Enforcement

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Originally Posted by flatlander_48

The one that I had in mind when I mentioned this happened in a restaurant in downtown Detroit. As I remember, the woman didn't look particularly masculine, ..

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You be the judge. I found the article: http://www.advocate.com/business/201...oking-man-sues

She wasn't arrested after all. She was thrown out of the restaurant.

There is a lawsuit, according to the article, and Michigan does have LGBT protection:
https://www.equalitymi.org/resources...gal-protection

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Originally Posted by GaleWarning

How many GGs have had to use the men's room at some stage or other

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I have but only a few times, when the lines were so long for the ladies rooms, there wouldn't have been enough time during intermission. I peeked in the door first and saw no one in the men's, and so I went. Other women followed me.

I don't think that any man walking in behind us would have felt threatened though. Just as I don't think that the majority of GGs would feel threatened by someone who is transitioning. Of course I don't know everyone who is transitioning, but the people that I do know and the pictures that I do see do not look like the mind's eye image that a lot of people have, when they think of "predators wearing dresses".

Great point, reminds me of a Family Guy episode where Peter punches a pregnant woman who happens to look like a guy!

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Originally Posted by Rachelakld

No idea, but if you have a sticker in your bag that declares it an ALL GENDER bathroom, and you stick it over the normal sign when no one was watching, surely that would make it okay?

Attachment 260362

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Where do we get such stickers? I'm all in.

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Originally Posted by heatherdress

Unfounded fears and treats of vigilantism and bathroom attacks promote more fear. Lack of toilet paper and cleanlines

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Unfortunately, something like 70% of trans people are verbally or physically abused (9%) in public restrooms. I can tell you annecdotally - but I believe the anecdotes because some of them are from people I know personally, that the climate that anti-Trans propaganda creates more harassment and assault. We will probably break last years record number of trans people who are murdered, and we are dealing with a LOT of suicidal trans people locally - I've already been to one such person's funeral this year. :(

I'm not trying to be contrary or alarmist. And I wish I didn't have these types of things to report, because I am really worried that someone else in my area will end up dead.

I believe the hostility created towards us are an intended consequence of these laws.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

You be the judge. I found the article: http://www.advocate.com/business/201...oking-man-sues

She wasn't arrested after all. She was thrown out of the restaurant.
There is a lawsuit, according to the article, and Michigan does have LGBT protection:
https://www.equalitymi.org/resources...gal-protection

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Reine - This is not an example of a transgender bathroom incident. The woman was a GG female. And there is no prohibitive bathroom law in Detroit, or Michigan. In fact, this unfortunate incident happened in spite of a well-publicized gender protection Detroit law. A GG woman was thrown out of the ladies room and the restaurant because she mistakenly looked like a man. Ridiculous and unfortunate. So even in a place which has gender protective laws, there is no guarantee that it will be effective. And a bathroom incident occurred even though there was no prohibitive bathroom law.

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Originally Posted by heatherdress

Reine - This is not an example of a transgender bathroom incident.

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No, in effect it is. Anti-discrimination statutes of this type protect the stated constituency, and by extension, also those who are perceived to be of that constituency. In this case, a genetic woman was perceived to be transgender.

DeeAnn

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Originally Posted by heatherdress

Reine - This is not an example of a transgender bathroom incident.

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Are you familiar with the TG website, Susans.org/Susan's Place? They had an article on her and they think she is TG. They could be wrong. I suppose no one knows for sure. I'm using "she" pronouns because I don't know either. But it doesn't matter whether she is or not, what matters is they threw her out of the restaurant because they thought she was a man using the women's bathrooms.

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Originally Posted by flatlander_48

No, in effect it is. Anti-discrimination statutes of this type protect the stated constituency, and by extension, also those who are perceived to be of that constituency. In this case, a genetic woman was perceived to be transgender.

DeeAnn

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DeeAnn - You miss the point. Most significant is the fact that Detroit has a very strong gender-related anti-discrimination law - and this happened anyway. And Detroit does not have a bathroom restriction law - and this happened anyway.

Seems to represent an answer to bot enforcement and effect of these laws, both protective and descriptive.

Also, it is another example of misinformation. This unfortunate woman is a GG female, not a transgender person. And she was not arrested.

