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I think sometimes male-to-female crossdressers can, in fact, be insulting. I work very hard to make sure I look attractive and confident when en femme, which is to say I want to be respectful of myself. As a result, I feel I am respectful towards women.
From my experiences, from all I've seen, women seem to LOVE us. I have both a GG friend and a SO GF (somewhat) friend, and both are fascinated with me and my cross-dressing friends. When me and my SISTERS groups go out, we always get girls who want to have their picture taken with us, or dance with us.
Like I said they love us, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we are men who WANT to understand what they go through.
Think of it. A majority of women have husbands, SOs, or BF, who pay little attention to them and never do a thing to try and understand them when they present themselves as women.
We want to go shopping with them.
What women wouldn't want a husband like that.
Thanks to everyone who has responded to my original post. I've really enjoyed reading your responses. I really hope we hear from more genetic women, too. While I don't view my crossdressing as a mockery or insult to women, my wife does on at least some level. It's instructive to hear other peoples' take on this topic and helps my understanding of where my wife is coming from.
Thanks again and I look forward to more of your thoughtful responses.
Sigh....
I really am saddened that this thread has continued on so. Let's try a little perspective...
"Youth is wasted on the young"
Many crossdressers attitudes towards women not dressing the way they themselves would like to is no better nor worse than that statement.
"Femininity is wasted on the feminine"
Look at that sentence. It's all a matter of longing for what others have. Plenty of women don't care about the attributes and/or advantages that they have that I might desire. They take them for granted or they just don't put a lot of personal value on them. And fair enough too.
Kids at the skatepark a decade ago feeling insulted that some guys in their 20's and 30's turn up in baggy pants and with boards are no different from women upset because some CD has dressed up in womens clothes. Now if those older guys are not yet very good at skating or look less suited to the clothes the kids are more likely to be insulted and the same is true of women if the CD is less good at what they are doing or less well suited to it. And if the older skaters are mixing fashion that is 'not the done thing' amongst younger skaters well that's even more likey to be insulting.. and again if the CD goes against current fashion...
Some people who are goths year-round get upset with people who dress like that only for weekends or special occasions or halloween. Those who find goth a deep personal culture might get awefully upset with those who treat it as just a passing fashion. Likewise people who like dressing that way on halloween might feel it dreadfully inappropriate for the goth to dress that way on any other day. Or they might think it's ok for clubbing but not for going to the supermarket or to church.
You can see the same pattern again and again.
It's not a deliberate parody for goodness sake, it's just personal expression. At best this is serious emotional immaturity!
And there is a darker side to this...
Those who are physically more masculine looking are more likely to be considered 'insulting'. Those who are more fantasy or fetishistic in their dress again more likely to be 'insulting'. Those who aren't just breaking gender roles but also age roles. Those who don't try and pass. Those who are more androgynous. Those who co-opt negative stereotypes and turn them into affirmatative archetypes.. all are more likely to be considered 'insulting'.
So in this we are dancing around, and sometimes right over, the edge of sexism, ageism, ablism (in that someone born less able to pass for whatever reason, is discriminated against) and downright transphobia!
Just defining women in a way to then be able to define what would be insulting to 'women' could itself be downright sexist.
Not all GG's would fit other GGs ideas of what it is to be female for goodness sake!
At best this could be emotional immaturity and ignorance, on the part of some of the CDs with their atitudes to what most commonly constitutes womanhood and femininity perhaps (the trouble is determining if they are reflecting and embodying sexist stereotypes or are in fact responding to powerful cultural archetypes, especially misunderstood sexual ones), but particularly on the part of those who feel personally insulted by another persons inability to meet their standards or represent their personal idea of being female.
At worst this can be downright disgustingly bigoted.
If an 80 year old man dresses in a manner more commonly assosiated with an 18 year old girl and someone takes offense... that person might need to take a long hard look at their own sexism and agism!
Many of us dress to feel good about ourselves. If wanting to feel better about oneself is selfish, then I admit, I am selfish.
The attitude that says crossdressing is insulting is like saying a christmas tree is insulting. There really is not fundamental reason behind it, but on some level, somewhere, someone finds an ornamented pine tree offensive. Same on this level, a man dressed as woman is offensive.
