Why are women's clothes so much better?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

We're just asking you to perhaps look inside yourselves to determine your deeper reasons for CDing. Is it really because women's clothing is more varied/colorful/comfortable, or is it because it is women's clothing, period, and this makes you feel prettier and sexier.

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This is very interesting, as I think it highlights the fact that people often do the same thing for different reasons. In my case the few article's of women's clothing I am able to keep hidden are not particularly more colorful than my male wardrobe, and are made of lower quality materials for sure. I guess for me it's about being able to express myself in different ways and experience some freedom from the pressure of the traditional male gender role; a combination of truthfulness and escapism. I'd be interested to hear others' reasons for CDing, and to see if enjoying the sensory elements of women's clothing is a primary motivation or one of many contributing factors.

Megan_Renee, thank you for starting this very interesting discussion. This is the reason I enjoy this community, being able to gain insight into the perspectives of others.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

We're just asking you to perhaps look inside yourselves to determine your deeper reasons for CDing. Is it really because women's clothing is more varied/colorful/comfortable,

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NO! NO! NO!

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Originally Posted by ReineD

or is it because it is women's clothing, period, and this makes you feel prettier and sexier.

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YES! YES! YES!

And all those "manskirts" you gave the link to, who'd want to dress like that? They still look like men. And who'd want to look like a man when he could look like a woman? Oh, right: there are still a few guys around who prefer to look like guys. I'd forgotten about them.

But this idea that we should try to persuade more guys to wear skirts so that it would be more acceptable for us to wear skirts: I think it's a lost cause. And I don't see any purpose in it. Because if they did get into skirts, it would be "manskirts", so those of us who want to look feminine would still be seen as freaks.

No, in the end, I think the only solution is for society in general simply to accept that TG people are TG people. I think that's scheduled for 3 PM (GMT) on Sunday. I've got some champagne on ice already.

Annabelle

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Megan, don't confuse a lively discussion for getting all wound up! :)

I think it's really good to talk about this, don't you?

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You're right... I was just looking for an excuse to hug... {{hug}} (giggle)

Megan
I definitely agree with u.
I also just luv the way that they feel.
Kimmyg

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Originally Posted by Megan_Renee

This is my perception of why Women's clothing is so much better. What do you all think?

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Because the clothes just make me feel right.

The first items I wore were a white peasant blouse and a long black skirt. Nothing sexy or eye appealing about them. They just felt 'right', or I just felt 'right', after I had them on.

I'm with Donna. The clothes just feel right with me. They are in line with who I am inside.

Hi Megan! This is one of those kinda threads that keep me thinking for a while after I read it. I would love to quote so many people here but I can't. I think most people are on the same page but as everyone is different, it is interesting to see the contrast. There certainly is no rong or wright answer. Overall, I tend to agree mainly with the notion that girls demand more attention and are more driven to get it.

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Originally Posted by AllieSF

Yep, men do not want the choice. Those that do then need to deal with being the exceptions to the norm. !

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This makes perfect sense to me. When I shop for clothes, I look at a lot of things that I would love to wear as a guy but i don't want the attention that comes with it (exception to the norm). It's easy being a guy...but it does get in the way of my feminine tendencies. And since I'm not gay, I do like guys but I looove girls and that isn't goin anywhere. so I am forced to stay away from certain male clothes I like because it'll scare away all my fishies lol xoxox

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I'm with Jenniferathome. The truth is, women's clothing are better because they are feminine and CDers get a kick out of presenting themselves in a feminine manner. It makes you feel pretty, which in turn makes you feel sexy.

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Hi Reine! I love reading your posts. Your insight is priceless and it's really cool how understanding you are. the quoted text is what I used to think before I realized that it wasn't so much the clothing as it was the feeling of being feminine that made me feel sexy. The clothes make me feel pretty but I don't need them to feel sexy. they help but not completely necessary. I'm not sure why it's like that for me but that's how it's always been. When i first started dressing, I realized nearly instantly that girl clothes express my body and body language better than mens clothes. XoXo

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Originally Posted by Pythos

As for myself, I have a trim body, and long legs. Why the heck should I hide that under ill fitting, baggy pants, (or even well fitting but still featureless pants?) Why can I not show them off under some nylons, and a skirt.