Manipulation of information on both "sides" promotes unnecessary fear and unfortunate ill-will.

Past incidents have nothing to do with the question: how will recent bathroom bills (assignment by birth sex) be enforced?

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Originally Posted by Amy Fakley

Well it's not meant to be enforced ... It's just there so when someone decides to make a stink, that the mall police have a reason to call the real police, and that the real police now have a justifiable reason to take you into custody.

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Had this discussion on numerous other forums of late. Basically what it comes down to, is 1. The fear that some drunken cis male will post himself in the ladies room and harass the young females in there, using the excuse as posing as a transgender person as his right to be there, and 2. the right winger parents don't want to have to talk to their kids about real transgender people that their kids might see. Because when pressed to provide an example of a true transgender person assaulting someone, they can't even come up with one example. Beyond that, it's a simple case of people feeling uncomfortable about having a transgender person in the vicinity of themselves, and we addressed that problem back when we went through the segregation laws in the last century; you can't remove people from a public space just because you don't like the idea of sharing a space with them.

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Originally Posted by NicoleScott

Past incidents have nothing to do with the question: how will recent bathroom bills (assignment by birth sex) be enforced?

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It does and it doesn't.

In the Detroit case, the woman offered documentation that was labeled F. Ultimately, it seems that this is the only real defense a person can have. However, that will not protect you from being challenged. If one is attempting to fly under the radar, it can be a very telling question.

At present, there are 4 states where the gender marker on your birth certificate cannot be changed. With that as a reference, you may not be able to change other personal documents. The net effect is that you're just screwed.

It could be that you have a letter from a medical professional attesting to your transition status, but I don't know if that has any legal standing. Someone could always say that a signature was faked on stolen letterhead.

Anyway, it is a very odd situation if there is no statement of what one would need to prove innocence and what the penalty is if one cannot prove innocence.

DeeAnn

How will these laws work with FtoM? Now your going to have very male looking women using the women's room because that's what they were born as?

In the area I live in they are enforced by the local police. However they are not out watching for us but they become involved when someone wants to file a complaint. Currently if someone complains then you can be charged for being a nuisance. Apparently the investigating officer will make a decision whether or not it is worth laying charges.

If all your doing is going in and doing your business and not causing any problems. Then there is no reason for any nuisance charges. Quite frankly if your causing a nuisance in any restroom or anywhere, you deserve the charges. And a GG could also get the nuisance charge if she's the one causing the nuisance.

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Originally Posted by heatherdress

Most significant is the fact that Detroit has a very strong gender-related anti-discrimination law - and this happened anyway. And Detroit does not have a bathroom restriction law - and this happened anyway.

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She is suing for $25,000 and the case is still open. I just find it exceedingly strange that they would refuse to even look at her ID when she offered to show it to them ... AFTER they had heard her voice, especially as you say, in a large city that has gender anti-discrimination laws. The restaurant, Fishbone's, is a chain with 2 other restaurants so it is a fairly large operation. They would be aware of laws and they'd have policies in place, more so I think than a small Mom&Pop type restaurant in the middle of nowhere. So I wonder if there was another disagreement/dispute than the bathroom issue that is not coming out in the news. The restaurant is not commenting.

So Cortney Bogorad is suing three entities: A male individual (I'm guessing the security guard in question), the security company, and the restaurant. There's a date set next fall for a settlement discussion.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

...and Michigan does have LGBT protection:
https://www.equalitymi.org/resources...gal-protection

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Reine, it can be a bit obtuse but you need to read pages like this pretty carefully. According to this page...

• There is no STATEWIDE protection in Michigan (definitely true)
• Of the cities listed there
  
  • Some have protections based on sexual orientation, but not gender identity/expression
  • Most only cover one or two areas (typically housing and employment)
  • The only city with a public accommodations clause is Flint, but their ordinance does not cover gender identity/expression

So basically, according to that site, there are no cities in Michigan where a non-discrimination ordinance comprehensively covers the rights of transgender or gender non-conforming individuals to use bathrooms in accordance to their gender identity or expression. Like many places, those with female ID markers are likely to be "okay", but Michigan only recently allowed those who have not had GRS to do so (by updating their passports first).