The thing is many of the crossdressers on this forum seem to exhibit many
female qualities. Many of us are:
nurturing
compassionate
empathetic
kind
helpful
emotional
These qualities can be learned, but more often than not they are innate to our selves. Then again, there are probably some crossdressers who do not exhibit these qualities. And yet, even again, I know many women who are completely the antithesis of the above mentioned list.
All of us, male and female alike, are all good people and want only the best for others. "For our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's future, and we are all mortal." If wanting to be a woman to make ourselves feel good about life is the way we show it, so be it. That is how I will proceed.
The concept that people should not be insulted or offended is honorable. Nevertheless, many people are. Recognizing this fact is a critical step when seeking a future of tolerance. I've said it before and I'll say it again - Individuality is an important component of our identity. Individualism is a religion of self and is ultimately destructive.
Put another way, the world ain't all about you. It's about you being part of the world.
I agree with Dee talbot and the other GG's who have commented on this topic, I especially agree with Dee on the subject of having sex with a man to feel like a woman, I do not see how a cder can truely feel like a woman by having sex with a man, I am mtf transgendered and I do not want to have sex with a man. I know I will never know 100% of what it is like feel like a woman, I love and emulate real GG's, they are truely wonderful human beings, and I hope I dont insult or degrade women and I am sorry if I do. I dress modestly, to me looking like a **** is not feminine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Talbot
I also agree that we should not say women who do not wear dresses and are not feminine, that is very hypocritical, we have no right to say that, because we are not wearing pants all the time, there is more to femininity than wearing dresses. There are women that look quite sexy in pants. Just because a woman is wearing pants and a shirt it does not make her less of a woman.
For me I wish I had a female body, I have alot of feminine behaviors, and feminine legs and thats it. sorry I am off topic on that last sentence.
I had an unfortunate encounter last week when I was at the 7-11 when a woman came in and was offended by the way I was dressed, she asked the cashier to call the police to have me arrested for impersonating a woman. she told the cashier that I was scary looking, the cashier told her no she was not going to call the police, and that I was not doing anything to hurt anybody, and that she trusts me. (the cashier and I have become good friends over the past few month's.) The next day the woman contacted the owner of the store and told him that I was mocking women and she wants me banned from the store, the owner asked the cashier if she has a problem with me coming in dressed as a woman, she told him it does not bother her. He told her that I was still welcome to come in the store and that it is not an issue with him. he told the cashier that some peaple are unhappy and are offended by everything. I am glad to have the cashier as a friend, she is a wonderful woman. I personally do not intend to mock women, and I am sorry that the woman feels that way. that was a tense moment that day when that woman wanted to call the police.
I 110% get her point and fully agree and I am a genetic female.Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaMarie
It is NOT an act of honoring women that men dress like women.
It is for the more superficial reasons you mention.
That is not wrong or evil but yes, I get her point.
I've tried starting discussions about this but most CD'ers don't want to look deeper than below the surface (or at least that's the message their reactions here have given me).
I am an understanding "GG"; however, I do get her point.
Kew's-2
Quote:
Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy GG
kewt, you've just touched upon my next "thinkin" question...and I would love to have this kind of discussion with you and pick your brain ;)
*hugs*
Zara
Lets face it. For every argument that could be applied to CDers being an insult to Women and womanhood, there is another that could be applied to CDers being an insult to Men and manhood.
Take defensiveness out of the equation. Who of us would do it as an affront to the opposite sex? Oh I do agree that for the most part we do not flatter women in terms of the success (and lack thereof) of our emulation. But not by design.
A woman who looks at crossdressing from her world may see lots of wrongs. A woman who can look at crossdressing from his world can surely see the personal challenges and turmoil that would drive someone to take this challenging path that must (and do) exist.
