How can you be a crossdresser if you’re transgendered?

Freddy, you sure give me a lot to think about.

I do buy your surface premise. Yes, if she looks female, smells female, identifies as female, then she's not really crossdressing anymore. But let's not kick them out of the club, some of them are really cool, and lots of fun to talk to.

Now, like you, I regularly trans-vest. It's fun and it feels good. Also, I like to be pretty.
But, I would also propose that we do transgender.

Wait...hear me out, I read all of yours.

I don't see transgender as an all-or-nothing proposition. Let's say there are degrees, and we go in for a dip from time to time. This is nothing sexual. I'm talking from an emotional point of view.

I have many women in my life, and I just can't often grab an understanding of their way of thinking. Where as we are very logical, systematic thinkers, their thoughts have a strong emotional basis, or even root. I would like to understand this or at least get a glimpse. So I dress the part, and try to gain some of this understanding.

I could go on and on with this, it seemed very important to us back in college. Now, I don't really need to change the world, I just want to sit down and chat with my girls, and sometimes understand where they are coming from.

So for now I dress the woman, I feel the woman, I be the woman. Sometimes, I trans-gender.
Michelle

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Almostalady, sorry ... just repeating what I've read. :sad:

Maybe not everyone goes through this and maybe this has to do with the severity of gender dysphoria.

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Its ok, I am hoping it doesn't get worse. So far I am ok with sometimes being feminine, but it is scary if it usually excalates. Maybe not for me. I hope.

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Originally Posted by Marleena

Freddy some information from an expert in the field Ann Vitale, below.

Also keep in mind that in the MTF category CDer's are the majority here. You don't have to feel abandoned here.

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CATEGORY 3. Crossdressing vs Transsexualism



1. What is difference between a male cross dresser and a man wanting to be a woman?

I have never met a genetic male who has gone on to transition to the female gender role that did not start out as a cross dresser. However, it does not mean that every genetic male that cross dresses will go on to transition. Keep in mind that cross dressing is a temporary way for a genetic male to experience femaleness. For some genetic males that short period of experiencing the feminine complements their sense of being male. They may make some minor modifications of their body to enhance their feminine appearance when dressed such as beard and body hair removal but they have no difficulty holding on to their core sense of being male.

Genetic males who eventually go on to transition permanently to the female gender role (transsexuals) on the other hand, cross dress to ease gender expression deprivation. Dressing is serious business for these individuals. It is only during these cross dressing periods that they can find a sense of wholeness. Unlike the cross dresser described above, transsexuals have little or no love for their alienated sense of masculinity and they are more then willing to give up its influence on their lives via hormones and surgery.

7. What is the difference between someone who identifies as "transgender" and someone who identifies as "transsexual"?
The term "transgender" was coined by Dr. Virginia Prince in the mid 1970's to differentiate those individuals who wanted to live in the opposite gender role without surgery from those that wanted surgery. Those individuals who wish or have had sex reassignment surgery were then and still are referred to as transsexuals. However, over the years the term "Transgender" has been modified through popular usage to be an umbrella term covering everyone who has some propensity to spend at least some time expressing themselves in the gender role opposite of that to which they have been assigned.

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8. Is the term "transsexual" politically correct, why or why not? And when did this change take place?
The term "transsexual" is not only politically correct it is the preferred term to be used in referring to individuals who use hormonal and surgical means to permanently alter their appearance to match their internal sense of gender.

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Thanks Marleena! That's a more accurate statement of what I was referring to :)

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Originally Posted by JadeEmber

Thanks Marleena! That's a more accurate statement of what I was referring to :)

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It's basically what you've said along with Reine and some of the others. I needed to touch on the TS side of things too for clarity here.:)

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Originally Posted by almostalady

I think you got it wrong. It is not changing back and forth when you break down the word. It is change of one to the other, not going back and forth although it can mean going back in forth it is not necessarily so. So this definition easily fits either crossdressers or transexuals.

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Yeah, I was trying too hard to understand Freddie's reasoning in the first post explaining transgender by breaking the word up and redefining it. Transgender in my usage has always been the "umbrella" definition which includes most all of us here except cisgender folks.