It's not clear that this site is 100% accurate or up to date though, as e.g. Bay City has recently passed a non-discrimination ordinance which appears to cover discrimination in public accommodation. So does Ann Arbor's, Detroit's, East Lansing's, Traverse City's, and I'm sure others. I really wish that there were better comprehensive roundups for this stuff.

Hope she gets the full amount and the security guard fired.

And with these laws being passed, situations like this could come up far more frequently. Anyone who doesn't look like the typical female will be scrutinized even when they they are biologically female.

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Originally Posted by tbryant2k16

If all your doing is going in and doing your business and not causing any problems. Then there is no reason for any nuisance charges. Quite frankly if your causing a nuisance in any restroom or anywhere, you deserve the charges. And a GG could also get the nuisance charge if she's the one causing the nuisance.

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Right but the accuser calling the police complains that a person male or female is in the wrong bathroom. So then you are now guilty and have to prove your innocence and your right to be there. From what I have discussed with long time Trans folk in my area is that the cop has a big bearing on whether or not to help the accuser lay charges. So if you get a cop like the 1 from Texas then you will get charged and apparently beaten.

I don't think it is enforceable because how many people will actually check your birth sex. ''excuse me sir/mam could I see your birth certificate before entering this rest room?'' lol there are so many women out there that look like men, I'm not being mean but there are. It's just not realistic, If it were the restroom police would join forces with the fashion police and say we couldn't pee sitting down or dress either :heehee:

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Originally Posted by Launa

Right but the accuser calling the police complains that a person male or female is in the wrong bathroom. So then you are now guilty and have to prove your innocence and your right to be there. From what I have discussed with long time Trans folk in my area is that the cop has a big bearing on whether or not to help the accuser lay charges. So if you get a cop like the 1 from Texas then you will get charged and apparently beaten.

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Reality - If a person calls the police to complain, and if the police respond to investigate a person in the wrong gender bathroom, and if the police arrive before the bathroom violator leaves the wrong bathroom, there might be some investigation. The legal principal in the US is there has to be some proof that a crime has been committed for a person to be arrested. Accusers do no lay charges with the cop and there is no data to suggest that you then get charged and beaten.

Maybe in some of those places. But the odds of you even being around by time the police arrive on a non-high priority call is likely very remote. But in reality, how often does that actually occur? Extremely rare.

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Originally Posted by heatherdress

Reality - If a person calls the police to complain, and if the police respond to investigate a person in the wrong gender bathroom, and if the police arrive before the bathroom violator leaves the wrong bathroom, there might be some investigation. The legal principal in the US is there has to be some proof that a crime has been committed for a person to be arrested. Accusers do no lay charges with the cop and there is no data to suggest that you then get charged and beaten.

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Reality is I'm saying it can happen and has happened to an acquaintance of mine in one of our big cities. It happened at a large hotel where a GG complained about a TS and asked to see her ID as the GG said she was in the wrong washroom. The Trans girl refused to do it and the GG turned it into a big stink. It was diffused because when everybody came to investigate the transgirl had all her gender markers changed so they told the GG she was making a scene. Now I was being sarcastic when I was talking about getting charged and beaten but reality is the investigating officer does have some clout on whether or not to help diffuse things or impose their will. Imagine if a cop like this one comes to do the investigation. Do you think he will have an influence? Maybe add in a lie or two?

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/texa...h-my-daughter/



Sorry but I'm not always good at attaching links hopefully you can open it.

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Originally Posted by Launa

Reality is I'm saying it can happen

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Launa, anything "can" happen. I could get shot at the grocery store. There was a shooting just down my street a few weeks ago. I could get run over when I cross the street. Someone might break into my house. A drunk driver might plough into my car on the freeway. My plane could crash.

Do most people have these things happen? No. It's unfortunate when they do happen, in fact it's tragic in the event of severe injury or death, but we have Court systems for redress. So the likelihood of TGs getting arrested when they use the bathroom of choice is very small. Think of it. You go pee, you wash your hands, and you're gone long before any police officer can get there.

The person in the article above - is she the only person of questionable gender (to onlookers) in the country to have used a bathroom that people didn't think she should use? No. There likely have been tens of thousands. But how many instances have there been like hers. Twenty five? Fifty? In a country of 7 billion people.

