Nikki_P: I actually jumped straight from nothing to being TS. Never identified as a CD.
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Nikki_P: I actually jumped straight from nothing to being TS. Never identified as a CD.
What you wrote doesn't make sense. By definition, every human being MUST have a male, female, or non-binary gender identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by GBJoker
Like a of folks here that r commenting about others they have no clue about!:brolleyes:
Jennifer, while I hate to agree with u, I believe u r correct about CD's. My journey may confirm that. When I began dressing out of the blue at age 50+, I believe I was trans. I wanted female breasts, fantasized about SRS, and nothing about any of it turned me on. :straightface:
Then, over the next 10+ years, I transitioned. Into what u may ask? Into a "fetish CD", (Your description, not mine!):tongueout
I only know I have no woman inside me trying to get out or female side. And, I have lost all interest in having breasts or SRS, etc. Chew on THAT all u "experts"!:devil:
Mirya: Why? I didn't. What can I say.
That's unpossible! Remember, we're all the same - we just went all the way. It's easy when you don't love your family enough to lie to them for decades. Plus, CDs are women anyway, so long as they're wearing a dress.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaP
Seriously though... Yes.
I don't recall anyone writing any of those things (which I get why you find objectionable) in this thread. are we moving to snark mode now? Serious talk time trying to actually understand real people's perspectives over?
My therapist's comments were related specifically to a transgender spectrum. My reply about trans and cis on a gender spectrum was in response to how Becky worded her question to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
Thanks So Much!Quote:
Originally Posted by KymberlyOct
Some years ago I spent the better part of a decade doing introspection kinds of things. While it did have a positive effect on my life in general, one of the important things it did for me was to learn to listen to myself. And that is a reminder to consider ones thoughts and reactions in the context of a singular event, but also to consider it in the larger context.
I would think about something that happened to me and how I felt about, but I would also think about why my reaction was very different compared to many others here. And it's not that I sat down and an hour later had it sorted. It's been going on since the first time that I dressed and went out back in 2003. It's a matter of thinking, slowly, about why you thought the way you did or reacted the way you did.
I like to consider things in terms of parallels, so that's why I mentioned bisexuality. And before anyone is led to "It's just a phase." or "You're just in denial.", initially I did think I was gay. After several years it eventually occurred to me that bisexual was a much better description. Anyway, the parallel was that in my first encounter with a man (and I was almost 50 at the time) there was no hesitation or reluctance about what I was doing. It just seemed appropriate for me. Similarly, the first time that I went out dressed, what I was doing really wasn't a problem for me. Certainly I was concerned about the possibility of running into crazy people, but I was very comfortable in what I was doing. That's what made me realize that what I felt and what I did was indeed appropriate for me.
I can speak only about my thoughts. I'm not refusing the notion of being a Crossdresser. However, the problem is that it doesn't cover most of how I think and what I do. When you look at the second paragraph of Post #37, it should be clear that there are a lot of differences; significant differences. It isn't good or bad; it's just different. With respect to me, any definition with so many gaps in it isn't useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirya
Regarding the sub-types you mentioned, it isn't unwilling. The truth is that to this point, I've just not considered it. Currently, it doesn't seem to be a priority to me. That's not to say that I will never consider it, it's just there's no burning need so I haven't invested any effort. Over time, there have been a number of threads concerning the WHY behind what people do. I've never really invested energy in that either. From my perspective, I don't believe that knowing would change what I do or how I think.
Not sure if it would help the understanding of others. It seems that people either believe what I say or they try to morph it into something else that fits their own views. In that sense, the former wouldn't change and people won't stop trying to do the latter. All I can do is try to be clear about explaining my thoughts. How they get interpreted by others is beyond my influence.
DeeAnn
Nice comment Zooey.
Since I am gender fluid. My SO say's that I am not either/or but I am both/and male/female. So me thinks that I am pretty in the middle of the transgender spectrum. I agree that clothes do not make one a woman. I run in drab as a feminine mode as well a male. But when I am fem I do like to express my femininity and that is wearing female clothes and at that time I do feel like a woman. Yet in drab it is what it is boo hoo. But we can't always schedule when it happens and it is so fun trying to be manly when your are in your feminine frame of mind. But we had a life time of social male conditioning so we can muddle thought it.
