Bad Reputation ? A question fo the FTMs, MTFs, and GGs

This thread came along at a perfect time. In a university class, they watched Paris Is Burning. Even though it's about drag queens, most people don't bother to seperate crossdressers from drag queens.

Here is the review one of the stupids.. I mean students turned in:

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Paris is Burning is the story of homosexuals in the late 80’s attempting to break social constructs through the power of cross-dressing and dancing to new wave pop music. The drag queens portrayed in this film yearn to be accepted in mainstream society. Furthermore, they wish to be wealthy, famous and sexy women. Rather than do what normal people do – find realistic and obtainable goals in life – they dress as women and dance for each other at various “balls”. This movie is not the story of gay men searching for tolerance in the world. This movie is a glorification of mental illness.
Most of the gay men profiled in this movie have heartbreaking stories to share. Many of them have been shunned from home after coming out of the closet and seek a group of people to accept them for who they are. This aspect of the chronicle is truly tragic. However the healthiness of acting out fantasies of being women is highly questionable. This type of role-playing is not accepted in other social spheres, so why should it be any different when analyzing gay culture? Let’s say a person wished to be a professional football player but lacked the athletic ability to do so. If this person were to walk around dressed as Brian Urlacher on a daily basis - complete with a helmet and pads – they would be shunned. When a man tries to defy his own biology and become a woman, it should be treated the same way. One gay man interviewed in the movie points out that heterosexual men congregate and watch a major sporting event together. He says that the balls are their version of a sporting event. First of all, such a statement incorrectly implies that gay men are incapable of being sports fans. Second, it is an awful comparison to draw. Most sports fans live vicariously through the athletes and will sometimes wear replica jerseys and play in informal games. However they generally do not allow this fantasy to consume their entire lives and the ones that do are typically shunned for such radicalism.
One of the drag queens profiled is a man who goes by the pseudonym of “Venus Xtravaganza”. He wishes to be a white woman because he says that they are given all of the luxuries in life without working for them. Not only is this a racist statement it is obviously not true. Sadly people are sometimes discriminated against because of their gender, sexuality, creed or race. However, very few people in this world are simply handed everything on a silver platter. Everyone must work for what they have and everyone faces some sort of limitation(s). Overcoming adversity is part of life. Venus’ way of chasing material wealth is to dress like a white woman and get into cars with strange men. This life plan – as the movie tells us - resulted in her demise when she was found in a sleazy motel strangled to death.
The idea that these gay men who are disowned by their families can come together and use each other for support is a wonderful concept. It is cruel for a parent to turn their back on a child just because of their sexuality. However for these gay men to live in a world of complete fantasy where they are women is fundamentally wrong. Some of these men go as far as to mutilate their bodies through plastic surgery to give themselves the body parts of a woman. This behavior is sick and is not something to be celebrated.

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[QUOTE=DayTripper;653033]

The song 'Lola' depicts the fear of a straight male momentarily attracted to a TG, then discovering the deception.


Hmm, that's not how I read the song..

"I'm glad I'm a man and so is Lola"

Whilst there is certainly confusion at the begining,

" Well I'm not dumb but I can't understand
Why she walked like a woman and talked like a man "

But

"Then I looked at her and she at me
Well that's the way that I want it to stay
And I always want it to be that way for my Lola "

Sounds pretty accepting to me :-)


Rachel Newark

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Originally Posted by Kimkandy

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone... :cool: Jesus Christ

Who threw that? :rolleyes: Come on, no is going till we find out who threw that... :kickbutt:

Kim

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" Are there any *Women* here ?????"

Rachel Newark

I don't think we're hated, beyond the (small) number of intolerant people who believe that anything vaguely different is evil. But I do think the public perception of CDs is largely based on what Eddie Izzard calls "weirdo transvestites". For example, last night there was a CD in one of those police video shows: he was a toothless, mad man in a boob tube and bikini bottoms who'd called a cab and attacked the driver with a whip. And unfortunately that's pretty representative of the CDs who appear in the media: CDs are bank robbers, serial killers, mentally ill...

I think, too, that many people see CDing as a rather grubby sexual fetish. So when they see a CD in a real life situation they tend to assume that the CD is getting his/her jollies, which is pretty disturbing - if a grown man was next to you in the supermarket and he was dressed as a baby, or in a gimp outfit, you might be freaked out. To many people, CDers are doing exactly the same.

The CDs I've seen out in public (in everyday situations, eg shops, not clubs) have typically been fiftyish men dressed in the sort of clothes even an 18 year old girl might think was a bit tarty (the sort of outfits that, if you bought them for your SO, might get you slapped or made to sleep in the shed), and that doesn't help to counteract the "it's not about sex!" message many CDs try to put across.