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I feel the exact same way Pythos! I'm a short thin guy at 5"6, and with a cruel world behind it, I didn't always fit in....Buuut...BUUUTTTT.......I turned a negative into a positive because I justify it by knowing that I am able to live another part of my life that is very accepting of my height! :battingeyelashes: That, and as a male, it's also made me a much stronger person cause I had something to prove to the male species..so I was forced to try harder and be the best I could be, always. XOXO :D

It is simple for me i do not care .I just like womens clothes better .When im dressed as a girl i feel better and i am thankful i can dress the way i can .It is my ying to my yang i shall live with it :)

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Originally Posted by DonnaT

Because the clothes just make me feel right.

The first items I wore were a white peasant blouse and a long black skirt. Nothing sexy or eye appealing about them. They just felt 'right', or I just felt 'right', after I had them on.

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Then would you say that the clothes make you feel more feminine (compared to wearing your guy clothes)? I suppose that one can feel feminine without necessarily feeling pretty or sexy. I feel feminine when I just wear my blue jeans and a soft sweater. I feel pretty when I've just washed my hair, put on some makeup, and have on a pretty dress. I feel sexy ... well, I won't tell you what I wear when I feel sexy. :p

Feeling comfortable or feeling right, however, is a bit unclear. A comfortable bed is comfortable and it feels right. lol So are sheepskin slippers and a soft, fleecy blanket. :) Or when I'm in my SO's arms. That feels right, like I belong there.

... to take it further then, when you and others say you 'feel right' does this mean that your appearance as women (even if the outfit is not particularly pretty or sexy), is more in line with who you feel you are internally?

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Originally Posted by Megan_Renee

This is my perception of why Women's clothing is so much better. What do you all think?

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[SIZE="2"]The variety of women’s clothing is definitely attractive, not to mention the colors (forbidden colors for males), the delicate fabrics, and the tactile sensations therein. With that in mind, what do YOU think about women who turn away from this embarrassment of riches? From my humble viewpoint, as a MtF crossdresser, I engage in fetishistic worship of even the most mundane female garment, but I would – my choices (as a male) are so limited, and dressing up is seen as some kind of exercise in flamboyance these days, regardless of what gender you may be. Nearly everybody is drab, so it’s only natural that I seek to break out of this casual constriction in a BIG way. The “wrong” clothes become right under these curious circumstances...

I wonder what a woman thinks about what she is expected to wear in the arena of social and emotional competition. Would she rather not be so colorful, or so revealing, or so vulnerable? Just like I wish to be less masculine, in appearance and feeling, perhaps SHE wants to be much less feminine and not draw attention to herself. Back when I was dating, I had a girlfriend who expected me to dress a certain way, so I did – she certainly did her part in this age-old gender play, wearing all sorts of feminine clothing to offset my male “look.” However, as soon as we were out of each other’s sight, we reverted to drab, and the interesting clothes were put away...

Are women’s’ clothes “better?” Yes, but consider the source! I used to accompany my girlfriend as she shopped for women’s clothes, and she was quite impressed at how patient (and interested) I was! It was just like being in a candy store...
:battingeyelashes: [/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="2"]With that in mind, what do YOU think about women who turn away from this embarrassment of riches?

I wonder what a woman thinks about what she is expected to wear in the arena of social and emotional competition. Would she rather not be so colorful, or so revealing, or so vulnerable? Just like I wish to be less masculine, in appearance and feeling, perhaps SHE wants to be much less feminine and not draw attention to herself.[/SIZE]

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When in Rome.

I wear mostly blue or black jeans unless I'm dressing for a special event. During the summer I wear cooler skirts (blue jean or twill), with sandals or flip flops. I dress like this because I have an aversion to over dressing for the circumstances. I live in a small town where people do not dress up. When I go to a nice restaurant I enjoy wearing a pretty dress. We just don't go to such places all that often, and I would feel awkward dressing up to go to the grocery store.

I was more fashionable when I lived in a larger city and worked in an office, but everyone else was too. When I go to a black tie fundraising gala (the last time I went was seven years ago), I wear a long gown.

It's relative.

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Originally Posted by Megan_Renee

...And SOCKS! OMG! You've got so many different varieties of socks, I don't know where to start!