I have a strange question. Why is the transsexual group running a thread on crossdressers and transgender? I mean you are definitely women, why would this be interesting to you. I can say without a doubt that some of the CD gals are women or very close to be one. So we have a lot of threads on what we are wearing, etc.
My SO asked if the transsexuals insist on saying that wearing a dress does not make one a woman, how are they presenting as a woman other than the clothes that they wear? What is different. Or are we all in the same spectrum.
Call it a preemptive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikki_P
I would like to dive into this further, as I recently got into a bit of a thing with somebody over it. I think we have a terminology problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
Male/female are sexes.
Masculine/feminine are traits or characteristics.
Man/woman are identities (as are non-binary, etc.)
So, with respect to non-binary people, my contention is that:
They are either male, female, or perhaps have an indeterminate or combination intersex condition
They have some combination of masculine and feminine characteristics
They are neither men nor women. They are non-binary.
Thoughts?
I'll just speak for myself here, so as to avoid trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
I present as a woman in the same way that any woman does (until genitals get involved) - by living my life as a woman. I work as a woman, I date as a woman, I sleep as a woman, I relax as a woman. I have an F on all of my ID. There is no point at which I am living as anything other than a woman. It doesn't matter what I'm wearing at the time. With apologies in advance to Marcelle (whom I deeply respect as a woman), I run on estrogen like a woman, I have breasts like a woman, and I look a lot more like a woman than a man, regardless of what I'm wearing - including when I'm wearing nothing.
DeeAnn, you wrote, "I am not a Crossdresser" in post #39. Then, less than 6 hours later you wrote, "I'm not refusing the notion of being a Crossdresser" in post #58. Isn't that a contradiction? I don't understand what you're saying.
GBJoker, you wrote in post #46 that you're not a crossdresser and not a transsexual. And you added that you have no male, female, or even a non-binary identity. And then you wrote in post #52 that you "actually jumped straight from nothing to being TS". I assume by TS you mean transsexual? But you said earlier that you're not a transsexual. I don't get it.
Please, help me understand and clarify what each of you meant, because my brain is telling me that you're contradicting yourselves. But maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, this whole thing comes down to identity vs. expression.
As far as I can tell, most crossdressers here (not all) have next to no ability to distinguish between these two things, and pretty visibly conflate them constantly. They can't see the difference between adopting a persona, no matter how well developed the character is, and having an identity.
If your identity is contingent on the clothes you're wearing at the time, it's not an identity - sorry. It's a persona; a character you're choosing to play.
Two recent pictures of me. Would your SO consider me a man in one and female in the other based on what I am wearing? I'm the same woman either way. At my night time fast food job, no one refers to me as "he" even though I am wearing a guys shirt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
OK, said another way...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirya
I am not a Crossdresser. But, any notion that would suggest that I said that because I reject the label out of hand would not be correct. I am not a Crossdresser because the characteristics don't match up.
So, it isn't contradiction. It isn't running from the possibility of being a Crossdresser. It is realizing the shortcomings in the definition compared to what I think, how I behave and what I do. The same logic can be applied to the Transsexual end of the spectrum. That doesn't match well either.
DeeAnn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
Well, the mods get to decide what is here. Content tends to fluctuate and it seems we are having more discussions in this subforum related to identity, whether the OP intended it or not.
Getting to the nuts and bolts, I don't have to present as a woman to be a woman. Presenting is expression and being a woman is identity. But like Melissa (and many others) it starts with how I feel. Then it goes through the things like body modifications I choose. I may or may not use hormones. I may or may not get surgery. Everything else I do is variable. I only have to feel, the rest is my choice. I know that really broadens it, but it is the base starting point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
They are. And then the get unhappy when called out. Consistency is important to be believable. Evolution is fine, most of us do. But inconsistency is identifiable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirya
No, what I said was consistent as the thought was originally formed. However, I type with 3 fingers so anything I type will take some time. Sometimes thoughts may not be fully filled out. In any event, as I completed the thought above, let's not manufacture inconsistency when there is none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue
DeeAnn
What????? If you say one thing in one post and another thing in another post, that inconsistent. It doesn't matter how many fingers you use. C'mon! Really?
