Is it really about passing??

@ Judy

well, i am not a crossdresser, but a GG. I look everyday through the pictures in the galary, but never write a comment in there. Because i dont want to crush there dream of passing. But i give will give you some pointers, because it is important for some ppl:

Everytime when someone in this forum cries they got clocked, i check if they have pictures. then i look over them and think, well yeah no wonder. if i take the hrt ppl out of the equation, i can remember out of my head only 3 people in the picture galary, that would pass by me. and interestgly they are at least 65, but look younger then they are.

A lot of you totally ignore, for whom you actually try to pass. for man or for women.

our brain and our eyes look differently. and very often, we dont even know it.
For example: a men spends more time then you think looking at your face especially the eyes, then chest, then hip and then legs
A women spends the same time at the face, but looks at different places on the face, they mostly checking the place under the eyes, they will then go from top to bottom and that happens in milliseconds. a Man mostlikly will check the overall picture, while a women checks details. there are multiple eyetracking studies on that one.

And if i just take the ppl from the picture forum and again HRT ppl are not included in that, Eyebrows, Neck, Hands are hugely important, an other thing is anatomy half of the picture are anatomicly wrong and that is just the start. but it gives you some pointer.

so in the end, for whom do you want to pass: for a women? then you need correct details. for a men? get the overall picture right. for both? then do both.


I hope my post didnt hurt to much and i sincerely apologise if it did!!


there is one more thing, i would like to point out:

passing isnt always the best. If you are being natural and confident, then you will blend right in and i guarantee you, noone will bother with a 2nd thought!

Nashmau stated, "If you are being natural and confident, then you will blend right in and i guarantee you, noone will bother with a 2nd thought!"

I'm not sure this works 100% of the time, maybe just 90%+. It is great advice, though, and something especially new CDs, or those lacking in confidence, should bear in mind.
As for the reaction of males and females, it seems females are more inclinded to accept than males.

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Most of use would like to pass or at least blend in. There is a bit of irony here. So many of us regret not being accepted as CDs or wish the muggles had a better understanding of us, or acknowledge that we exist. The irony is that by passing or blending in, we succeed as CDs but disguise the fact that we are CDs. People look upon a successful CD as just one of the crowd and not as a male in female attire. In a sense succeeding as a CD is great for a CD but in a sense counterproductive in terms of getting the rest of society to recognize us. Ironic indeed!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by St. Eve

I am less inclined to want to pass and more inclined to want to be accepted for who I really am - a biologically male person who experiences both gender realities inside. Would I like to blend, yes. Would I like to be accepted by cis gendered men and women as I am, blending or not, expressing socially unacceptable mixtures of gender - YES.

Peace
Stevie

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Hi Stevie,

I think you have said a lot here, and from my experience you are dead on. Wouldn't we all like to be treated this way? A number of friends who know me both ways treat me as another of the girls, and sometimes those who don't are surprised when they find out that I am a guy. Others have said it -- it comes from within.

Thanks,

Claire

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PattyT

...Most of use would like to pass or at least blend in. There is a bit of irony here. ... The irony is that by passing or blending in, we succeed as CDs but disguise the fact that we are CDs. ...

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Patty, I disagree on this. First, virtually no CD passes as a genetic woman. I know this statement bothers those who think they do, but it's a simple truth. The fact that nothing is said to one's face is not a signal of "passing." Second, BLENDING does not mean we are not seen. It simply means that the spotlight is not on us. ANYONE who looks at us for more than a second sees that we are not a genetic woman. Now, maybe in their minds they are mulling the CD vs Trans possibility but skeletal structure of the face and shoulders veins in the arms and hands are huge signals not to mention the millions of other subtle cues that we have all learned to read over our lifetimes. So, what someone sees IS a positive image of a confident cross dresser. I think the typical reaction of a normal is something like, "Oh hey, that's a dude, that's different." And that's about it. To anyone working in a store, the reaction is usually, "That's a customer. They have money. I get paid to sell stuff to this person."