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I was having exactly that same thought today at Kohl's. I was looking for "no-show" athletic socks to fit my size 11 (women's) feet. The normal socks of that size are marked that they will fit shoe sizes 6-10, and they are being very optimistic about the 10. Every once in a long while I can find Gold Toe "no-show" socks in a larger size for women, but only in white. Now, it sounds ironic, but I want my no-show socks in lively colors, particularly around the ankle where they do show. The regular size no-shows come in a rainbow of colors. The larger no-shows...white.

So, I have a epiphany. What do GGs who wear my size do? They must go over to the men's department! They make no-show socks for men! Unfortunately, they are available in twice as many colors as large no-shows for women. White and black. :(

While I was in the men's sock department I cast my gaze upon an entire wall of socks. The thing that struck me was that you can get any color you desire as long is it is white, black, gray, or brown Green or blue are possible too, but only in the darkest of shades. I thought "I should take a picture for the forum" but I didn't. Instead I went back over to the women's side where Mimi was picking out some lovely pastel leggings in bright blue and salmon. Yes, I was depressed.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Right. And unless it is a super well constructed bra that fits to a tee, no one can tell me that bras are more comfortable than wearing none at all. Or girdles, control top pantyhose, and any number of constraining items. Exciting for CDers? Absolutely. But comfortable? +? :p

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Reine, you're absolutely correct, but I think that a lot of CDers are fairly realistic about that. I like my bras because they give me a nice feminine look, but enjoy wearing them? I'm not that crazy. It feels very good when it comes off! Most other women's clothes are also more difficult to wear. No matter how wonderful wearing a full skirt feels, you have to keep track of where it is lest you step on your own hem, close it in car doors, etc. You have to make sure that your cute "off the shoulder" top doesn't get too far off the shoulder. And shoes? Heels are obviously less than comfortable, but even shoes like sandals are less comfortable in their female form. Men's shoes are shaped to fit their feet functionally, women's shoes are works of art that you hope that your foot will fit into.

Despite this, women persist in wearing these things. Why? For the same reason that CDers like to wear them, they're fun and even a bit of a challenge!

Now, there are exceptions to this. My women's Levi's fit better and are more comfortable than men's Levis. I find certain women's panties to be more supportive and comfortable than jockey shorts. However, these are the exceptions.

I am sticking with my original answer. Because they "have to" have more variety and selection, in order to "hopfefully ENHANCE" their appearance to/FOR men. More styles, colors, cuts, textures, etc. offers them a greater chance or opportunity of "looking better". A greater CHANCE of being approached especially if she is among other women. Approached simply because of the "packaging". Of course as we all know [???] what she/anyone chooses to wear on the outside might have ZERO to do with what is on the inside - personality, brains etc. The IMPORTANT stuff.

An illustratiom of this might be 10 women who all work together daily to all agree for whatever reason to meet later that night for dinner. They cannot bring anyone with them. It's just a girl's thing. I don't think it would matter where they meet. BUT if 5 girls are married and 5 have no SO...

I believe [JMO of course] most adults over the age of 20 witnessing all 10 women together would be able to accurately predict which women were "availabe" and which were married simply because of how the women dressed.

As I review my previous post, and think more deeply on the true question asked, I have reached an interesting insight. The reason I prefer female clothing is this. Female clothing is designed to accentuate parts of the female body I wish I had been born with. They show off the hourglass figure that I have secretly envied since I was in middleschool. My previous rant was my venting years of frustration at mens clothing because it was the clothes I was forced to wear. There is a wonderfull variety of color and patterns in mens clothing. It has been there all along, but I never noticed it because I just didn't care about it. What was the point of careing about an appearance that was just a shallow disguize to fit in anyway. That is how I really felt. I am only now begining to realize this. There is nothing wrong with men's clothing. There is nothing "better" about womans clothing. I just like one over the other because while one is the symbol of my past, the other is a symbol of my future. For me the future is much more attractive than my past.

sorry for rambleing on again
Xrys

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Originally Posted by Megan_Renee

This is my perception of why Women's clothing is so much better. What do you all think?

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I was chatting to a friend about this the other night, trying to explain exactly why I cross dressed.

I'm not sure I concluded anything, but...

1. Women have all the fun clothes! Corsets, petticoats, things in their hair, earrings, necklaces, bracelets, heels, tights/stockings, makeup, cocktail dresses, ballgowns ... everything as impracticable as possible, but just designed to make you feel great.