But Dee said it better.I missed the additional pages of this thread on first draft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Talbot
I don't want to hijack this thread. To suggest that I do this for superficial reasons tears me apart. I don't presume to know why I do this, but it is not superficial. I would love to discuss this (amicably) if you care to expound your thoughts in a new thread (or by pm).Quote:
Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy GG
I have to say that most of us here emulate woman as we do this because of admiration, We wish that we could be a woman and so the closest and quick way is to be who we are here. We all try our best to look the part and try we do. A lot of woman buy magazines for fashion and they try to copy will say other woman, Why is is that woman will buy clothing with designer names and the answer is to look as good as the designing woman. I believe with all Great respect to all GGs out there that they should take what we do as a compliment as we not only admire them but try to copy them in every way.I remeber being with a female who enjoyed me being a CDM as I was very understanding and she also said to me that it was nice having a friend that was a live in to share with everyday. Joann:heehee::love:
This is a tough one! My wife has known about my dressing for years but still kind of looks the other way when I do it. Kind of like "if I don't see it it dosen't happen".Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaMarie
I do think that some women just have been brought up that guys are supposed to act one way and girls another. When we invade their territory they get a little uncomfortable.
Fortunatly for me my wife likes my shaved legs (from being a professional cyclist for 17 years!) and likes it when I am clean shaven every where, but when I dress it makes her almost freeze up and get really quiet.
I guess that we just have to do our best to try and change their minds about us and why we do what we do!
:kiss:
From a GG married to a CD (recent revelation) - I'm not sure this is as much about insulting as it may be competition. A list of what women face all their lives and list men face all their lives. If it offers insight...that is all we can hope for I think.
*I use the word "man" and "men" as a general term.
Women are supposed to dress up, shave our legs and all that from a young age to catch the eye of a man. It does not mean we will not have our hearts broken in the process.
Men are supposed to show they can dress rugged and nice at the same time also showing a woman they are desirable as a husband. They are brought up with the 'hunter & gather' mindset and have to exhibit this to the men that surround them in their lives. Sometimes the expectation to "be a man" is as difficult as expectations to "be attractive to get a man".
Women venture out of the home and most must work as well. We end up having to compete with other women for the same job - and men too. Depending on the job it rarely comes to competency but the thinning of the herd comes down to one's sex. It's a harsh reality no matter how much people say "we've come along way" in that department.
Men don't always want the jobs they have - they get them because its just easier being a man than to be able to run a daycare center or something far more nurturing. Men are overwhelmed at the choices presented. Math skills, problem solving, delegating et al are supposed to be easy to them opening more job choices.
Women begin to have children. Most become very defensive overall - the demand of that instinct to protect their children including providing food, shelter, and clothing kicks in. Its all or nothing and again, other women will judge the Mom on how she is doing - whether she asked for that input or not.
Men are invited into their own children's lives by the bearer of their children. It does not matter how much they love them, they simply are excluded aside from pure exhaustion to change one more diaper for the day. This tips the scales away from the nurture man. They only get to show their son how to pee standing up, they don't get to give advice to their daughters how to not look like a tramp or too much like a tomboy.
As life changes a woman's body this seemingly endless propaganda to stay as young looking and energetic as possible is every nook and cranny of life. Menopause is horrific. So is the ever increasing lung cancer and breast cancer numbers among women and for f's sake! Women have to look good dying! Looking how you feel is again, out of the question by just looks from other women or looking at those who can pull off jeans, a blazer and heels not looking uncomfortable and under 5 minutes prep time can deflate a good day. Everything is a struggle...including feeling and being female.
If the wife stayed at home or worked part time, entering into the work force at an older age is defeating with every interview. You need a current education and employment history.
Men enter menopause (oh yes! they do too!) the hair falls out from the top, grows out of the ears or new eyeglass frames have to be bought to accommodate for eyebrows that could ensnare a wild boar. The tummy bulges and flab appears where it never did before. Men begin to discuss the latest pill on the market to make love longer or whenever - that was NEVER a problem before! The wind could blow and shwing! Now it stares sadly at the floor in hurricane force winds.
During war times this is even more pronounced. I think back to my Aunt who was a Nurse during the Korean war and my father (I was adopted) who became a CG Commander and the war they had *during* the war. My Aunt was the best field nurse and received medals, of course her younger brother had to be better than that in his mind. Grandma sewed clothing for soldiers and many of her friends worked in factories building warcraft. They were good at what they did but as soon as the husbands and sons came home, these women were relegated to being a "housewife". They were taught not only to be women but able to do everything in case the husband did not come home. Grandpa worked on diesel engines and did the rest of his life. He was never told to go home because his services were no longer needed.
