That's a different discussion entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
By the way, we do hurt people. Just not in the physical sense. But again, that is an entirely different discussion.
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That's a different discussion entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
By the way, we do hurt people. Just not in the physical sense. But again, that is an entirely different discussion.
Unfortunately, it doesn't make a lot of difference. Usually we transgender people (in the broad sense of the term) are much more identifiable. You would be hard pressed to tell a pedophile or rapist just by looking at them. No so with us. We are much easier targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
DeeAnn
Now I say "Awesome...we are above pedophiles and rapists" Thank you for putting us in a category compared to criminals.
I feel sorry if the people over the pond take Caitlyn less seriously because she is in a reality show family.
Being related to someone doesn't make you like them.
I really do think we're lower than that here in Texas. After all, there is no law that prevents pedophiles and rapists from using public restrooms, but they sure as hell tried to pass four different laws this year that would've made it illegal for me to use a public restroom, because it's assumed that I'm a rapist and / or a pedophile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Firstly, I didn't put us in a category compared to criminals. In fact, I didn't compare us to criminals at all. Do not put words into my mouth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Secondly, I agree with you - being related to someone doesn't make you like them. I'm not expressing my view here, I'm simply highlighting the view that many people have expressed here in the UK.
I believe that it comes from being raised as a boy, and believing that our penis is the center of everything. Its what we are told defines us as better than girls; we have something, they have nothing. Later in life, that concept of a penis being superior to a vulva is constantly reinforced by the rest of the males, in fact lots of females as well, whenever the term pu$$y or sissy is used to insult a boy. It never stops. Grown males continue to believe so strongly that their penis is the center of all female pleasure, despite the fact that over 2/3 of women cannot reach orgasm through vaginal stimulation alone. None of it matters in the penis central world of men. Even guys with small penises insist that they can make any woman come by intercourse. The desperate cling to ignorance out there is astounding. I think here, though, it's a reaction to how the world MIGHT perceive us. Homophobia is very deeply seated in us from childhood on. It's hard to get rid of it entirely, because of the effects it has on our life. We dress up in female clothing, even if we're heterosexual. That alone will make it almost impossible to find a female mate. When you add to that, the possibility that we are in denial about being gay which is suggested by so much of the world, it pretty much eliminates any chance that any woman would be attracted to us. So we insist loudly that we still have nice penises which get nice and hard and can sustain intercourse for great periods of time, all in the effort to convince even one woman that we are still straight. We're in a difficult situation; gay by association.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
I have to wonder though, I think she knew what she was doing. After all, she could have stayed in the background and avoided as much publicity as she could, and let the younger women of the family remain up front in the spotlight. During the interview, I got the impression that she knew what could happen, and decided that she'd 'let it all hang out' and let the world know exactly what a transsexual was, was not, and what we could be. It definitely started lots of conversations. I did find myself educating a lot of people at work about all the differences, whether they thought I was TS or not no one suggested.Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Joanne~
I support Caitlyn because she's gotten the discussion started in so many areas where no one would ever think to mention it. Her decision to stay in the media spotlight will keep the topic current for quite a while. All we can do is hope more people will come to accept gender variations as normal, and accept us for who we really are, not what they used to think we are.
Next up,
and then,Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
You forget. In lots of people's minds, they think that because we're sexual deviates (their opinion, not mine), we are likely to be pedophiles, and many women think that we dress up as women because we want to get into women's rest rooms to rape them. Absurd, from our point of view, yes. But that's how a lot of people think, perfectly exemplefied by:Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
andQuote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
thenQuote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
WE don't hurt them. They CHOOSE to feel hurt because they don't like what we do WITH OURSELVES.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
There is a difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
You never cease to amaze me. Did you read her whole post? or did you just do as you always do, take a piece out of a paragraph and place it so that it is totally out of context and that it makes the poster look as if they are attacking the community as a whole? This is what has happened to My posts as well. You took whatever little pieces you wanted and placed them as if that was my whole post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Moving on, I wasn't going to respond to this post again, honestly, I never was going to go past my original first post because I knew that not being on the Caitlyn Jenner band wagon was not going to make Me popular. She is every where right now and all the praise she is getting I do believe is a bit misguided.
let Me make a couple things clear....if possible
1. I am not an English major. Matter of fact, while I did very well in high school with the subject, I never went much further than that with it. That being said, I do realize that a lot of times the words that I chose, the sentences I form, and the thoughts I tried to convey did not come across on the written page as I intended. It also comes down to how people READ the words that are there and if they consider the whole context that they go with or if they pick and chose what they read. I, for the record, also never won any spelling bees either.
