When is it okay to deceive your spouse?

Thanks Nadine, your question has stirred up a lot of thoughts and emotions.
I've been with my SO for over 30 years, I CD'ed as a child and was not actively dressing when I met her.
We now share everything, but when CD'ing resurfaced long into our relationship, there is something inside me
that wants, or needs, to keep it to myself. I imagine life would be so much easier if she were to know, and was OK with it, but the risk of losing her and what we have built together is far to big of risk to take and find out she is not.
Thanks again for sharing your opinion.

Very frank, Nadine. However, with a little more maturity you might come to understand that your standards, your moral compass is just that. Yours. Great in an ideal world, but we don't have one, so why make others anguish over their own situation?

Thanks Nadine for the chastisement , But I get all I need from my SO

Seeing that I've been married to the same woman as long as you have been alive I'll take your opinion for what its worth.

My wife found out a few years ago and our relationship has not been the same , nor will it ever be again
It was not the deceit that upset her , it was the crossdressing
She told me that she always suspected but finding out I did was a deal breaker
After 40 years together, to her I am not the same man she married
Please be aware that telling your wife can have real costs.

Telling her may be good for your soul and gains you relief from having to hide your secret
But to what effect on your wife? The guilt you may feel about CDing is now shared
By telling her, you have placed that guilt and the fear of others finding out on her
You have forced her to deal with it ( and not all women handle it as well as your wife)
she now also has to knowingly hide it from friends and family
Remember Nadine , honesty could not only destroy your marriage it could also destroy hers

So Nadine save your rants until after you have experienced the real world a little more

Nadine,
Thanks for your sage advice on this one.
I fully agree we should be honest with our wives.
I tell mine that the computer setup and audio visual equipment all cost me next to nothing.
That is also deceit.

Sometimes face your fears and wreck an otherwise good marriage for honesty is probably holier than thou.

I can see why some lie.
They have a good life but only one little thing keeps them from being thrown out in the street.


Dishonesty.

Sometimes it is necessary.
Keep reading the posts about it here and I tend to agree with Nicole Scott's comments in post #2.
When you gain some more insight into the forum, come back and comment again.

I was deceitful to my spouse and later to my soul mate about my dressing. I'm no longer married and happily unattached. From this point of view, I can see how my dishonesty built walls between us and degraded our relationship from total intimacy to just friendship. I regret it, but the deceit happens so gradually and subtlety that we're in it before we realize what has happened! Now I can be totally honest. I have nothing more to lose.

Nadine,
If I thought my CD'ing harmed our relationship or detracted from how we live our lives together I could agree with your point of view but I'm one of those who came to cross dressing post marriage. The part it plays in my life is limited and yes it would be lovely to be free to dress as and when. However if the act of confession was to lead to the breakdown of a long and stable partnership wouldn't that be the act of a selfish person? Hey I'm free now to dress, I can live how I want to and who cares what unnecessary distress I've brought to others.
My CD'ing does no harm. I don't put it above the things that make up the shared part of our life. There are many SO's who knew their soon to be husbands played golf but never envisaged becoming a "widow" as hubby spends more time with the golf buddies than with her. Relationships are complex, we're all individuals and one size doesn't fit all.

...so what.. who cares... to thine own self be true...:chatterbox::hmph: .....Debra

Nadine. You go girl! I like the way you speak your mind. I agree honesty is the best policy. Cross dressing came to me during my first marriage , wife knew and didn't like. Told my new wife about it the second time we were intimate and she loved the idea of it. I couldn't imagine having to hide and sneak, it must be very stressful. I am lucky, not everyone has the support that I have. I understand why you would feel the need to keep cross dressing secrete, but you know that bridge has to be crossed someday. Ya got to be honest, a relationship is BASED on honesty and trust, isn't it?

There is a huge difference between deceiving someone and not telling them every little facet of your life. If a wife were to ask "Are you a crossdresser?" and you were to say "No" (and in fact you are), that would be deception. But to keep something from them? I don't see that as deception. Everyone has secrets that we don't share, for many many reasons. I had a LOT I couldn't tell my wife (now she's my ex-wife) about when I was in the military (AFSC 20874A) because it was classified - was that "deceiving" her? No! There were simply things I could not discuss - it was a huge part of my life and I absolutely could not discuss it with her. She would ask and I would tell her "I can't talk about it." That's not deception, and neither is keeping other parts of your live private.

Maybe your life is different, but don't go all judgemental on the rest of us because we don't conform to your concepts.

You are all correct in that maybe not telling your spouse is the best choice, I do not know your life. But I know math, and with probability, with chance events, like someone finding out your secret, if you do it enough times, the probability of being discovered grows with each time. Eventually, most likely, not definitely, your secret will no longer be your secret. And I think it is in all of our own personal best interests to be honest with our spouses.

