Printable View
Why do people deceive or so call lie?
How about when we try to communicate and our wife's go into freak-out mode!
They think that cross-dressing is :censored: , OH but if a girl wants to stop dressing fem then it's to bad she's the boss.
What is really so bad about cross-dressing, my wife stopped dressing fem 15 years ago and to bad if I don't like it.
But if I want to stop dress fem for fun once in a while , I'm all messed up?
Hi Magnetar,
I just want to say I think you are very kind, and your ability to dispassionately articulate what you see, even when hurting, is astonishing. I remember your words often.
It might help to add a twist on the 'idealized woman' target that many of us have, and that is, I think, that the emotional logic is that by being it we don't have to wish for it. If we are really honest, we also realize it is idealized, and that we are only approximating, anyway. And more to the point, that we are trying to have the sexual pursuit and conquest challenge resolved by being the pursued.
This is the kind of deep emotional stuff that adults are supposed to temper with real world relationship demands, and I have heard your dismay over the lying and absent emotions. I may be out on a limb here, but you may be contributing inadvertently by allowing yourself to be a little codependent, which is a trap we fall into without even noticing. Permitting him to go off into fantasy without claiming your place is feeding a misdirected effort.
A path to resetting the relationship might be to say- "We are making this real- and getting this into a space where we are all being blessed by the exploration you are making, and the discovery of how to approximate being a super sexy woman. But sexiness belongs to the two of us, it is a relationship status, and I don't like to be compared with an idealized version that isn't real. It is like magazine covers- they torment women."
"Most importantly, we are married, and need to focus on each other. Certainly if you want to be desired and sexy, so do I, so lets trade off on that."
My wife and I went to a really good sex therapist who changed our whole view of sex, and with it, how to go about relationship better. (PM me if you want to talk in more detail.)
I made a post to offer an alternative view and did not say anyone else's view was incorrect - that is why there is a thread about hate.
Yes, dressing is about physical objects and love is an emotion. But lying can cover both kinds and that was my point. No one remains unchanged over 27 years of marriage. My wife also has put on weight, but only about 15 lbs. She did get into habit of no makeup and dressing less feminine as others have mentioned. Is this therefore the same person I married - no, but no one does not change. So having a partner do things differently than when dating should be expected and that is where compromises must be done from both sides.
Did I present only the male part for the first 2 years- yes. Did she fail to say she was going to stop working 2 jobs (like I was also) and just stay home for 25 years? - Yes. Did she say she was going to stop using makeup and wearing just pants - No. I will not call that lying - but some might - it is a change of circumstances that was not foreseen and must be expected. Wanting to continue to dress was not foreseen 27 years ago, so it was not an intentional misrepresentation, which would be a lie.
I bring out other viewpoints to further discussion, not to disrespect other's views.
Hugs, Ellen
I have read and thought about every post on this thread and find myself agreeing with the GG's who have commented and, also, agreeing with and understanding the comments made by my sisters. My demographic would be the "older" one. For me, growing up, this desire of mine was a more closely held secret than Hillary's emails. I didn't (probably still don't, fully) understand it myself and based on passing comments of others, knew without a shadow of a doubt that nobody else would, either. Furthermore, I was certain that divulging this secret about myself to anyone would be tantamount to ostracizing myself from society. I believed to my inner core that anyone who knew this about me would have nothing to do with me.
As a result I never told any girlfriends or my eventual wife. The results have been as I expected as my wife (we are still sharing a house) had all of the feared and expected responses. We are still married, legally, but are really nothing more than roommates who tolerate each other. There are children and mortgages, etc. etc, involved. My dressing is very random. I am not satisfied. She is not satisfied. But, would I do it differently? Probably not as I would have been alone a lot longer. One might argue: So what? You are alone, now. And, that would be true, but I do have kids that I love dearly and there were times when we were happy for awhile. I wish I could have a wife who accepts and loves me for all of the good that I bring to her despite my desire to express myself as a woman often. To those who have that...good for you.
Cheryl, this:
"But, would I do it differently? Probably not as I would have been alone a lot longer."
is wrong. You are assuming that it is the telling and not the hiding that is the problem. And the women here overwhelmingly state that it is the hiding that has caused the friction. Some women here state that they "might have" chosen differently had they known, that also means they might NOT have chosen differently. Those of us that told their wives after marriage put our wives between a rock and a hard place. No choice. And even then, the vast majority of wives accommodate us. Telling does not result in estrangement, hiding does.