Did you read the full statement? The idea was rejected solely because it didn't fit. It had nothing to do with not wanting to be called a Crossdresser. If it's true, it's true. If it's not, it's not and I think something was read into the statement that was not intended.
Also, when I say that I identify as Transgender, I'm also quick to point out that everyone who considers themselves to be Transgender is not looking to transition. In that case, I don't have a problem with the term, but I do have a problem with how it has been reconfigured in the current press. The clarification makes the point clear.
And yes, occasionally I get a bit economical with a given thought. There is sometimes a conscious process to minimize the amount of verbiage. That's just how it is as it does take me considerably longer to fashion a message. Really.
DeeAnn
Economy of words is not the same as economy of thought, and neither are generally the most efficient way to communicate.
Much better to simply lead with complete, consistent thoughts, assuming they were actually consistent.
Not necessarily. The chances that a posting is read is usually inversely proportional to its length.
So, is Post #64 NOT consistent? Please point out where it is not.
DeeAnn
Mirya: In the past I jumped straight from nothing to being a transsexual. Soon as I understood what the term "transsexual" meant, I realized that was what I was. (Man, that's crappy English writing there...)
But I've recently been convinced by several people (mostly people here) that I am not a transsexual.
So I don't know what I am.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
As the OP my intent was to discuss the opinion of my therapist that crossdressing is a part of a transgender spectrum. How that occurred in my visit with her was that I made a comment distinguishing CD vs TG to which she replied - 'well actually the current view of many in the gender psychology field is that CD and TG are merely two different points along the same spectrum" I found this interesting from an identity perspective as I am newly transitioning and am considering many thoughts. Therefore, I wanted to get the insight of this group on the topic and concept of a CD and TG spectrum and whether it was a valid point of view. I expected some strong opinions in each direction and was not disappointed. I do think it has been an interesting and eye opening discussion with good points made from a variety of opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue
What do you mean by "nothing"? You were "nothing"? What's that supposed to mean? I don't understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by GBJoker
As for the definition of "transsexual" - according to the sticky that's posted in this forum, that definition is "An individual who is changing their assigned birth gender permanently to that of the opposite." So if you are going through that process or have already done it, then you're a transsexual, and if you're not, you're not a transsexual. That's pretty simple, right?
And that's totally ok. If you currently don't know what you are, that's fine. Not everyone knows to begin with. But don't you want to know what you are? Don't you think you owe it to yourself to find out what your true gender identity is, whether that's male, female, or non-binary? Maybe you should talk to a gender therapist and figure it out? Or are you content to continue to live as you are? If that's the case, I would posit that you're a confused cross-dresser, because you're not questioning your assigned-at-birth gender identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by GBJoker
Just wanting to say THANK YOU all for having this discussion.
It helps me a lot to hear all the different opinions.
I seem to resonate most with what DeeAnn has been describing. I do not necessarily have much to add....just wanted to say I am grateful to feel part of this community.
Peace
Stevie
Hi Kym
When I first started truly exploring my gender issues I decided to find other trans people so found a popular club/bar in London. I needed to reach out and find others like me.
I went several times and to different places but I nearly always discovered the same thing, I didn't fit and I couldn't understand why until some more self discovery later.
The thing is there I was in a place full of trans people but they were men in dresses, now when I say that it's not meant as dismissive many looked terrific, some really pretty and totally passable but that is just 'expression' when I engaged people in conversation despite looking every inch a feminine woman they wanted to drink beer, talk sports and women. Mentally they were men.
If I was blind and couldn't see the outfits then it was no different to going into a regular guys bar (if you ignored the chat about what they were wearing).
My point is most of these men had no identity/gender issues they just had issues with society not allowing them to express the look/clothes they liked. Their need was to be allowed to show their feminine style, it was all about the clothes never how they felt internally identifying as a man.