I never meant to imply that anyone here, or in the world, is not considered a woman just because they haven't had genital surgery. I understand there are different "levels" of being TG, as with Cding, and that not all TG people will need to go all the way. They were born with a female's soul, trapped in a male's body and I will never know that feeling. I will never know the pain you are suffering just to live a daily life, the emotions you feel or the injustice that you will need to over come and for that I apologize if you took the bits and pieces of my bad wording and it stabbed you like a knife, it was never my intent.
I also understand that a few can not fulfill their goals of becoming "complete" due to the finances of it, maybe the health issues that prevent it, or any other circumstance that may prevent you from reaching your goals, IF that is your goal, fully. This also brings me back to Caitlyn Jenner though which was the topic at hand. Clearly she has the money to finish the transition and she also has the health (which is completely an assumption on my part) so why hasn't she decided to finish the process to become the person she is claiming to be and has been her whole life? Do not take this wrong or read this wrong, my knowledge of TG is limited but isn't that the goal of someone that is transgender?
Katey888 said it best here:
This is what I was trying to convey with a later post but obviously my words were lost due to poor writing skills or poor reading skills. Their world is not the same as our world. Never has been, never will be. While CJ is center stage for the TG community, and the biggest to date to ever come along, what happens IF she does transition back? Where does that leave this community in the opinions of the general public? I will be honest, when I heard she had not fully transitioned, the first thought to enter my mind was that IF she did go back, if this was a publicity stunt, she could because she didn't fully transition and it would destroy any momentum that the TG community has gained from her being center stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katey888
Matter of fact, it would probably do more damage than anyone can begin to comprehend. If Time magazine comes out a year from now, two years from now, when ever, IF it ever does and the cover says: Caitlyn Jenner Fraud! Goes back to being Bruce! Where does that leave the TG community? At that point, it leaves it looking like we flip a switch and go back and forth when that statement isn't true but in the eyes of the general public?
Now going to #2....
I am not TG. I am a CD. While they say that I fit under the LGBT umbrella, I do not, I can not even comprehend how I could. There is no "C" in there (not that a letter defines the term). I am not gay, I am not a Lesbian, I am not Bisexual, and I am clearly not TG/TS. I cross dress. I put on women's clothes, I do women's makeup, I full body shave, I LOVE shopping, I take on women's mannerisms when I am dressed (because it's odd to ME to be dressed as such and act manly) and when ever that time ends, be it an hour, a day, when ever...I go back to being me. While this is a part of me, I do love it and have embraced it, it's not even half of who I am. While I enjoy the calmness that I get and like to explore the world as a woman lives daily, it does not make Me a woman.
I joined this forum solely because I thought it was about crossdressing after, all, The name implys it, even the sub title implys it, yet we are treated like third class citizens here. We fall Under the transgender folks on the forum and even the GG's on this forum. Where is our place in this community let alone under the LGBT umbrella? Maybe it's time for a name change because Crossdressing is surely not at the fore front of this community. I am not saying that it should be either, because lorileah can't wait to tear that snippet out and raise hell over it, but does it even, or do we, have a place here at this point?
I feel, and this is my opinion, that is the reason many of us fail to understand the whole Transgender thing, as it is not what we are here for, we can't possibly relate. We do not have the FULL knowledge to back anything posted about being TG and the reason why my post came across as cold hearted or coarse. I usually do not post to any thread TG related due to this fact, I have so very little knowledge of who you are, what you go through, or what your end goal is. All I do have knowledge about is being CD and even that is limited because the question "why?" can not ever be answered.
I only replied to this post because of this quote:
I asked like what and with little TG knowledge stated that full surgery is what I thought the ultimate goal was for a transgender person. That was my mistake followed by continuing that mistake and I do apologize to everyone that it affected. That was never my intent nor my goal. I am human, this whole lifestyle, whether it be TG or CD is a huge learning experience, that is part of the reason that we are all here. To date though, My asking Like what? still hasn't been answered not that it needs an answer now. It's moot at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikkilovesdresses
Joanne,
There is so much in your last post I want to try to address. First, what makes you think Caitlyn's transformation is just some elaborate publicity stunt? If she was just searching for a little of her own limelight she could have just left stories about her identity up to the tabloid media and garnered plenty of attention that way. Instead she chose to use major media outlets like ABC News and Vanity Fair to explain her decision to start living as a woman. She then goes as far to have FFS and breast implants, changes that are not easy to reverse and are very expensive. To me these are the actions of a person who is commited to a path for her life because she believes it is right for her. I know you qualified your speculation with a big IF, but I think the usefulness of a hypothetical is proportional the likeliness of it being true. You asume because she has not had SRS yet she is somehow keeping her options open. Other than a delay in her process, what evidence do you have to support your claims.