As I see it, if you are not honest with your spouse, most likely they will eventually find out. I think that for all of you, your spouse would most likely prefer for you to be honest with them than for them to find out some other way. I think that all of you that have not told your SO, you think that there is 0% chance they will ever discover your secret. I honestly, and sincerely wish all of you the best of luck with that; I really hope that plan works out for you.

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But I know math, and with probability, with chance events, like someone finding out your secret, if you do it enough times, the probability of being discovered grows with each time.

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The probability of an occurrence does not increase with frequency,if that was the case I would never drive a car again.
Think about flipping a coin, the odds of it coming up heads are the same every time you flip it. You can do things to increase the chance of an occurrence(driving on bald tires or adding weight to one side of the coin),but unless you do the probability remains the same. Every time you dress the risk of someone finding out is the same unless you do something different to increase that risk.

To each their own, but I just don't get how you consider yourself to "have a great marriage " that you "want to protect" that is based on someone who only loves part of you and your obviously not that close with if she can't notice that you're hiding something. If I try to hide anything, my wife eventually busts me!

A hidden, secretive life seems miserable to me. I'd rather tell her, have her hate me then get a divorce rather than stay with a person my entire life who does not love the real me. But luckily, if pitched properly, thoughtfully and without a victim mentality I personally believe your chance of success with telling someone who truly loves you is very high.

These are my opinions formed from my life and experiences. I'm certainly not here to judge anyone's choices, but to be a support if I can. I can't offer any advise on keeping your dressing a secret, but I can offer advise on being brave and telling her, because that's what I did.

Nadine,
here is some math, your first post 15 members welcomed you to this forum, none judged you or formed an opinion, some read your blog, and wished you and you wife well, http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...llo&highlight= , i was one of those folks, on a broader spectrum in sure that your SO knows everything about you, there isnt one little indiscretion you may of held back, embellished slightly to put you in a better light, something.........???
your correct you dont know my life as i have lived it, but you seem to know aspects of it, being found out, top o the list, did i clean everything up, did i leave the web page open, friends find out never here from them again ect....ect.... not a comfy way to go about life i tell yah.
i got this beat, just an adolescent quirk, nope !! just fell of the fog wagon again, not !!! i wont do it again, minutes turn to hours, hours to days, days to months, months to years, and here i am....because i thought i had it beat !! now its out of hand, she wont have my back, lawyers, judges, jobs, kids aaarrrrggggghhhhh.

my dad dies in august, now i think wow, is this how i want her to find out, going about giving thing to charity ,family, a garage sale maybe and then whats in here whhaaaa.....WTF.....absolutely not, have her blame herself for my wanting this, no way. thinking i was a deviant, weirdo, crackpot, nope, so i pulled my panties up got on the web lurked for a day and joined, looked like a good fit, nobody judging anybody.
been comfortable here till now. if i had to do it all over again would i do it all the same...

wouldn't wish that lifestyle on anyone, didn't start living until 32 days ago ,

i just thought you may like to here my opinion.
dont remember my spouse letting you speak for her.

I agree that honesty is important in a relationship,but there are some things that can damage a marriage if they were exposed.
As an example;
You have gone out of town on a business trip and had a one night affair with someone you met in a bar. You know that is no way that your spouse will ever find out. You have been guilt ridden about the affair and the fact you are not being honest with you spouse. You need to tell her.

Meanwhile you spouse is happy and is enjoying married life without the knowledge of your affair. Would you be honest and open and tell her all about it, knowing that it will change both of your lives forever or would you keep that secret to yourself and maintain the life you both enjoy?

Nadine, I have no problem with you stating your opinion ,but be aware that it is just that your opinion. Condemnation based only on your personal experience without other research is of little value to anyone except to yourself.

Hi Joanna - I noticed you were trying to drop some "old school" knowledge on me. I typed a rebuttal then my phone died and now I see it's been removed from your post.

If you choose to live in the miserable, self imposed world of " the way things used to be" that's up to you. But I've met (in person) lots of people from my generation, gen xers, baby boomers and beyond who are living life bravely on their terms. In fact, I end up hanging with people twice my age more often than not because there are waaaay more people from the baby boomer generation that are comfortable in their skin then in my own generation. Using your age, lack of internet, or circumstances as your crutch in life is just that - a crutch. And there is a common misconception by closeted excuse ridden people from older generations who think that those people from my generation are all born with an Ethernet cable up our ass that breeds uber confidence and allows us to be who we want to be. Look around - not to many 20 something's here or anywhere - trust me I look for them.

So while you bestow your many years experience that was formed between your ears, and from your computer chair; I'll rely on my limited years, but rich experiences that I've created for myself. In addition to the tons of experiences from brave, wise girls who happen to also be member of your generation.

