another question for all of you - TG and SO after SRS

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Originally Posted by kittypw GG

The penis ranks right up there equal to love. It is what heterosexual love is all about. Without it all you have is friendship. It is a HUGE sacrifice to make for someone. To live without male/female sex would be too big of a sacrifice. I could remain in a loving friendship but it would not be sexually satifying and I would want to be free to seek the life that I was encoded for. One with a MAN as a partner. Yes it would be a deal breaker for me. I don't feel bad about it either, I'm just honest. Why should the transexual be the only one to seek out and become who they want to be? I have the same right to knowledge truth and happiness. Its boils down to way more than choosing love over a penis. :hugs: Kitty

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[SIZE="3"]As TS myself I am in total agreement with you, I do no see myself going down the road SRS, I concider myself non op TS. We are looking for who we are and the SOs we are with even if totally in love with us have wants and needs, and if their sexual preference is not bi why should we not accept otherwise. I have been very close friends with many GG's over the years and not from a sexual need. I enjoy the intimancy I have with my gf and she is not bi, and I would not think she would accept that. She has accepted me for who I am and still has some fears because of just how comfortable I am with this, and of what others might think, but her love for me prevales and if anything has brought us even closer, and my RESPECT for her even greater.:hugs: :love: [/SIZE]

Well, I have read all the posts here and I am surprised at the number of you who said they are sure they would stay together, no matter, after SRS.

In reality, the number of married couples who actually DO manage to stay together after SRS is extremely rare. This is a HUGE dealbreaker for almost all couples. It's all very easy for us to say that nothing would change if we were to become women, but in reality, asking a spouse to become, or at least appear to become, a lesbian in the eyes of her friends, her family, and all the world, is almost an impossible request.

Imagine this, here you are, destroying her husband (esentially killing the man she loved and married), and now she has to completely change her sexual orientation from heterosexual to homosexual. Homosexuals are born gay, it's not a choice, but you are asking her to choose to become a lesbian, if not in actual fact, at least to appear to everyone else as a lesbian. It's not an easy task.

There is no question but that some couples do manage to remain together. I personally have that as my own goal. But it's not an easy road and this question deserves more than the glib answer that love conquers all. Saying that if you really love each other, of course you will remain together, is, to judge by the history, extremely unrealistic.

JMHO
Stephenie

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Originally Posted by Vicky Morgan

Not having SRS could also be the ultimate expression of love to a S.O.
The only difference is you are the one making the unselfish sacrafise.

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and just as difficult for each partner.

SRS must surely be the most difficult place to find oneself while still in a longterm monogomous heterosexual relationship. For both sides. There does not seem to be a win/win for either one.

For myself personally, I have said before, gender is not what makes Carin carin. I know that sounds so strange. But this is how I really feel. I connect with this person on a level that goes beyond gender. why? I have no idea. I just know that I do.

We could get into all kinds of discussion about what is gender, what is true acceptance, how do we view one another beyond the exterior.....and I would be happy to participate. But those discussions might be beyond the scope of the original question.



Louise.

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Originally Posted by Stephenie S

Well, I have read all the posts here and I am surprised at the number of you who said they are sure they would stay together, no matter, after SRS.

In reality, the number of married couples who actually DO manage to stay together after SRS is extremely rare. This is a HUGE dealbreaker for almost all couples. It's all very easy for us to say that nothing would change if we were to become women, but in reality, asking a spouse to become, or at least appear to become, a lesbian in the eyes of her friends, her family, and all the world, is almost an impossible request.

Imagine this, here you are, destroying her husband (esentially killing the man she loved and married), and now she has to completely change her sexual orientation from heterosexual to homosexual. Homosexuals are born gay, it's not a choice, but you are asking her to choose to become a lesbian, if not in actual fact, at least to appear to everyone else as a lesbian. It's not an easy task.

There is no question but that some couples do manage to remain together. I personally have that as my own goal. But it's not an easy road and this question deserves more than the glib answer that love conquers all. Saying that if you really love each other, of course you will remain together, is, to judge by the history, extremely unrealistic.