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

Patty, I disagree on this. First, virtually no CD passes as a genetic woman. I know this statement bothers those who think they do, but it's a simple truth...

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Jennifer, you are right that rare indeed is any CD who consistently passes as a genetic woman. Fortunately, as you point out, there is little cause for any to despair. Abraham Lincoln's observation about an aspect of politics probably applies here, "You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time."

Many of us can blend in because most of the people are far more concerned about their own issues most of the time.

I passed the last time I went out to eat with the girls. I passed the salt, pepper and ketchup more than once!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

Patty, I disagree on this. First, virtually no CD passes as a genetic woman. I know this statement bothers those who think they do, but it's a simple truth. The fact that nothing is said to one's face is not a signal of "passing." Second, BLENDING does not mean we are not seen. It simply means that the spotlight is not on us. ANYONE who looks at us for more than a second sees that we are not a genetic woman. Now, maybe in their minds they are mulling the CD vs Trans possibility but skeletal structure of the face and shoulders veins in the arms and hands are huge signals not to mention the millions of other subtle cues that we have all learned to read over our lifetimes. So, what someone sees IS a positive image of a confident cross dresser. I think the typical reaction of a normal is something like, "Oh hey, that's a dude, that's different." And that's about it. To anyone working in a store, the reaction is usually, "That's a customer. They have money. I get paid to sell stuff to this person."

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Jennifer, I don't think you have this right. It is as meaningless to say no one "passes" as it is to think that there is such a realistic concept of "passing" in the first place. It is really about going unnoticed or blending without reaction, and that does not mean "passing" as a female or either being recognized as a crossdresser and "accepted" without notice.

The reality is that no matter how we look, dress, act, behave - we can be totally unnoticed (some may think that means "passing") if we are in the right environment, setting, lighting, crowd, distance, distractions, neighborhood. Likewise, no matter how great we look and are dressed, we can be picked up immediately as crossdressers if we are in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong observers.

Thus, in reality, some crossdressers definitely do "pass" (or blend and go unnoticed), and feel they "pass", and may in fact "pass" (or successfully blend as a female) most of the time, and maybe even all of the time, when they dress.

Also, "blending-in" certainly can, and often does, mean we are not seen and noticed, or that we are seen and not recognized. Most people simply don't care what other people look like. Most are preoccupied with their own thoughts and interests and do not care or notice others. Maybe that is the real simple truth - most don't care. Most do not have a crossdresser radar turned on. Certainly a close encounter would trigger the tranny alarm, but if everyone always registered an "oh hey - there is a dude in a dress", there would be endless stares, smiles, finger-pointing. That does not happen. Many crossdressers usually do blend, and often, regardless of their physical "pass-ability", they pass.

The entire pass/blend/accept is totally arbitrary and meaningless, except for personal comfort levels of crossdressers and anyone they might be with, like spouses.

Also, the concept that crossdresser "passing" somehow diminishes acceptance because the public is not aware of the number of crossdressers is also at fault. So what if more crossdressers were recognized in public? Do numbers in any way equate to acceptance? Of course not. Education and understanding promote comfort and acceptance, not numbers. If we all crossdressed in public every day, with signs announcing who we are, it still would not change public perception that crossdressing is weird, abnormal or threatening to many. Fortunately, the general public seems to be more accepting and understanding of gay/lesbian/bisexual/transsexual individuals, but understanding and accepting crossdressing is totally different. Even crossdressers do not understand crossdressing.

Stevie,

With regards to the OP, I identify as TG and at 6'7" will never blend (unless I am at a gathering of women's' basketball or volleyball teams). Yes, I would like for acceptance for my dual genders in all aspects of life. I have been cautious around family and work, but have been a little more adventurous on weekends while running errands to stores at al.

On weekends I venture out wearing ladies tops and jeans, light makeup, bra with forms, jewelry, and carry a purse. I continue to explore women's clothing, shoes, jewelry, nail polish, etc. to add to my collection.