2. Just a desire to be pretty, which men's clothes don't really help with. I don't know if I'll ever be described as pretty, but dressing the right way makes me feel like I could be. Just need to work on the face now :)

xxx

Caroline

Women's clothing have a wider material selection, where it can be elegant or sexy. Not to mention they are more open to a wider range of colors.

In relation to the part of the discussion about women's clothes having more color. I think that is more of a choice and it depends on the person. As someone who started dressing later in life, I find the change in my own guy dressing interesting.

I was strictly a blue and earth tone color person. My hair was cut short and conservative and I wore only a wedding ring and a watch. Now that I have progressed with my dressing and have a general comfort level in guy mode, I have my hair long and may or may not wear it in a pony tail. My ears are pierced and along with my watch, I wear rings, a bracelet, and a necklace. My shirts are now more colorful to include bright colors like yellow and orange that I would never touch before.

So there are ways that you can express yourself as a guy. Probably what holds most back is not wanting to have anyone question them so they dress to fit with the general flow of their social group. I know I used to try my best to go unnoticed, but it isn't all it is cracked up to be.

I don't think female clothes are better, they just make me look better.:)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Then would you say that the clothes make you feel more feminine (compared to wearing your guy clothes)?
... to take it further then, when you and others say you 'feel right' does this mean that your appearance as women (even if the outfit is not particularly pretty or sexy), is more in line with who you feel you are internally?

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No, I don't feel feminine. Nor do I feel like a woman internally.

I have no urge to look like a woman, even though I do dress fully when out, usually, but not all the time.

The urge is all about the clothes satisfying the unexplainable trans characteristic.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Then would you say that the clothes make you feel more feminine (compared to wearing your guy clothes)?

... to take it further then, when you and others say you 'feel right' does this mean that your appearance as women (even if the outfit is not particularly pretty or sexy), is more in line with who you feel you are internally?

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Yes, I myself would go along with all of this.

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Originally Posted by DonnaT

No, I don't feel feminine. Nor do I feel like a woman internally.

I have no urge to look like a woman, even though I do dress fully when out, usually, but not all the time.

The urge is all about the clothes satisfying the unexplainable trans characteristic.

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I am curious. If you have no urge to look like a woman, why do you go through pains to look like one? You look very feminine in your avatar. Your hair is beautifully styled, your makeup is impeccable, and your jewelry is lovely. I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's just that I don't understand the difference between what you say and what I see.

There have been CDers who have said they feel they need to appear as women in public because they feel the stigma is too severe against men who present as men wearing feminine clothing. I can understand this, and it makes sense such CDers would present as women in public but would only put on the clothes at home with nothing else: no wigs, forms, makeup, etc. But, this forum is not the mainstream. Why do you present an avatar here that does not look like who you feel you are?

My wife once asked why I need to wear a wig and makeup, and I told her that I didn't need to, and would be perfectly happy wearing a skirt out and about. She said, "not with me you won't!"

There's a difference between an inner urge to crossdress and an urge to look like a woman. I don't have the urge to look like a woman.

My wife does not like for me to be out and about without the wig and makeup, and it was she who gave me my first wig. She does not like me wearing them when at home however.

It's been easier over the years to dress fully enfemme, rather than look like a man in a dress, when out and about. But I have been out in a skirt without the wig, and had no problems.

I do look better with the wig and makeup, and my wife doesn't have to worry so much that I will be recognized, especially online, compared to not wearing the wig and makeup.

Plus, I like the way I look, it's just I don't "need" to present this look in the same manner as I "need" to crossdress.

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Originally Posted by DonnaT

Plus, I like the way I look, it's just I don't "need" to present this look in the same manner as I "need" to crossdress.

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I see. Well, thanks for the explanation! :)

Again, Frédérique, I applaud your insight and candor! I am also one fortunate to have been in more than one relationship with a gal where I was able and comfortable to share this aspect of my life. Before they learned of my interests, they were surprised at my desire to shop and the taste I exhibited when helping select items. It is through my adoration of women and my zeal when observing them (both in person and in media) that I find my pwn personal motivation. I share your feelings in regards to the textures, fabrics and colors; so much so that I long ago have broadened my drab wardrobe. I believe I am much the better person for it~

Clothes have two primary functions: First to protect us from the elements so we neither freeze nor fry from exposure of our hairless skin to sun, rain, wind and weather, and second, to disguise the manifest ways in which our bodies differ from whatever is the currently popular idea of perfection.