JMHO
Stephenie

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I did think more folks would see it as the ultimate dealbreaker. Carin and I attended a TG convention a few weeks ago and the # of SOs was quite minimal. That told me that many TGs/CDers do NOT have support from their SOs (and this was confirmed as I listened to many participants talk about their experiences).



Louise.

I have to chime in here. I agree with Stephenie, having gone through this myself. It's not only an issue of SRS and the permanency involved, but the destruction caused during transitioning. When you start transition it's not so bad for the GG. It's when she finally realizes that you are no longer "her" man, but you want to be a woman, that issue causes her to think "If you become a woman, does that make me a lesbian?" Most do not like that idea. The big divide comes when during RLT, it is finally confirmed in her mind that this is a permanent thing, her man is lost, she did not marry a woman. I know few GG's that will put up with that, and only if they are special. Now down to SRS, the deal breaker, usually, if it isn't already over during transition. It's no wonder that GG's won't be involved. I overly simplified the issues, believe me there is many more that have to be dealt with.
When it comes down to it, you know that you are still the same person inside, that never changed. Are you still the same person she married? I don't think so, Not. You are a woman to her, something so far the otherside of what she married, it does not matter, even if you are still the same person inside. Most women don't handle transition well, if at all.
My marriage was over during transition, at the point of RLE, when I kept going right into RLT. Her realization that "her man" was gone for good, dead. She is still my friend, and supports my transitioning 100%. Just can't be married to a woman.
I am not suprised at the number of divorces this issue causes. Not only SRS issues but, CD, TV, TG, and TS issues as well.

Ok, I'm gonna clarify my POV why it would be a deal breaker for me and possibly others.

Someone who wants to go through HRT/SRS is goin to change. To me it means they want to change what they are.

I married a rough n tough Southern Cowboy. If he were to decide to take the HRT/SRS route, it would COMPLETELY change who he is. He would become very feminine and soft. And it wouldnt be just when he is dressed. It would be a gradual thing till its 100% of the time. Thus COMPLETELY changing him.

He'd still have his views on things, but everything else would be different, and I didnt marry him because he was *feminine like*

So thats more of an explanation for me. Hope it helps.

Nic

[SIZE="3"]Some people prise the inner self above all, which is good. The thing to consider is when you change the outside soo much as in SRS, then the inner self is bound to change as well. They are two parts to a whole, so when one is altered, it affects the other. People who have an attraction to either sex are probably better equipped to deal with these changes than people who are hetro. I see this as the difference between the two main opinons here. Maybe it's just me (probably is) but this topic seems to be polarizing into two camps, lets not get too wrapped up that it becomes a division in our camp. Again it's probably just me over reacting.
:hugs: Dixie[/SIZE]

Very well stated Dixie, THAT was what I was tryin to say, but as soon as I went to type, it flew out the window lol :hugs:
Nic

Maybe some GG's are closer to being Bi than others - doesn't mean they are or even realise that this is a part of them, but it might mean that their minds are open to staying with a partner who goes through SRS as their own sexuality isn't totally 100% hetro, but there is a curiosity in them .... just a thought which hopefully makes sense. But this "bi" part of her, she might want to keep very private, which is her right, I guess.

And, to play this question the other way, would you as a man be open to being with another man physically? I realise that many of you have fantasies about being a female with a male, but what about the thought of you as male with male? Isn't that perhaps your version what we GG's are being asked to take on board? And I know some of you are bi anyway, so this perhaps isn't a question for you ...

To SAY you would stay and to ACTUALLY do it are two different things. Yes I would love to say that I have the capacity to love someone totally and for better or for worse but haveing SRS, taking hormones and developing breasts does change who you are and it changes who I am in relation to you.

I will say it again, for heterosexual women, WITHOUT A PENIS YOU REALLY ONLY HAVE FRIENDSHIP. Sexually, all you have to offer is mutual masterbation and that is only slightly satisfying.