Age is just a number, and rules/circumstances are made to be broken and changed. One thing I've learned that is true here and in all facets if life is the majority of people accept things "as they are" and fall in line because it's easy. I never will. I'll live in my fantasy candy land of love and acceptance because that's the life I choose and the one I create for myself through the power of positive thought.

If you hide this from your spouse and they find out it won't end well in most situations. So you're taking a chance because it's lying by omission. The SO has a right to be upset at that point. They'll question what else you are hiding from them. Just a thought.

It all depends what you need to tell her and what you should tell her. Everyone is different multiplied by how different everyone's spouse is. So you are looking at a lot of possibilities. Personally, if you don't want to change your lifestyle there might not be much value in sharing much. If you do feel like you want her to know something, then figure out a positive way to do it so she's not in shock.

Another comment is probably not needed since much on both sides of this sensitive question has already been posted. But, in the spirit of us all being different and our circumstances being different, here's my deal. Being now over age 60 and getting married at age 21, I did not understand "Nancy" nor these feelings in me at that time and I actually thought that living with a woman would reduce these urges, because back then I thought it was a form of sexual expression. It didn't take me long to realize that it is far more than that--but I didn't even hear the term "transgendered" until about 15 years ago. When I first shared a closet with a woman my desire to wear her clothes was overwhelming.

I am in agreement that honesty is the best policy, but I take issue with your comparing crossdressing to having an affair. I took a vow of fidelity, one that I have never broken. I did not take a vow to not crossdress, nor a vow at the age of 21 that I fully understood myself.

Now, I actually have told my wife multiple times that I am a crossdresser, and as recently as a few months ago I told her that I wanted to have her acceptance of more dressing around the house. She said 'no' and would talk no more about it. She knows, because I've told her, that I have a variety of female undies, shoes, skirts, blouses. We have a DADT agreement and she knows where these clothes are but she does not want to see them or see me in them (other than panties that she has accepted is the only underwear I have.

So, if I had a do-over and could have known myself well enough over 40 years ago to put it all on the table then, I would. Her lack of acceptance of me and "sneaking around" to furtively shop or dress when she is not around is the hardest thing in my life. I have told her because I didn't want to deceive her and because I long for her acceptance. I do not think that she would say that she is glad she knows. she'd prefer, she's told me, that this had never come up.

And, just to clarify outside of this issue we get along we'll, I love her and she loves me, she just doesn't love "Nancy," nor even know her name. Nancy

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Originally Posted by joanna marie

The probability of an occurrence does not increase with frequency,if that was the case I would never drive a car again.
Think about flipping a coin, the odds of it coming up heads are the same every time you flip it. You can do things to increase the chance of an occurrence(driving on bald tires or adding weight to one side of the coin),but unless you do the probability remains the same. Every time you dress the risk of someone finding out is the same unless you do something different to increase that risk.

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Only if you are talking about independent events. It is my opinion that having an ongoing deception is a series of dependent events. Thus the probability increases with each event. As in, your spouse may overlook one or two "out of place" occurrences, but it becomes increasingly difficult to overlook a series of occurrences, thus, it is my opinion that these things then become dependent events.

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Originally Posted by nancybali

Another comment is probably not needed since much on both sides of this sensitive question has already been posted. But, in the spirit of us all being different and our circumstances being different, here's my deal. Being now over age 60 and getting married at age 21, I did not understand "Nancy" nor these feelings in me at that time and I actually thought that living with a woman would reduce these urges, because back then I thought it was a form of sexual expression. It didn't take me long to realize that it is far more than that--but I didn't even hear the term "transgendered" until about 15 years ago. When I first shared a closet with a woman my desire to wear her clothes was overwhelming.

I am in agreement that honesty is the best policy, but I take issue with your comparing crossdressing to having an affair. I took a vow of fidelity, one that I have never broken. I did not take a vow to not crossdress, nor a vow at the age of 21 that I fully understood myself.

Now, I actually have told my wife multiple times that I am a crossdresser, and as recently as a few months ago I told her that I wanted to have her acceptance of more dressing around the house. She said 'no' and would talk no more about it. She knows, because I've told her, that I have a variety of female undies, shoes, skirts, blouses. We have a DADT agreement and she knows where these clothes are but she does not want to see them or see me in them (other than panties that she has accepted is the only underwear I have.

So, if I had a do-over and could have known myself well enough over 40 years ago to put it all on the table then, I would. Her lack of acceptance of me and "sneaking around" to furtively shop or dress when she is not around is the hardest thing in my life. I have told her because I didn't want to deceive her and because I long for her acceptance. I do not think that she would say that she is glad she knows. she'd prefer, she's told me, that this had never come up.