To your claim that as a CD you dont fit under the LGBT umbrella, I have to disagree. The one thing that unites all of these individuals is that they behave in a way that is atypical for a person of their biological sex be it who they sleep with or how they choose to appear, and are discriminated against by many for trying to be themselves. You proudly assert "I put on women's clothes, I do women's makeup, I full body shave, I LOVE shopping, I take on women's mannerisms when I am dressed " These are not the behaviors of your typical man. Apparantly you missed the huge argument we had here over the last month regarding terminology, but there is a growing consensus, especially by the psychological community, that the term Transgender should be used to describe anyone who gender identity or form of gender expression does not match one's assigned sex. Now you may not wish to accept such a definition, but to a lot of folks you are TG just not TS.
In no way are CDs third-class citizens on this site because there are no classes around here. This forum exists to share ideas and to support one another in all of our various forms of gender expresion. Go to the Pictures and Video side and you'll see plenty of examples of CDs enjoying life as CDs and being supported in it by people from all points along the TG spectrum. Everyone here is allowed to expres their opinions. Just because they aren't universally accepted by everyone does not diminish the value of the person making them.
Now, as to your first post where you questioned Nikki's statement "Caitlyn has done more for the TS cause than any other individual I know of." I can see where you are coming from. A lot of that statement hinges on what constitutes "more" for the TS cause. CJ has certainly brought more awarenss to TG individuals, but has anything changed in terms of legal rights and protections in the past week or month? The truth is we won't really know the extent of Caitlyn's contribution for many months or years to come.
Now I apologize if I've come across harshly. There was just so much in your post I disagreed with, but as I said, this place exists to exchange opinions, and hopefully be challenged by them so we can grow as human beings. Best wishes.
Bridget
Bridget is right on the money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget Ann Gilbert
I know many of you on here think "I am a manly man. I mow the lawn. I work on the car. I watch NASCAR and Football." Unfortunately, should your little secret be known, you are not going to be viewed exactly the same as other men by most of the population, I am very sorry to tell you.
In fact, in some ways, your situation is worse than mine in terms of public understanding. I am a woman. I look like a woman. I sound like a woman. I smell like a woman. I feel like one. People get that. I show them old pictures and they say "uh, ok, if you say that's you, then uh, sure. Looks like some random dude to me."
Do you think your story is easier to understand than mine? Let me assure you, it is not.
And one last point, and really the thing that binds us together, even if we have nothing else in common. If the wrong dudes catch you out in the open in your dress, they will murder you just as brutally as they would murder a trans woman. And folks, a lot of us get murdered every year.
So I'd suggest you think really hard about who your friends are, sisters. Because if it weren't for the work some of us are doing on your behalf, you could be murdered and no one would care. If not for us, who would stand up for you? Most of you are completely unwilling to stand up for yourselves. Trust me on this - this is a cruel old world. And it is always on the lookout for more scapegoats. And you don't want that particular distinction to fall upon you. Oh no you do not.
Because trust me, your cries of "I'm really a man!!!!" will not help you when someone is beating you.
Yes, that's the thing. Anyone that would visit violence on another human does not have sufficient intelligence and the ability to reason and discern at that point in time. They are NOT going to say "Oh, those crossdressers are OK, it those damned transsexuals that I HATE!!!". No, there is ONE brush and ONE color...Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
We live together or we die together. It doesn't come any more simple than that.
DeeAnn
Bruce Jenner's transition to Caitlyn is threatening to a lot of men for many reasons. As mentioned, he was the role model Olympic champion, a husband, father, a man's man. And then he admits that he accomplished family, fame and fortune being a woman inside. He became un-manly. He cried. He admitted his feelings. He became beautiful. He became Caitlyn.
The thought that this really happened to Bruce Jenner threatens many men. I am not supporting their sentiments which are based, perhaps in ignorance, prejudice or fear. But I understand why they might react negatively. And what if they had to deal with their own innermost feelings?