You see, the war of the sexes has been going on for a very long time as has this weird societal influence. Those of us that are older were brought up very differently than the 20-30 somethings of today. They seem to share more and more tolerant of we perceive as differences. There are still some barriers and square boxes but overall they tend to use what talents they have together. I see this in my son and the girls he dates - he's had a very diverse sexual upbringing because I didn't want him in a square box. I find this conversation with many mothers of his age, we were adamant our son's be more sensitive to discrimination against them and others and to defend or break walls when they see them.
But for us...we are stuck in a way. As an older wife I feel my husband is a competition to not only earn a good income but have the body strength needed to do pretty much anything that needs to be done. He can change his looks if he wants - I'm stuck trying to desperately look remotely feminine.
It takes me an hour to wear a good matching outfit having changed clothes 5 times. It looks great on the hanger at the store, it looks like hell on me. Make up is difficult to get "right". Now he wants me to teach him how to do all that - waaaaaaiiiiiitttttt!!!!! I can barely do this myself and had to watch other women, then use books, then use the internet to get something remotely close that shows off my natural curves and facial features.
This has taken me years to figure out. My body, as a female, has changed so many times I can barely keep up. Now you, a man, want me to teach you how to look as good if not better in a short span of time?
I think if 'our' men took the time to learn on their own, to not try to compete with us but compliment us then there wouldn't be such a division of emotions. If our man does not over emphasise a feminine pose, I think we'd feel less weirded out. Only paid models pose like that - you ever notice your wife sit on the edge of the couch, back arched, head tossed back every single time she sits down? No. Not unless you paid her and even then, has she shied from the camera? Most will, do and have so you need to figure out what kind of life your wife has had first *before* dressing up.
Find a way to take the competition out of it. Find a way for her to be doing something she feel she is truly capable of outside the home and I'll bet there would be less resistance. There are probably a few men thinking right now about the kind of life their wives have had and their reaction when they came to them as CD'er.
This is really the one time us wives and SO's need for you as men to 'problem solve'. While it is a mostly foisted male trait, we need your help to do that first before the skirt and heels go on. Buy us spa days. Buy us massages. Buy us whatever it is you know we like that is rare and we've always said makes us feel more female. Indulge us and you will be indulged in return.
Really, you will.
Every time I get called sir I'm insulted.
But the world is made up of individuals. All making individual decisions. Interacting in complex patterns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreamfor
And individualism does not preclude altruism. In fact most individualists I know are fiercely altruistic.
Also putting the comfort of the community before the rights and needs of minorities and individuals can be a recipe for horrors.
So do I but its usually because I answered the phone immediately after waking up or have a head cold ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa Golightly
[SIZE="3"]Is Cding insulting to women? I think it depends on the individual woman! Some dress in an overt caricature of a woman and I even find that offensive but there are many CDs that want to absorb the fine attributes of women. Not just the look or the outwardly physical but the wholistic propereies of being female - personality traits, emotional make up and reactions, The warmth and nurturing qualities. The better natures of being female. Woman have a natural inclination to these things Cd men for the most part are gentler and more in tune with these things but we are still men and there is a steep learning curve. The dressing is a beginning, If i look like a woman and begin feeling feminine my natural course is to try to discover the fine points of being female! All out of total respect and love of women.
Now I an certain that Cding is insulting, offensive and threatening to men who don't dress to the point of violence!
Kelsy[/SIZE]
At the end of the day I am not insulted, I am however frequently amused by the fact, that so many of you appear to need your heads removing from another part of your anatomy.
You may wear that which is deemed by society to be female clothing, but never ever will you ever come close to being. It has taken generations upon generations for us to evolve into what we are today, patterns handed down through generations of genes, and so you remain (CD's) males wearing dresses with not a clue.
