Our favorite "Why" questions

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Originally Posted by susan54

I was intrigued by the non right handedness thing. I am right handed but from childhood have wanted to do certain things as though I was left-handed, specifically sport requiring a bat or club to be grasped with both hands. I never heard of anyone else doing this and had not realised it was a 'thing'. In the end I did not persevere with tennis and when playing golf just adapted to standard right hand clubs and am now more comfortable with this. Thanks for the info.

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I am very right hand dominant, but I play hockey as a lefty.

As for epi-whatever, Wikipedia has a very good "article" on finger length. The key premise is that finger length is correlated to a 39 month long estrogen/testosterone wash, and is not genetically determined.

I do believe that there is some generic inheritance pattern. I have a very small extended family, but on my paternal mother's side of the family, there are 4 out of 25 or so "non-binary": a gay man, a lesbian, a lesbian or possibly FtM and me, "just a CD". It seems like a very percentage of non-binary and a wide variety of non-binary expressions.

well here is a thought https://science.howstuffworks.com/li...ain-myths3.htm
so you pick up a skill by practicing and working on it and thinking about . your plastic brain gets modified by your own thoughts >
think about crossdressing and looking at" hot teacher/banker indian cheif", your brain expands and accomates the skill of your obsession ,be it hunting, motorcycling , art , calculus of planetary orbits, or crossdressing , cause that's what it does.
you keep going to class keep seeing hotty and thinking how awasum it would be to be her clothes to be able to feel what they feel ..to be in her clothes ...you just made your brain a crossdresser...do it for 3 weeks ..it's almost an addiction throw in a couple of orgasums > ooh your ****ed now << life long slave to panties , lip stick, snug wool skirts on taffeta slips swishing on nylon covered legs and the clicking of hi heels or what ever you dreamed about it . so is crossdressing a bad habit started long ago or is the study on finger length right ? occam's razor says simple is closest to truth . curiosity killed the cat satisfaction brought him back well curiosity made the feline and damn does it feel nice ,purrrrr. So the parallels between a 12 step program and falling off the wagon really run close can you say oxycodone trigger? "the love chemical". now if I had heard some where pre puberty about bad habits and how setting a goal can literally change how you think and are able to think by expanding >literally <your minds tablet size in the area you give a lot of thought to > I might not have let it get such an acreage of canvas to draw on . I might have picked a different less obsolete more saleable and social skill in the same area..but knowledge about scandal girdles how many psi they hug with(.8 to 1.2 corsets as much as 4 psi more on men,ribs are thicker ) , what % the different parts stretch and speaking of calculus & fluid pressure there is...friction,
swish factor when she moves..
in the realm of over thinking silly stuff> rabbit holes , you tube, and anything that happens more than 6 thousand years ago around africa and the pyramids> deep rabbit hole! interesting, math of one explains the location of the next<
question is ,are the aliens* that used their dna to modify the neanderthals dna responsible for the minds plasticity, or the neanderthals for being able to learn ? I'll tell you, playtex makes a girdle, no mater what they call it .*(they need a good miner for the gold they aconded with and used local resources )https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...act=mrc&uact=8
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...act=mrc&uact=8

1. Why do we exist?

Because we're a normal variation in sexuality.

2. Why do we do what we do?

Because we exist.


The error we see in virtually every study done, is that they try to find the ONE, and ONLY ONE, cause of crossdressing. So they come up with a hypothesis, and then it all comes crashing down when they find someone who doesn't fit; they then try to disregard everything about them that doesn't fit their hypothesis in order to justify to themselves that they are really right after all, but the more they study, the more they find out that there are too may exceptions to their hypothesis for it to be correct.

Only when they realize that there is no ONE single cause, will they be able to make advances in this field of study.

It all stems from the either outright, or subconscious desire to figure out how to identify the ONE cause, and stop it, or reverse it.

'Oh, his mom dressed him as a girl when he was a child. Well then, all we have to do is stop anyone from dressing their son in girls clothes, and we can stop everyone from ever becoming a crossdresser'. Or, 'Ah, it seems that he was exposed to more estrogen and not as much testosterone when he was in the uterus, so all we have to do is monitor hormone levels and make sure they are correct, and this will prevent anyone from becoming a crossdresser'. Or maybe, 'Oh, we found a genetic variation that is found in more crossdressers than normal folks, so all we have to do is identify those parents with the potential to pass along this anomoly and we'll be able to stop people from having children that might grow up to be crossdressers'. The list goes on and on. All in order to figure it out, and stop it from happening. Why? Because they can't stand the idea that we are different. Because they're frightened that THEY or THEIR children might wind up being a crossdresser, and, of course, that they might be gay.