And, just to clarify outside of this issue we get along we'll, I love her and she loves me, she just doesn't love "Nancy," nor even know her name. Nancy

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Nancy - I think you have been wonderful to be honest with your spouse. If she makes a choice to not involve herself, that is her choice, but at least you allowed her to make that choice. My comment about having an affair was not in comparing the morality of fidelity to cross dressing, it was in comparing the two acts as both being deceitful. But again I don't see anything as you having done as being deceitful.

Nadine, I will agree with you here. CDing does not get a special exemption from lying, or deceit or dishonesty or concealing or whatever anyone wants to call it. I do not believe there is ever a truly good reason why anyone has a valid reason to not be truthful with a committed partner.

Some people have said that an otherwise good marriage was ruined by the reveal of Cding. The way I see that is that the marriage only worked because of deception and dishonesty. How good of a marriage is that really?? What CDers who are just beginning to accept of themselves should be told I.M.O. is that they should seek out partners who will accept them for who they are.

What is as much of a reason for a marriage break up is not just the CDing but the lying that went with it. YES- the CDing is not an easy aspect for most women to deal with. Add in lying and deceit and it makes it all the tougher. What my wife has told me (I was not upfront in the beginning) is that she felt she was not given the chance to make a fully informed decision. That angered her and hurt her. It hurt her also because she felt betrayed that she bared all and I did not. She felt angry and hurt because I did not give her full trust that she gave me. Those are the hardest emotions for her to deal with. None of which are the actual CDing. The actual CDing is hard for her to comprehend and does make things hard for her at times. The emotions that are the hardest for her to deal with are the ones that came from not telling her upfront. My wife came from a strict religious conservative background. And yet, the CDing is not harder for her than the not telling her upfront. It would have only gotten all the harder if it had gone on longer, or I began to have a secret life without her knowledge, and that it was discovered rather than told.

For those who do not tell and live a secret life, whatever compromises that would be made for your partners, they are easier to deal with than the amount of effort it must take to keep the secret a secret. One of my biggest regrets in life is that I did not tell my wife early on.

This right here! Thank you for relaying your real life example of what I am attempting to discuss. Good for you!

How sad that at a support Forum, some folks are so closed minded. I'm hoping 200 seconds at the following link can help open your minds.

http://www.songlyrics.com/the-monkee...f-grey-lyrics/

Click on "Listen while you read" directly under the PLAY SONG link [in RED letters]

My real life example is why I agree with you. If the lying and deceit hurt someone like my wife more, who came from the background she did, it becomes quite obvious that that is what hits the hardest. I used to think differently. I had the desires and the feelings of being feminine but never acted on them. So why tell her and upset her or maybe even have her end the relationship because of it. I didn't want it to end. And I was in such denial about my own self anyway. I get and understand all the reasons why so many do not tell. I did the same. I figured like I always did, that it was a secret that I would take to my grave. Guess what happened when I finally met the one who truly is my soulmate... my entire soul wanted to be a part of it.

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Originally Posted by JennyLynn

Nadine,
While I respect your opinion, I would hope you respect mine as well. I've been crossdressing for most all my life, but never consistently so. Just on and off. It's never been a major factor in my life and wasn't even thought of as an "issue" when we were dating or even when we got married, because I just wasn't doing it then. It was a non-factor. It comes and goes and now that it's here, I don't have a problem keeping it "my little thing" as it doesn't consume me and it's rare when I do. We are all different and we can't lump all of us into one big box of "crossdressers".

Just my rant
Jenny

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I'm with Jenny and <quite strongly> mikell on this one... but fair play to Nadine for being bold enough to let everyone know her opinion and what her choice would be.
My overwhelming reason to join this forum was to try to make sense of my on and off, purging and persisting patterns that trouble me, scare me and delight me all at once. I don't believe opening up to anyone that knows me now would serve to settle any internal conflict - although I know that I am not likely to really get closure on what I feel, I also know that I have to make a choice on whether or not it's right for me and right for those I love and care about. That has to be a personal choice based on the personalities and individuals involved - it has plenty shades of grey in it for me! And while it's deceit, I'm afraid that is the way us humans are wired.
For those of you who have been able to share - and for whom a positive outcome has been the result - then you are truly fortunate and blessed. I know I have to carry my predilection as something of a private burden (slight whiff of burning martyr...?:heehee:) but in all sincerity I believe it's my responsibility to carry... for now, at least.
But hey, it's been a provocative thread... and my brain's spinning...

Kx

When is it OK to deceive your spouse?

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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

Never.... It is reprehensible in my mind. There is absolutely no acceptable reason for that.

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From another post a day later:

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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

You are all correct in that maybe not telling your spouse is the best choice, I do not know your life.

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Maybe Nadine is coming around.

