Who here hates hiding

it would be great to just be my self. but for work i would have to quit if "found out there" very macho world.
not sure about some friends, i would say maybe...but they would just find ways to be "busy".
not many friends so if i did loose them it would be just so little, it would be workable.
but were i live..not so sure as i live in a small community, and very conservative. not so sure if they would like a alt/different life style living next door.but even then i only see them once a month anyhow (working hrs).
no wife or so.
but i would not say i am truly in a closet, i do get out to some socials (pending work), and i was even in a parade this year seen by many thousands maybe even on tv. yes in a dress. and i do some yard work in-fem.

Loni

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Originally Posted by Duana

All those hiding in the closet, by their own admission, wish they didn't have to.

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Originally Posted by Duana

I "understand" closeted CDs are in the grips of fear, whether you do or not.

I know you'd be happier if you got out of the closet. I want you all to be as happy as I am.

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The very first line is your jumping point to the rest of your thoughts and it is patently wrong. There are many people here that have stated that they have **zero** desire to go out. If they are happy with their situation, then the remainder of your assumptions (not understandings) are then incorrect.

Duana, it is good to know that everyone here is different. You just can't wrap everyone up in one nice little package and say "X" applies to everyone. What we do need to do is listen to each other and through that listening, understand what is going on in each other's life. That listening is the only way we can give support (and saying someone doesn't have balls, sack, or whatever hardly qualifies as support; sorry).

Sue (a person who does get out often but believes she understands the ones who don't)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

That said, I think the desire to hide is directly proportional to the degree of gender dysphoria that a TG experiences.

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I think you're WWWWAAAAAYYYY off base here. If you wander off the crossdresser forum reservation sometimes, you might discover that there are other outlets for gender dysphoria besides crossdressing. There are many people, for example, that consider themselves TS but never crossdress and won't consider transition. There are people that crossdress all the time but feel no real gender dysphoria. Really, for any level of gender dysphoria, your desire to present publically as the "other" gender is only proportional to the importance you place on how others see you.

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Originally Posted by LilSissyStevie

I think you're WWWWAAAAAYYYY off base here. If you wander off the crossdresser forum reservation sometimes, you might discover that there are other outlets for gender dysphoria besides crossdressing. There are many people, for example, that consider themselves TS but never crossdress and won't consider transition. There are people that crossdress all the time but feel no real gender dysphoria. Really, for any level of gender dysphoria, your desire to present publically as the "other" gender is only proportional to the importance you place on how others see you.

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I'm speaking generally, not about the exceptions. If most TSs don't do anything to relieve their GID, that's news to me.

It's pretty simple, really. The greater the need to dress, the less willing that someone will be to hide. What do you think forces most CDers out of their closets? :D The need to be seen and the ability to stop caring what others think is all a part of it.

Yeah. I hate to get "undressed," too. And hiding my dirty undies. And drying my undies 'cause I don't put 'em in the dryer. Sometimes, this is a challenge.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I'm speaking generally, not about the exceptions. If most TSs don't do anything to relieve their GID, that's news to me.

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I didn't say that. I said that many don't crossdress or transition and there is no way to know who is the exception and who isn't. How many suffer silently for each that is out and about? There are other ways to relieve GID and not all of them are positive. Many find relief in writing, for instance, but some find relief in alcohol or heroin. Sometimes a bullet to the brain brings relief. But not everybody finds relief in crossdressing. For some the horror of being seen, even in their own mirror, as a man in a dress is worse than just being seen as a man.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

It's pretty simple, really. The greater the need to dress, the less willing that someone will be to hide. What do you think forces most CDers out of their closets? :D The need to be seen and the ability to stop caring what others think is all a part of it.

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The need to dress and be seen publicly are not the same thing as gender dysphoria and certainly not proportional.

OK, LilSissyStevie, maybe you and I are talking about different things. What do you think gender dysphoria is, and why do you think that CDers who do present full on femme with breast forms, makeup, etc, and whose goal it is to blend among other women and be treated like one aren't gender dysphoric to some degree? I'm not talking about the people who do nothing more than wear cute sandals and nail polish, or who are happy going out looking like guys who wear femme skirts or jeans, or who just underdress, etc.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. :)

I disagree that hiding is a fear based thing. Some of us are not in a situation where we can maintain a functional life and tell our employer/family. It's sad but it's true that coming out to family/work can often lead to a loss of those parts of your life in certain situations. I never told anyone at my job until I was sure that doing so wouldn't result in me being fired. My family found out on their own.

