Stand up, Be proud! Fight for your rights, take a stand.

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Originally Posted by Kimberley

I take exception to the inference that I am somehow less because I am "in the closet." That is total BS.

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Less? No, I didn't say that.

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I am out to my wife. Her approach is if you are going to pursue that lifestyle, I am gone; with the house, the cars, the pensions all of it. So, I am supposed to come out of the closet and march in the streets? I am supposed to toss away 35 years of hard work for an ideal? GET A GRIP!!!

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Who says you have to pursue any specific lifestlyle to help? I didn't say one had to "dress full time", I didn't say one had to "march in the streets". Geebus, I think some of you are reading more intent into what I said and using that as an justification to not do anything

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This isnt about the individual, this is about human rights at large.

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That's right, but don't you want Transfolk to not have to worry about their pensions etc, if they happen to come out either by purpose or by accident?

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Acceptance cannot be forced,

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Perhaps, but sometimes something has to be forced. When the supreme court said that separate schools were not equal, now that was force. When they sent National Guard to protect those young people attending university, that was force. And they were in the right by doing it. It had to be done. Sometimes just sitting on your duff waiting for change is not going to do any good.

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if that were the case there would be no more gay bashing, no more racism, no more bigotry because all these and more are espoused in law as basic human rights.

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There's a lot less of that stuff, than there was even 20 years ago, because of people "forcing" things.

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Change has to come because of societal acceptance, not beating drums or burning our bras. (mine are too expensive to burn anyway).

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Wrong. Change requires action and that can lead to more societal acceptance faster than just waiting. If you wait for societal acceptance, then you're going to wait a long time. Is that a good thing? Did other groups "just wait" until others said, "hey now it's okay for women to vote" or "hey, that mim crow stuff isnt nice so we'll stop it now". No, they did things, sometimes big things, sometimes small things, but they did take action.


Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

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Originally Posted by Kimberley

I am out to my wife. Her approach is if you are going to pursue that lifestyle, I am gone; with the house, the cars, the pensions all of it. So, I am supposed to come out of the closet and march in the streets? I am supposed to toss away 35 years of hard work for an ideal? GET A GRIP!!!

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Yeah, therein lies the problem, and the point, really. What we want is that attitudes change so that doesn't happen IN THE FUTURE. That requires effort in the here and now, and that obviously isn't desirable for those, like you, who'd lose everything so the next generation didn't lose everything. What we're talking here is taking the risk of self sacrifice, facing the fear of it, and the fact that for some people it really will go t*ts up, and then having to deal with that, in the name of someone else you'll never know, and without thanks too. If you don't, fair enough, who can blame you, honestly? But of course, if you don't, nothing changes. When Rosa Parks stayed sitting down, it wasn't the easy option was it?
That's as balanced as I can make it. No activism, just the summary that things won't change without being pushed. I think it's a good thing, but there should never be an obligation on anyone, either way, that's just not fair.

Someone assumed that society would just carry on being 'more open', well that's just daft. We were more open before the victorians, then it took decades to slide into the puritan society we remember of them, then it slid out again. Do NOT assume that it won't slide back again if opinion swings that way. It could, it really could, if pushed that way by conservative people. Society changes direction sometimes; if you want it to go in a particular way, then push.

Take care :)

Right, what one must fundamentally understand here, is that, to do so (that is, move forward in society), this WILL require some loss/risk and to be honest,


quite possibly some bloodshed. It may indeed require some physical altercation.

Thank you Maria. I knew you would see the point.

I am not militant but I am definitely an advocate. I do write letters expressing my opinions of the lack of support and the likes. I do express my outrage when appropriate. This does not mean I am on the front lines but I am still proactive. I can do my bit and not jeopardize a thing.

Is that wrong? I think not.

Kimberley

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Originally Posted by kwebb

this WILL require some loss/risk and to be honest, quite possibly some bloodshed. It may indeed require some physical altercation.

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What's that saying . . . ? To make an omelette, you have to break some eggs? (Something like that.) 0.02

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit

Perhaps, but sometimes something has to be forced. When the supreme court said that separate schools were not equal, now that was force. When they sent National Guard to protect those young people attending university, that was force. And they were in the right by doing it. It had to be done. Sometimes just sitting on your duff waiting for change is not going to do any good.

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Really *bad* analogies. Crossdressing isn't even close to being of equal importance to those issues.

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Originally Posted by BlueKat

Really *bad* analogies. Crossdressing isn't even close to being of equal importance to those issues.

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Whose to say? Can importance be measured? Whether the rights are for one or one billion.