Most of us are heterosexual and when we got into our relationships with our partners we expected to be the women with all that intails. We expected our hubby's to be the men and quite frankly they expected us to be women, and what all that intails like having the children for example. We can even accept your fantasizing about being a girl and play dressup with you or go out with you Occasionally and part of that acceptance hinges on the fact that at the end of the day and for MOST of our life together you are the man. When you decide to take hormones and move toward transition and SRS, you are no longer what you pitched to us and the person we fell in love with. Phillosophically it is nice to say "you are the same person inside" but infact you are not.

It is not necessary to make partners feel bad or guilty for not being able to stay when your partner changes not only the rules but his whole being on you. Non trans people have every right to love and happiness. One of the big fullfilling factors is sexuality and sexual satisfaction. One can't just become gay, it really isn't a choice. Not being able to stay does not make one a bad person nor does it make you weak. It is what it is. :hugs: Kitty

I still do not have my computer together so it is almost painful to post. But I could not skip this one.

I am absolutely floored with the many couples and GGs that would stay. This is truly admirable and shows how much love and commitment there is amongst many of us.

But I am not sure I agree with this undercurrent suggestion that somehow parting is any less noble or praiseworthy. Sometimes if you really love someone, you have to know when to let go. I would not expect my SO to go on.

She loves me as a man and as a girl. She loves me the way I am. She loves being a girl and romanced by her man.

We are all different and love and sex mean something slightly different to all of us.

I know it would be a dealbreaker for us. But then again, you don't know till it happens, to echo Stephenie "inversely".

Maybe sex is not so important to many. It is to my SO and I. We have a very active and fulfilling sex life in which I am male 50% of the time and the female 50% of the time. It works for both of us. I feel I have the most loving SO on the Planet and I just could not fault her for leaving if I underwent SRS. I also would not feel as if she loved me any less. The hardest thing in life you can do is leave someone you love very deeply, while acknowledging one cannot be happy together anymore.

And it is not just about sex, although I may be sounding this way. No, it is not just about the penis. A lot of emotional issues are also involved. We are both pretty complicated individuals.

I am free to do anything I want. I don't because of my own fears. Not because of my SO. But we have a clear understanding. No body modification. It took some negotiating to look into laser hair reduction even though my SO epilates and waxes and shaves me!

Michelia

My wife agrees, SRS would be a deal breaker. Don't know where we would go from there if I needed it. I can understand that stance. But luckily, that's not me. We're pretty comfortable with where we've gotten to and I don't need much more. Would enjoy some upgrades like laser for the arms, etc...but we'll see with time and maybe more money. Right now we're both really happy.

And Kim, I've seen you up close and you look really good. We all, especially the engineer minded, seem to be hyper-critical of ourselves. It's just another thing we have to work on. Accepting ourselves as much as we want others to accept us.

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Originally Posted by kittypw GG

To SAY you would stay and to ACTUALLY do it are two different things. Yes I would love to say that I have the capacity to love someone totally and for better or for worse but haveing SRS, taking hormones and developing breasts does change who you are and it changes who I am in relation to you.

I will say it again, for heterosexual women, WITHOUT A PENIS YOU REALLY ONLY HAVE FRIENDSHIP. Sexually, all you have to offer is mutual masterbation and that is only slightly satisfying.

Most of us are heterosexual and when we got into our relationships with our partners we expected to be the women with all that intails. We expected our hubby's to be the men and quite frankly they expected us to be women, and what all that intails like having the children for example. We can even accept your fantasizing about being a girl and play dressup with you or go out with you Occasionally and part of that acceptance hinges on the fact that at the end of the day and for MOST of our life together you are the man. When you decide to take hormones and move toward transition and SRS, you are no longer what you pitched to us and the person we fell in love with. Phillosophically it is nice to say "you are the same person inside" but infact you are not.