One thing you should consider Pythos, is that some of the things your mother has to say may come from an age appropriate perspective. I'm 26 and get comments from my boss occasionally telling me to dress more my age. I tend to think of "more my age" as BORING! But that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn26

I disagree that hiding is a fear based thing. I never told anyone at my job until I was sure that doing so wouldn't result in me being fired.

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So what would you call that, if not a fear of losing your job?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

My one big issue with your points though, is that you put down others who haven't constructed their lives like you have, or who don't live in the same social milieu as you do, who have different families including children than you do. It's the height of arrogance, I think, to believe that what works for you should also work for everyone else.

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Reine,

What is perceived as a put down, is really a fact. Yes, I could say it less caustically and I'll try to do that. Guts, balls, sack etc are really just another way of saying "lack of courage". As a former copywriter, I prefer to use language which evokes visceral imagery; words which strike at the heart and generate emotion. It makes for a more interesting discussion. If my words upset, it is probably because the arrow has found its mark.

Ignoring facts does not make them any less true. The only point I'm really trying to make is, hiding behavior is fear-based. What gets me riled is when people post rationalizations claiming its not fear but something else. That is intellectually dishonest. I proved its fear-based. You know it is fear-based. They know its fear-based.

So quit trying to rationalize it and just say, "I'm scared to go out because I'm afraid of what might happen if (my boss, my neighbors, my clients, etc) know about me."

As I said in an earlier post, we're ALL afraid. I'm afraid too. But I admit it.

Fear is an interesting concept isn't it? Some would hold that it is so black and white and others less so. I guess all the jews hiding from the Nazis in occupied Europe should have shown less fear and stood up for their rights? I am not even beginning to say that this is a direct comparison of sutuations, bit i do know that some CDs have been socially abused because they were open and honest and this site has had reports of open and violent physical abuse.

In general I have always held by the idea that we hate (and kill) what we fear. I do not fear being me as a person... I fear the consequences of other people's inadequacies, inability or refusal to accept who I am... These are things over which I may have some influence and there are movements to try and exercise this democratic freedom of ours, but there are others over which we do not stand a chance. If you do not believe this, I can tell with open honesty, it is because you haven't experienced it... yet.

The stronger willed of us like Nigella may wish to beat me up for even suggesting such a thing... but fear is fear... and real fear is terror. And I haven't met anyone yet who has experienced terror who is not fearful...

So... I wish?

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Originally Posted by Sandra

So what would you call that, if not a fear of losing your job?

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Fear of not being able to feed yourself is very different than fear of being ridiculed. Those that claim cders hide out of fear are mostly claiming they're scared of the reactions of others, when in reality a lot of adult cding males hide because it would cost them their job and family. Which is what Pythos was getting at.

You probably have never had to deal with something that I've dubbed "man cage syndrome". You can't change because life won't let you (changing will mean not eating). You aren't happy to stay the same because your mind won't let you (you cringe at not being how you want to be). It can quickly digress into feeling like you're stuck in a cage. The only way to get rid of it, if you've truly got "it" is to rearrange your life slowly and then make the changes. Sacrifices have to be made.

I had to deal with this after a few of my close friends found a myspace I had years ago, before myspace was a mainstream site. I was about 17 and about to leave home. I was stuck living as a man and hiding from my employer, yet everyone that mattered to me already knew about it. Getting fired isn't always a "fear", it can be a reality to some. A sacrifice that they can't just shrug off.

Kaz, sorry to disappoint you, but I agree with you :tongueout:

I did not come out when I really wanted to, not because I was afraid for myself, but for Sandra and my daughter and how my GID would affect them. As a family unit we worked on those fears and eventually overcame them.

My biggest gripe is not those who hide, by choice in the closet, it is there right, but those who hide in the closet but bemoan that society will not accept them. History shows that there are people like me who do not accept that we have to do things that society says we should. At the same time there are those who hide behind people like me and do nothing but wait for the coast to clear.

So no I do not blame anyone who wishes to keep this side of their lives hidden away, I fully support them, although some of my posts may not have been clear on this, I cannot and will not give my support to those who wish to ride on the back of others to gain their own freedom. It is in their hands, they must overcome their own fears.

I hate the fact that I have to hide who I am from those that know me, but I don't have to hide from strangers. Why is this? we hide from the people that we most want to spend time with in a daily basis but can go out in public and be around people we don't know.