All because of homophobia. Hey, world, it's the 21st century. Gay people are no danger to any of you, no less valuable contributors to society; in fact, most of the ones I know are even nicer than the general straight people.

Let it be, already.

Pat, thank you for this summary and response. I am left handed but do many things with my right. Ambidextrous is what I've called it, but in an atypical fashion. Knowing how I became the way I am is good to know but I am this way and what's best is for me (and society) to accept that.

Regarding the CD comment, I consider myself to be trans. The easy answer is I'm a crossdresser, but the more complex answer is I'm transgender.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

1. Why do we exist?

Because we're a normal variation in sexuality.

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A variation in human gender experience, yes. A variation in sexuality? Most people who study this say no, it's distinct from sexuality.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

2. Why do we do what we do?

Because we exist.

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I do love a good tautology and I can't really argue against it. But I was trying to emphasize the mechanism for a biological trait interacting with what many think is an invented social norm.

It is an interesting summary.

Finger length ratio for me is almost equal, borderline male but you'd have to measure it to see the difference, as for the handedness thing, I am predominantly right handed, I do everything with my right hand except for one thing; using a knife and fork :thinking:

For me the clothes thing is a big factor I know what feels right for me I would rather have the jeans from the women's section and I cannot explain why that is other than "I am Trans" it has nothing to do with the feel (silky, satin etc.) the impression of a sexy look. When I dress I wear 'womens' clothing, jeans T's, bland as you like, but it feels 'right', I feel comfortable, I feel good (but not in a sexy fetish way).

To boot I hate buying mens clothes, they don't and have never interested me, possibly because deep down I have never wanted to be a 'man' whatever that means. I have lost nearly 40lbs over the past year and a bit. My work trousers are like MC hammer pants now, some of my shirts lose and fairly ill fitting as my waist has dropped from ~38 to around ~34in. But I'm not going to replace them until they are worn out because I simply do not want to because I don't like them.

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Originally Posted by giuseppina

Fascinating thread, Pat.

Does the book make any mention of body shape at puberty? Mine was more like that of a cis-female without breast development than a cis-male. It would be interesting to see how my brain stacks up wrt male/female characteristics.

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Giuseppina how interesting... when i see pics of myself as a child at puberty and even for a while after I definitely looked like a pre pubescent girl with a flat chest..

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Originally Posted by giuseppina

Does the book make any mention of body shape at puberty?

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I apologize for missing the question. No, that isn't mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised if it hasn't been studied yet.

Thanks for posting this and for being so diligent with your replies, Pat!:hugs:

Something pretty simple occured to me. Some people, (My uncle comes to mind) are unreasonably fixated on continuing on the family name. A simple idea like that just might be driving a lot folks to be bigoted against accepting us as we see ourselves. Finding out we may be predisposed to the opposite gender only upsets them more. And of course there's the ever popular "I don't like it, so you shouldn't do it." ploy. We're all too familiar with that one.

Thanks to Mary G for finding the review- it supplements Pat's thorough summaries, and includes this reference:
"Bevan also draws on biopsychology's findings that conscious choices are rooted in prior subconscious mechanisms to argue "the motivation for TSTG is mediated by subconscious mechanisms that cannot be directly controlled by conscious thought". It can neither be "learned through experience or lost through forgetting".

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Originally Posted by MaryG

http://www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/u...ook-Review.pdf

I found it to be an excellent review

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Trying to capture my subconscious motivations in fleeting moments of awareness has not been easy, and perhaps it is just trying to understand my motivations when I can't see my biology or genetics. I'm sure biological drivers manifest as preferences and this leads to more elaborate subconscious choices. On the other hand, a lot of subconscious drivers can operate at a cultural level.

I don't like to wear all women's clothes, for example, but I ecstatically and peacefully love to wear those that reflect my view of myself in different roles- peacefully sitting and looking at the ocean, out doing errands, playing tennis, being part of the art work in a museum, fashion sewing student, etc. As a child, when I didn't have access to the particular clothes, and a much simpler life, I would still try to make up a dress from a sack, so the age-old, consistent need is clearly to signal to myself, and to other, my sense of qualifying membership in the class of 'woman'. That was before I had any knowledge or experience of the many choices and styles of womanhood. So it was more of a simple receptive/assertive dynamic. Or maybe that was my mental sense of some biology. At the same time, I didn't and don't want to give up my membership in the class of 'man'. I really like and value parts of man territory.