And then there's the way (a minority of) CDs behave online, which has been discussed endlessly on this board: a parody of femininity where feminism never happened, putting on stockings changes your sexual orientation and everybody *giggles*. And I can think of lots of women's discussion forums which have been invaded by the less thoughtful CDs out there, who see the entire internet as a place to post fake stories about being force femmed by their aunt...

My SO's very understanding about the whole CD thing, and we've made lots of progress - but the hardest part of it all was to dispel the idea that as a CD I want to dress as a schoolgirl and pick up men when I go for groceries. I suspect that if my SO had looked online and ended up in some of the more obvious CD sites (not this one) where the giggling CDs hang out, the process of understanding would have been much more difficult - if not impossible.

It's natural for people to be afraid of what they don't understand, and this is not understood by most people in society.

Even so Lindsay, I do find that fat middle-aged, bald butcher with a mustache kinda cute in his own unique way.:happy: Ericka Kay

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Originally Posted by Marla S

Can't get a grip on it.

What precisely is it that causes our negative reputation in public ?

Any ideas ?

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This is a quote from Chief Dan george that explains it to me at least...



" If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them, and what you do not know you will fear.
And what one fears one destroys. "

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Originally Posted by Kieron Andrew

most of joe/jo public 'think' that ALL CDing comes with sexual connotation, and that we are sex craved perverts!

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So . . . does that mean I'm the only one?!:heehee:

There are so many reasons, which is why there are so many good answers here. Another reason: I think some "straight" guys are afraid they may be attracted to a crossdresser, and they'll have to face something about themselves. :eek:

Hell :thumbsup: Thanks for all the replys. :love:
Very interesting. I need a while to sort this.

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Originally Posted by noname

Millions of women are crossdressing every single day, ( heck they can cross dress to an interview and get a professional job ) but enough women do it, no one is really caught off guard.

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The thing is now, in western culture, it is not considered cross dressing. There was a time when it was unthinkable for a woman to wear pants, now it is perfectly acceptable. That acceptance was achieved by just doing it, by forging ahead in spite of the objections raised by others. I feel that the same is required here. Everything is suspect until it becomes so commonplace that no one even notices anymore. That is why this will become acceptable only through the efforts of all of us to get out there and make it normal. The more who do this the faster it will become normal.

Gender roles are mainly a construction of society. Those constructs persist because the population at large maintains those constructs. (If we didn't care for the constructs in the first place, we would have gotten rid of it already.) Crossdressers compose a threat to that construct, and demeaning the activity is an activity which helps to maintain the construct of distinct gender roles. The thing is, gender roles for women have become more and more plastic, because assuming a more masculine identity is neither embarassing (grabbing more power is never embarassing), and also that women have in general historically have been recognized as victims, and that enforcing old structures of dominant-submissive male female relationships is considered bad. Much of the time, when documentaries cover transgendered people transitioning, they often focus on female to male, for the reason of creating sympathy, because the public is much more at ease with it. Male gender roles, however are strongly as enforced as ever. The strong emergence of the male gay community, and the feminist movement, has created a surge in the need for male heterosexual men to stake out their identity against such "threats", since masculinity is largely defined by homophobia and objectification of women, at least historically. As a result, male objection to crossdressing can be quite strong, especially because of the misperception that gay men are really "transgender"; the perception that a man liking another man is impossible; only feminine or "womanly" men could like other men. (This stereotype is not lost on the gay community; the bear movement is at least part of a counter to this perception.) In addition, some of feminism objects to male to female crossdressing, because it can be percieved as a threat to femininity, men trying "to take" what women have worked so hard to earn. Then there's also the risk of being "trapped" by a transgender person, either a man falling for a crossdresser, or even a lesbian falling for a crossdresser, only to discover to their dismay, they have been made inadvertently, gay/straight (respectively). That then arouses a sense of self-doubt and perhaps self-disgust because of aforementioned gender role definitions, and that may be translated into fear, hate and even violence, targeted at the person or group.

Let`s not forget the damage done by Jerry Springer,Cops,movies like Dressed to kill and Psycho,crime dramas on tv that portray us negatively,stupid British drag comedy etc.etc.Not very flattering portraits ladies.-Angela

Better than the Kinks, why not try someone more modern, and more in tune with what is going on.

I don't give a damn 'bout my reputation
You're living in the past it's a new generation
A girl can do what she wants to do and that's
What I'm gonna do
An' I don't give a damn ' bout my bad reputation

Oh no not me

An' I don't give a damn 'bout my reputation
Never said I wanted to improve my station
An' I'm only doin' good
When I'm havin' fun
An' I don't have to please no one
An' I don't give a damn
'Bout my bad reputation

Oh no, not me
I don't give a damn
'Bout my reputation
I've never been afraid of any deviation
An' I don't really care
If ya think I'm strange
I ain't gonna change An' I'm never gonna care 'Bout my bad reputation

Like Joan Jett, who still rocks, I guess my question is, why care?