What I find intriguing is the level of panic that some people are spreading, as if these headlines describe the situation and the fate of all TGs all the time, even in the states that are passing these bills (which, BTW, will be proven unconstitutional eventually). The reality is that tens of thousands of TGs do go out without issues even in those states. Do some TGs get killed in obscure motel rooms? Yup. Do other people get killed in obscure motel rooms? Yup, that happens too.

So sure, it's not perfect and the TG bill situation is especially dysfunctional right now (as long as we have political groups funding these wedge issues for the purpose of diverting votes during this election process), but then the situation as a whole is immensely better than it was 30 or 40 years ago when the cross-gender expression was considered a mental illness. And didn't people get arrested for indecency for dressing in public?

So where is everyone's perspective! :p

With Trespassing laws

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Originally Posted by summerbunny

Here is someone who was arrested for standing up and using it in the women's restroom causing a disturbance. Their using trespassing laws against the transsexual.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...troom-use?lite

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Originally Posted by NicoleScott

Past incidents have nothing to do with the question: how will recent bathroom bills (assignment by birth sex) be enforced?

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Once again, enforcement will RARELY be by the police unless you are astoundingly unlucky. It will be by private citizens in the form of harassment or assault. And trying to make it sound like assaults and harassment are rarities for trans people is really dishonest. Unfortunately, a great many of us have encountered such situations. I certainly have, and I know many others who have as well.

Of course, there have been a couple of law enforcement officials who've threatened violence upon trans people they find in the women's room. One of them is in my area.

FTM look convincing just from testosterone shots and top surgery and there have been incidents. It was discussed on the YouTube show The Young Turks. A transman goes into the female restroom because they still have a female birth certificate and women complain that a man is in the restroom are that they are uncomfortable with a transsexuals in the restroom with them.

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Originally Posted by tbryant2k16

How will these laws work with FtoM? Now your going to have very male looking women using the women's room because that's what they were born as?

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

...And trying to make it sound like assaults and harassment are rarities for trans people is really dishonest.

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How can the truth be dishonest? Thousands of us visit restrooms every day without incident. Incidents of harassment are few enough that they are discussed individually in detail.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Unfortunately, a great many of us have encountered such situations. I certainly have, and I know many others who have as well.

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I'm sorry you've had a problem. My social circle, which includes TG folks who have been going out since the '60s, doesn't report any, and we have discussed this issue at length.

Certainly I I'm aware of the possibility and avoid questionable situations, but I'm not going to allow a tiny number of incidents to cause me unfounded fear.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

I'm sorry you've had a problem. My social circle, which includes TG folks who have been going out since the '60s, doesn't report any, and we have discussed this issue at length.

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Same here. I know a lot of TSs, CDers, TGs who go out freely without harassment. Gosh, even one of the TGs who lives in Mississippi who contributes to the TS section regularly says that everything's OK in Mississippi! Will some people get comments by people who disapprove? Sure, that has always been there. About 4-5 years ago a truck full of teenagers drove by and yelled out to my SO "You transsexual freak!". But I would be dishonest if claimed this represents the way we are usually treated. We have gone out countless times, in many states including Southern states, in all sorts of different venues, and we have been treated with respect.

We simply cannot take isolated incidents of bias and hold them up to be the rule, anymore than we can take isolated cases of men doing illegal acts in women's bathrooms and say they are representative of the TS/TG/CD community, like this politically-motivated group claims in this article: http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...omen-children/





... as soon as this awful election year is over with, the anti-LGBT hate rhetoric will die down (provided a moderate Justice will replace Scalia on the Supreme Court). Anti-LGBT bills are merely a convenient tool right now to advance political goals by the conservatives, desperate to win. It's a wedge issue, handsomely funded by the people who have always funded wedge issues (like gay marriage, abortion, birth control under Obamacare, climate change, minimum wage, etc) to make sure that political parties who take care of the 1% interests will remain in power.

A lot of the places where I've gone out have a "family" bathroom that has both symbols and handicap. I try to check them out in advance in drab to be sure.