We should reverse this somehow.
As far as hiding from people at work, I tend to blend, I have worn eyeliner, mascara, (lightly applied but noticeable) Eyebrow pencil, I am shaved so I have smooth legs and arms I pluck my brows, I wear womens socks, (and my feet sweat less) although this is not the reason I choose to wear them. I paint my nails in a clear or pale color. I wore womens shorts to work actually today and I underdress all the time, So if they cant tell ( i dont know why)

Actually the only item of clothing that I wore that wasnt womens was my tshirt and my walking shoes

Oh and I wear small hoop earrings

I hate hiding so I put out as many hints so that if and when they find out they are not totally shocked, I should be residing somewhere in the back of their mind,
Hmmmm he is a nice guy but there is just something about him that seems off, but he is really a noce guy.

Keri

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Originally Posted by Duana

Guts, balls, sack etc are really just another way of saying "lack of courage".

So quit trying to rationalize it and just say, "I'm scared to go out because I'm afraid of what might happen if (my boss, my neighbors, my clients, etc) know about me."

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I'll add to this:

"I'm scared to go out because I don't want to get fired."
"I'm scared to go out because I don't want to be the brunt of gossip in the neighborhood and stop being invited to the block parties."
"I'm scared to go out because I don't want people to think I'm weird, and begin to feel uncomfortable around me."
"I'm scared to go out because I don't want my little girls' friends mothers to prevent their daughters from coming to my house because they think I'm a pervert."
"I'm scared to go out because my wife doesn't want to be the brunt of local gossip and also be excluded from the neighborhood ladies' get togethers."

Now. Replace the "scared to go out", with "I choose to not go out because the CDing is not THAT important to me that I choose IT above the other very real consequences in my life".

Like I said earlier, not everyone has the same degree of gender dysphoria that will make it a necessity to be who they are in public.

If I were TS and it was a choice of losing my sanity over losing other things, I'd choose my sanity.

... and yes, not every person will suffer all the losses. The world has pockets of acceptance. There are also many pockets of ignorance.

To all the people who say they hate to hide, they should gather their courage in their hands and go out and be themselves. It is a question of preserving their sanity.

But there are also many people who do not resent keeping it private, simply because the need to go out and be seen isn't as great.

For those that don't understand what gender dysphoria is, please take a look at this link.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-...efinition.aspx

Fear can be overcome.

I got over the fear of wearing skirts in public, because it was what I wanted to do. Same with wearing makeup (it is what I like, and is what a lot of women do).

Same with underdressing. A lot of members here always wear panties, as no one will know. A bra is different as it is more easily seen. The desire for me to wear a bra in public outweighs any potential negative comments. I wear a bra and panties because they are both standard women's underwear.

Reine, would you regard both transsexuals and crossdressers to fall within the gender dysphoria category?

Myself, I have no desire AT ALL to change my physical sex. I am happy as a male. It is just that I like to present as a woman.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

That said, I think the desire to hide is directly proportional to the degree of gender dysphoria that a TG experiences. (see note below).

In other words, a CD who is happy switching back and forth, who is otherwise not unhappy in male mode, will not resent keeping the dressing private from certain family members, friends, and coworkers, even though he needs to dress on a regular basis. He will find a way to balance it all.


Whereas a CD who suffers gender dysphoria to a greater degree, and who perhaps questions whether or not he is really a CD, will resent the hiding more, as will all the people who say they would live full time in a flash if they could but who may not not consider themselves to be TS. I don't know what to make of those who just wish to present in a feminine manner all the time and who don't think of themselves as suffering gender dysphoria. Perhaps they like to use a language all their own.


And of course TSs who do suffer full gender dysphoria simply reach a point where they can no longer present in guy mode, period.

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Reine, wouldn't the desire to hide be INVERSELY (not directly) proportional to the degree of gender dysphoria?

Nicole, to-may-to, to-mah-to. lol :hugs:

I'm taking the word "degree" to go either way, up or down. The greater the desire to be seen as a woman and treated like one, the greater the desire to come out of the closet. And vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Emma England

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-...efinition.aspx

Reine, would you regard both transsexuals and crossdressers to fall within the gender dysphoria category?

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Emma the definition of gender dysphoria you provide in your link is not accurate. It assumes a sharp divide: ranssexuals have gender dysphoria, yet crossdressers don't, because they dress for fantasy or fetish reasons. If you read the comments at the bottom of this article, several people object to their definition and explain that gender ID is NOT binary. Professionals in the field also say the same thing.