Had your current partner not accepted you, your next one would have...
I don't think a comparison to someone "changing" by not caring for themselves or their appearance is the same as concealing a core part of ones identity. Gaining weight for example.... is a very predictable thing that happens as people get older. It is not even that they stop trying, but the effort they once gave to keep their weight down now is no longer effective. In a lot of cases, it is because they are only eating or doing what they have always done, but now an additional 50 or whatever lbs. is added to their weight.
There are a lot of people who when they get older, or because they have been in a relationship for many years do stop trying as hard to care for themselves and their appearance. I think that is sad, because it probably means the reason why they did try harder before was not for themselves but to attract others. Granted, that will always be a reason, but I think people should always want to try to look good and feel good for themselves 1st. We do have to remember too, that as we get older, we are not going to be as physically or sexually attractive in our later years as we did when we were say in our 20's. We can however look good for our age, but that will still not compare to what we did or could have been say 30 or more years ago. We have to accept that for ourselves and for our partners too.
People evolve, and I guess you can say that it is change. But that change is an evolution, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. The difference is when it comes to gender issues/variance, is when someone conceals that part of themselves, then later decides to be open about it. It was always there, but hidden. It was a lie, IMO, a flat out lie. I am guilty of this as well. We gave a false impression of who we are to our partners. In a sense, for many of us, we tricked them into thinking we are someone we at least THINK they are likely to be more attracted to, physically as well as our internal core identity.
In my case, I knew what my feelings and desires were. Initially, my intention was to not act on it as I had never really done, and not to tell about it since it was always going to be a hidden desire but no need to discuss since it was not going to be acted upon. OOPS, I was wrong really doesn't cut it here, since it was something I knew existed within myself. (I tried that with my wife early on, didn't fly well with her)
There will likely still be an evolution to our gender variance, perhaps a progression of it, but at least they would know of its existence, and they would never be lied to about it. They may or may not be able to follow us through our evolution just as we may or may not be able to follow them through their evolution, but at least we would have never lied about who we really are.
Alright, Three pages of comments ranging from people upset, agreeing or just stating their own views and this was just some pet peeve thought i had one night when i was cleaning my room. And with no real knowledge of how to respond directly to people's comments or posts in this topic, ill just have to be as general as i can and hope i covered all the bases.
First off, when i described "giving the benifit of the doubt to the older generation, the only real thing i was trying to imply was that, using my dad whos in his mid fifties and certainly not a cd'er... to my knowledge anyways, theres a horrible image that can go away, thank you brain, he's the middle child of five boys. Grew up in a time where this type of world wide connection to so many vastly different and yet still relatable people exist in a form you can talk to didn't exist. I've read threads where even the older of us said that they felt alone. That crossdressing wasn't something talked about, and if it was on tv or in movies, it was all super drawn out for comedic value and not just something people did, and if you did do it, heaven forbid, you're instantly labelled as gay and after that? Bad stuff happened. He grew up in a time where there were things you just didnt talk about openly, especially with your wife because even to this day, wives generally make out significantly better in a divorce, as i believe was actually stated early on in this thread.
Also, my implications were directed soley on crossdressers. Not those who are secretly attracted to men when dressed, or people who want to transition or even those on here who are transgendered and are just trying to figure out what they are doing, who they are, etc. The only judgement i throw out is in direct purpose of wondering WHY men just blatently lie to their wives then find excuses of why its a good thing. Yes, i get it. Telling her can end badly. And if you are one of those people who started dressing into the marriage, this isn't even really about you. But if you are one of those people, please, dont lie to your wife. I get things could get bad. It's a loose loose situation. But what happens when she finds out? And she will. Sooner or later. I've read a lot of stories lately of us who left a skirt on the bed "on accident" only for the wife to find out and drive her into some sort of spiral of doubt and betrayal. Like who are you to do that to the woman you claim to love? Nevermind the fact that some people have to hide the urge to do it when the wife leaves town.