I think the bill isn't really about enforcement so much as it is meant as a means of pandering to certain groups who will view the bill to not allow as correct. I believe also it is about getting people divided in this country, which is has always been a tactic, but seems to be on the rise as of late. Before there was a bill to allow or not allow, there was.... nothing, and with it basically we heard nothing in the way of people complaining about TG people in public using the restroom of their current presentation. Now we have a gazillion hateful memes floating about, and all kinds of hateful remarks flung around whenever there is a media piece done about it, either for or against. Before, there was basically nothing mentioned. No one really had a problem, and most likely there was probably an expectation that a TG person presenting opposite of their birth sex would use the bathroom they were presenting in. No one was running for the hills.

On two occasions, I have used the women's bathroom (dressed male) because it was urgent and the men's was closed for repair or in use. Both times I ran into a woman, one was fine with it and understood I just needed to use a bathroom. The other was an elderly lady that I guess felt it was more appropriate I mess myself.... but even then, it was just a mean dirty look, even after excusing myself and saying the men's was closed.

In the 1960 you would of been Arrested and charged with a misdemeanor then put on probation.
http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=80102

1845 statute prohibiting cross-dressing. As originally enacted, the New York statute made it a crime to assemble “disguised” in public places

an arrestable offence
the 1845 statute that made it a crime in the state to masquerade
Attention divas, According to Oakland's Code of Ordinances, your style is illegal.

Immoral Dress Code 9.08.080 has been in place since 1879: “It is unlawful for any person in the city to appear in any public place nude or in the attire of a person of the opposite sex, or in any indecent or lewd attire.”
In terms of concentration of same sex couples, Oakland is ranked among the top five major metropolitan areas in the nation. Certainly our city is as socially conscious as it is diverse. Yet shockingly, in 2010, cross-dressing remains an offense “against public peace and decency.”

April Ashley, Teri Toye both lost their careers when they where outed.
It was illegal to Masquerade (cross dress). it was a misdemeanors an arrestable offense.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

How can the truth be dishonest? Thousands of us visit restrooms every day without incident. Incidents of harassment are few enough that they are discussed individually in detail.



I'm sorry you've had a problem. My social circle, which includes TG folks who have been going out since the '60s, doesn't report any, and we have discussed this issue at length.

Certainly I I'm aware of the possibility and avoid questionable situations, but I'm not going to allow a tiny number of incidents to cause me unfounded fear.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

I'm sorry you've had a problem.

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You can find a thread here about what happened to one of my friends. "Pass, or Die"

Unfortunately, I've seen numerous other acts of aggression, violence and harassment against trans people in my area.

My own personal experience with it was a guy who wanted to rape me because I was trans. Yeah, go figure. He knew exactly where to look to find someone like me, too. I'd never imagined predators would target support organizations, but it turns out, some of them do. Who knew? The three hours that ensued were unpleasant, to put it mildly.

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Originally Posted by Eryn

Certainly I I'm aware of the possibility and avoid questionable situations, but I'm not going to allow a tiny number of incidents to cause me unfounded fear.

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You live in California, hon. It's different in many other places. We are well on our way to breaking records for the numbers of us being murdered this year. There's a candidate for sheriff in my area who advocated beating to a pulp any trans woman he found in the women's room while his daughter was in there. Think about that for a minute. He subsequently apologized, but a significant number of local folks seem to agree with him.

A lot of us don't have the luxury of avoiding questionable situations. I'm very happy for you, and for ReineD's SO that you do.

I can tell you that at least in my area, quite a lot of incidents happen to us that are never reported to the police, or to the press.

And no, I don't believe that just because I know lots of people who've had stuff happen to them, that this happens to all of us. I know plenty of people who haven't really experienced anything bad. That's wonderful for them too. We should all have the experience. We don't, and I suggest, under the present circumstances, that people might consider being a bit more cautious while out. No, of course you can't stop living your life. And no, for the most part, peasants with torches don't show up every time one of us takes a leak. Except sometimes, they really do show up.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

There's a candidate for sheriff in my area who advocated beating to a pulp any trans woman he found in the women's room while his daughter was in there. Think about that for a minute. He subsequently apologized, but a significant number of local folks seem to agree with him.

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Totally unacceptable that a candidate for any office would espouse violence. An apology that no one will remember is useless. The fact is that what he said will legitimize the concept for some and those are the ones to watch (if we only knew who). In this case, pre-disposition and legitimacy are a bad intersection.

