I don't know that I feel more 'left out' than usual, but I will say this.
I'm used to getting a certain kind of 'look' from people in my normal mode of girl-jeans, pinks, painted nails, floufy hair and such. Since the VF article with Ms Jenner, that look has changed a bit. It isn't quite as aggressive or hateful as I had become accustomed to seeing. I'm seeing gears turning behind those eyes now.
It isn't acceptance, but it isn't the outright rejection I have come to expect.
<3
- MM
I have to agree with a lot of the comments that being "left out" may not be quite accurate as to how I feel about the recent transgender discussion. Personally, I am glad that the discussion is going on with the media et al recognizing that yes, there are people who choose or feel more comfortable presenting as a member of their opposite birth gender and telling the world "That's OK". But so far the discussion seems to be rather shallow and perhaps is creating a new stereotype and that is that transgender people want to constantly live as a member of the opposite gender - maybe with or without SRS. There is little or no conversation about gender fluid persons who cross between male and female mode but primarily retain the identity of their birth gender.
So now is the new stereotype of someone who is transgender a boy who is now a girl? (or vice versa) And presumably the boy who is now a girl likes all girly things? And has abandoned all boy things? And presumably does that "girl" like male partners as most girls do?
Bottom line, without some deeper public discussion, I'm not sure we are seeing a big step forward yet - and potentially a step backward - back to the presumption that we are all gay.
I wouldn't say I feel left out, but I do wish there were more prominent crossdresser role models. I think the big thing about Caitlyn coming out is that she was first famous for something other than being trans. It would be great to have a crossdresser do the same thing. And, I don't count Eddie Izzard because Eddie was always known as a crossdresser. The Buzz Bissinger story is cool, but honestly, I had never heard of him before, even though I know of "Friday Night Lights." And really, can you say Jaden Smith is famous? If not for his dad, he'd be no more famous than me. That said, I think it's great that he's going out there and rocking his dresses.
Why do I think having a public figure come out is important? Because that shows that anyone could be trans. Here's a person that you know and love, and they've been carrying around this heavy secret for a long time. If the community can see such a person weather the coming out process, then more of them feel confident in coming out, and then everything snowballs. I am hoping that Caitlyn's coming out will have a similar impact as to when Ellen came out as lesbian. Obviously, Ellen wasn't the first public lesbian, but she had a hit TV show and then risked her reputation by coming out. That was a real turning point in gay visibility and gay rights. Likewise there are many well-known transwomen before Caitlyn, but none of them were as equally famous for something else prior to coming out. As far as the public is concerned, Laverne Cox was always a transwoman, and even though Lana Wachowski was famous for "The Matrix" before coming out, due to her very private life, no one really knew who she was.
I am happy for Caitlyn and I do think that ultimately this attention to trans issues will help crossdressers more than hurt them. We crossdressers should recognize that our decision to stay closeted is ultimately what works against us. Our ability to present as cisgender is both a blessing and a curse. Many of us can spend our entire lives without anyone being the wiser, but that possibility of "safety" means no one will ever know the real us. Caitlyn has made me reevaluate whether I should expand the circle of cisgender friends who I am out to. One day, I'd like to be just be out to all who know me, but I'm not brave enough for that yet. Perhaps as more braver transpeople step forward, I'll finally feel comfortable enough to proudly stand beside them. In the meantime, I'll work behind the scenes, pretending to be a mere LGBT ally, as opposed to a member of the community myself.
In a way I believe Caitlyn Jenner and the attention on other celebrity TS folk will do some of the same thing that Facebook did with their 50+ gender identity options. With all but the hard core haters, it spreads the idea of gender so wide that it becomes irrelevant. As the options appear to expand daily and familiarity with them becomes common knowledge there is not single point at which to strike. It becomes more difficult for someone to propose an anti- Gay, TS, TG, Gender Non-conforming, Asexual, Gender Fluid, Intersex, Crossdresser, etc. etc. bill or action. The target becomes much bigger than the group proposing it.
Do I feel left out? Not really left out, but on the sidelines waiting for the coach to send me in.
Left out? Not at all. Frustrated with the media's stupidly simple definition of transgender? Absolutely. I recently told several important people in my life that I was transgendered who crossdresses. Thanks to the media, the first question out of their mouths is, "So when are you getting the operation?".