Yeah yeah, in a perfect world, we could wear what we want, be any size we want, things would match, we wouldnt sag, wives would have an instant translate program so we could avoid fights and confusing situations, that we could dress when we had the urge and our day could continue instead of sitting in a relationship, of our own design, complaining that our lives are hard because we cant dress when we want to as we have some DADT relationship... if you knew that you dressed before the marriage, or before you even met the wife(or girlfriend) and was just open with her, yes, true, you might not be married. But maybe if you were open and honest and waited for someone who isn't disgusted, or horrified or even pissed off that you lied to her for how long into a marriage, or even into having kids which takes up like twenty solid years of time and every holiday and some weekends afterwards or potential dressing time, maybe she would have the husband that she wanted, you would have someone who can accept you and you could actually enjoy dressing.
I simply cannot stand having people complain about their lives, how challenging it is, how much it sucks when you could have just been honest from the go.
Also, would I settle or comprimise? No. I wouldn't. However, im not about to enter a relationship with someone, lie about who i am or what i do out of shame or fear, and expect my life to be great. Id rather be single and not be responsible for jading and hurting a woman who i claimed to love but couldnt even be honest with than hoping my lies go un-noticed. I'm good for that. Maybe it's just me being part of a generation that doesn't hate themselves for being who i am.
Either way, you people do you, and dont worry about the little things. Unless the strap breaks. D:
One reason for not telling the girl friend is because some people think being a CDer is a sick or bad thing.
If you tell her and now she thinks your a "weirdo" like I've herd quite a few say about Caitlin Jenner.
You think to yourself, if I tell her and she leaves me, she could start telling people and it could get out to the wrong people.
This may have been brought up already (I honestly didn't read the whole thread) but I think it comes down to how we managed to attract our SO in the FIRST place?
A LOT of water has to flow to carve out the grand (CD\TG coming out) canyon...IMHO!
I'm an old ass, late bloomer BTW 😉
My Ex wife outed me to everyone at work and my sis. We divorced on issues that complex like she was stealing money from me and siphoning money from my corporation and having sex with men yet we were in an open relationship. But her running around on my money, trips out of town with another men. Just could not take it anymore... Well anyways she outed me. I tell any women that I am with. Most tolerated it but not all the time. My current GF puts up with it and we do go out as two gals pretty often. So, I think communication is important in any relationship. But as I said you can be outed and it can get out of control.
Sometimes it's the wife that doesn't want to communicate. I don't talk about CD'ing with my wife out of respect to her. She would rather not think about it.
My situation is similar to Shayna's. I would love to share my crossdressing with my wife but she does not want to hear about it.
I would love to find a survey about when CDers told their partners based on age. I'm guessing that more people who are under 30-35 now and who already crossdress regularly, have told prospective partners compared to people who were well into their adulthood before the onset of the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imeni
I totally agree with you, anyone who is starting their adult lives with a partner NOW and who recognizes the CDing as more than just a private sexual kink absolutely has no reason to not tell a prospective partner.
But, what of people who don't crossdress full on regularly and who don't realize they are CDers until their urges become stronger in their 30s or 40s after they've been married 10-15 years? What if it's someone who used items of women's clothing for sexual gratification while single and had the need to do this disappear once they began having regular sex with a woman? What are they to tell a prospective partner ... that they have in the past masturbated while wearing panties? I think a lot of members here, in their younger days, separated what they thought was just a harmless sexual kink (that would disappear once in a committed sexual relationship) from what was to become later a need to crossdress fully and on a regular basis.
Okay, let me have it. I fully disagree with the OP.
-I don't know of many fully disclosed relationships where nothing is kept secret or not mentioned.
-The I need to be "a man" and tell my wife how it is is very naive. If that was the case then every wife would just be fine with this since her hubby told to?? Tracii just FYI the OP suggested the same thing you called ClosetED out on.
-OP admits to having no experience doing this even to a girlfriend but instead feels her out and drops her when there is a indication she might not be into it.
-Most here didn't get into this later in life so everyone who didn't disclose before the vows is a coward and not "A man"
-Lastly, I think it is best to avoid believing that you have a better understanding of another person situation than they do.
Yeah, and I can't stand having people pass judgment on others without even attempting to understand what it's like to walk in their shoes. Just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean a point of view is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imeni
You're correct that you should tell before a relationship gets serious, and I applaud you for your conviction to never wind up in that situation yourself. However, life is messy. Mistakes are made, especially when you're young (and you sound young -- if you don't know this yet, give it a little while and life will teach you all about it).