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Originally Posted by TeresaL

Yeah, I was trying too hard to understand Freddie's reasoning in the first post explaining transgender by breaking the word up and redefining it. Transgender in my usage has always been the "umbrella" definition which includes most all of us here except cisgender folks.

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My understanding is the same as Teresa's (and many others'), but labels are what we make of them, so there's really no right or wrong answers. For me personally, I think i understand where Freddie is coming from, because I definitely consider myself TG, and I've long questioned whether I'm TS, but I've never felt totally comfortable referring to myself as a CD. I know that CDing is, for many, a term that includes more than simply wearing women's clothes, but I've always felt that it fails to really capture my situation. On the other hand, I don't mind others calling me a CD, and the frequency/proficiency/depth of my experiences as Lauren seem pretty close to those of many CDs, so maybe that's what I am. Who knows? :)

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Originally Posted by lauren_m

... but labels are what we make of them, so there's really no right or wrong answers.

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Ditto, this does appear to be another label thread.

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Originally Posted by lauren_m

... I definitely consider myself TG, and I've long questioned whether I'm TS, but I've never felt totally comfortable referring to myself as a CD.

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I as well question where where I fit in, but can come into close approximation with the Benjamin/Kensey (transgender?) contingency chart. I'm about the third or fourth on the scale. I think the scale is numbered up to six or seven, with levels of our (TG?) proclivity.

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Originally Posted by lauren_m

On the other hand, I don't mind others calling me a CD, and the frequency/proficiency/depth of my experiences as Lauren seem pretty close to those of many CDs, so maybe that's what I am. Who knows? :)

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I don't know either, but wish someone would get settled in with this new label and pass the word on to all the professionals and the congregation so that our club can be renamed. :daydreaming:

Yep! It is just a label.

This discussion will pop up occasionally, and always without any resolution. That's because we can't agree on the definition of a crossdresser, and we can't agree on the definition of transgendered. When you (anybody) say transgender, you mean one thing and I hear another. And vice versa. It's hopeless until we begin the discussion with definitions, for the purpose of the discussion.

Nicole is right about people not accepting the definitions. It does not help that the original poster appears to want to redefine words to his own ends.

Yes. M If. I sometimes dressed as woman and sometimes man.

I am a TG then by definition. I didn't care for the term cross dresser anyway. Seemed like it marginalized people too closely. I feel like a woman even when without the clothing, make up, wigs, etc.

I don't understand this thread. If you crossdress, how can you NOT be transgender? Crossdressing is a transgender act.

I don't think splitting hairs over definitions makes much sense, to be honest.

We are, most of us, swimming upstream in one form or another, against both social mores and genetics. What you call the struggle is sort of irrelevant compared to the struggle itself.

Labels,definition,books,the internet,what people say..I follow none of it.

I've had conversations with a few TS girls that turned out pretty brutal. Going as far as wanting to fight me because I just believe something different.

Human beings have a desire to feel special. What they do needs to feel important and unique. Some expect to be held at a higher standard over those who have not accomplished as much.In some conversation the meaning of TS can be very one sided. Their definition cannot be challenged and you are just wrong or fake. Having a opinion is hard. For some it's probably difficult to imagine that somebody could find peace in life without a jump to hormones.That can't be true to them.They just did all this stuff and that's the only way.

I always believed that you are who you are.Body modification and taking something doesn't make you who you are inside.Why would anybody do any of that if you weren't TS to begin with.Then there are those who transitioned to find out it wasn't the best choice for them. Were they real in the eyes of the group because they were following along at the time?

Reality is only an illusion.

Listen to all.Follow none.

Hmmm, now why does this all seem so simple to me?

1) I have a definate feminine side but was born male, so I do cross the gender line and am, thus, transgendered.

2) I cover my male body in feminine attire, to the nines most of the time, and am, thus, a cross-dresser.

Works for me.