There are plenty of items of men's clothing out there that are fabulously stylish. They are also fabulously expensive, and worn by only a small percentage of males in the upper ten percentile of taxable income.

American male fashion is divided along socio-economic lines. Most men work at blue collar jobs or retail clerk type positions, which don't require much more than a pair of jeans and a shirt. A dressy outfit for most men is a pair of khakis, a shirt with actual buttons, and a necktie, but no jacket. For shame, America!

Most American men have no idea about how a piece of good male clothing looks or feels. They'd prefer to sneer at the "Suits" who are the Bad Guys oppressing the common man in his baggy Levis. Instead they should go to the high end rack at Brooks Brothers (or a Polo store) and check out a really good suit, how soft and see how sensual a good English wool fabric is, and how subtle and beautiful the tailoring is. They should check out a B2 shirt and silk tie, or even better a Gieves & Hawke challis wool tie. Beautiful, but costing about $175 unfortunately. American males for the most part think that a pair of overprice Air Jordans is a "fashion statement." And, maybe they should check out how different a pair of good shoes, e.g. Allen Edmonds, is from a pair of Nikes from Vietnam.

Sadly, most males are afraid of ridicule from their peers. I double-dang guarantee you that if one of his chums tells a male that his new shirt/pants/shoes/whatever make him look Gay he'll never wear that item of clothing again.

On the other hand, maybe it's just white homophobic men who act like this, a lot of African-American men dress superbly and don't worry about such nonsense. I think Stephen A. Smith (ESPN NBA analyst) is a horse's patoot, but I admire his suits, shirts and ties!

We are social creatures, not quite herd animals but close, and that makes us extremely susceptible to manipulation by mass media advertising. I'm not much into the idea that women's clothes are desirable just because they're "women's" clothes. There are plenty of looks which are just plain ugly, and those include skirt/dress looks from the vintage era of the 40's/50's and 60's as well as Capri pants and thong sandals from the present day. I can remember what the 17 y.o. girls looked like in their crinoline and flared prom dresses in the 60's, and it wasn't a great scene at all. And, I've seen enough "mutton trying to look like lamb" outfits to make me wince, we've all seen the 55 y.o. 5'9", 235 pound linebacker lookalikes who insist on wearing leather miniskirts and long platinum blonde wigs. That wouldn't be stylish on a genetic woman, let alone on a CD.

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Originally Posted by StarrOfDelite

We are social creatures, not quite herd animals but close, and that makes us extremely susceptible to manipulation by mass media advertising. I'm not much into the idea that women's clothes are desirable just because they're "women's" clothes. There are plenty of looks which are just plain ugly, and those include skirt/dress looks from the vintage era of the 40's/50's and 60's as well as Capri pants and thong sandals from the present day. I can remember what the 17 y.o. girls looked like in their crinoline and flared prom dresses in the 60's, and it wasn't a great scene at all. And, I've seen enough "mutton trying to look like lamb" outfits to make me wince, we've all seen the 55 y.o. 5'9", 235 pound linebacker lookalikes who insist on wearing leather miniskirts and long platinum blonde wigs. That wouldn't be stylish on a genetic woman, let alone on a CD.

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Yes, especially the capri pants that are flared (like bell bottoms) and they look they were sized for a child or else they shrunk in the wash. Even Kim Novak couldn't make them look good.

Starr, I totally agree. The standard of dress for both men and women has changed considerably beginning in the 60s, and few people today know how to dress. I dare say they can't afford it. I include myself in this. The main culprit is the declining purchase power of the dollar. Families in the 50s and 60s could survive on one salary. Now they need two.

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Originally Posted by StarrOfDelite

I'm not much into the idea that women's clothes are desirable just because they're "women's" clothes. There are plenty of looks which are just plain ugly

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Very true. My SO and I were looking at a clothing catalog tonight and there is not one thing that neither she nor I would buy. The clothes were colorful, but woefully out of date. There was an overabundance of gauze, flowers, and frill, in contrast with lime green and fushia pants and skirts that are limiting in terms of what they can be paired with. My SO told me that she has learned to keep her bottom pieces (pants & skirts) neutral and vary her tops, rather than to do the opposite. :) Much easier on the budget that way. Some of the clothes in that catalog (and in many other catalogs) were just plain ugly in their styling, cut, and color choice.

