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Thanks for speaking up about bi women Paula. I have an ex that I still respect very much that is bi so Im definately aware of them and I certainly didn't intend to exclude them. Just to clarify, when making my point about lesbians I am not talking about them specifically being attracted to other lesbians, Im talking about their attraction to women in general because other women's sexuality won't stop lesbians from potentially being sexually attracted to them.
Lol. It’s a nice way to take the thread off topic, when the thread is about crossdressers’ jealousy or envy over not being able to wear pretty things because they feel they are women too.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasminepp
A person’s bisexuality has nothing to do with it. I did mention in one of my posts that a big difference between GGs and crossdressers is the CDer’s attraction to women, but I wrote this to highlight the different motives for both these groups to look sexy, cute, attractive, or whatever adjective you want to use. Let’s use "appealing". Women generally dress to appeal (i.e. like this, if not exactly this look) to be attractive to men. Women don’t dress like that just for themselves or for each other because generally we’re not mesmerized with each other’s boobs and legs. Crossdressers want to reach this level of attractiveness or appeal because they find it appealing as men and not because they are women. If you look around, the average woman simply doesn’t put all that much effort into her presentation (unless she wants to get a guy). I know this is hard to understand, but go back to my link to the SA and shopper at a Dallas mall and look around to see how all the women around you dress every day. THAT is the average woman, not just the ones that catch your eye.
If people want to think that the average woman (statistically) is also attracted to other women in the same way that men are, then they’re rationalizing. :p
(A bit of a disclaimer here in case some people might think I believe my above explanation applies to all crossdressers: of course not all CDers dress to appeal and of course there are also gender fluid people.)
I wasn’t raised on a dairy farm although I was busy with all my other interests. But, I totally get what you mean by it being too much work to keep up that type of look. I have other priorities! Our situation is like yours in that my SO has a much bigger interest in fashion than I do. Don’t get me wrong, if I’m going to buy a dress for an event (my clothing budget is not large) I want it to suit, but my SO spends a lot more time looking at fashion than I do. I used to get jealous in the beginning of our relationship when I saw all those clothes coming in the door because I knew they were meant for my SO to look attractive to herself. I wanted my SO to prefer finding me appealing in them, if this makes sense. I wanted to appeal to my SO more than the clothes did. Gosh, I even went through a phase of blowing my clothing budget in an effort to be as appealing to my SO as I perceived the crossdressing was and as appealing as he found other women who were wearing certain things. I don't feel that way now because we've been together for years and I know that my SO loves me. But in the beginning, I didn't quite know where I stood because I saw all that focus and excitement go elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvacder
We won't, because we're not crossdressers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvacder
Right. In this thread, we have someone (jasminepp) who wonders if women who are attracted to other women are attracted to the same things as men are. Specifically, they mentioned lesbians - although for cisgender women, there are fewer lesbians than bisexual women, so why only care about how attraction works for the smaller of the two groups? That's all I was pointing out.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
We then go on and have a straight woman (I assume) talk about how women (presumably the predominantly heterosexual cisgender women "GG's" of the forum, although maybe she's talking for all women everywhere for all time, who knows?), are attracted to one another - or rather aren't attracted to one another. Which makes sense that she wouldn't find women attractive in the same way men do - because she doesn't find them attractive at all.
I'm not sure how asking a straight woman about how attraction between women works is any more relevant than would be asking a gay dude about how the attraction of men towards women works, because he isn't attracted to women either!
Actually, asking a gay dude about how attraction towards women works would probably be more relevant, now that I think about it.
There are a number of differences between the way attraction works, in general, between men and women. I don't believe any of these differences are absolute - sexual attraction is complex, and I have no doubt that you can find examples of people for whom things work the opposite of what I'm about to describe. But the biggest difference, in my opinion about the way men and women experience attraction to another person is this - men tend to be much more highly visually oriented than women. Men notice the gender that they are attracted to, who present themselves in a sexy way. Men objectify - they really get turned on by specific attributes - big boobs, hairy chests, butts, etc. (which parts and who they are attached to depends on the sexual orientation of the man in question.)
This is probably MORE true of gay men than straight men. The CLASSIC closing line on a grindr profile for a gay white dude is "no fems, fats, or Asians." There was a gay bar in Dallas, back in the 80's, where they had bars over the front door of the bar, two of which were somewhat widely spaced. If you couldn't squeeze through those bars, you couldn't get into the bar! That is a serious commitment to only allowing men who look a certain way into your bar. (It's also a fire code violation, which is probably why they aren't in business anymore...)
Straight or bi guys notice boobs, legs, whatever they are into. Some have a drive for a certain look, or attribute to the point of really objectifying the woman they are approaching. That is, they care nothing about her, except that they want to sleep with her because she has, for example, great legs.
Women who are attracted to women, really aren't exactly attracted by the same things about another woman that a man might be. For some lesbians, as I mentioned, a highly feminine presentation might actually be a turn-off, because they'd assume they were dealing with a straight girl, and wouldn't want to waste their time. I can't speak for all women, and I'm not trying to say that women aren't attracted to others based on visual cues like looks, presentation, behavior, etc. But I'd say that, on average, such things are much lower priority than they are for men.