Crossdressing is a behavior, being transgendered is not. Regardless of what I am wearing, I feel transgendered. So, when I put on my male attire, I present as a male to the world, and when I put on my female attire, I present fully and want to be treated as I am presenting....female....so, the clothes are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. I get absolutely zero stimulation from silky fabrics and frankly, find bras to be a pain in the necessary ass to help me create who I feel I am on the inside. The problem with all of these labels is that they are mainly limiting, not defining. Based on my feelings, some CDs think I am TS; based on my behavior, some TSs lump me with being a CD.

Gender dysphoria is a complex internal state of being, and thus, the manifestation of and creation of the female persona is also complex and moves right along a continuum of sort. Some of us need to be on HRT, some of us live part time, full time, partly dress, fully dress, go out, stay private, and on and on and on. Since crossdressing, per se, is viewed very negatively in our culture by natal males, it is no wonder we can't make sense of who we are, how we got here and what we need to do about it. Thank goodness for places like this where we can share our feelings, behaviors, motives and desires.

Toss away the labels and simply explore who you are and what your needs and wants are. Peace....Melissa.

I enjoy reading your posts Freddy, and you ask some really interesting questions. I do feel as though a lot of the questions you pose don't have a definitive answer, and thus the replies will only express people's opinions, as opposed to facts. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

But if we are to conclude anything, it's that none of us, outside of our own opinions, don't really have a clue. We just go about our business, doing what makes us happy, without much thought needed for the whys and what fors, or with any real intent to get to the bottom of our persona and truly understand what it's really all about. Sure, we may broach the subject every now and again, we may even try to rationalise it, but ultimately to no prevail. Which is hardly surprising all said and done, because we're all using labels that others have bestowed upon us. Labels that at their core are intent on bracketing us within a certain group. Yet the truth is that we're just as different from one another as anyone/everyone else is. There may be commonality - i.e. our dressing, but take two men, both of whom like to wear denim shirts for example, and probe a little deeper and you'll find two people of different ideologies, different cultural backgrounds, different religious and political beliefs, in short, two different people.

I've no more in common with any other member of this site as I do with any stranger in the street. Why does the next man/woman vote for a certain political party? Is it because they are the same as me? No, it isn't. Just as why another man has different reasons for wanting to wear what is traditionally regarded as female attire to what my reasons are.

So, to get back to, and to address your question - it's just a label. If you're really transgendered then of course you can still crossdress. Crossdressing is an external expression of what lies within. Presenting oneself externally with fashion that is traditionally associated to a gender that is opposite to our external identity. Transgender, in this respect, is exactly the same. The difference being the extent in which one embraces it, the level one needs to take it to. A crossdresser will be happy presenting themselves as a woman while feeling content within a man's body. A transexual however will never be content with their birth gender and so a further change will be sought.

But the answer to your question, for you, lies only within you. But the bottom line, for me, is in asking your question you're merely pandering to labels. And that can be restrictive and unhealthy. I'm a man. I'm a gay man. I'm a crossdresser. But that's not all I am. I'm a person, an individual, and never will I allow myself to be personified by labels that have been created by others in a deep-rooted need to put individuals into brackets.

Frédérique thanks for your original thesis statement. I think what you have expressed sums up my attitude as well. I like to dress, but am perfectly happy with my male gender.

I like the analogy of a train or bus with all its stops. This is my stop coming up here, I recognize someone else may be a bit further along and some may take the train all the way to end and become a woman once they reach that point. I support my fellow riders with their journey.

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Originally Posted by jenni_xx

I enjoy reading your posts Freddy, and you ask some really interesting questions. I do feel as though a lot of the questions you pose don't have a definitive answer, and thus the replies will only express people's opinions, as opposed to facts. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

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I field a lot of expressed opinions; in fact I sometimes have to retreat to my dollhouse of solitude for recovery! I think we’re trying to discuss topics that don’t really have any true facts – can feelings lead to facts, or can facts even exist in this forest of feelings? I like this arena of the human soul and the fact that we’re doing something that cannot be pinned down one way or another. It makes us, the crossdressers, happy (to a certain degree), but it causes consternation for nearly everyone else. These questions pop into my wig-covered head whether I want them to or not, so I bring them here...

Thanks for making the effort to read my posts – I appreciate it...:)