I've also developed a sense through my participation in this forum there are CDs who do dress for deeper reasons than fantasy or fetish. They may see themselves as being a blend of both genders, with one or the other gender at the forefront on any given day. Maybe you could define this as an integrated CD. Anyway, this leads me to believe there is a sliding scale for gender dysphoria, just like anything else.

So in answer to your question, yes I do believe that some people who identify as CDs and who do not feel they are TS since they also embrace their male gender ID, can also experience a degree of gender dysphoria, especially if they dress to be seen and treated as women. It's all a question of motive, of course. Some such people might dress for a kick, but I'm guessing if the motive is strictly fantasy or fun yet there is little or no sexual component to it, there wouldn't be a such a deep need to present as a female?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

OK, LilSissyStevie, maybe you and I are talking about different things. What do you think gender dysphoria is, and why do you think that CDers who do present full on femme with breast forms, makeup, etc, and whose goal it is to blend among other women and be treated like one aren't gender dysphoric to some degree? I'm not talking about the people who do nothing more than wear cute sandals and nail polish, or who are happy going out looking like guys who wear femme skirts or jeans, or who just underdress, etc.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. :)

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My point is that you simply cannot measure a persons gender dysphoria by the frequency of their crossdressing, the extent of it (use of prosthetics, etc.) or whether they crossdress at all. I agree that the more dysphoric a person is, the greater their tendency to act on it. But the action and the amount of action that someone takes is highly individual. It's just like any other kind of pain; some people act like they are going to die and take extreme measures at the slightest bit of discomfort and others can take a tremendous amount of pain before doing anything to relieve it. Some gender dysphorics crossdress, some live out a femme life through online role playing games, some join various online forums using a femme identity, some write fiction and live through their characters, some take HRT but don't crossdress, some do nothing but hurt, or some combination and so on. On the other hand, I read on these forums about people that dress frequently and have a full femme social life, yet claim to love being a guy just as much. So does the person living 24/7 as a female have more inate dysphoria that than someone else that daydreams about it but never takes any action? I don't know. I guess the short answer is, you can't judge a book by it's cover.

I hate hiding because I don't get to dress up that much. However I have been wearing everything fem for three weeks now. It's active wear and some how my wive has not gone off on me. My toemails have been painted a clear opal and the wife has told me twice to get it off. They are still painted. My lesbion neighbor was over saturday and she says you toenails are painted. My wive seemed more embarassed than me. The neighbor says nothing wrong with that as woman wear paints now don't they. I had my hoop earings in too. Yesterday I had my actice wear on and the neighbor says what you got on. My wive defends the top and all. My wive will go off on me but has been okay with this look. I kuv it because I can create cleavage and nothing is said. Go figure!!!! When I think she is starting to accept she will take 180 degree turn. It is so confusing.

It is obvious to all of us that in this forum we focus on our transgenderedness and all its consequences. There is no doubt that those consequences affect every aspect of our lives. The current topic of what I'll call "openness" is an interesting one in that it has such a narrow focus. Let me explain:

One of the hallmarks of a worldly/civilized individual is a quality called "discression". Discression requires an understanding of surroundings and situations, followed by actions taken within that understanding. If we have a colleague who is a real dork, it is likely that, to maintain a stable working relationship, it would be unlikely that we would speak about his/her less than civilized behaviour directly, but might choose to be "discrete". Likewise, if I would happen to enjoy "off-color" jokes, I might be "discrete" about when and to whom I tell them.

In view of the current discussion, some might equate discression to fear. I do not. Discression implies thoughtful action while fear implies a more irrational behaviour (knee-jerk reaction?). I'm never impressed with those idividuals who "wear their emotions on their sleeves"; few people are. I am impressed with those who assess their surroundings and make logical decisions about their actions.

The decisions we make about our transgenderd selves are important decisions, no doubt. However, they can be processed in the same way that we process any other important life decision. Do we need to like some of those decisions? No we don't.

So, my dear Pythos, in this light, maybe I can rephrase your question to be: "Who here finds themselves needing to make decisions about their transgenderedness that they wish they didn't have to make?"

The answer would be: everyone!

:)

tina

I used to hide and now I am out of the closet due to a series of coincidences. I can understand a person being in the closet because they probably have others in their families or in their living circumstances or on their jobs who would really fry if they found out. Yet being out is actually less scary. So if there's a way to go about it without losing your job or getting kicked out of your house,you might find being out is more fun.