I mention this stuff about attraction to visual characteristics because this is one of the things that really changed for me after HRT. So those of us who transition have a perspective on things that a straight, cis woman wouldn't have. (I have a little extra perspective, I think, because I am bisexual - I am attracted to more than one gender.)
I notice nice looking men or women. There are certainly attributes that I think are sexy, and others that I don't care as much for. But those aren't the main things that attract me to a person. I am more interested in their personality, the "vibe" they give off when we meet, chemistry, than in looks. Looks count, but not as much for me. I realize there are women for whom this isn't true, and who wouldn't be caught dead with someone who doesn't look a certain way - but I still assert that for most of us, appearance is lower priority than other factors.
Anyway, if you want to know whether or not gay or bi women's attraction towards other women is the same as that of straight men, the answer is, generally, NO. For the most part, men and women really do work differently. There's exceptions to this, to be sure, but I'm speaking in general terms.
As far as we know, in terms of women who are attracted to other women, we are talking about ~5% of the population of cis women - ~1.5% lesbians, ~3.5% bisexual. (The ratios are different for trans women, but we are a pretty tiny part of the population, so just this once, I'm omitting that from the discussion, because it wouldn't have much impact on the percentages.)
Of course none of this sexual attraction stuff towards women has a thing to do with the gender dysphoria that most of the participants in this thread are apparently experiencing. It's very confusing at first, because with testosterone in your system, EVERYTHING tends to be about sex. So the desire to be a woman, or at least dress like one, gets comingled with attraction towards women with a CD who is sexually attracted towards women. It's difficult to break this stuff apart in your mind when you have these dysphoric feelings, added to legitimate sexual attraction, and then all of it refracted through the weird lens that is a libido fueled by testosterone.
Sorry this is kind of long - but I wanted to better explain the differences between your feelings of sexual attraction towards women, and in particular attributes of women CDs often find highly sexually appealing, and their feelings of gender dysphoria. I hope this gives some background to help tease the two feelings apart.
aaaannnnddd...I don't even know what station this train took. OK kids, this isn't a "why can't my SO be bi like me?" thread. This is a thread about CDs who are in someway jealous or envious because their SO seems to have privilege
Or something like that
So back to the OP?Quote:
Originally Posted by lily1974
Hey Lily,
It probably sounds very corny but I think gratitude for your life and circumstance is what you could focus more on. I'm sure there are many many members here who are in relationships but are in the closet with their dressing or have told their partners and got shut down. You are really really wonderfully lucky to have someone who you have been with for 10 years who clearly loves you very much and is at least somewhat accepting of your dressing. I know with us the desire to grow and expand our femme sides never really ends there is always a next step not matter how great things are or how far we have come and it gets frustrating when we hit a road block but just enjoy your wonderful relationship give give give as much of yourself to the relationship as you can and give as much love as you can and everything will be amazing. On the jealousy side of things I totally relate. I put a post up here about my night out on New Years and just how jealous I felt when I seen all the beautiful ladies dressed up in pretty dresses and heels and I felt so boring and unattractive in my shirt and trousers. I was in a serious relationship before (my girlfriend at the time didn't know about my CD'ing I kept it to myself). My girlfriend had a sophisticated award show to attend for work. One day we met after work and we went dress/gown shopping. Well holy ****, I was so jealous as she went from store to store trying on and picking out these amazing dresses and talking to sales assistants and asked me my opinion on them. After about 5 stores she tried on this really long slinky red gown. As she walked out from the changing room my eyes lit up as she looked so stunning, she knew right away that was the perfect dress. As I lay in bed that night I had this emptiness inside me. I couldn't keep thinking that I would give anything to do that. Again on the night of the awards show I was so thorn. On one side I was really proud to be with such a wonderful beautiful woman who looked so stunning but I had this envious feeling that I would love to be the one wearing that gown.
Thank you. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
I hope this is more on topic. I apologize for the off topic remarks I made. I meant no disrespect to anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by lily1974
I've only really felt this way once. In general, women have it tough in this world, so envy never seemed right to me. I watched the things my mother, and my sister went though - hard things. Getting mistreated by men, discriminated against in the workplace, things of that sort. I felt guilty, really, that I got a pass on that stuff.
But I did resent my first wife for one thing. I don't really even like to admit this. But her pregnancy was really hard for me. I did NOT want her to be pregnant. I did not want to have a child. Or rather, I wanted a child, but I didn't want to FATHER a child. That part of it, the way she got pregnant, from me, really freaked me out. It just felt - wrong. Watching her positively glow during her pregnancy (unlike so many women, my first ex was never healthier or happier than when she was pregnant), made me jealous. I'd never know that feeling. It also made me feel disgusting - I could I freaking do that? It should've been me. I should've been the one to have a baby. But that wasn't going to be in the cards for me, and that was a bitter pill to swallow.