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Originally Posted by StarrOfDelite

And, I've seen enough "mutton trying to look like lamb" outfits to make me wince, we've all seen the 55 y.o. 5'9", 235 pound linebacker lookalikes who insist on wearing leather miniskirts and long platinum blonde wigs. That wouldn't be stylish on a genetic woman, let alone on a CD.

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Another great point. I see older CDers here wearing things that belong on younger, much slimmer girls that I wouldn't wear despite my being tall and a size 8 (I'm in my 50s). But, there is nothing wrong with dressing like this in private for their own enjoyment or for posting pics in the Gallery. Or even if they wear these things to CD support groups or TG friendly nightclubs. I'm sure if they ventured out in the mainstream, they'd dress more age appropriately. :)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Another great point. I see older CDers here wearing things that belong on younger, much slimmer girls that I wouldn't wear despite my being tall and a size 8 (I'm in my 50s). But, there is nothing wrong with dressing like this in private for their own enjoyment or for posting pics in the Gallery. Or even if they wear these things to CD support groups or TG friendly nightclubs. I'm sure if they ventured out in the mainstream, they'd dress more age appropriately. :)

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Reine. I could have been talking about genetic women with my description of the 55 y.o., 5-9, 235 pound linebacker in a leather miniskirt. I have, unfortunately, seen more than my share of real ladies wearing that type of clothing on the out-and-about, too!

I agree with you that so long as the person thus garbed is doing it for fetish reasons, e.g. a GNO at the local GLBT club, it's perfectly acceptable.

Materials. Colors. Fit. Transformation. :)

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Originally Posted by DonnaT

It's been easier over the years to dress fully enfemme, rather than look like a man in a dress, when out and about.

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I agree 100%. The man in a dress look is ridiculous.

Men don't need fancy garb; we're more defined by what we do, rather than how we look. That's well known; after all, when women find out we're crossdressers, even though we may be wearing men's attire at the time, their romantic interest in us usually goes way down.
Next, one reason that women's attire is so varied, is to give the visual clues that they are a different female than before; genetically, males are wired to want to have sex with as many different women as possible, and by appearing different, a woman gives the male the illusion of having sex with someone else. Sure, in reality when thinking normally he knows the difference, but our inner 'beast' just wants to have sex with a different woman each time, and in it's horny state of mind, doesn't discriminate very well. Hence the huge wardrobe women usually have in comparison to what a guy does.
And it's not that men don't want the choice; it's that we never even condsidered it, because it's not necessary to dress different from other men to be attractive to women. What do women find so attractive in men? A man in military uniform. Even when there's a whole room of guys dressed the same way. In contrast, lots of women feel uncomfortable when even one other woman is dressed exactly the same way she is at a social event.
As far as comfort; there are women's clothing that's comfortable. But lots of women want to make their bodies appear different from what they really look like, in order to appeal to a particular male, just more males in general, or even (the way we do) because she wants to feel better about herself. So, they are willing to put up with the discomfort necessary to do that, often instead of working out to lose weight or 'sculpt' their bodies, or instead of having surgery to alter her appearance. Same as using make up to make her eyes appear larger or further apart, or cause more contrast in skin tone. Heels are a particular sore point to me; I used to let any woman I was dating know that I'd be quite happy to have her wear sneakers instead of torturing her feet wearing heels.



Reine wrote:

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Why do you present an avatar here that does not look like who you feel you are?

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Because I don't want to feel old, fat, homely, I want to pretend that I'm cute, pretty, beautiful, and having an avatar that doesn't make me feel that way (especially in a 'feel good' forum like this one) is kind of counterproductive. Even women do the best they can, rather than just appear the way nature made them, to make you feel better about yourselves. You see elderly women all the time with dyed hair, nail polish, make up, who are just going to sit in a nursing home with no one who gives a damn what they look like. But it feels good, so they do it.
And

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And believe it or not, there are also people on this planet who are far more aroused by someone's mind or their accomplishments than the frou-frou of modern fashion. Still, there are some very attractive females walking around campus in my town who are on a student budget wearing jeans and Tshirts. This doesn't seem to prevent college guys from chasing after them