Heather, I hear that all the time from people here, but not outside of this site. Do situations like Caitlyn Jenner really threaten the masculinity of a large number of males? Are there any studies about those stereotypical ape heads who would react caveman like to a lot of silly and truly non-threatening things. Is it something that should even be considered when analyzing situations like Jenner's? I think most men just say, "Oh, that is not me nor anyone that I know so why should I worry about it?", i.e. they hear or see it, register it and then go back to their own lives with their own issues. They may not understand and they may not even want to understand because it is outside of their own daily lives. I think that we make a bigger deal of it than it really is.
There are ignorant and almost un-teachable people all over the place, but I would guess that only a few of them would react like that. Yes, it only takes a few, like a rotten apples, to spoil the true picture for others. Most of our worry is in our minds and not in reality. Just like the fear of so many here who do not go out because they fear what might happen when reading all of the going out threads here that say exactly the opposite.
Hmmm let me quote your postQuote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
that isn't comparing? You used examples of things that are above "us" that are criminal.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
To answer an earlier question you have.....about Caitlyn visiting the TS boards...You do understand anonymity right? For all I know you are a famous politician or star or football player. You don't know that she is or isn't right now reading this wondering how the people in the UK dislike her for marrying a woman and adopting her daughters. For all I know your Kate Middleton is the admin here. She rules royally. :heehee:
You cite a small number of Brits I'm sure.
And yes Joanne, I read the whole post. See above. When people say "Well you're better than being a murderer" that's comparing. I read your posts too...and I still don't get how you can be so uninformed about the transsexual community.
Comparing any form of crossdressing to the being a pepohile or molester is crazy. I know the point you were trying to make but it is a poor one like using the word rape around women. I have been molested and it is the worst thing that can happen to child...they simply are not ready for it. That said , what we do is defiantly shunned by most men in society but not any way to the degree of that of a molester. One is criminal the other is not to start.
Jenni_xx, how dare you point out that transgender are not considered lower than pedophiles and rapists by society. Didn't you know it is less transphobic to point out that transgender are at the bottom of the societal hierarchy i.e. below criminals than to say we are above them?:) :brolleyes:
let me see if I can follow this; PaulaQ says TGs are at the bottom of society's hierarchy, Jenni_xx says no we are at least above pedophiles and rapists in the eyes of society, and now Jenni_xx is receiving ire for elevating trans above criminals?
Seriously does anyone read arguments or do they just go into some knee-jerk defcom4 when they read pedophiles and rapists in a topic about transgenderism?
I think I read it very closely and don't think the comparison is very good...just an opinion ...
Paula expressed an opinion that transgendered people are at the bottom of the societal hierarchy. I disagreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Do you agree with Paula (we are the bottom of society) or do you agree with me (we aren't)? I'd be far more interested to hear your opinion on that as opposed to getting into an unnecessary and quite frankly pathetic tit-for-tat discussion surrounding semantics.
Yes, hence why I posted my thoughts as to whether she has been here or not. Just to be clear, I wasn't for one moment expecting someone to reply saying "yes she has" or "no she hasn't".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
You're right to be sure. The approximate number, based on the number of message board posts, is several hundred.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
I'll ask the same question that I asked Lorileah above. Do you agree with Paula that we are the bottom or the societal hierarchy, or do you agree with me that we aren't?Quote:
Originally Posted by txcrossdress
Thank you!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantDebutant
Do you agree with Paula (we are the bottom of society) or do you agree with me (we aren't)? I'd be far more interested to hear your opinion on that as opposed to getting into an unnecessary and quite frankly pathetic tit-for-tat discussion surrounding semantics.
There is nothing worst then a pedophile period so obviously no...crossdressing is something for you, pedophile is something that violates someone else...again not sure why the comparison even exists.
I'm using them as two examples of groups of people who are regarded as being lower in society than transgendered people are in order to illustrate why I disagree with Paula's comment.
That's like saying would you prefer to get blown away by a tornado or a hurricane? It doesn't make much difference. Devastation is devastation...
I think a lot of people don't read. They scan. And they don't consider, they react.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantDebutant
has to read posts, is my job
I am not suggesting that transgender people are worse than pedophiles. The lawmakers in Texas absolutely make this comparison about us. Did you in any way respond to the various bills in this state that would've criminalized us? I did - I wrote my representatives, and lobbied in Austin. Their rationale for trying to put us in jail for using public restrooms was that we (trans women) are rapists and pedophiles, men out to attack their daughters and wives in public restrooms.Quote:
Originally Posted by txcrossdress
There are NO laws against convicted pedophiles or other sex offenders using public restrooms. Even if such laws existed, sex offenders are invisible - you can't tell who is a convicted sex offender just by looking at them.