If you like being a woman, it is better to tell your wife, because one day she will knowl. That's what I did and she accepts me as I am

I would like to add that everyones situation is different. I also did not like to be compared to an adulterer. I have a question for the black and white morality that has been brought up. If I were to be in the military/CIA and did some, lets say horrible things that were to be completely secret would I have to tell my wife? According to the B&W morality I have to tell (COMPLETE honesty). Is this correct? Seems to me there are more than the two colors we are talking about and that complete honesty is something we need to decide for ourselves. I came to this site because I did not know about crossdressing and needed to be educated about it BEFORE I came out (I did after being on this site).

One last thing- as a man, if I am asked by a GG "do these pants make my butt look big" do you really think I am going to say "yes"?

You'll find very few people who don't have accepting spouses who'll say "tell her no matter what!" That should tell anyone all they need to know:
- either all spouses are accepting. (giggle, sorry, tried to keep a straight face)
- people with stories with sad endings don't tend to stick around here

Up to you to decide which is more likely.

Corollary to the above propositions: (choose one)
- most people know you and your spouses marriage better than you do, despite the fact they've never met either of you
- many people are unable to visualize situations that differ from their own.

Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

My real life example is why I agree with you. If the lying and deceit hurt someone like my wife more, who came from the background she did, it becomes quite obvious that that is what hits the hardest. I used to think differently. I had the desires and the feelings of being feminine but never acted on them. So why tell her and upset her or maybe even have her end the relationship because of it. I didn't want it to end. And I was in such denial about my own self anyway. I get and understand all the reasons why so many do not tell. I did the same. I figured like I always did, that it was a secret that I would take to my grave. Guess what happened when I finally met the one who truly is my soulmate... my entire soul wanted to be a part of it.

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i have not had my real life example yet-planed for after the holidays, whats a few more weeks at this point, we see you say (I was not upfront in the beginning) to which end you had a favorable result, not always the case, your comment comes off constructive, not judgmental, sure we dont have to tell you its not an easy task...youve done it
how long was "not up front", length of time surely plays into the difficulty from your post, im dealing with old school stuff, "faggot" was term used a lot in my younger days, people laughed at "faggots", who wanted to be associated with them, push you deep into a closet, "crossdressing" almost PC by those standards, hard choices made years ago, my cross to bear, lest ye not judge me. came for support, someone to have my 6. not point out my faults. could you walk a mile in my heels...

@ wildaboutheels

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NOT telling anyone something they do not need to know is not deception, no matter who they are or what the Relationship.

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Your right, its not really deception its a LIE, and what compounds this is the fact that its SELFISH! so who would want to marry a person who lies and only thinks of themselves?? I'm not trying to bash anyone about the situation they knowingly /willfully put themselves in, But If I can help just one person understand the situation that they are about to put themselves in..before they say I DO!
The one thing that is missing here is the lack of consideration for the other person in this equation, go ask a gg about her thoughts on this and let me know what ya find

Well . . . going to pile in here as I am sure most are aware of my thoughts on this "shame, shame . . . liar, liar pants on fire" tactic to force people to out themselves.

Yes Nadine, you are right, it is not nice to lie but we all do it in some form or another. Anyone who says they don't lie I will call bull%$#t on this that. If you want to come back and tell me that lying to your wife about CDing is different then telling a white lie to someone as nobody gets hurt, here is another saying "you can't get a little bit pregnant" You either lie (to whomever it doesn't matter) or not. So please do not take the moral high ground.

It took me 20+ years to come out to my wife because I quite frankly did not understand it and when I did, I came clean because to not do so would quite frankly have destroyed me and my wife. Bear in mind I did not wake up one day and say "hey I think I will meet a girl, lie to her then 24 years later spring it on her".

The point is, we all make decisions based on personal circumstances which nobody can fathom unless they are that person. Some come clean right away . . . I say good for you and I am glad it worked out. Others take some time. Some never will and nobody has the right to tell them they are wrong or bad. Goodness we take enough flak from the public writ large without turning in one another.

While you are certainly free to state your opinion "I think we should all tell our wives" and nobody would fault you for that, using statements like "reprehensible" is not on and serves no purpose in making your point.

My two cents.

Isha

While I respect your opinion I must disagree. If after being married for a few years you start feeling the need to cross-dress and you do it by yourself keeping it to yourself is OK. Once you start needing to involve your SO or someone else you owe to them to talk about it. But dressing when they or you are away is not harming.

I have been with my SO for 23 years. I shared my secret with her after about five years. I asked her later if I had told her about my desire to dress as a woman at the beginning would she have continued the relationship. Unequivocal no! On the other hand, when she had time to really know who I really was the crossdressing became, for the most,part, a non issue.

The point is, there is no pat answer. We have a wonderful relationship that never would have been,possible had I followed the advice of most on this forum - tell the unvarnished truth right away. One size does not fit all.

The only time its ok to lie is when you come home after clothes shopping! If something cost $150.00 then you say it was $99.99


On the main subject I'm with Nadine, don't lie about it or if you do lie then don't bitch that you wish things were different. Its too bad that many of us back in the day before the internet thought we could control everything and bury these TG dreams we now have. There's so much hiding on this forum......