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We can see past the jeans and tee shirts, and know what's underneath. Few men care at all about fashion on their women, we want sexy, and that's defined initially by the shape of her body and we can usually tell what that looks like to some extent no matter what she's wearing. Also, if there's something about her that turns us off, such as for example extreme overweight or underweight, that's noticable too no matter what she's wearing. I wouldn't say we are far more aroused by their mind or accomplishments; very few men put those things as priorities, she still has to be in some way visually appealing before those two things become important at all. Without that, sex isn't going to happen, so we won't approach her anyway. Someone who's borderline attractive will become more so when she has other good attributes going for her; but someone who's repulsive to us isn't going to magically become attractive just because she has the classic 'great personality' or a list of accomplishments, no matter what she does or what she wears.

And a slight adjustment to Beverly128's response: I don't think female clothes are better, they just make me FEEL better.
And one last thing. A few years ago, I started dressing 'up'. Tossed away most of my jeans and khaki's, windbreakers and worn jackets. Bought some suits. Nice dress shirts. Good shoes. An expensive watch. And I noticed the change in how other people looked at me and treated me. It's become normal now; I had forgotten the difference it made. So no, I wouldn't say women's clothes are 'better'.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

What do women find so attractive in men?.

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I wish straight dudes would stop asking this question as if women are some kind of divine gift. Most guys I know should thank whatever God they pray to that some women might find them attractive because they sure don't put in the effort. My experience is that men who take care of themselves don't ask such questions. They know they look good and they know exactly why we think they're attractive. They might be douche bags but at least they're nice to look at.

I could easily ask what's so attractive about women. I've literally had to force myself into intimate relations with them back when I was a pathetic closet queen. Don't get me wrong, I loooooove my girls and any friend of mine will tell you the same, but women can't hold a candle to men when it comes to pure sexiness. Sure there are loads of hot chicks out there and sometimes I meet a woman who is so sexy she even makes me skip a breath but all things being equal, a big, ripped man would win every time over a gorgeous VS model. The last thing I want in my hands is anything soft.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

Reine wrote:

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Why do you present an avatar here that does not look like who you feel you are?

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Because I don't want to feel old, fat, homely, I want to pretend that I'm cute, pretty, beautiful,

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Just to put this in the proper context, Donna had said that she doesn't feel she is a woman internally. I'm assuming she doesn't want to be one either. So I asked her (him?) why she presents as one in her avatar.

If you feel that you are a cute person internally (of if you want to be cute and pretty), then you should reflect this in your avatar.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

A few years ago, I started dressing 'up'. Tossed away most of my jeans and khaki's, windbreakers and worn jackets. Bought some suits. Nice dress shirts. Good shoes. An expensive watch. And I noticed the change in how other people looked at me and treated me.

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We all pigeonhole the people we see based on their initial appearance. The cues are numerous: age, general hygiene & grooming, style of clothes (whether someone presents as a biker, lawyer, or fashion designer), creativity (think art student compared to business major), ethnic cues, even height, weight, and physical attractiveness, degree of stylishness. All of these things form part of first impressions and it makes sense that people in general will be more open to others who present a positive and well groomed appearance than someone who doesn't care how they look. It is human nature, I believe, to respond to some sort of fuzzy social hierarchy.

I'm guessing this is why CDers generally want to present the best possible image of themselves in girl mode. I don't see a lot of CDers walking around dressed in slovenly girl's jeans, with torn and faded girl shirts and threadbare shoes, or a frumpy, shapeless dress. :p So I always wonder why so many CDers seem to sabotage themselves in guy mode when they don't pay equal attention to their male appearance. It almost seems a rebellion against being a guy to me. Or, maybe the CDers who do this don't care much about being guys?

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

What do women find so attractive in men?.

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That is one of the silliest questions I have ever heard, lol! You do know that sexual attraction is not something you choose... it's something you're born with. You know, the whole "being gay isn't a choice" deal and all that?

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

I wish straight dudes would stop asking this question as if women are some kind of divine gift. Most guys I know should thank whatever God they pray to that some women might find them attractive because they sure don't put in the effort. My experience is that men who take care of themselves don't ask such questions. They know they look good and they know exactly why we think they're attractive. They might be douche bags but at least they're nice to look at.