On some level, I also felt trapped by it. I despaired. I was now obligated to not only watch this unnatural seeming thing (from my perspective) happen, but I was trapped - there was no way I was going to try to transition with a young child. I assumed, possibly correctly, that my career would be over, and that I'd be unable to support them.
I started drinking very heavily when she became pregnant with our son. Within 18 months, she asked me to leave - I was a chronic alcoholic by that point. I'd lost my job, and survived on consulting gigs. I passed out drunk every night. I drank in the morning, to steady my delirium tremens. I don't blame her for asking me to leave. I was horrible to be around. I didn't spend the night at the hospital with her on the day our son was born. I was out drinking, instead. I had no hope that my life would ever be worth living.
I know all of that sounds horribly selfish. I was as horrible person when I drank. I felt really violated when she became pregnant. I'd made it VERY clear to her that I didn't want children. Which wasn't exactly right. I just didn't want children with her, the way we'd have had to have them. I didn't really want to be with her. I didn't love her. I feared being alone though. I'd always felt so intensely lonely. And yet, here I was, with her, feeling the same way, and feeling these horrible feelings of wrongness about myself and my body.
I'd hoped the alcohol and drugs would numb the pain I felt. Unfortunately for me, they didn't. They just became their own problem.
I was never jealous of the veritable mountain of clothes, shoes, handbags, and jewelry I bought for my second wife. I enjoyed shopping for these things, even though I got none of them for myself. Not ever. Not even once. I was happy that she was getting to enjoy those things. Sure, I wanted them for myself. But I didn't see any way for me to have them, so I was happy she got to enjoy them anyway. Her collection of designer purses was really good, Louis Vuitton, Kate Spade, so many nice bags.
It wasn't until later, after I'd started transition and we'd separated that I began to resent all of that. I didn't resent that she'd had those things - I wanted her to be happy. I had resigned myself to the idea that I was never going to be happy. What I did come to resent, was the sense that I got from her that what she really missed wasn't so much her spouse, but the stuff she could have because of my income.
Everyone in my life now tells me that she totally used me, and never loved me, just the stuff. Deep down, I really don't believe that. Oh, intellectually, I know it's true. She convinced herself that she loved me, but she what she really loved were the security, comforts, and material possessions. She enjoyed not needing a job. She enjoyed all that stuff a LOT. But I want to believe she really loved me - part of me clings to this and desperately needs to believe that she loved me. But the truth is, she didn't love me. She never loved me. She loved him, and he was a total lie. So that left the stuff, really. He was pleasant to be around, and he bought a LOT of stuff for her. That sufficed for her, although I don't think she was ever truly happy when we were together. The stuff was the only real thing there to love - certainly not me.
Anyway, whatever we had for the 20 years we were together, it didn't survive the truth about who I am. So realistically, that rules out love. And I should resent this, and all of the things she's done over the past three years, and continues to do, even now to retaliate against me.
But I don't feel resentment towards her at all, and I'm certainly not jealous of her. I'm just terribly sad about it. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I would do just about anything for a kind word from her. "Gosh, you have an interesting life. You didn't turn out so bad." I'd die to hear something like that from her. But that isn't going to happen. As stupid as this is, I still care what she thinks about me.
I still love her.
I don't get jealous but I do envy my wife who can wear anything she wants, from jeans and tee shirt to a sexy blck dress.
Why can't I? Goes through my head.
On the flip side of your post, I find my SO is jealous of me when I'm made up, this isn't nice as I like to make her as comfortable as possible when I'm dressed, we are both nearing 50 and she has given birth to my 3 sons, typically it has taken its toll on her body and let's just say she's carrying quite a few extra pounds, I love her to bits and she loves me for who I am so not an issue there, the thing is, when I'm dressed and tweaked in all the right places I have the figure she had in her twenties, I can see an tell by some of her comments that there is a green eyed monster in there.
So I can see your jealousy as a problem for you but just remember it can and does work both ways.
Leanne, your SO should take the time to look deeply into her jealousy and determine what really causes it. Sometimes things are not as they seem.Quote:
Originally Posted by leannejacobs
This discussion is about envy, not jealousy. Envy is when you want something someone else possesses. Jealousy is when you are worried that they will take something you hold dear.
I used to be envious of Mimi because she could wear whatever she wanted and I couldn't.
I am no longer envious because I figured out that I can wear whatever I want.
The prohibition wasn't in her mind, it was in my own.
I was never jealous.
For me, part of the envy is the feminine choices my wife has. Nail polish, heels or flats, skirts or pants, Make up.... Now, I could do this too, but it would cause some minor chaos lol. With women, it is that ability to make those choices I would love to make, and not have anyone think much of it, other than to compliment it.
Women though often envy men to. While we CDers are envying the heels and hair, skirts etc etc, many women envy the ability of men to dress and go. My wife has said that to me on more than one occasion. And walking down the street without harassment. Or having to have a buddy system in place when going out. Having to always be mindful of where you are, especially at night.