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Originally Posted by BlueKat

Really *bad* analogies. Crossdressing isn't even close to being of equal importance to those issues.

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Again, it's not about crossdressing! :Angry3:

It's about not being persecuted for being different. It's about tolerance and understanding. It's about raising social awareness...

It's about being allowed to become who you are without fear of getting the shit kicked out of as a result.

Read about Tyra Hunter who was allowed to die with the paramedics standing by laughing... All because she was transgendered.

There are many more cases like this were we are not deemed 'worth the effort' by society.

You want a reason... It could be you someday. :(


Regards,
Donna

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Originally Posted by Ms. Donna

It's about being allowed to become who you are without fear of getting the shit kicked out of as a result.

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It all comes down to CHOICE...you make the choice how, when, where, or IF you CD. Without fear of getting the shit kicked out you?
There is a risk for virtually everything you do in your life.
You can't control the thoughts and actions of every person in society.
You just have to accept the consequences of your actions.

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Originally Posted by BlueKat

It's all comes down to CHOICE...you make the choice how, when, where, or IF you CD. Without fear of getting the shit kicked out you?
There is a risk for virtually everything you do in your life.
You can't control the thoughts and actions of every person in society.
You just have to accept the consequences of your actions.

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So crossdressing is a choice? And there was me thinking it was part of who you are, like being gay, and that getting hurt because of who you are is a little harsh. I suppose you could argue it was the Jews fault they were killed by the nazis, because they were Jews. That IS your logic, unless you really feel that CDing is a choice. I don't know, I'm not one, shall we ask the members here if it's a choice or a need?

Secondly, if the consequence of your actions involves someone doing something illegal, and you are not inciting that person to do something, it is not your responsibilty.
It's critical to understand that as human beings we have the right to do as we wish providing it doesn't hurt anyone intentionally. It is NOT upon you to ensure you stay hidden so as not to offend, it is NOT up to you to avoid being beaten up, it IS ABSOLUTELY upon everyone else to leave you alone and let you do as you please. Any other mentality is moving simply in the direction of bigotted hatred, with the end of THAT line being terrorists. They disagree strongly enough with $whatever to kill, or even die for it.

For instance, should I start living as a fundemental muslim just to please Al Quieda? If not, then why should I start living as the version of normal desired by a TG hating person? Or how about the Catholic parents of my fiancee who hate me for who I am?

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Originally Posted by Maria D

So crossdressing is a choice?

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I'm not saying we choose whether or not we are CD's. Of course we have no choice over that. I'm saying when and where we CD is definitely a CHOICE.

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It's critical to understand that as human beings we have the right to do as we wish providing it doesn't hurt anyone intentionally. It is NOT upon you to ensure you stay hidden so as not to offend, it is NOT up to you to avoid being beaten up, it IS ABSOLUTELY upon everyone else to leave you alone and let you do as you please.

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Sure, you can do what you want....and all this sounds good, but as I said...you can't control the actions of others in society. It's pretty simple, really.

you gotta fight....for your right.....to dress up.

Not quite Beastie Boyish, but it works. :D

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Originally Posted by BlueKat

you can't control the actions of others in society. It's pretty simple, really.

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Given the relative lack of 'out' CDs, those that seek to repress you one way or another, for instance fear of being beaten up, seem to be managing to control quite a number of people, don't they?

You are essentially saying 'conform or take the risk'. That is control.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit

Peter Oiler. Google it.

Do you want to be fired for CDing at home? No? Then don't you want laws protecting your civil rights? Yes? Then you've got to fight for them. Now you may be thinking, "I'll just stay very deep in my closet, no one will know."

Is that good for your mental health to do that?
Is that good for CD's as a whole to do that?



That's the problem with the past generations of CD's concentrating on being safe in their closets. Don't you want things to be better? Don't you want the next generation to have it easier than we did? Something has to be done.


Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

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Hi this is Peter Oiler (yes that one)

Yes! I lost a very good job, and the law suite. But all things considered the best that I did was to go back to church full time (Yes dressed , Most think I am a better person when dressed). My wife and I go lots of places together, I get most of my needs in mainstream stores. The best way I see to get what most of us need or want is :: One - To be counted in a way that the press and government will believe. Two - Get as many of us elected to important offices.
Even if your still in the closet, You can send a postcard to a current elected official, and say I am a voter and a X dresser or T.S. and if you fail me, I will vote you OUT.