While Jenner has generated a ton of conversation, thanks to the insatiable media and the wide range of comments on media stories, I doubt if anyone has changed their attitudes about or increased their knowledge of transgenderism. Some of the comments I have read about Jenner are remarkably vicious and ignorant and probably based on fear -- of what I am not sure. To some extent CDs are always going to be left out, misunderstood and ridiculed, at least by some. Our challenge is to be who and what we are anyway, happily, fearlessly, shamelessly. If we feel left out, it's because we're looking for acceptance in the wrong places.
@adrienner99
I agree and disagree that Jenner has not changed the minds of others on transgenderism. It honestly depends on a lot of factors. At my TG support group last night, the entire hour and a half was focused on Caitlyn Jenner's coming out.
- I know of someone in my group who said that they saw a bunch of guys finding a transgender woman to be attractive.
- When I came out to this 80-year-old man last fall, he was completely opposed to this. Now that he has seen Caitlyn Jenner, he left me a message about it and is probably a bit more open to discussing TG issues, being aware of TG, and possibly coming around to acceptance. I won't know for sure. I've been recovering slowly from bronchitis since mid-April so I haven't returned his call yet. I do plan on calling him once my voice recovers a bit.
- I know several people in my group who said they had similar experiences with people who were unknowledgeable of TG learning more about us, or friends or family members who are coming around towards acceptance as a result of Caitlyn Jenner
Not everyone however will react so positively. There are three groups of people who really hate us.
1. Religious fundamentalists. Most of these people have been brainwashed by their churches and will continue to be brainwashed and are just not open to any idea that goes against their religious beliefs. This even has an effect on transpeople who were raised in such backgrounds - many of them have high amounts of internalized transphobia and had a much more difficult time coming out to themselves because of seeing themselves as abominations.
2. TERFS. These people are potentially worse, because unlike people who grew up in religious fundamentalist homes who were brainwashed, most of these people were not raised in TERF families, but rather on their own accord chose to be this way, for whatever reasons unknown. I don't know of any TERFS personally so I don't really have any insight into how they think, but my guess is they're so riled up about how bad men are that they will only see transwomen as perverted men who invade women's spaces, and transmen as women who betrayed the call of womanhood to attempt to achieve male privilege.
3. People who are too smart for their own good. In AA, we are taught that you can never be too dumb for recovery, but some people are too smart, and sadly some of these kind of people will never recover from alcoholism. I personally know of people like this both in and out of AA. Although I haven't met any in AA who have openly opposed my transition, I do personally know of three such people who are not in AA. My father, my brother, and this guy who is in his early 40s. My father and brother don't touch alcohol, and the other guy has been know to drink irresponsibly and to get violent when drunk. I would probably guess this category is mostly male but there could be females like this too. All three of them have one thing in common. They are all too smart for their own good.
Here are some things I have noticed in their behavior and thinking.
- They think WAY too much - they are probably extreme Thinkers on the MBTI. No offense to anyone who scored as T - there are some fine thinking types out there, especially those who are moderate thinking types. Also, keep in mind that "feelers" do think. Everybody thinks. Some more than others, and we all think differently, but everybody thinks.
- They question everything.
- They are not easily swayed. Most people can be swayed by Caitlyn Jenner, religious fundamentalists, AA, a doctor's opinion, the internet. These "too smart" people aren't swayed by anything. They will question Caitlyn Jenner (or Bruce to them because most of them will never see her as Caitlyn). Most of them will question religious fundamentalists, AA, doctors, and anything on the internet. They even critically question science. They are inherently skeptical about everything.
- They are not easily succumbed to peer pressure. They will typically not drink because other people are drinking. There are exceptions, and there are some who might drink to numb out, but usually not to fit in.
- They don't have a lot of friends - they either have no friends or very few friends. There are exceptions, and if they do have friends they will likely influence their friend's way of thinking rather than the other way around.
- They are very soul sickened. Something traumatic may have happened to them when they were younger to trigger this kind of response.
- They believe that most people are stupid, beneath them, and are easily brainwashed by religious fundamentalist, pop culture, or easily give in to peer pressure to drink or smoke.
- They have the worst of male egos.