Kristina,

I checked your profile,
I have a son your age,he does not remember a time without the internet and I'm sure you or your wife don't either. You both are very lucky as you will never know what it was like in the good old days. We girls that are of of a certain age were brought up in a different world than the one in which you came of age. We have spend most of lives in that hidden, secretive life, not knowing that there were others out there like us. Our wives perception of expected gender roles were also formed in that very different world.

I'm glad that the attitudes towards gender roles have changed and that people are more accepting . That change has allowed you and Nadine to be open in your marriage from the start. Don't judge those of us from a different era through the eyes of your world.

I'm glad that you hang out with older people because old people know stuff. Myself included, the older girls you hang with have lived long enough to not care what people think anymore. Just as I don't care what you think.
You have shown me the error of my decision to not tell my wife before marriage ,now if you would just point me to that time machine I'll go back to 1971 and tell my future wife all about my desire to cross dress. Of course that would eliminate my two sons as she has told me that she would never have married me if she had known.
Maybe I should have come out when I started teaching 30 years ago in a small Utah town. I'm sure the school board would have been very understanding. The Ten years I spent as Boy Scout leader would have been much more interesting.
I don’t have a self -imposed world of “the way things used to be” I lived through a world of “That is how it was”!

Contrary to your belief my life has not been miserable .I dressed when I could and enjoyed it without damage to my marriage, career , loss of friends or my children not having to explain me to there friends. I did not put myself first. As I have said, it was the crossdressing that upset my wife not the fact I didn't tell her.

BTW Please ask those brave , wise girls of my generation when they finally came out of the closet.
I’ll bet it was closer to 1985 than 1950.

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Originally Posted by Launa

Its too bad that many of us back in the day before the internet thought we could control everything and bury these TG dreams we now have. There's so much hiding on this forum......

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The danger many of us felt about coming out was often very real. I'll give you a small example. There was one openly gay, effeminate kid in our high school class in 1981. He got murdered for being gay. And you can protest "BUT WE AREN'T GAY!!!!" And you are right - but I'll also point out - "THE NORMAL PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT NOR SEE ANY DIFFERENCE."

I learned at a young age that keeping my mouth closed, and hiding as best I could, was an excellent survival skill.

Why not tell the person who you trusted most in the world? Because most of us had never met anyone who WOULD understand, at least those were our fears.

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I learned at a young age that keeping my mouth closed, and hiding as best I could, was an excellent survival skill.

Why not tell the person who you trusted most in the world? Because most of us had never met anyone who WOULD understand, at least those were our fears.

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well said Paula

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

The danger many of us felt about coming out was often very real. I'll give you a small example. There was one openly gay, effeminate kid in our high school class in 1981. He got murdered for being gay. And you can protest "BUT WE AREN'T GAY!!!!" And you are right - but I'll also point out - "THE NORMAL PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT NOR SEE ANY DIFFERENCE."

I learned at a young age that keeping my mouth closed, and hiding as best I could, was an excellent survival skill.

Why not tell the person who you trusted most in the world? Because most of us had never met anyone who WOULD understand, at least those were our fears.

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Yep you're right and I just said in another post that I did not know 1 gay person in high school. But, there was a transgender MTF that enrolled at my best friend's high school. She had the shit beat out of her every day for a week and then nobody ever heard of her again. I wasn't going to put my hand up in the air and say I might be in the same boat. I thought I was the only freak in the world.

People in the 60's were thrown in jail for being gay. Who knows what they did in the 50's?

@Launa - btw, I'm not trying to rationalize not telling your spouse. I would never argue that the time to do it is before it gets so serious that you are too terrified of risking the loss of someone dear to spill the truth.

Just pointing out that for many of us, we felt stuck between a rock and a hard place, and that NONE of our choices were worth a damn. So right or wrong, we chose the path of survival, and in my view, it's hard to fault a person too much for that choice.

BTW, in the 50's and 60's, electro-convulsive therapy was popular for CDs admitted to mental institutions.

Case specific, I’m going to go into the area, of call it whatever you want, but it’s ok to not out yourself and from your partner. Each person’s relationship, marriage, spouse, SO, is different. Yes I told my wife before we became engaged. Yes I lucked out in that she accepted, and I’ve never regretted telling her since, and I’m glad I took that life changing gamble in coming out the closet to her.

However I had to reach the point, where I accepted, and approved of being TG, and was past the point of trying to cure myself. So when I came out to her, I sold it in the most confident manner, not leaving any doubt in her mind that I am a cross dresser, no if’s and’s or buts, it’s not up for discussion as far as me ever quitting, this is a part of the person you love and who loves you.