It is not necessary to make partners feel bad or guilty for not being able to stay when your partner changes not only the rules but his whole being on you. Non trans people have every right to love and happiness. One of the big fullfilling factors is sexuality and sexual satisfaction. One can't just become gay, it really isn't a choice. Not being able to stay does not make one a bad person nor does it make you weak. It is what it is. :hugs: Kitty

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that one decison was better than the other. I was really interested in the differing opinions (which is what I got) and the discussion of those opinions. No judgement here,


Louise.

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Originally Posted by Vicky Morgan

Not having SRS could also be the ultimate expression of love to a S.O.
The only difference is you are the one making the unselfish sacrafise.

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Spot on Vicky - just so!

Kim

I enjoy my time with my SO dressed or not but deep down I still need the man he is inside and out. Would love him forever but to be truthful I would say no I would not stay:sad:.

Im not sure people are entirely thinking about this correctly.

If someone was to meet me (now pre-op , or in the past before hrt) i really have not changed much at all , I would like to think i am STILL the same person only happier and content with life.

I admit some TS will put on a completly false shell to comply with society, and i feel bad for anyone that falls in love with someones representation of what a male/female should be. Everyone wants to be loved for there soul, not for there physical appearance or circumstancial actions.

My ex BF , was Bi and he would have 'preferred' i stayed pre-op, but it was more of a fetish thing with him. My current BF who is straight is totally supportive of SRS , but still loves me for who i am enough to be with me pre-op.

There are plastic and rubber objects designed to replace said missing parts , i really don't see what the big deal is with what genitals someone has.

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Originally Posted by DarleneHoney

as a Cd'er I would have to agree with Kittypw on nearly everything she said. The penis (the USE of it) DOES make all the difference to many women. There is way more to all of this than just 'if you have the love, the penis is irrelevant'. This is just not true for many SO's, and as people we need to respect that, especially for the SO's who are already making great concessions for us and adjustments to us out of love for us, or out of compassion. We need to be less self-absorbed and less focused on our own dressing needs and always remember there are TWO people in the relationship; and if the relationship is what we want to keep going, then BOTH people's true needs must be met. Otherwise it is not a true relationship. Face it, everybody, to most SO's the RELATIONSHIP is WAY more important than our dressing. They tolerate our dressing BECAUSE they care about the relationship. Screw up the relationship and you are right back where you were before - a guy with a need to dress and no one to share it with. To put it bluntly, if you don't nurture the relationship, you are stepping on your own dick.

We have to be fair to our partners and we have to understand that their needs are just as important as ours, because they ARE. If our partner needs a working penis and we take that penis out of the equation, what does that say about our taking care of HER needs?

We need to be fair and remember what made our partners care about the dressing in the first place.

Just my opinion.

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But as a CD you wouldnt be having SRS , so your SO might seem more important to you than someone who does not care about sexual function and who's only desire is to survive.

"What an interesting aside. Are you implying that post-op women are not women outside this forum?"

Kehleyr, I'm guessing the meaning that was being implied was that we are on a MTF forum, not an FTM forum.

It was my personal experience that sex, or more precisely, the lack of sex, was the deal-breaker for my ex, before I even started seriously considering transition. She needed much more than I could provide her with. It could be said that, when choosing to marry a younger woman, I chose poorly.
I also would think that the number of SO's who choose to stay during serious transition and after SRS is quite rare.

My GG said I could have either one or the other. I could either get breasts or lose something, but not both. But right now, I'm just happy CDing as much as possible.

I have no doubt that if I ever chose SRS (I wouldn't even consider it) my wife would support me all the way and would love me unconditionally. She just wouldn't want to be married to me anymore. We like to mix up the roles now and then, but once a certain line is crossed the deal would be off.

I don't have to wonder too hard how I would react if she came home one day and announced that she was on hormones and was growing a beard. Oh, and was scheduling an operation to remove her boobs and would soon be packing some heavy artillery. That might be fun for some Friday night, but not permanently. :eek: The deal would be off. I would still love and support her but I don't have to live with her to do that. I feel that way about my sisters now. I'm not saying that's the only right way to be. But, I'm sure that's how it would play out in my situation.