I would hear stuff like "Why can't I wear a skirt and heels at work" rather than "Why do I struggle to bond and communicate with the men at work".
The vast majority of Crossdressers are like this, they have lots of issues with expression rarely any issue with identity, wanting to look like a woman is not the same as being a woman. How many would be women if they could only ever wear trousers and we're average looking with a flat chest? Take away the feminine look and most are not interested.
If expression and identity are in the same spectrum then every human sits in that spectrum making it irrelevant.
If the spectrum is gender expression then sure fetishists and drag etc but I don't belong there.
If the spectrum is purely trans identity then OK I accept I'm down one end of it, but I don't accept male identity fetishists or Drag in that spectrum we have nothing in common.
Right now the spectrum to me just feels like a nice easy way to marginalise all the weirdos together hence why I don't like it.
Reading all this reminds me that people are not rational creatures; rather they are rationalizing ones.
Hi Kim,Quote:
Originally Posted by KymberlyOct
To your original query I can respond with an understanding of the field as I am educated in psych side of the house and have many colleagues who deal/dealt with gender identity issues. The common belief among psychologists (including those with various levels of understanding of gender identity issues) is this spectrum theory. However, it is posited on observations made by psychologists who deal mainly with TS folk. Now there are some TS folk who know from the start they were born in the wrong body and there are others who wander toward that epiphany after years of struggle, confusion, guilt and utter chaos . . . I was one such person. When this hits you like the coyote having the roadrunner drop a piano on his head . . . you don't know what to make of it so you grab tenuously at something . . . I must be CD. However you quickly realize that the clothes do nothing to quell the chaos, perhaps for a mayfly existence in time but in the end the confusion returns. It is not until you truly understand that is about being who you were meant to be (in my case a woman), that you stop thinking about heels, dresses, make-up and whatnot and start thinking about just being.
So to bottle the genie, from a research perspective it is plausible that this conception about a spectrum is predicated on psychs dealing with TS folk who are confused at first and when the conversation about crossdressing comes up . . . well . . . it seems we all start there at some point so it is probable that researchers in the field are going to define a neat spectrum to place people along in an effort to diagnose. My take on this is that this is a "red herring" or an extraneous variable which has no bearing on TS folk and where we are in the grander scheme of things. Specifically, the field is confusing dressing which is most likely the first step in expressing the person you need to be as some sort of "gateway expression" to being TS. Vis a vis that assumption . . . then CDers are on the same spectrum. This is an erroneous assumption IMHO because it is unlikely most of the studies have included a true control group . . . actual CDers. More specifically, men who just like to dress up from time to time but know they are still men. It is more likely any studies included TS folk at varying levels of transition who are not presenting as the target gender but know in their heart of hearts they are the target gender.
Bluntly put but spot on IMHO and mirrors what I have seen in the literature. This is not to say CD folk don't have gender issues but it is not the same as trans folk (again . . . my opinion). When I transitioned in my life, I didn't all of a sudden take on a new personality (e.g., stereotypical feminine traits), my personality stayed the same because that is the way personality is . . . stable and consistent through life (with the exception of significant life events which can alter for a period of time). I was always a woman and personality reflected that . . . no not my mannerisms, my walk, my talk and whatnot (societal constructs folks) but who I am, how I react to things, interact, see the world and whatnot. This is what I see as a big difference between TS and CD folk. TS folk don't become a new person as their target gender, they become the person they were always destined to be. CD folk take on a mantel of the target gender but always return to their preferred gender at the end of the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
Dana,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana44
To be specific, I don't present as a woman at work . . . I am a woman at work and that is how I am perceived. Don't get me wrong, I am not a stunning beauty by any stretch of the imagination and I have no "passing privilege" but people see me as a woman because that is who I am. It is not about the look, what I wear, how I talk, walk or whatnot it is about me knowing I am a woman and projecting that to the world writ large. People use the proper gender pronouns, refer to me by my proper name and just see me as a woman.