DeeAnn

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Launa, anything "can" happen. I could get shot at the grocery store. There was a shooting just down my street a few weeks ago. I could get run over when I cross the street. Someone might break into my house. A drunk driver might plough into my car on the freeway. My plane could crash.

Do most people have these things happen? No. It's unfortunate when they do happen, in fact it's tragic in the event of severe injury or death, but we have Court systems for redress. So the likelihood of TGs getting arrested when they use the bathroom of choice is very small. Think of it. You go pee, you wash your hands, and you're gone long before any police officer can get there.

The person in the article above - is she the only person of questionable gender (to onlookers) in the country to have used a bathroom that people didn't think she should use? No. There likely have been tens of thousands. But how many instances have there been like hers. Twenty five? Fifty? In a country of 7 billion people.

What I find intriguing is the level of panic that some people are spreading, as if these headlines describe the situation and the fate of all TGs all the time, even in the states that are passing these bills (which, BTW, will be proven unconstitutional eventually). The reality is that tens of thousands of TGs do go out without issues even in those states. Do some TGs get killed in obscure motel rooms? Yup. Do other people get killed in obscure motel rooms? Yup, that happens too.

So sure, it's not perfect and the TG bill situation is especially dysfunctional right now (as long as we have political groups funding these wedge issues for the purpose of diverting votes during this election process), but then the situation as a whole is immensely better than it was 30 or 40 years ago when the cross-gender expression was considered a mental illness. And didn't people get arrested for indecency for dressing in public?

So where is everyone's perspective! :p

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Yes this is true anything can happen. Years ago I had my house broken into while I slept and a few things were stolen. Will it happen again? Maybe but not likely cause I keep everything lock up pretty tight. A few years back my friends wife was killed by a drunk driver. Back in 1984 my friend that still performs at drag shows was shot at in a parking lot because she was a queen. The same year she performed at the only gay bar and one weekend a large crowd gathered outside the club demanding that the owners had to turn over the Queens to the crowd. The doors to the club were quickly locked and riot police were called in to disperse the mob. 2 weeks later it happened all over again. I can hear everybody say good heavens that was the mid 80's.LOL Will anything like this happen to me this weekend or tomorrow? Probably not.
The difference is all these things can happen, not very likely and only a portion of it is within our control. The washroom law is a problem for some of us but not all and it is within our control. Myself I don't pass at all so its a problem using the womens other girls that can pass easier is not as big of a problem for them. The other problem for me is I want to always stay on the RIGHT side of the law when I'm out. Now if I were in the womens and someone made a scene would I stick around waiting for the cops to show up ? Heck no I wouldn't stay there but thats assuming I was at a gas station, 7-11 or coffee shop etc. If I was at a pub, restaurant bar and it happens I would probably stick around because I'm not necessarily going to pay the tab and run out the door. Regardless even if I left the establishment it would be easy to give a description of me to the cops and I hang around the local drag scene to a certain degree so I could be fairly easily found.
But I probably shouldn't worry too much anyway because I usually use the mens washroom. Last Pride Parade in Edmonton I had a GG follow me into the mens room at a big pub thinking I was going into the womens. She was shocked and I said well now you know what it looks like. I said yeah I use the mens when I can and she said I appreciate that.
Last Christmas I was at a charity event at a large restaurant and I was in the mens room in a stall and this voice said to me from the other side I think your in the wrong washroom. I came out of the stall as fast as I could, looked him in the eye and said well if you think I can perfectly pass as a woman then I will to go use the womens facilities. He could see I was pissed off and immediately left then his friend said hey man your cool and gave me a high fist. Now because there is no law in place some folks will accuse me of starting trouble and maybe there is some law I could get charged with if the cops thought I was playing silly bugger. You just can't win LOL

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Originally Posted by Launa

Back in 1984 my friend that still performs at drag shows was shot at in a parking lot because she was a queen. The same year she performed at the only gay bar and one weekend a large crowd gathered outside the club demanding that the owners had to turn over the Queens to the crowd. The doors to the club were quickly locked and riot police were called in to disperse the mob. 2 weeks later it happened all over again. I can hear everybody say good heavens that was the mid 80's.

