even more transwomen identify as bisexual than lesbian, and around 7% identify as asexual. (See the survey at http://www.thetaskforce.org/reports_and_research/ntds ) These are also out of proportion to the general population. Any hypothesis to answer this question must accomodate those facts as well.
And do you also suppose that cis lesbians just need to "learn to be with a man" in order to no longer be lesbian? If not, why do you make that claim for trans lesbians?
I read somewhere else that there are more straight men into "chicks with dicks" than there are transwomen to go around, but I'm entertaining the possibility that either, or both statistics are hokum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katesback
Yes, Kate's theory is seriously flawed - picking up a guy would be too darn easy for me. And the
only reason I haven't done it myself yet is because I am not interested at this point in my transition.
I totally believe this. There are a lot of guys who would date a pre-op as long as she was 100% passable. There are also plenty that date pre-ops that are almost passable like me ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
Exactly Melissa, I have actually had guys tell me that they have no
issue being with a pre-op girl just so long as you look like a woman.
Even new friends I meet don't know I am in transition unless I tell them,
so this crap that Katesback goes on with holds absolutely no water at all.
I like being with women because I connect better on an emotional level with them.
But, isn't this the issue? The majority of men are OK with pre-op and not post-op? I don't know one way or the other, just repeating stuff I've read here over the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Moore
Interesting question......definitely deserves deep discussion. Let's not get hostile, though. It really is a worthy discussion for us all.
From my perspective, I cannot tell you how many TG girls like yourselves I've met, including being at conferences like Southern Comfort and Keystone, who are on HRT, and are going through/ or have gone through various stages of surgeries, and are also married, kids, etc.
If you want to debate the ratio of hetero vs. bi.vs. gay TS, that's fine. Maybe someday, researchers and doctors will find that magic number. The reality is TS that are attracted to either or both sexes, gender and sexual preference are two different topics, which Kellycan27 pointed out.
Could it be that transsexual sexuality is a form of sexuality itself? I keep hearing this word pansexual.
As for me, I'm attracted to all things fem, I'm attracted to women but I often think about crossing that river into femalehood all the time, even thought the path of transition is not for me. I'm happy to be on the road of laser & electro hair removal, though my wallet's not happy. I'm definitely lez in my own mind, and often feel that my guy sexuality is getting in the way, and sometimes wish it weren't there. But unless I do HRT and change the plumbing, the guy aspect of me is always there.
Hi Reine,
I don't think anyone can draw any conclusions about what men really do favour, however
there is definitely a lot more interest in pre-op trans-women thanks to 'she-male' porn. :angry:
My main concern about that is whether or not guys just see you as a fantasy they want to fulfil
or as someone who they can make a commitment to and want to have permanently in their lives.
I had a male house-mate awhile back who had the hots for me really bad, he knew I was pre-op and was telling
me not to have surgery. But he had this unrealistic fantasy where he wanted to have a trans-girlfriend but also
wanted to keep seeing other men as well - no f**king way, especially when I asked him if he always had safe sex.
His reply was 'Sometimes" - so who the hell wants to get mixed up with some stupid admirer or tranny chaser that
is going to put your live in danger with the threat of HIV & STIs we face in the world today?
I have visited a number of TS social ( chat ) sites and I can tell you that a lot of the guys who visit with the express intent of meeting a TS seem to have more issues than the girls do. and there were plenty who were looking for "she males". This little song is a pretty good descriptive. video gamers, super hero's, cartoons, no or menial jobs....
http://youtu.be/7DGxXhVVxtM
Hi Kelly,
I also found the same trend when I had it written up on my profile that I was TS on a social networking/dating site.
The interesting thing was all the guys who contacted me had listed their sexual orientations as "Straight". However
about 80% of them had no issues admitting to me they were either bisexual or bi-curious & had no issues about being
with someone like me. It was a very interesting and eye-opening exercise because many revealed they had repressed
gender issues and fantasies. Eventually I got sick of it and removed the info about my gender status from my profile.