Cheers
Marcelle
This is a helpful post. I'm quoting and parsing to help organize my thoughts in response only.
Me too. I'm planning on a support group meeting and/or making some friends from here. Never been much of a bar person and it seems like the goal for many in going to bar is to find a sex partner or perhaps someone to date.Quote:
Originally Posted by becky77
So they were talking about stereotypical guy stuff. Was that a function of being in a bar; typically superficial light discussions are had, and those conversations differ based on gender?Quote:
I went several times and to different places but I nearly always discovered the same thing, I didn't fit and I couldn't understand why until some more self discovery later.
The thing is there I was in a place full of trans people but they were men in dresses, now when I say that it's not meant as dismissive many looked terrific, some really pretty and totally passable but that is just 'expression' when I engaged people in conversation despite looking every inch a feminine woman they wanted to drink beer, talk sports and women. Mentally they were men.
If I was blind and couldn't see the outfits then it was no different to going into a regular guys bar (if you ignored the chat about what they were wearing).
I'm trying to think about conversations I've had with both men and women work friends, or at parties with either gender, which is about as close as I can relate to a bar convo. Seems like we always try to find commonality- what's going on with work, politics, family issues, home projects, etc. With my female friends I can think of a significant difference- their romantic relationships. Never came up with guy friends. I have zero interest in sports so that's never a topic of commonality. my sister in law is a big baseball fan, and my sister a big basketball fan, so if I was interested in either I suppose we would discuss both.
Those sound like topics of commonality for a room full of cross dressers. I get why it would be of no interest to you.Quote:
My point is most of these men had no identity/gender issues they just had issues with society not allowing them to express the look/clothes they liked. Their need was to be allowed to show their feminine style, it was all about the clothes never how they felt internally identifying as a man.
I would hear stuff like "Why can't I wear a skirt and heels at work" rather than "Why do I struggle to bond and communicate with the men at work".
Here's where it gets very complex for me. Above Sue wrote that (I'm paraphrasing) that her gender indentity starts with her internal feeling that she is a woman. I've read that plenty of times on here. Check/tick. You believe you ARE a woman. No issue. I've seen at least one thread, iirc in the GG section, asking what it feels like to be a woman. I'm really hung up on this concept. Because I have no idea what gender identity feels like. Do I feel like a man or a woman? Yes. I don't know. I feel like me. I discussed it with my cis gendered GG wife, who didn't get it either(and she's a pretty smart, intellectual person). Do I have some stereotypical traits that were stereotypically assigned to women in the late 20th century in Western European and American culture? Yes. I'm relational in my dealings with other people. I can be emotional when watching sappy movies. I care about other people's feelings and moderate my language and tone when speaking in an attempt to not hurt their feelings. my emotional intelligence is pretty high and I can read non verbal cues fairly well. I have always had platonic girlfriends and felt more comfortable in deeper relationships with them. I try to empathize with what my kids are feeling and measure my response accordingly when they need discipline, or a hug. or a joke. There's a bunch more.Quote:
The vast majority of Crossdressers are like this, they have lots of issues with expression rarely any issue with identity, wanting to look like a woman is not the same as being a woman. How many would be women if they could only ever wear trousers and we're average looking with a flat chest? Take away the feminine look and most are not interested.
If expression and identity are in the same spectrum then every human sits in that spectrum making it irrelevant.
If the spectrum is gender expression then sure fetishists and drag etc but I don't belong there.
If the spectrum is purely trans identity then OK I accept I'm down one end of it, but I don't accept male identity fetishists or Drag in that spectrum we have nothing in common.
Does that make my gender indentity more female? I don't know. I also like cars(I am not the stig). and working on them. and driving them. and driving over stuff off road. and hunting. and home repair. and spending time with family. and sci-fi (david tennant was the best doctor).
All of which are still stereotypes. Yes they can be associated with either gender. My wife like gardening. and home repair. and art. and spending time with family. she likes cars but more on the aesthetic side rather than performance interests. Our roles in life are very, very similar.