Peter (Donna ) Oiler0.02

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Originally Posted by Deborah

you gotta fight....for your right.....to dress up.
Not quite Beastie Boyish, but it works. :D

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How about the ever-popular Crossdresser's Cheer?
"Rah, Rah, Rah...We wanna wear a BRA!"
ok...ok...it was lame, I admit... :tongueout

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Originally Posted by Maria D

Given the relative lack of 'out' CDs, those that seek to repress you one way or another, for instance fear of being beaten up, seem to be managing to control quite a number of people, don't they?

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Well, I don't personally feel that I'm being "repressed", so let's not make that sound like a blanket statement, ok?
But yes, you're correct that the number of closeted CD's far outnumbers the "out" CD's. And, do you really honestly feel that's likely to change anytime soon?

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You are essentially saying 'conform or take the risk'. That is control.

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Essentially, yes...I believe that's basically how the cookie crumbles.
Live your life how you choose to live it. But, be prepared to take responsibility for your actions. A little common sense goes a long way.
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[SIZE="4"]Lady SMO / Donna O,
Thank you.[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by BlueKat

Essentially, yes...I believe that's basically how the cookie crumbles.
Live your life how you choose to live it. But, be prepared to take responsibility for your actions. A little common sense goes a long way.
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Then we have a fundamental difference of opinion.
Given the definition of risk, yes almost everything in life is a risk. Leaving the bed is a risk, but then, staying in bed is too.
What I do not agree with is the idea that you doing or being something is justification for their actions. It is THEY who are responsible for their actions, not you. THAT is personal responsibilty, not shifting the blame onto the victim.
I hear the 'take responsibility' thing a lot regarding women raped 'because' they wore pretty clothes, and it's utter rubbish.

My 0.0108352 pennies worth :)

OK, how about an Activism 101 primer for those of us who need a little instruction? I've always been a "don't make waves" person. You tend to get emotionally and verbally beat up if you do. But I'm done with that. I've accepted that my thoughts and opinions are just as valid as anyone else's. And now I know I have the right to express them. (Off topic: that's the first time I've said that and meant it. Gee, those years of therapy just keep paying off, don't they?)

So what do I do? Get the USA Today and write in anytime I see something that needs commenting on? ("Dear editor: I think your readers should know that the man pleasuring himself in the library while wearing a dress is not typical of the CD community." Our local paper is so slanetd it's a miracle it doesn't fall over, BTW. I don't read it anymore.) Write my representatives at the various levels and say what? And what else?

I'm being serious. I never did anything like this before because I was never really worth anything before. So I'm 38 years behind the times.

I'm not out yet to my family yet but I will be Friday (Thursday night actually). Long story for another post. I plan to wait a bit before considering coming out at work. So I still need to be a bit careful yet.

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Originally Posted by Maria D

Then we have a fundamental difference of opinion.

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Yes we do...so what? This isn't the Stepford Wives, afterall. :p

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What I do not agree with is the idea that you doing or being something is justification for their actions.

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I don't believe I ever said it "justified" their actions. I never said it was "right" or "fair" either. It is what it is. Much of life is not fair.

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I hear the 'take responsibility' thing a lot regarding women raped 'because' they wore pretty clothes, and it's utter rubbish.

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Hmmm..."pretty" or "****ty" ? There is a difference. I do believe if a woman dresses "****ty" in public, she definitely increases her chances of bad circumstances happening.
Take responsibility. Make wise choices.

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Originally Posted by Toyah

With you all the way on this Christina Nicole.
I really dont get the we must make a stand thing, OK if you are TS you have a very fair point but if you are a guy in a dress it really is not a lifestyle thing its just a bit of fun and if it isnt then WTF you doing it for.

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There are plenty of transgender people who live full time without transitioning, they are not just a bloke in a frock they are doing it for real as much as someone who is transitioning would do. Perhaps for some it is fun but for people who are transgenderist it is not a case of dressing up for fun even though they are not transitioning!

I am all the way with the idea that no one should have to hide if they don't want to, why should people conform to please others and pander to the whims of conservatives in society?

Making a stand is good because the more you hide the more it implies that its your 'dirty' secret when in fact you have done nothing wrong :) I just don't get all this self loathing I read about on here, so many of you think you are somehow unworthy and then you berate people who have the guts to say 'i'm out and proud'. Hiding it and condeming yourself just feeds the transphobic attitudes of society. Don't let these conservatives win, in the UK we have made good moves towards affirming the rights of gay couples through civil partnerships and for transsexuals through the gender recognition act: it took protests, complaints and campaigns to get this recognised. The EU was our saving grace because they declared UK law in violation of human rights and it all went on from there.