- Will argue that "other people" - religious fundamentalists, drinkers, people who are into pop culture, gays, transgender people, people in AA, people who have a life - are all unhappy
- Will say that they are more "enlightened" than others, and that they are happier than those "unenlightened" people
- Are probably some of the most unhappy people in the world. I would probably say that most religious fundamentalists are probably happier people.
- Have no life. Probably spend most of their time in front of their computers.
- Will tell you that everything in life is ultimately a path to self-destruction
- Will likely call themselves "liberals" while being just as closed-minded as fundamentalist Christians. They are not centrists nor liberals. They are self-centered, closed-minded, egotistical, self-absorbed people.
- Will accuse psychologists of being ultra liberals who simply tell you what you want to, while at the same time will criticize religious fundamentalists for being closed-minded bigots
- Believe that you need to take the straight and narrow path (does this sound like a fundamentalist), but their path isn't any established religion but their own sick way of thinking
- Do not believe in any established religion, and are usually atheists
- Will spend excessive amounts of time talking against established religion
- They believe that everything is "shit" in this world, and will spend excessive amounts of time talking about what's wrong with this world
They will question the science behind gender variance. They will say that gender dysphoria isn't real, and that something else is causing us to feel the way we do.
- Asperger's
- being a gay man who hasn't accepted being a gay man, or wants to be a woman in order to attract men
- being a failure as a man
- having succumbed to peer pressure
- having been brainwashed by the transgender community
- having come in contact with wrong company
- having smoke in your head
- being mentally ill
- your just a fetishist who is taking your fantasy too far
They might also cite scientific reasons why we can never be women. They will say that we have
- male DNA
- male bone structure
- male reproductive organs
- male anatomy
- male hormones
They might also say that we have a testosterone deficiency, or that taking male hormones can masculinize the brain. Contrast this to a religious fundamentalist who might think that they can "pray the demon out of us."
How do I know so much about these "too smart" people. I grew up with two of them. I know very well how they think. These people are real. If you are unfortunate to have one in your life, they will try to talk you out of transitioning using scientific arguments and or excessive amounts of logic. So much logic that they end up sounding very illogical.
These kinds of people, will NEVER change. They will never be swayed by Caitlyn Jenner, nor by anyone else. I see more hope for a religious fundamentalist or even a TERF being swayed. Most religious fundamentalists are people who have been swayed by brainwashing from their churches and families. Although they have lots of brainwashing to overcome, there is a chance some of them might be swayed by Jenner. Of course, many of these people will be the ones who try to form a backlash against us.
Are these people dangerous. Probably not unless one of them gets any kind of power, but if they do, they can be more dangerous than TERFs or religious fundamentalists. Some of these people might become doctors, and have negatively influenced the medical community about 30-40 years ago. They convinced us that being transgender is just some mental illness. They are the ones who created all these barriers to transition. They are people like Blanchard, who believe that MTF TSes are either fetishists living out a fantasy, or gay men who are attempting to attract a male partner, and not as women.
I also found an article about Caitlyn Jenner, which was anti-trans, written by such a guy. Here it is, and you can see for yourself the logical idiocy behind his argument. He essentially called transwomen "mentally ill crossdressers."
http://www.theblaze.com/contribution...elusional-man/
Absolutely! That's the answer, couldn't have said it better. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
I don't feel left out at all. In fact, I hope I continue to be left out. Numerous studies show that most, maybe as much as 95% of crossdressers are heterosexual. I have managed to keep my dressing private all of my adult life. But if I were discovered, I would not want anyone to think maybe I was going to transition. I just enjoy being smooth shaved all over and wearing short slithery dresses, a thong, and sandals from time to time. Errr, well, most of the time now. But I have never considered transitioning, nor would I ever. I still think some of those who transition are making a big mistake. When the boys and the testosterone are gone, it has to have some effect on their feelings and thought process. And not to be cruel, but few men who transition, wind up looking like they think they will look. You can take hormones by the pound, and you still have big shoulders, and a narrow waist, and muscular legs, etc. I'd like to see some studies or interviews of those who have transitioned, several years later.
Michelle, as I was reading your description of the " too smart" people my mind automatically went to the author of the article you cited. I read that piece too and found it to be disturbing, but also a good reminder of the arguments we have to be able to stand up against.