I could easily ask what's so attractive about women. I've literally had to force myself into intimate relations with them back when I was a pathetic closet queen. Don't get me wrong, I loooooove my girls and any friend of mine will tell you the same, but women can't hold a candle to men when it comes to pure sexiness. Sure there are loads of hot chicks out there and sometimes I meet a woman who is so sexy she even makes me skip a breath but all things being equal, a big, ripped man would win every time over a gorgeous VS model. The last thing I want in my hands is anything soft.

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Yup... men who are attractive don't ask that question... they know they are attractive.

I totally know what you mean about forcing intimate relations with women, it was ALWAYS a chore. First guy I dated was super cool and wanted to make sure I had a good first time and OH SO GOOD it was! There's just no comparison. And I'm not just talking sex... I'm talking everything from initially meeting them, dating, making out and of course, the REALLY fun stuff ;) I was never good at meeting women and flirting because I felt no need to accept the need to fit social norms. Meeting and flirting with guys, especially my current boyfriend was soooo easy, fun and full of butterflies!

Women are pretty... I can appreciate the beauty of a pretty woman... but men are just down right hawt!

But umm... back to cloths I guess... we got totally off track! Umm... Just saw Queer Eye for the Straight Guy for the first time last night... there's a perfect example of men's functional cloths vs. cloths that look dang good!

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I'm guessing this is why CDers generally want to present the best possible image of themselves in girl mode. I don't see a lot of CDers walking around dressed in slovenly girl's jeans, with torn and faded girl shirts and threadbare shoes, or a frumpy, shapeless dress. :p So I always wonder why so many CDers seem to sabotage themselves in guy mode when they don't pay equal attention to their male appearance. It almost seems a rebellion against being a guy to me. Or, maybe the CDers who do this don't care much about being guys?

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Exactly one of the things that I realized as I have learned/admitted that I'm not CD, but instead TS. I don't much care about my image as a man. Oh, I have tried being the dapper man who dresses nice and is well groomed. It felt even more foreign than just being a guy in Wranglers and Carhartts, so I quit. I have yet to find any male clothes that I care to take pride in like I do women's clothes. More importantly, I find very little about being a man in general that interests me. I don't fit the "guy" mold within our society.

Anna

Good point Anna, and I can totally understand why a TS would want to invest as little attention as possible to a male presentation. But, we've had threads about why CDers neglect their male appearance in the past, and the general reason given, from self-identified CDers, is that "this is just what guys do". :p

So, could this be a litmus test for determining whether someone is TS or not? Sounds too simple. On the other hand, I can totally see a CDer (who perhaps is in a pink fog), be reluctant to spend any money on a guy appearance especially if his resources are limited. I dunno. I can even see a period where a CDer might be angry over having to repress this part of himself if his family is not accepting, and just refuse to look good in male mode out of principle?

Omg, I can't believe this is still going! Great conversation girls!

I like to try an experiment some times when I am in guy mode. I wear a nice sports coat and bow tie. Then I go to the store and shop a little. I often find that the other shoppers and sales people are nicer to me than when I wear jeans and a hoodie... Of course, that could be because I am in my thirties and lok homeless in a hoodie...

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Good point Anna, and I can totally understand why a TS would want to invest as little attention as possible to a male presentation. But, we've had threads about why CDers neglect their male appearance in the past, and the general reason given, from self-identified CDers, is that "this is just what guys do". :p

So, could this be a litmus test for determining whether someone is TS or not? Sounds too simple.

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Yes, Reine, I think it is too simple. There are plenty of cisgender guys who simply don't care about clothes. I'm TG and I don't care about male clothes. But I think I'm the type that even if I weren't TG, I still wouldn't care about male clothes.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

On the other hand, I can totally see a CDer (who perhaps is in a pink fog), be reluctant to spend any money on a guy appearance especially if his resources are limited. I dunno. I can even see a period where a CDer might be angry over having to repress this part of himself if his family is not accepting, and just refuse to look good in male mode out of principle?

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I think both of these are possibilities. In my case, I think it's possible I'm in something of a "reaction mode" right now. I'm looking after my feminine appearance these days, and I don't want to know anything about any sort of masculine stuff. And I think that to a certain extent it may be a matter of principle with me. I think that might be just a wee bit petty, but who can explain emotions?

Best wishes, Annabelle