So again, do I feel like a man or a woman? Yes. I guess. I feel like me. Z wrote that most CD's conflate identity with expression. maybe. I think the two are inexorably linked, at least for me. I wrote above that I feel an nagging in my head that drives me to want to present as a woman. I have a need to wear makeup and a wig to look like one. The clothes are part of the package, but not a focus. I get some level of satisfaction when I do so. It alleviates the nagging. Does this make me feel like my GI is that of a woman? I don't know, I still feel like me. My personality doesn't change en femme. Then I take it all off, I sigh in my head, then a while later, the nagging returns.
Does this make me a transsexual? I don't think so, but maybe. Maybe the more I do it, or the more I go out and live that way for periods of time, the nagging will get stronger and stronger, and I will get depressed or anxious or otherwise feel so much dysphoria that I will decide my only option is to transition. I kinda doubt it, but I'm not close minded to the concept that's within the realm of possibilities. I've never identified as a female, but there have been times I wished I was one.
So for now I identify under the TG umbrella, my gender compass is wobbly and I think my gender ID is somewhere in the middle of what I consider a continuum, with cis on the poles at both ends.
Yes, I'm sure there are many agendas at play, and some of them don't have the best interests of trans people at the root.Quote:
Right now the spectrum to me just feels like a nice easy way to marginalise all the weirdos together hence why I don't like it.
Excellent post Marcelle.
Hi Nikki
In regard to conversations this is something I have learnt.
Men tailor their conversation depending on what gender they are mixing with and most GG will never see this. Nor will a CD unless joining a group of men who believe they are a woman.
As soon as a woman leaves the group the conversation becomes very different, guys talk to me now completely different they will discuss feelings and family for example which is nice but it's nothing like it was when I was accepted as a guy. That suits me fine because that's a more natural conversation to me.
It's now the opposite but years ago we would go out as a group the conversation would be great as a mixed group at some point the girls and boys split, instantly the conversation changed and suddenly it's eg nothing but Motorbikes for the next 40mins I couldn't function in that way of conversing. Now I belong with the female groups it's just different, women communicate differently and it's hard to explain unless you experience it from both perspectives.
It is an interesting dynamic the same was true at the CD gatherings despite dress everyone went into male convo mode albeit with the freedom to talk about feminine things.
In regards to your point about what it is to be a woman I can answer this:
I live as a woman and I no longer question my gender I just am, I spend no time thinking what percentage of feminine or masculine I am, I just am now. Is that a woman? All I can say is I didn't feel like that as a man.
So in a way I know I'm a woman because I feel right and being a man felt wrong.
Rather than asking if you are a woman internally perhaps look at if you have any issues being a man? (Removing any interest in clothing).
B, thank you for your thoughtful reply.
I'm not aware of any issue I have being a guy. Other than the nagging in my head, which is not discontent with being a guy, but rather a need to see myself en femme. which I don't understand :)
Then you aren't TS Nikki. Which is a good thing what you need is friends and a place to go to express this feminine part of youQuote:
Originally Posted by Nikki_P
Transition well it can be done but I have no idea why someone would want to be a full-time crossdresser but it happens. There is no right or wrong way to live as long as you understand the reasons for your actions.
This subject of who is really transsexual seems to come up all the time, probably because there are so many crossdressers who contemplate transition. Saying it's all just a "spectrum" avoids many hard questions anyone thinking about permanently changing their gender should address head-on. You have to ask yourself if you want to live your REAL life as a man or as a woman, and if you’re willing and able to go through the many, many hardships of legal, medical, and social transition. Do not theorize your way out of doing the work or you will regret it.
Agreed and agreed. I have no desire to transition, and no desire to be TS. I just thought about it 25 years ago, and today consider myself on a journey, open to the idea that I have no idea where it will lead, but like I've consistently written, I serious doubt it would lead to transition. I don't want to :)
DeeAnn, I am not going to traverse back through threads. The point is that you have contradicted yourself from reply to reply, not within one reply. Look, I get non-binary and I know that not all do. I do a ton of work with in the community and I have a ton of friends that are non-binary in one "subtype", so to speak, or another. When they are will to share, each has been able to clearly explain their feelings to the point of where I learned. Or they said they were figuring it out. This does include expression being different on a daily basis because expression and identity are two different things. But if the narrative moves around, it is confusing and starts to diminish the strength of what you say.