I have bumped into former work colleagues and a high school classmate - holding conversations with all (I don't think the 2 guys had a clue, but I suspect the one GG noticed). Several cashiers (yes they were young ladies) have knowingly smiled as I open my purse to make the transaction, while my bracelet dangled on my wrist.

Hopefully these encounters have a positive affect on the people that will gain greater acceptance for all TGs.

This thread seems to have become bogged down. One issue is that there is no really clear distinction between "passing", "blending in," and "being accepted." They can almost be used interchangeably. Every one seems to have his own opinion. Another issue is that people are setting up principles based on their own experience. People who feel they themselves would never pass as a female, based on their own experience, then apply this as a principle for everyone, as a kind of truism. Virtually all of the comments on this topic can only be based soley on personal experience, and therefore can only be an expression of a personal opinion, not a truth written in stone. It is one thing to offer an opinion based on personal experience but quite another to pontificate. There is a lot of pontificating going on here.
The fact is, it is very dfficult, perhaps even virtually impossible, to know what the person next to you is thinking. Unless that person makes an obvious facial expression or says something very clear like, "Why are your wearing women's clothing?" you cannot know what that person is thinking about you or even if he is thinking about you at all. Isn't also possible that CDs who go out often en femme can pick up some female manerisms? This could help play down male aspects.
Recently I had a very interesting experience. I often pass by a middle aged women on her way to the station I have just left. Several times she has made very nice comments about the Lolita fashion I wear. The last time she noticed that I never seem to wear the same outfit twice and strongly suggested that I should take pictures of myself in each outfit. She seemed very sincere. I have similar experiences fairly often, and people seem to behave toward me as if I were a female. Yet I don't know exactly what they are thinking. Once a women said I looked good wearing female clothes. I knew what she was thinking!
The issue gets further muddled in that almost inevitably they address me right off in Japanese. I am rarely asked if I speak Japanese. I am of the average height and build for a Japanese. I have been here a long time and perhaps I've acquired some Japanese manerisms. Am I passing as a Japanese? Is it that people just don't even care and just want to talk? I don't know. There are relatively few foreigners living in Osaka, especially the local areas. They just assume I'm Japanse because all they other people around are. Could this apply to CDs. The general feeling is that we don't exist. People don't go looking out for men in female attire. Unless a CD is dressed in an odd way, isn't it possible that people expect a person in female attire to be just another female and not even bother to sctuitinize? In other words, might they not just see what they expect to see? Perhaps some of us are so wrapped up in the ephemeral concepts pf "passing" and "blending in" that we miss the whole point?
Perhaps the topic of this thread is misleading. Maybe it should be "Is it really about being able to function in society without hassle?" This is what is important to me. I don't care what you call it.
It is Sunday night right now. I went out en femme today and yesterday and although I may have got an odd glance on occasion, I had no problems at all. On Saturday I went to a display of plastic models and was asked to write an opinion. I also participated in a computer game display and was treated like everyone else and given a souvenir when I left. When en femme shop keepers seem to treat me more politely when I'm en femme than in drab.
I don't know what people are thinking about me and I don't care at all anymore. I go out dressed, do whatever I need to do and have no problem. Other people on this forum have similar experiences. Views on how much importance popel place on this is what this thread was meant to be about. Enough pontificating. Let's have more opinions

Patty - I understand and totally agree with your comments. It not be about passing. It is really about living your life the way you want to live your life. People you don't know don't care what you look like, and even if they did you will never know what they think. And should you care? Dress for yourselves, not for others.

I'll put my 2 cents in on this. I pass all the time.

I pass as a crossdressed male attempting to not attract undue attention, behaving with respect toward others and showing confidence.

The goal of "passing" is assessed uniquely by each person you encounter, so there will be no single standard for our success. The person on their cell phone, running late and not feeling well will have a much different impression than the teenage girls busy people watching and they will respond differently than the Sales Associate in the store wanting to up-sell you on something you show interest in.

What I'm going to suggest is we need to establish a definition of passing that keys on;
1) your expectations,
2) how confident you feel about your presentation, and
3) how comfortable you feel regardless of the range of responses you get.

In the final run, it's not about them, it's about us.