I've tried to determine if I am TS and just trying to make body reality fit, and maybe I am very similar to a girl wanting to stay a girl but have 70's style women' liberation! Until there is better definition of identity, I can't get a better answer than to say that gender is clearly a many-stranded experience, with dozens of roots in prenatal biology, significant experiences in gender role training, interaction with culture and what kinds of people we are exposed to, etc.

The complexity of gender, as evidenced by the narratives we are sharing, is even more fully elaborated by this scientific exploration. It is clear there is no short path to a complete theoretical and practical understanding. This is enough to support banding together and arguing for broad inclusion. Letting people be is actually very simple.

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While we all look to experts we mustn't forget they wouldn't be so without us , we are the source of their information . When we exchange our thoughts here it's from the horses mouth and not second hand .

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Indeed we are the subjects of study but we form a wide spectrum of experience and how "transgenderism" expresses itself may be influenced or modified by other factors that may be social or biological. Also it is difficult for us to examine ourselves objectively. Bevan's meta study is an important contribution to a complex issue. Is he correct? Probably in some or most of what he states but this is a scientific study and so it has to be falsifiable. In other words, other studies and experiments and measurements will be made and compared to Bevan's conclusions. The conclusions may be supported or may be found wanting and so the search for a solution will go on.
My take from this is that my fetishistic transvestism probably has roots in my biological makeup but I wonder about the fetishistic part. May that have come from external causes?

Still lots of questions but it is encouraging to see that the questions are still being asked and careful studies are being made. Each of us has an opinion of why we may be the way we are but how many of us subject those opinions to rigorous analysis of the sort that Bevan brings to the puzzle?

Finally my thanks to Pat for doing her part to study and summarize Bevan's work. That was no small task.

Thank you for posting this. I'll need to read back through this a bit more slowly later. But it does give me a bit of insight as to why I do what I do.

Fascinating read. I have spent many sleepless nights wondering why I am the way I am. I attribute it to external factors but maybe I missed that in my makeup, there is something that gives me the desire to dress and act female.

I hesitate to get into discussions about anything transgender unless that word is defined by the user. It means so many different things to different people that it ends up meaning nothing. To me, it's the umbrella meaning, and includes everyone who identifies and/OR expresses in varying degrees as the gender opposite their sex.
I read the OP but not the book. I don't think the use of transgender in either the book or OP is meant to include crossdressers, especially crossdressers (like me) who have strong male identities and like it, but enjoy crossdressing at times. This may sound strange, but I think it is that maleness (and my male response to feminine things) that drives my crossdressing. Maybe a topic for a separate discussion.
So it's not surprising that crossdressing wasn't mentioned.
I don't think that TS and CD are peas from the same pod that went on different development paths. We are fundamentally different in many ways but often are mentioned together because of one thing we do: wear women's clothing. Even in that, there are differences in how and why we do it.
I have a forum friend with much in common in both crossdressing and non-crossdressing, and we discuss both often via PM. I identify as TG,a male-identified CDer under the TG umbrella, but she, also a male-identified CDer, does not consider herself TG because she does not identify as a woman. To better communicate, when someone uses transgender, it would help to know what they mean. Sorry, but "everybody knows" isn't so.

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Originally Posted by NicoleScott

I don't think the use of transgender in either the book or OP is meant to include crossdressers, especially crossdressers (like me) who have strong male identities and like it, but enjoy crossdressing at times.

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The book says this when distinguishing identities:

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It should be noted that there are reasons for cross-dressing that fall outside of the contemporary TSTG definition. Historically and even today, cross-dressing may be motivated by factors other than gender predisposition including theatrics, politics, adventure, religion, publicity, economics, and necessity.

Bevan, Thomas. The Psychobiology of Transsexualism and Transgenderism: A New View Based on Scientific Evidence (pp. 65-66). ABC-CLIO. Kindle Edition.

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which I take to mean that outside of the stated exceptions, the author views crossdressers as transgender.

As far as the OP, I understand that we have some crossdressers who think they are not transgender on this forum and I don't care to get into the business of telling others who they are. If you accept being transgender, this book is about you. If you reject being transgender, we're not talking about you. You get to make the sole decision if you are transgender or not. Please don't side-track this thread.

Pat, I'm not trying to side-track your thread. I was commenting on others' observations that crossdressers weren't mentioned in the OP. I would have liked to see a definition of TSTG before discussion about "whys".

This thread really should be sticky.