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Originally Posted by Bridget

In addition, some of feminism objects to male to female crossdressing, because it can be percieved as a threat to femininity, men trying "to take" what women have worked so hard to earn.

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That's not the only feminist objection, though. I've seen it said a lot of times that (some) CDers are an insult to women because they come from a very male perspective on what women are like: submissive, pretty little things whose only concerns are make-up, frocks and boys.

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The thing is, gender roles for women have become more and more plastic, because assuming a more masculine identity is neither embarassing

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That's broadly true, but women still get slammed for being too "mannish". A woman boss in a suit is fine as long as she's a *hot* boss, that sort of thing. Maybe I'm just from a backwards part of the world, but the "if she doesn't bat her eyes and dress sexily she's obviously a man-hating lesbian" attitude still persists (because, of course, lesbians are only lesbians because they're too ugly/weird to get a man).

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As a result, male objection to crossdressing can be quite strong

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There's definitely a continuum of bigotry out there. The belief goes roughly like this: all gays are weirdo kid-molesters; CDers are men who dress as women, so they're obviously gay. So they're weirdo kid-molesters too. Let's get them. Depressing.

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only to discover to their dismay, they have been made inadvertently, gay/straight (respectively).

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I'm sure that's a factor for some, but I think the "homophobia = fear of being seduced/tricked" argument, which has been mentioned a few times here, has become an article of faith without really being questioned. Of the bigots I've known, most of them have been equal opportunity bigots in a way: they want to hurt gays, sure, but they also want to hurt blacks, asians, muslims, people with funny accents, people from the next town, people from the wrong church, etc etc etc. They don't want to hurt, say, people from the next town because inside they're scared that if they moved there, they might like it; they don't attack Muslims because deep down they'd love to visit mosques. They're simply people whose entire identity is based on hurting anyone who isn't exactly like them, and the slightest difference is justification for an assault.

I do think Angela's probably right with her list of movies, TV shows etc. As far as the media's concerned, CDs are either dangerously mentally ill or objects of ridicule. I think that's probably the way most people think of CDs.

Noname said:

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Millions of women are crossdressing every single day

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I know it's an old argument, but they aren't: with very, very few exceptions, when women wear trousers, suits, shirts, jeans etc they're wearing clothes designed for, cut for and sold for women. Even the current "mannish" trend is still women's clothing. Same way if a man wears a kilt he's not CDing, because he's wearing a garment made for, cut for and sold for men. A mini-kilt, on the other hand... :)

They fear the unknown, with little enough nerve to ask...I was always told to ask if you didn't know...

Envy, because we are willing to explore and find what really makes us most comfortable...I am my most comfortable as Marcie:2c:

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Originally Posted by Jessica

This is a quote from Chief Dan george that explains it to me at least...
" If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them, you will not know them, and what you do not know you will fear. And what one fears one destroys. "

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Nice Quote Jessica. I mentioned above that the American Indians were written up in Arlene Lev's book "Transgender Emergence" as one of the cultures which accepted transgendered men, "The American Indian Two Spirit Tradition." (pp. 59-61) Arlene writes:

"The tribal concept of Two-Spirit describes an individual who has both a male and a female spirit . . . to be a Two-Spirit means one can see in both directions [as a man and as a woman], and therefore understand the world in a more holisitc manner."

Arlene goes on to explain more:

"Two-Spirited people did not chose their role or status - it was considered their innate nature. . . . a Lakota Shaman, who said, 'the Great Spirit made them wintkes and we accept them as such . . . to us a man is what nature, or his dreams, make him' . . . being Two-Spirited was seen as a sacred gift and treated with reverence."

I think its all quite consistent with Chief Dan George's quote . . . too bad uptight WASP's chose to obliterate the American Indian Culutres rather than assimilate the best parts of it. We might've been treated with reverence . . .;)

When I get into the mind games of who I really am I think of Popeye. He said it frist and the most often- "I yam what I yam and dats all what I yam"
That ends the game for me.
Someone also said," Its better to be disliked for who you are then be liked for who they think you are"
Dapple

I agree with Bridget, her views seem pretty accurate.

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Millions of women are crossdressing every single day

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I'm going to comment on my own comment for clarification. I will agree the majority of people would not say a woman in pants is crossdressing. I do know there are still groups of people who feel that way. I think we can all agree it was around 50 years ago most people would have considered it so.

I don't know if women find a man dressing feminine is considered invading their teritory. But, ironicly they took pants ( traditionally mens only apparel ) and have labled many styles for women only. Perhaps women need to do a little self evaluation?

I really don't care how girly pants may seem, capris ( again origonally mens ) or gouchos, I have no problems wearing them. Perhaps because despite the lable I know it's mens clothing? I really do with though everyone was free to wear what they wished.