There is one aspect of that article that I do think deserves some careful consideration. In spite of how strongly we may feel feminine, unless we were actually raised as girls and experienced everything they do as we grew up, there is a pretty wide psychological gulf between us and GGs. I doubt very few of us experienced being told that what we could aspiret to be professionally was limited because of our sex. Nor did many of us have male figures who would comfort and protect us almost by instinct. How many of us born and raised as males were encouraged to form strong emotional bonds with our friends? So I think that, except in the case of severe gender dysphoria, it is pushing things to claim a transgender person knows what its like to be a woman. Only a woman who has spent her whole life as one really knows what it is like.
The man the wrote the Vanity Fair article of Caitlyn did come out and say on TV the he was a crossdresser. It was actually the 2nd time he has publicly revealed thisQuote:
Originally Posted by maya1love
Hi Lacey,Quote:
Originally Posted by Lacey New
Unfortunately, you see little dialogue about those of us caught in between because it can be difficult for some (okay many) to fathom anything outside of a neat binary. Heck we even do so ourselves as a community from time to time on posts. Specifically some here espouse you are either in the transitioning club or you are just a cross dresser. Neither of which describe me. Now I will fall on my sword and be the first to admit, the position that you are either "in or out" makes logical sense as even a spectrum has to have two sides. However, ignoring the middle ground (la, la, la I can't hear you :notlistening:) makes it difficult for many to find a zone of comfort without feeling as though they are an outsider.
As much as I try to educate those around me I still get "so you want to become a woman?" To which I reply "No, I want to be the person I was meant to be and if that means being a woman one day and a guy the next that is my comfort zone right now". I believe that binaries help those who don't truly understand, accept what is going on and provide some amount of tolerance . . . "Okay, this guy wants to become a woman, will medically do so in some form or another and live full time as a woman. Got it. Don't understand it but I can accept that as he has made the decision to do it so I can respect that." However, tell some people (not everyone . . . just some) you just feel a need to be a woman sometimes and irrespective of whether they come from the Vanilla world or our community, this is what you normally get "Why would you want to do that, it doesn't make sense? You are either a guy or a girl? . . . What is this some sort of fun hobby? How can you possibly be both genders, just commit and get on with it? . . . You can't say you are woman and still and live partially as a man. Doesn't make sense? :raisedeyebrow::thinking:
Hi Bridget,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget Ann Gilbert
Acceptance of TG persons in the Canadian military has been a fact of policy since the early 90s. Indeed I remember when the first trans-woman came forward and started transitioning. There was no policy in place and so in true administrative fashion one was written . . . our current version. Now, this policy was written by two policy folks, an infantry officer and a JAG lawyer both of whom knew nothing about being TG. It was written in a cold policy and clinical manner . . . "If you are doing A then B, C, and D will happen". When I first decided to out myself at work, I read the policy and quickly realized that it was out of date and while it definitely helped those who were TS it did nothing for anyone in my case . . . "You want to what? Dress like a woman on some days and a man on others? What does the policy say? Nothing in the policy about playing dress-up . . . sorry son that dog don't hunt." Now it was not that bad but the policy was a sticking point when I first approached and indicated I might be considering workplace accommodation. As such, a working group was convened to discuss the policy and expand the scope of the definition of TG to include those caught in between.
Hugs
Isha
To me it can only be all good and I do not feel left out at all. To me CD and TS is just like opposite sides of the same coin. And the coin is worth TG. Some days I feel blessed to be alive right in the midst of a burgeoning trains revolution of sorts that's going on in the world. Some days I wish it wasn't so stirred up as it forces me out of my comfort zone to have to listen to all the backlash coming from those closest to me who are rampantly phobic of all things trains and gay (extended family, co-workers, etc)
But at the end of the day I still feel it to be good for us all. The average cisgender person who sees you out and about is not about to start wondering to themselves, hmm....is this person TS or CD? To them it's all the same thing.
And therein lies the rub...Quote:
Originally Posted by Isha
My company has a policy that allows gender expression; no problem with that. However, I think the intent was to provide an accomodation to those somewhere along the road to transitioning. The important point is one of consistent presentation. It does not cover back and forth.
Since the Canadian military already had the concept of Workplace Accomodation, that seems to be a significant part of the battle. In civilian settings, the social situation of the workplace is much less structured. Seems like it would be a much more difficult deal to work through.
DeeAnn
I don`t feel left out because I am not a transgender activist.If I was out there fighting for TG rights I would feel a need to be heard.