But you sure can spot some of us. We are highly visible.
I don't actually care who is the very lowest rung of the social ladder. A lot of us have similar problems to convicted felons in our lives once we start transition:
- unable to rent housing in many cases
- unable to gain employment
- sometimes unable to vote
The type of discrimination many of us face is comparable to what ex-cons go through - only here's the kicker - we didn't do anything to hurt anyone else.
I find it pretty offensive that a couple of part time CDs are lecturing me about how easy it is to be transgender. Apparently our situation is not so bad that we can just pointlessly argue about who has it worse, and be told by someone who doesn't face this type of discrimination that things aren't so bad. Because that's what you are saying, right?
Here's some fun true stories about life as trans:
My roommate, who is also transgender, is my roommate because a gang of transphobic men attacked her, multiple times at her apartment complex in Plano Texas. The police told her "you aren't safe here."
My friend in Tulsa who was savagely raped, her jaw broken. The guys who did it probably only planned on a regular old gang rape - things turned extra savage once they got her jeans off and saw she was trans. She still suffers from PTSD.
I spent three horrible hours last year with a dude who pretty obviously intended to rape me. He certainly talked about doing it enough. Somehow, I got out of this. He was looking for a trans woman when he found me. He knew exactly where to look too.
One of the women who attends my group became suicidal after she lost her job because she's trans.
I can keep citing examples like this for a good long time. I have a hard time finding a doctor for many things, because as soon as I say the word "transgender", I'm told " oh, sorry, we don't do that."
So if you feel you have somehow shown me that I don't have it so bad because I'm not a convicted sex offender, I have to tell you that watching a convicted felon I know struggle, and watching some of the trans people I know struggle, there isn't a hell of a lot of difference in some of the difficulties they face in life. Again, the difference between the ex-con I know, and the trans people I know, us that most of us didn't break a single law, yet we often struggle like someone who did.
Txcrossdress, when I talk to people about being trans, they no longer view me as being fully human:
1. They start using male pronouns - even when they used female pronouns before I disclosed to them.
2. They ask the most intrusive and inappropriate questions about my body.
3. They ask really inappropriate questions about my relationship - in essence they wanna know which one of us ****s the other
4. I lost all but one of my past friends.
I can go on with this list too!
I've been at this coming on two years now. I pass quite well. I'm one of the lucky ones. I know many, many trans women who don't pass, and who probably never will. Their lives are enormously difficult.
So please try and have some compassion. Transition is really hard. If you aren't fulltime, I doubt you've experienced some of the worst problems we face.
What possible point can you even have in arguing this stuff?
hi girls, I think steve tyler has done more good for crossdressers then Caitlyn, the guy mixes bracets , womens cloths sashays and the still is admired by both women and streath men , as a guitar player and crossdresser , him and jimi and david bowie were my brake thru to who I am and many other males from my generation and showed us it was all right to mix it up. hugs lynda
Paula, I think conclusions are being drawn here that are going way off the point in regards to what is actually being said. Personally, I am not trying to say that "you don't have it so bad because you're not a convicted sex offender". I'm not trying to belittle anything that you've experienced. That wasn't my intention at all. I'm not trying to say that we're viewed in a generally positive and accepting light by society. My reason for joining this thread in the first place was to comment on how people here in the UK are reacting negatively to Caitlyn Jenner, and try an explain that because of how such people react more generally to the Kardashian media-obsession, Caitlyn's situation isn't being viewed by many as a serious situation in its own right, but rather being belittled to "just another example of the KUWTK circus show".
I did and do disagree with your comment that we (as a group as a whole) are "at the bottom of the societal hierarchy". I don't think that we (as a group as a whole) are. That doesn't mean that I think that (to quote yourself) "our situation is not so bad". Or that the problems we do face as a group are not important. Or that we don't face discrimination.
In response you seem to have been offended that I think society views this group or that group in a much more negative light than they do our group. More so, you seem to be offended that it is a part-time CD who has said this to you. You are pulling rank in the transgendered community by saying your problems and experiences are worse than mine. I don't see that as you belittling the problems that I do face however. On the contrary, I agree with you - your problems and experiences are and have been worse than mine.
Yet, when I disagreed with your comment that we as a group are seen as the "bottom of society", your response seems to indicate that you feel I am belittling the problems that you do and have faced. Just to be clear, I'm not. That was never my intention.