On the subject of spectrum, I see two definitions being discussed and want to pull them apart.
One is where a person starts on one end being male (in a MTF case) and traverses across as they figure out who they are and stops at some point on this line. This *might* apply to some people, but it lays too many assumptions out and I agree with Misty as it is not a good description.
The other is picking a point on a spectrum of man to woman identity (in recognizing Zooey's distinctions) where one end is man and the other woman and the spectrum allows points where a person can describe their identity (lets get away from feelings as that can cross borders of what that means). So a person never moves across this spectrum, they live on a point and don't move at all. In reality, we can be wrong as we learn who we are and correct ourselves as we figure it out, but it isn't sliding across the spectrum, it is using a point to help understanding. So for example, my identity is completely at the end of "woman". I have a friend (female identified at birth) that described their identity to me and actually wrote this spectrum on a white board and said "I am here". The spot was about 2/3's of the way from woman to man. That helped me a lot. They are consistent in their stating this and living it.
So in the first description of spectrum, we create a path that not all take, so it can be misleading and a bad instructional tool for someone starting out who may feel they need to follow it. In the second description of spectrum, we have a tool that helps a person identify their identity in relational to man and woman and it is something you put a tack in and say "there" and not "I passed through that" or "I feel that way on some days".
Sorry, if you are unwilling to point out where I have erred, then I have to believe that I have not and I consider this to be just unwarranted misdirection.
DeeAnn
Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
Economical = coming up short and inconsistent. It isn't my job to go back and come up with what you said. Notice you are being called out by multiple people and no one is backing you up? Here's your sign....Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
If you want to complain, then you need something specific to complain about. So yes, it is your job to point out what you are objecting to. Otherwise the only conclusion is that it is no more that wasted bandwidth.
Let's be clear about something. What I write is absolutely what I believe, how I perceive things and what I do. I am always completely honest. The discussions here don't work otherwise. But, that is not to say that I expect agreement. I can only speak to my situation and that may be understood, not understood, agreed with or not.
The point I was trying to convey earlier has a parallel. Many Crossdressers here rail against the notion when someone points out that they are under the Transgender umbrella. My only guess is that they are automatically associating Transgender with transitioning as is done in the popular press. Anyway, they vehemently reject the idea that they fall under the umbrella. As this relates to me, the point is that I wasn't saying what I said because I was rejecting the idea of being a Crossdresser. What I said reflected the differences between how we define Crossdressers and what I think, how I behave and what I do or have done. While it may be possible to dismiss one or two anomalies, when you have a bunch, you can no longer make the case. So, I rejected the idea of being a Crossdresser not because I might have some difficulty with it, but because it leaves A LOT that is unexplained for me. The criteria just doesn't fit and I see no way in which it can. That is the simple truth of it.
I can't explain this any further, so if it isn't understood, I can't help it.
DeeAnn
I pointed it out even though it isn't my job. At this point I am bowing out of this. Your self importance and inability to listen to anyone is taking me down a path I don't like to be. I fight for our rights and as I said above, I totally affirm non-binary identities. I am done with this side bar and will only reply to the spectrum portion of the discussion.
I find it interesting that these discussions often turn personal. I do try to be as honest and as straightforward as I can be. What I write is the truth as I perceive it. On those rare occasions when I have said something of a personal nature, it is in reaction, never in initiation.
I have covered the previous point about Crossdressers. If there is anything else where someone believes that I have contradicted myself, then please point this out. Otherwise there is nothing to which I can respond.
DeeAnn
You know you are transsexual when you need to transition and take those steps to do it. Everything else is immaterial.
and once again, one person turns a whole thread about themselves. I am tired of a comment being made or a question asked which then takes the whole thread off topic. Responding once is acceptable, then to keep on harping at each other is not. We have a bloody PM system, use the damn thing and keep to the topic. With apologies to Kimberly and all the others who actually contributed to the topic, this thread is now closed.