I think it may in fact be a trend. Whenever a new guy would join, he automatically became suspect. Why a TS instead of a GG? Are you looking for a girl with that "something" extra? Like it was almost expected. I think we would be way more likely to meet a quality guy out in the mainstream than on these TS social or dating sites. i think that "why do you want to meet a TS"? is an excellent question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Moore
Kelly, I can understand this happening on a TS Dating site, but I was on a regular social networking/dating
site which is what really surprised me most of all, because there there is a lot more natal women than trans
women they could choose from. So this is why it did shock me that so many straight guys are very interested
in pre-op trans women obviously because they wanted the best of both worlds in the one lover obviously. :heehee:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
These guys aren't straight. They do want pre-ops or CDs for that something extra. And what's so sad about this, are the CDs who fool themselves into believing these admirers are treating them like women.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melody Moore
I've learned a lot from Alice (Richard) Novik, author of "Alice in Genderland". She's a psychiatrist, unapologetically trans (both genders ... for now. She does not discount future changes), and in an open marriage with a GG. She is also unapologetic about the sexual aspect of being trans.
This is what she has to say about admirers: http://aliceingenderland.com/Manhunt.html
Alice knows that many TSs criticize her though, because she does agree with the concept of autogynephilia (which she says is heterosexuality turned inward), although she does speaks of AGP more in terms of how it affects CDs than TSs. Her entire site is well worth reading: http://aliceingenderland.com. She has recently come out with a revision of her book.
First, let me state clearly that I fall into the Bi category. I think this is because I am greedy and just like both :). I have read all the statics and theories of who likes what more pre-op or post-op. I can only speak for myself. As post-op I have never had a problem getting guys or women. I am to the point I can hardly remember ever being pre-op. As I recall, I never had any problem finding guys or girls. It's not so much the equipment but how you use it that matters ;). More importantly it is your personality and how you talk to and treat people. Keep in mind, I have never been on an online dating site. I haven't needed to. I have had all I can handle just by walking and talking to people.
You're absolutely correct in my experience, Reine. Mature males just AREN'T "bi curious" if they're straight! As a late dresser who went thru a prolonged, "If I like wearing dresses, I must be gay", stage, I finally realized I'm not. Because there's never been ANYTHING about males that I find attractive. Other than my early fantasies of a man treating me like a woman!
It's a lot like dressing. Many have been fascinated with fem and dressing thots from an early age. However, as an apparently vanilla straight male well into my 50's, the thot of trying on ladies things before then never entered my mind! In my experience, mature males, never mind what kind of clothing they r wearing, r not entirely straight if they want to fool around with a penis!
Guess I'm a lucky one that found a guy that is ok with me being pre-op, but would rather me be post-op. But he is one of the rare ones that sees people for who they are, not what they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
very true... i have seen it twice now.. the guy supports the pre op girls transition, and as soon as srs happens, its the beginning of the end.. it highlights the depth and strength of our internal gender identities and sexuality... i can only speculate why the guys left, but the obvious reason is they realized that their "girl", really was a WOMAN and that's not what they really wanted.. it happens to wives and girlfriends of ts women as well who want to support the transition, only to find they can't...
not every time, but the majority of the time...
Well, I think it's pretty simple really. The men who prefer TS's have homosexual tendencies but they just can't come to grips with it. They think they're straight because they don't like masculine men, in fact they like us to be as feminine as possible except for that one little thing. Some of them are very creepy largely because of the closeted nature of their sexuality, but many of them seem very well adjusted.
Oh, one more thing, the majority of men who are interested enough to chat with me online, lose interest rather quickly when they find out that I have no interest in topping them.
Happened to me everytime when I was pre-op and looked for a boyfriend on the Internet while advertising myself as trans. I found it supprising at first, but then realised it was quite ubiquitous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
The other thing Alice Novic suggests is that admirers are living vicariously through the TGs in their lives because they are frustrated TGs themselves, in denial. Alice believes it is only a matter of time before the boyfriend wants to be as pretty as his partner. Generally speaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
I came across a few guys on the site I mentioned that wanted someone to teach them how to dress upQuote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
and be all girly. But I have met a few crossdressers who are thinking about gender transition & I introduced
one of those people to this forum & who is a member now to learn more about being transgendered and to
explore where they might fit in to the gender spectrum.
one time at a trans event, a guy hit on me multiple times...about the 4th time we talked, he pulled out a bunch of pictures of himself all made up at a transformation salon...
he claimed he did it "for a lark", and that he was not gay and not a crossdresser..."OMG no!!" he said when i told him he was....
in the end, its important i think to realize that it may be simply another manifestation of the same thing crossdressers experience...they are just coping in their own way..they can't bring themselves to dress or admit they want..
crossdressing is inherently sexual, and they deserve the same amount of courtesy and respect that any crossdresser deserves..some people don't like that idea but i don't see how you can get around it..it touches on the whole idea of "my kind of crossdressing is ok, but yours is not" and the idea that crossdressing is highly sexual..both third rails...