Now this is just my :2c: from my side of the fence
I think to some, it can be - whether that 'objectification' is a good thing, is another matter..Quote:
Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy GG
If this was just superficial, we could choose not to do it. Yet however hard we try, the vast majority of us find it is a very deep part of us - it's 'hard wired', just like having red hair or blue eyes, or being left-handed?Quote:
It is for the more superficial reasons you mention.
Don't you think the ones who find us threatening, are the ones who are rebelling against a desire in themselves, just like homophobia? :) :devil:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelsy
Those who are sure of their own masculinity don't see us as a threat..
if i may :- to answer the question i have to say no ..
IMHO i feel it's about attitude and respect is the key ..think twice post or say once .. what we say can be hurtful and sometimes we don't have a clue
Some one once said Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :hugs:
Angie
I think you're so right about that. My ex wife would ask that I only shave my legs certain times in the year. But for me leg shaving is the first and most essential part of any cross dressing experience. Now that we're divorced I'm clean shaven almost all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisa_e_love
So Jess has a clue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess
Unfortunately, I read few others who do.
Listen up. Being a woman has NOTHING to do with clothing. Being feminine has NOTHING to do with clothing.
When you put on a dress, it does not make you feminine. It makes you a man in a dress. That's what CDing is all about. This is a CDing forum. CDing means wearing the clothes of the oposite sex. This is perfectly OK. And as I said earlier, many women actually find that endearing and kinda cute.
BUT, trying to say you are more feminine, just because you put on a dress (and everything else that goes with it), IS insulting to women. There is NOTHING inherently FEMININE about wearing a dress. Women are feminine when they are NAKED for goodness sake.
Being a woman is not easy. You have to deal with lower pay, expectations of running a household AND working, expectations of attractiveness, not being listened to, and sexual harassment EVERYWHERE you go, just to name a few. Having your man say he is becoming more feminine by putting on a dress can easily be viewed as insulting to women. The clothing is SUCH a small part of womenhood as to be ludicrous.
Start with being more empathetic, more nurturing, more helpfull, more kind, more understanding, gentler, nicer, softer, more friendly, and considerate. Start by remembering birthdays, wipe noses, change diapers, fold clothes, cook dinner, clean the house, buy your own damn clothes, and then go off to work for less money.
There is NOTHING wong with wanting to wear a dress. It can be a lot of fun. That's not what is insulting. What is insulting, is trying to claim some aspect of femininity and womanhood by dressing up in our clothes.
Lovies,
Stephenie
Hm :straightface:
I guess the insulting point is the usual "I am better than you" expressed as an generalization. That's not TG specific, that's general bad attitude.
I am sorry to say Stephanie, you are doing the same, by "defending" women the way you do. And I don't know whom you do a favor.
That's plain stereotyping. Neither all women do nor all men don't. Neither women nor men do it all at once and always ... at least I don't know any.Quote:
Start with being more empathetic, more nurturing, more helpfull, more kind, more understanding, gentler, nicer, softer, more friendly, and considerate. Start by remembering birthdays, wipe noses, change diapers, fold clothes, cook dinner, clean the house, buy your own damn clothes, and then go off to work for less money.
That's a generalization, with all pitfalls generalizations have.Quote:
There is NOTHING wong with wanting to wear a dress. It can be a lot of fun. That's not what is insulting. What is insulting, is trying to claim some aspect of femininity and womanhood by dressing up in our clothes.
Maybe I would have agreed with "clothes don't make you a woman", but saying it is insulting to "claim some aspects" is an insult in itself, because it IS some aspects, though not the whole bundle. It might be debatable what else is needed to earn the label "woman". That will depend on the definition. Clothes are certainly not enough, but remembering birthdays and cooking aren't either.
I mostly agree with Dee Talbot. And others, that clothes don't make you feminine, just as clothes or a hairy body don't make you masculine. And it is a mistake to look at a GG or a male & pass judgement,"oh SHE isn't feminine..." or "HE isn't masculine..." most of us have both traits within us. At any moment a person can appear on the surface to be at odds with a stereotyped role.
If people say "all CD's are..." or "all GG's are..." etc., they foster ignorance which is divisive & leads to hatred. People are individuals.