Interesting threat,

I think, the majority of members are CD and will stay CD.
I love the feeling and look of the clothes that I like. I'm still a man and enjoy being a man.

There would be no interest or wish for me to go such a path.

Doreen

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Originally Posted by Carin's Wife GG

. . . I also do believe that a certain point in a relationship gender ceases to be of importance. At least that is what has happened for Carin and I. Our investment in this connection is too deep and too long to not continue.

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I absolutely agree on a personal level, however it seems to me that with some (many?) SO's, that at the end of the day there are times when they want/need "their man" (or, IOW, they need their man to be a man). I respect that as I likewise also respect those who can accept a transitioning partner. I see how transitioning would be a dealbreaker with some -- it is one thing to be a mtf heterosexual CD and another to be TS. It is a shame that often the investment you speak of erodes in the face of change.

[SIZE="3"]Don't ya think that SRS is just the ultimate fantasy for most Cders? We all desire to experience all things female and I think most of us have thought about what it would be like to be female. It seems to me that Cding moves from one mile stone to another and I often wonder what is the next step? The desire is there at times to take it to the very limit. I agree that most relationships were begun as man and woman and the dynamics involved in a hetrosexual relationship are in place. these are the foundations of that relationship. to change into a woman changes the very foundations. Also
doesn't SRS raise a whole lot of other issues? What about sex? How does a post op TS experience sex? What happens to the drive to dress when testosterone is controlled etc. It is a wonder that the ggs will accept Crossdressing and all the difficulties that go with it. SRS presents problems time ten in my opinion:happy:

Jennifer[/SIZE]

was started. Really, for me (and I speak only for myself) my husband is not just his penis. In fact that piece of his anatomy is a very small part of what makes him/her who s/he is. Just as my genetalia mean very little to who I am as a person. I have no desire to loose my breasts but having had a low grade breast cancer in the past the reality of such happeneing is not too far from the mark. I KNOW carin would love me anyway. My breasts do not define ME. Likewise if for whatever reason, either medical or with HRT carin was not able to utilize her penis for what it was intended for I would love her just the same.

I go back to the soul. It is genderless. it is spiritual. There is no physicality to the soul. IMO, it is the soul of the person one loves. And if the soul is genderless then what does it matter what the actual anatomy is? I guess I do not identify myself by gender or sexual orientation nor do I identify others that way either. I think this has worked rather well for our family, both for the parents and the young adults we have. The young adults in particular are very secure in who they are regardless of their gender or sexual orientation. They are also very accepting of those who might present as *different* from the so called norm. All in all a good outcome I think.


Louise.

as My first post says

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Originally Posted by jess(SO)

Louise,
I may be a lightwight but hormones and SRS are my dealbreakers ......... just got no staying power I guess:sad:

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and I stand by that ........... in the first place I knew absolutely nothing about my partners cding in the beginning ......... and the more I go on and read and learn and listen, the more it appears that unless you agree to the full deal of whatever the cdr decides, then it seems you are deemed to be, unaccepting, controlling, vindictive, not truely in love with your partner:straightface:

I fell in love with a Man, am willing to explore the fem side of him with him, but it seems that a hetrosexual female gets little or no kudos for being honest about her dealbreakers ............. before anybody gets upset over my opinion [SIZE="4"]it is just my0.02[/SIZE]

each person deals with this issue in their own best way at any given point in time. I would never think that, because a wife or SO was unaccepting, they were that way because they are a *bad person*. Each of us gets to where we are going in our own way and in our own time. some of us reach different destinations. Some of us reach destinations we had never planned on getting to. Others get off the train and make a connection that gets them to their original planned destination.

I also have to add, to my own shame and in the midst of my own confusion, I WAS controlling and unaccepting. I did not show my partner unconditonal love during that time. I don't think that made or makes be a bad person, just a human being with all the given frailties a human being brings with them to this world.

And I am STILL trying to figure out where the heck *I* am going!


Louise.