Sometimes you don't know the flavor of the koolaid until you're drinking it. I've found that it's the hard decisions forged in that crucible, that come to define us, moreso than the easier decisions we can make in advance.
Not that we shouldn't avoid trouble. Obviously we should. It's just that sometimes it happens, and you've gotta deal with that, and you won't understand it until it happens to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Yes, this is a real thing. It's easy to dismiss past activity when it is a negligible part of your life AND that desire is fading as you date, marry, have kids. I was in that boat, thinking it would go away. I was way late in telling my wife but I never thought of myself as a "cross dresser" until I was able to accept it myself. That was probably in my mid to late thirties. Maybe 15 years into marriage. Then came the, "ok, I am this, now what?" Am I going to act on it? Can I quash it somehow? Shortly after dealing with those questions, I came out.
I like to think I would have told my wife when we were just dating, and had I had the realization I do today, I can state I would have, but I did't have that. I had, "It's a phase, it's done."
Imeni,
The World just isn't that black and white let alone a CDers one.
There isn't a single reason but a multiple of set of circumstances why things aren't said.
In my particular case I had GFs who were Ok with it , so naively I thought it wasn't a problem. At the time it was very sexual especially with a GG again I thought that was OK because I wasn't going to disappoint in the bedroom. There wasn't the level of guilt and shame , that starts to creep in when you find you actually enjoy CDing without the sexual content . It's taken me all this time to discover many of the facts, how could I tell anyone when I didn't know that then .
You are in a position of talking out of freedom of information, there wasn't an internet when I married so I couldn't have turned to this forum as you have for help and advice.
Maybe you are exercising a touch of arrogance when you look at it like that, many of us have soldiered on through some very difficult circumstances and can come here to pass some of that on to others, but please don't put us down you are talking about years before you were born when some of us experienced CDing for the first time. There was no one to turn to then to help and guide us, we just learned to live with it and try and carry on, that's why we still went ahead and married.
I don't regret any of it for a moment, despite everything I have two great children and three lovely grandchildren, which is something my wife can still thank me for and be proud of.
Very well put Teresa! All valid points.
She does sound young with a set in stone ideology but as one gets older life changes a lot, what you thought was true turns out not to be anywhere close.
I told my daughters when they hit 18 write down whats important to them and how they view life in their diaries.
Go back at 26 and look at what you wrote and call me.
They both did and told me how much of an eyeopener it was reading what they wrote all those years ago and how much different life turned out and what they believe in now.
Got it in one Tracii. I would absolutely hate the young version of me, if we could meet. Loud and unthinking.
My mindset changed completely after joining the RAF at 21 and I'm nothing like earlier me. Especially in a wig and a dress. :heehee:
Becky
Quote Originally Posted by Imeni
I simply cannot stand having people complain about their lives, how challenging it is, how much it sucks when you could have just been honest from the go.
How I wish it was that easy. Forthright honesty is not always the best policy. I told my wife after three years of marriage, but only a few weeks after it returned from a ten year absence. I thought it was gone, but I was wrong. I thought I was being honest and truthful and all that nonsense. Her reaction was so violent and mean and so long that I vowed never to reveal anything in my soul to her again. I have kept that vow for 36 years. And she often wonders aloud why. Silence can be golden. Sometimes it can be just plain yellow. It is not one size fits all.
Right. THE WOMEN HERE. The ones who want to learn more, who might consider staying with their husband.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
The ones who jettison their husbands and boyfriends from their lives aren't here.
So we all just have to guess why they ditched their mates. Knowing the general populations degree of embracing crossdressers, it's a pretty easy guess, considering all the women who stay with men who cheat, men who commit crimes, men who beat those wives, etc..
It's the crossdressing that kills most of our relationships. Women will forgive all sorts of things as long as the animal attraction is still there; lies of all kinds, girlfriends on the side, even screwing her sisters, neighbors and friends, consider all those who stay with men who beat them because, and I quote from plenty of interviews when asked why they don't leave, 'But I love him'. As long as the attraction is still there, and female to male attraction is based on the female finding masculine qualities in the man. Suddenly finding out he's not the manly man she thought him to be can kill the attraction faster than anything else. Don't think so?
Imagine any physically attractive guy. Now, imagine him in a wig, make up and a dress walking into any singles bar. How many women are going to be attracted to him? As opposed to say, how many would have been attracted to him in typical male attire? I think we all have a pretty good idea of what the answer will be.