If in my ethical dilemma to be so truthful I decided to my tell my wife earlier or tell past women I dated which came very close to marriage, it would have been pointless, I probably would have turned them off to the idea, being that I did not accept it myself, and desperately wanted to stop at all cost. This probably would have resulted in them breaking up with me, and as an unintended consequence my entire extended circle of family, friends, co-workers, and possibly employer finding out. Now that scenario is not as scary as it was going back close to 10 years ago.

In short I guess that’s one area I won’t pass judgment on any longer. I can’t judge another member’s marital or relationship situation to say “you really should tell your wife/SO everything”. I’m not going to be there to help pay for said members potential divorce attorney, alimony, child support, and any other negative consequence that may occur. So I’m not going be suggesting “come out to the closet, and stop being deceitful” to satisfy my own personal ethics and morals.:2c:

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

@Launa - btw, I'm not trying to rationalize not telling your spouse. I would never argue that the time to do it is before it gets so serious that you are too terrified of risking the loss of someone dear to spill the truth.

Just pointing out that for many of us, we felt stuck between a rock and a hard place, and that NONE of our choices were worth a damn. So right or wrong, we chose the path of survival, and in my view, it's hard to fault a person too much for that choice.

BTW, in the 50's and 60's, electro-convulsive therapy was popular for CDs admitted to mental institutions.

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It is being stuck in a hard place and I will say that I feel its ok to keep this a secret if you're in your 70's, been married for a very long time and the wife never knew?

Then keep it a secret as you have gone this far in your life and why cause heartache at this age to your spouse but if your in your early 60's or younger and the TG tendencies are so bad that you need to start fully dressing. Then I do believe its time to talk about what's driving you nuts and figure out what your going to be doing about it.

I know at a young age we kept our mouths shut and that is sometimes a wise choice especially before the internet. But in todays day and age you're better to be open about it so you're not haunted down the road. That's just my opinion

And, if you put ketchup (Catsup) on your hot dogs, that is WRONG also, cause that is not how I DO IT!!

Everyone is free to think and do whatever they would like to. You are free to think I am wrong to suggest telling your spouse everything, and I am free to think that you should tell your spouse everything.

If I tell you that I smoke, and you tell me that you think smoking is wrong, does that make you closed minded? I don't think so, I think that it means you care about me enough to tell me the truth. Do I care about everyone enough to tell them the truth, no but my spouse, yes.

Have your opinions changed my mind, nope. Not a bit. I think that most of us understand that the desire to cross dress is not a choice. We don't have control over that. But honesty is a choice. I choose to be honest with my spouse. It is my OPINION that it is in YOUR best interest to be honest simply because currently for most of you it is your choice right now, but one day it might not be.

Okay, let the flaying continue.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

BTW, in the 50's and 60's, electro-convulsive therapy was popular for CDs admitted to mental institutions.

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Wow! Now there's a notion I've repressed for decades. Back in college in the 70's there was precious little information on what we were going through, but the medical notion was out there that we had a disease and shock therapy was a promising cure.

The shame of having this perversion, the constant stress about wanting to explore it while hoping it would disappear, the self-imposed stigma, the clear understanding that there were two roads: 1) not share the dirty secret, or 2) never get married, because no woman in their right mind would ever enter into a relationship with such a freak.

So, what happened? My future bride found my stash and called me on the carpet. We talked it through, she asked to see me dressed. She found the whole thing repulsive but weighed the good and the bad and decided I was a keeper. She also requested DADT - I can do my thing, but she doesn't want to know about it. And, that's how it's been for over 30 years. I'm a lucky, lucky fella.

Would I impose our solution on you? No way, that would be an act of extreme arrogance I would find reprehensible. Hugs, Michelle

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

The danger many of us felt about coming out was often very real. I'll give you a small example. There was one openly gay, effeminate kid in our high school class in 1981. He got murdered for being gay. And you can protest "BUT WE AREN'T GAY!!!!" And you are right - but I'll also point out - "THE NORMAL PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT NOR SEE ANY DIFFERENCE."

I learned at a young age that keeping my mouth closed, and hiding as best I could, was an excellent survival skill.

Why not tell the person who you trusted most in the world? Because most of us had never met anyone who WOULD understand, at least those were our fears.

---

I agree, it was very different when I was a kid in high school also. I remember a guy who sat next to me for two years in Art class, we would also walk to our next class together. The seats were assigned alphabetically so it was not like we were drawn together. He had very effeminate mannerisms, etc, and he was continually given a difficult time by most of the other boys. To put it simply, his life was a type of hell. It was about two years after high school that a friend and I were leaving a bar when these two "girls" came in the door at the same time. I recognized him right off, and the other girl wasn't, if you get my meaning. As we hit the street my friend started to laugh saying did you get a look at those drag queens. I said nothing, but what I really wanted to do was go back in and talk to him. Over the following days, I regretted not going back in, I wanted to talk and find out what it was like for him as I was the same, but I didn't have the courage to leave the closet. In those days gays, and crossdressers were usually given a severe beating if caught. Seeing how people of different lifestyles were treated was enough to bury anyone different deeply into their closet.