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This is a reminder that it was horrible during the 1980s everywhere, in Canada and the US. It has improved tremendously since then, even in the US. The issue now is the possibility of being fined for using a bathroom (in a few states). NOT having crowds demand the release all the DQs for lynching purposes!

True we also have the Religious Freedom Bill in a couple of states and although the penalties would be harsh for the perpetrators if LGBTs were harmed just for walking into a business, LGBTs can still suffer the inconvenience and indignity of being refused service, by those few extremist businesses stupid enough to refuse business. This is clearly unconstitutional and these bills cannot be reversed soon enough.

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Originally Posted by Launa

Myself I don't pass at all so its a problem using the womens ...
But I probably shouldn't worry too much anyway because I usually use the mens washroom. Last Pride Parade in Edmonton I had a GG follow me into the mens room at a big pub thinking I was going into the womens. She was shocked and I said well now you know what it looks like. I said yeah I use the mens when I can and she said I appreciate that.

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Then I commend you for not using the women's rooms. I can understand the reluctance to have men who look like men using the ladies, even that GG in Alberta appreciated it. Also, why would a male-identified person want to use a facility for female-identified people, if there are alternatives.

I feel comfortable about it if it's someone I know obviously (my SO has used women's bathrooms when there was no other choice), but if I saw a random male dressed in the bathroom who didn't have the tell-tale signs of transition, I admit it would cross my mind to wonder why he was there, simply because I never see people who are visibly CDers in women's bathrooms. I'd certainly give him-her the benefit of doubt though, but I'd be aware of the situation just in case. And if I've run across a transitioner, I wouldn't know it because I'm not in the habit of closely examining every other person in the bathroom.

These laws are harmful to people who are or have transitioned, but I wonder how many MtF transitioners downright look like men, after electrolysis, HRT, FFS (for some), etc. Judging by the pictures in our TS section and the people I do know who have transitioned, there's a lot of effort and expense poured into transitioning and I cannot imagine there being issues the majority of the time especially in non-anti-LGBT-bill states, and even in those states a TS who lives in Mississippi said that she has no issues.

A few people in this forum have had severe issues (Marcelle was beaten up last year in Ontario I believe), but the majority of posts from our members recount stories about others more than having experienced negative consequences personally.

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Originally Posted by Launa

Last Christmas I was at a charity event at a large restaurant and I was in the mens room in a stall and this voice said to me from the other side I think your in the wrong washroom. I came out of the stall as fast as I could, looked him in the eye and said well if you think I can perfectly pass as a woman then I will to go use the womens facilities. He could see I was pissed off and immediately left then his friend said hey man your cool and gave me a high fist.

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And that's the other thing. You owned it and the guys left you alone. Good for you! :)

Still, do you mostly go to venues with no single-user facilities? My SO goes out a lot in the daytime for some shopping or doing work at coffee shops with lunch somewhere, so it's not difficult to find single-user bathrooms. My SO is not TS and has not taken steps to alter her body.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

A few people in this forum have had severe issues (Marcelle was beaten up last year in Ontario I believe), but the majority of posts from our members recount stories about others more than having experienced negative consequences personally.

Still, do you mostly go to venues with no single-user facilities?

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Do I still go to venues with no singular - user facilities? If its a coffee shop or something like it then yes we have singular facilities here such as Starbucks Coffee but most of the time at the big pubs like Original Joe's in Canada which is similar to say like a Red Onion in the USA does not have a facility you can go into by yourself. And even if there was a family washroom there, forget it as my last time trying to use a family washroom was a disaster. LOL
Not to digress too much but maybe you folks could appreciate this story here. Last year I went to San Francisco on a business/holiday trip, I just got into the city and got dressed in my hotel room and headed out to the big mall south of San Fran to do some shopping. Everything was great and it was time to use the washroom so as I was looking around for one and I saw the main information desk and went up to it only to see that a mall cop was in attendance. So I told her "the cop" I was from Canada and was not sure of the current laws of the land and basically " what should I do?" She said just go down by the food court and use the family washroom. I said ok and went down there to the very busy washrooms. I saw the family room was vacant so I said ok use it and I opened the door fast only to find a 3 year old kid sitting on the potty and a mother changing a diaper. I gasped and said oh no with big wide eyes! Then the woman said I'm sorry I forgot to lock the door. Then I said I'm sorry in my male voice and closed the door. What a shit show I said and started laughing and said screw this. I went straight into the mens room and have never tried a family room again. LOL

since then I don't know what to do as I refuse to use a family room. I feel they are for elderly, physically challenged people or families. I'm not special needs and will not take up that space. I never want to be part of the whiny Trans population that can be out there. Its one of the reasons we are hated so much as a group.