While that logic will never win the debate, it is an interesting question to put out there, just to stop them in their tracks for a few minutes during the discussion. Of course, their answer will automatically be 'That's different'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy-Somthing
Sometimes miss- I really do wonder what the actual percentage of women who ditch their BF's or husbands for just the CDing alone is, IF the CDing is not the majority of the CDers life. In other words, more time spent male as opposed to female? I think there is definitely more than some on here want to admit or just do not understand that it really does happen just because of ANY gender variance, no matter how good the relationship is otherwise. But, I think a lot of women DO stick around so long as the CDing does not progress into full time or transition. Then it has been shown to obviously tilt the percentage far into the eject eject eject territory.
I wonder too what the percentage of the relationships those of us are now in, married or otherwise would have progressed had we told early on.... My wife today says she does not know how things would have gone if I told her right from the start.
Oh my goodness Tracy, I had my two daughters write down stuff also the day before each birthday. Yep its an eye opener.
It's not just communicating about CDing with the wife that is the issue.
If she disapproves and can't handle it on her own, her BFF and her mother and family and then others will find out and as you know, bad news travels fast, and people have been known to lose their jobs, the respect of their children, long-time friends, etc.
Fear of this type of rejection is not just like fear of walking up to a pretty girl and asking her out, feeling like you're going to die
In this case, it emulates what would really happen in primitive life when ousted by your tribe
A man with negative feedback from his CD behavior can lose his family, income and peer support system. He's vulnerable.
As far as not communicating with wives in general ( about other things ) maybe its because they learned that their wives
misinterpret nearly every statement as some type of attack on them and somehow end up upset by the end of the attempt
at "communication". Unless someone is DYING or the house is on fire, communication with the wife many not be worth it.
I cannot speak to all men, but I can tell you why I hid my CDing from my ex-wife. My ex-wife was a master manipulator, still is. She uses information like the CIA using information to flip a target. Had she ever known, and thank God she does not, she would have used it against me at every step. The truth is I should have never married her in the first place, but that was a bell I could not un-ring. So you can call me a coward, but I knew that leaving without having ever told her about this side of me was in some ways a good move. We ended up divorcing for the economic consequences of decisions she made. The bad side was that I have not seen my children in years, as I said she is a master manipulator. So there are consequences form men, loosing your children, the $40,000 in alimony I must pay every year and potentially being outed to people you do not want to know about your hobby.
I'll give you my two cents....I went to catholic school and grew up in a time when you just didn't do this....so when I got married and I knew I was in love...I just didn't think she would accept it. You ind of mention a few things , you hint, you watch stuff on TV and hope you see some light...but mostly you are too scared. You just hide it because it is easier and safer(even though it isn't)....I wish I had been stronger, more honest especially with myself. Would have saved allot of horror.
Ill also add , I think allot of us are figuring it out as we age, then it is almost too late. We all have habits we stop, this one is hard to break.
It took me about 8 years to talk to my wife about it. We started dating when we were in high school and we were both from really conservative families. It took me a long time to figure everything out and work up the courage to talk to her about it. I was totally afraid that she would leave. Thankfully she didn't. She's no thrilled about it but she's taking her time and doing her best to understand. It will take time but she deserves all the time that she needs. Coming from our upbringing, it's a lot to ask but she's doing her best.
A lot the same with me Samantha. My wife was partially raised by her maternal grand parents on their dairy farm. Very conservative, very religious. That my wife hasn't left me is quite remarkable in itself. The general area which we are living in is not a very accepting area either. Up until me, she knew basically no one who was TG. She has said to me that if I had told her right at the beginning, she truly does not know if our relationship would have progressed or not.
My wife knows that I like to CD on occasion but she is not into it. Does not want to see me doing at all. On recommendation of a friend, I got her to read "Katies Playground" by Marilyn Marshmallows as it shown CDing as a fun thing done by adults for fun. It took away the serious side of it for her and she now jokes about making me wear a bra etc. but she does not actually carry out her threat. She's not ready and I don't push it. It has to come from her.
I can only recommend that you find a way to make it less serious. If woman see that it is just harmless fun, they may come around to it. If they see that its a big deal to you, it may send them running. Make it fun.