Bit of militancy thats what I like to see - being a proud socialist and all that ;)

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Most people think
Great god will come from the skies
Take away everything
And make everybody feel high
But if you know what life is worth
You would look for yours on earth
And now you've seen the light
You stand up for your rights

Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up, don't give up the fight

St. Bob Marley, of course. And old Bob has a point - at least for some of us. When I finally made the "what the hell" decision (and granted, it was in San Francisco so it was not exactly bold or revolutionary) I first sought out support groups. But I did not need support. I needed shopping, dinner, and dancing. In that order. But I did see a need for some CD representation on the Transgender Civil Rights Board here. It was all TS, and that is fine, they have different needs, and they can't hide. But we CDs were part of this umbrella so I stood up and was appointed. At first they were a bit unsure, after all I pass about as good as a VW Bug going up a mountian. But I made myself of value, particulary in reaching out to TGs involved in the Sex Industy where they had - as you might imagine - frequent encounters with the police.

About the only true CD cause I could push was for unisex bathrooms and the phrasing in the law that one should use the correct room for your presentation. Not a big deal. But its good. The big deal turned out to be how much it changed me. I went from being an academic always using the correct fork and never using bad grammer & being a closet CD more or less - to a person who went out to some of the worst places (I didn't even know such places existed) and dealing with people who I had no idea even existed, much less ever encountered. Them girls learned me a lesson or two no doubt. I got a master's course in TG for sure.

Its been good for me. I love to dance at raves and techno clubs, and where a fifty year old guy is looked upon as some sort of odd freak, a CD is just the belle of the ball. So that has been good.

But its not for everyone. And perhaps for some it will be later, just not now. I only did this once my kids were in college, once my wife had run away with her 28year old BF. Once I left Iowa for home in SF. Once I quit teaching at the university and found myself back in the theatre, which has always been my first love. ("we all have major changes in life that are more or less a second chance." Harrison Ford)

I don't regret that it took so long. Everything takes as long as it takes after all. There is a time for everything. So for some that time is not yet here. For others, it will never come in.

Do not push people out. That is bad. Let them find thier own way, choose thier own day. If some of us are out, setting a good example, fighting for political change, or educating, then that's good. Do that. Thrive in it. Perhaps others might join us later. Or not. Either way, its THIER decision, not ours.

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Originally Posted by BlueKat

I don't believe I ever said it "justified" their actions.

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Yes, you did. Specifically, you said 'You just have to accept the consequences of your actions.' and also 'Take responsibility. Make wise choices.'
By shifting the responsibility onto the (for example) CDer, you absolve the (for example) beater of blame. That's exactly why placing responsibility is important. Many wife beaters say 'she made me', many rapists say 'she led me on', many sex offenders say 'well she shouldn't have dressed like that, she was asking for it' the fundamental fact is that no one is responsible for other people's actions.
That does not deny that bad things happen, but whether I get kicked to death in a dark alley or in broad daylight in a town centre, as happens, the kicker is responsible.

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Hmmm..."pretty" or "****ty" ? There is a difference. I do believe if a woman dresses "****ty" in public, she definitely increases her chances of bad circumstances happening.

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Perhaps she should scratch her face off too, since being pretty might increase her chances? She's got the right to be whatever she wants if it's legal. Making it her fault if bad things happen is just wrong.

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Originally Posted by Maria D

Yes, you did. Specifically, you said 'You just have to accept the consequences of your actions.' and also 'Take responsibility. Make wise choices.' By shifting the responsibility onto the (for example) CDer, you absolve the (for example) beater of blame.

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I guess you can take whatever you want out of what I said, that's your right. :straightface:
The fact is...Never did I say, nor would I say, anyone would be "justified" if they decided to beat the snot out of someone for crossdressing.
Be an adult. Take responsibility for the consequences of your actions. Why is that so hard to understand?

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Making it her fault if bad things happen is just wrong.

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You sound like you want some sort of GUARANTEE that nothing bad will ever happen to anyone who CD's in public, no matter how they act, or dress.

In a perfect world...Yes, maybe that's the way things OUGHT TO BE.
In a perfect world...Yes, maybe this sort of GUARANTEE would be possible.
Newsflash: This isn't a perfect world. :straightface:

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Originally Posted by tvgirl4fun

I've always said the best type of advocacy you can do is to go somewhere "dressed". And I mean, the regular (non LGBT) places and events, where you get to intermingle with the general public. Jaie

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[SIZE="4"]I couldn't agree with you more, Jaie.

Gennee[/SIZE]