As far as the folks that never have issues anywhere at all and the world is all Pollyanna! I can say is that is great cause it means you must pass very well For me if I hear one snicker in a crowd I look in that direction for the snickering ******* and not to be confrontational at all but I'm not going to back down either.

Anyone interested in crowd funding.my latest idea...the genitalia scanner for washroom access!

It's guaranteed not to expose you to much more radiation than an ill informed Chernobyl first responder! ☺

OK, they're all dead, whatever, It's better than letting a TS female with lower T leveles than most GGs use the ladies room right!

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Originally Posted by Robin414

It's better than letting a TS female with lower T leveles than most GGs use the ladies room right!

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T levels can be all over the place. Mine are in the normal range for a post-menopausal female.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Launa

since then I don't know what to do as I refuse to use a family room. I feel they are for elderly, physically challenged people or families. I'm not special needs and will not take up that space.

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If you're in a state that would fine you under the current anti-bathroom bills, it would be best to use those rooms. Likely the next person ahead of you will have locked the door. Also, the "family" rooms need to stop being just for "family" and instead be designated for everyone.

Young people are generally more open-minded than the generation before them, and I love what a lot of universities are doing. Some are designating ALL bathrooms open to everyone. One university had them labelled "With stalls", "With stalls and urinals", and "single-user".

I have a story for you. My SO and I went out to dinner tonight at a national chain, popular family sandwich/salad place. The father at the table next to us was visibly transgender (I'm using this term because I don't know how the dad identifies) although to me the dad looked like the dad was gender-bending. I'm reluctant to use "he" or "she" again because I don't know how this person identifies. The dad had longish curly white hair that could be construed as a short femme afro, or a longish male haircut on someone who has curly hair. The dad was wearing no makeup, earrings, a gold chain, rings and a bracelet, and a stretch (tight) purple long-sleeved tee with a scoop neckline, that clearly showed chest development (the dad was a bit overweight) with no bra. The outlines of the bra would have shown through the top. The dad was also wearing black capris fairly tight around the knees that went to just below the knee, with a pair of sneakers that could be men's or women's sneakers. The eyeglasses were the type that both men and women wear.

The dad had a kindly face and was enjoying dinner with wife and kids. If the dad and I had been in the bathroom together, I would have been fine with it, but this is because I'm part of this community plus I saw that the dad was with wife and kids. The presentation was decidedly not the way my SO dresses with makeup, forms, etc. This was visibly a slightly overweight male with gynecomastia wearing women's clothing and lots of jewelry which, combined with the longish hair added to the gender-bending effect. I observed people walking by and they all had a double-take, not because they necessarily thought the dad was a horrible or threatening person, but because we don't see a lot of gender-benders in our neck of the woods. I don't think that any GG in the bathroom would have thought "eek, rapist" - the dad was just so kindly looking, but I do see how (some? many? most?) GGs in the world we live in now would feel odd about having a visible male in a space that has traditionally been reserved for females. I think for most people it's not about quickly calculating what this person's gender ID might be based on their presentation and then deciding whether they do or do not belong there, but more about the gut reaction, "this is the ladies room", when it is obvious the other person there is a genetic male. No one can tell this person's internal gender identity.

So I think that if we can just dispense with the notion of "male" and "female" bathrooms and allow everyone to use all of them, plus have single-user bathrooms for the minority of people who object morally to sharing bathrooms, things would be a lot easier. Because although deciding that MtF TGs should use the women's bathrooms is all fine and well for people who visibly present as women, how does this affect people like the dad I saw at dinner tonight, whom I perceived to be a gender-bending male.

I think we should begin the long, slow road to having people in our culture STOP thinking of bathrooms as designated gender spaces. But, this is not going to happen overnight.