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we see you say (I was not upfront in the beginning) to which end you had a favorable result, not always the case, your comment comes off constructive, not judgmental, sure we dont have to tell you its not an easy task...youve done it

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I would argue that it was a favorable result.... I have hurt my wife and caused a rift in her trust. That is not favorable in my book. I told her because I felt it I did not tell her, she would one day discover it and that would be even more damaging, and more likely to cause the marriage to end. By not telling her, I had to continue to hide my feelings and desires. And now that I have told her, I am likely offering up more compromise then I would have if I had told her at the formation of my relationship with her. I do not see any of this as being favorable.

I so wish life were that cut and dry. Do I want to tell my wife? Absolutely! Have I broached the subject? Absolutely! Would it cause more grief, pain, etc. to her? Absolutely! Is protecting her feelings worth it? Absolutely!

A great exchange, I enjoy reading the back & forth, without too many rocks being hurled! I told my wife after 12 years of marriage, but it took me 52 years for me to accept me, I couldn't expect her to instantly come to the same conclusion. I was a coward in denial, but like others have said, I did not think it was going to be an issue back then. Finding this forum was a turning point for me, able to see others and read their stories, I was enthralled watching some of the the threads as members would write about the plans to tell their SO and what they should say, some would update with heartwarming tales of acceptance and others would update about how awful the reaction was and they would write dispatches as the marriage would be crumbling down around them. Very sobering!! I weighed the pros and cons and took the chance and was indeed so very lucky. While my wife certainly does not encourage my cross-dressing, I stick within mutually agreed boundaries and I am happier than I ever thought I could be!! The path we walk is full of choices that we must make and although our stories are VERY similar, every one of us here is on our own and must decide accordingly. I enjoy being part of this group of understanding people.

Thank you!
Ina

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Is protecting her feelings worth it? Absolutely!

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I preface this with the understanding that every situation is different and life is not so black and white. While I can sympathize w /Nancyjo, I have torched a marriage with lies and deception which included being cd/tg.

what would be the end result here if nacy's wife knew, would it end the marriage? by the sound of it most likely. So why would it end the marriage?
The reality here is that you are not protecting her feelings but ultimately you are only thinking of yourself in how you can preserve your current situation. I know that sounds cruel but you HAVE to put yourself in your wifes position, If she finds out the hard way will she be more hurt that u like to cd or that you couldn't be honest with someone who you are suppost to trust with your life?? If he can lie about that what else is he hiding?? then she will think "this is not the person I married" Again im not telling u to disclose to her or for anyone in a similar situation to either. What I'm trying to do here is perhaps help someone make an informed decision about being honest with yourself and your fiance before taking vows.

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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

Everyone is free to think and do whatever they would like to. You are free to think I am wrong to suggest telling your spouse everything, and I am free to think that you should tell your spouse everything.

If I tell you that I smoke, and you tell me that you think smoking is wrong, does that make you closed minded? I don't think so, I think that it means you care about me enough to tell me the truth. Do I care about everyone enough to tell them the truth, no but my spouse, yes.

Have your opinions changed my mind, nope. Not a bit. I think that most of us understand that the desire to cross dress is not a choice. We don't have control over that. But honesty is a choice. I choose to be honest with my spouse. It is my OPINION that it is in YOUR best interest to be honest simply because currently for most of you it is your choice right now, but one day it might not be.

Okay, let the flaying continue.

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It's flogging, not flaying, but you'll learn that in time as well. The problem is you just don't get how offensive it is to tell people you're Shocked that they aren't as open as you are, and weren't since day 1. Assuming you know how more about someone else's marriage because things worked out for you, or for someone else, is just plain wrong. We all grew up differently, married different women or men, did our best to deal with ourselves despite the fact that just about everyone thought we were deviant, and came to terms with ourselves in spite of the fact that we were taught since we entered school that boys did not wear dresses, did not like pretty things, and anyone who strayed from the boy path was to be shunned. Our wives heard the same things. Most of our wives did not think "Gee, I want to marry a transvestite" (that's what we were all called until about 1990, and sometimes beyond), thus telling them was the deal-breaker for almost everyone. I suppose members who didn't tell can go back today and say "Honey, I was a fraud, our marriage was a fraud, our kids that I helped raise don't really belong to me because I was a fraud, and you deserve better than me because I was a fraud for not telling you" and in your world everything is as it should be since that will get rid of everyone who was a fraud, but that doesn't work for me. I'm not going to judge people who dealt with extremely difficult situations as best as they knew how, and frankly you have no right to either.