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That's a great answer Lisa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa Golightly
Unfortunately there will always be sections of the general community that won't accept anything, whether its being gay, or part of any minority group really. Just my :2c:
Would love to be able to just wander relatively seamlessly and unnoticed in the open world dressed as I pleased....maybe one day :daydreaming:
As a social conservative deep in the closet. I have had to come to terms with being a CD. So I have spent much time thinking about how the least understanding of us could progressively come to accept this.
The path of much resistance such as through the gay example of California prop 8 by being self centered and pushy was not successful. Many people find these tactics extremely annoying and resisted. In that context how can we ask others to respect our values and beliefs if we do not respect their long standing traditional values and beliefs? I advocate a path towards less resistance.
A CD with a linebacker body, a face like John Wayne going to a mall wearing an evening gown will create more societal resistance than a CD who quietly goes out at night to a house party or club or dresses up for a renaissance fair for that matter. By taking a stepping stone approach by asking for a little at at a time while maintaining respect for the societal status quo. Mutual understanding and empathy will be more likely to be achieved than through pushy behavior by drag queens.
Society will never accept CDs until CDs accept themselves. Gays accept themselves whereas CDs don't. That is the disadvantage.:2c:
You know Jamie001 I always wondered,
An alcoholic must admit to himself that he is an alcoholic before he can get cured.
Do we as Transgenders have to admit to ourselves that we are Transgendered before we can come to terms that this is the way it is and there is no fix.
Seems that some are in denial and have a hard time coming to terms with their Transgender.
Hugs,
Tamera
Unfortunately I do not see widespread change in the attitudes of the general population, maybe in small pockets, particular communities but not a acceptance of cross dressers world wide.
Fiona :hugs:
Yes I do.....I think it already has....but gender bending no!!!!
yes they will the problem is many of us are still in hiding and until we all get out there in the real world nothing will change. maybe very slowly
Ok we have all heared it here hundreds of times...Women can dress in clothing known for men..Why is it they can do it but we can't?? Your answer with all due respect to the FTM forum and I whole heartedly mean that.. ASK THEM!!!
You will find very few of these members agreeing with you... Why because it is not a dressing issue and all about the gender bending issues..Right guys? ^5
If more inroads can be made into conservative culture on this issue, including forging bi-partisan support it would vastly speed up change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie32
Self centred? While I'm in another country and there may have been things i didn't see I sure didn't see any self-centredness nor can I conceive how a call for equality can be self-centred on principle. Surely it is a call for people to be true to the notions of liberty and equality for all? Aren't those traditional conservative values in the USA?Quote:
The path of much resistance such as through the gay example of California prop 8 by being self centered and pushy was not successful.
As for pushy, history is filled with examples where people had to stand up directly to fight for liberty and equality. Much of womens rights were gained by suffragettes marching for example. Isn't fighting directly and openly for liberty and equality also traditionally conservative American values?
Indeed it can be true that sometimes people dig theur heels in. But some people will just ignore the softly-softly approach too. As for respecting traditon... monarchy was also a tradition. Slavery too. Many traditions should be respected, plenty should be utterly destroyed. And plenty a person need not share for another to still enjoy.Quote:
Many people find these tactics extremely annoying and resisted. In that context how can we ask others to respect our values and beliefs if we do not respect their long standing traditional values and beliefs? I advocate a path towards less resistance.
For example a gay person having a non-traditional marriage does not harm a straight persons traditional one unless the straight person is really a closet gay and it is only the benefits of marriage that keeps them in it or unless the only value to the traditional marriage is in not letting others have it. Otherwise the traditional marriage is in no way harmed by the existence of the non-traditional one. Just like a Protestants faith should not be harmed by their being a Catholic Church in the same town as the Protestant one they attend.
Sure, but if that linebacker wins acceptance they succeed far more for equality and liberty. Goths didn't wear just a little black or discrete skulls. The less extreme dressing Goths benefit from the acceptance that the most extreme have gained. Greater equality that way.Quote:
A CD with a linebacker body, a face like John Wayne going to a mall wearing an evening gown will create more societal resistance than a CD who quietly goes out at night to a house party or club or dresses up for a renaissance fair for that matter.
That may work, or it may not. How much respect is the societal status quo due when it is in the wrong? Also, how moral is such an action when it involves not just personal self-sacrifice but knowing sacrificing others?Quote:
By taking a stepping stone approach by asking for a little at at a time while maintaining respect for the societal status quo.
Yet the uncompromising Goths have won substantial acceptance, for them and for others. But if they had been restrained for the sake of the less extreme Goths... One group having to wait, having to suffer further for the sake of others, those who will gain the benefit of acceptance and the unaccepting group whose fault is the problem in the first place (because surely if the founding enlightenment principles of equality and liberty for all were followed from the outset it'd be a non-issue), then where is the equality in that? The fairness in that?Quote:
Mutual understanding and empathy will be more likely to be achieved than through pushy behavior by drag queens.
And vigorous assertion of equality and liberty is different from being pushy. George III was hardly receptive to gentle requests for independance for example.
That doesn't mean there aren't better ways of getting messages accross. Sure. But equality for CDs but not DQs and DKs? Wouldn't that make us bad, make us guilty of the same injustice? And worse make us traitors to the principles of equality and liberty that for centuries have been the foundation of the post-monarchy world and the very principles we use to back our own claim? Wouldn't that invalidate our own claim to our rights, our equality, our freedom?
Leaving drag queens and linebackers behind, asking them to stay quiet and suffer on the behalf of those more passable, that just seems utterly wrong to me.
Sure it might be easier... for those who would benefit from it! It'd be harder for those who make the sacrifice though!
Personally I don't think that would be a fair request to make of others. That we may have to find the way to get progress without leaving them behind.
I imagine that a time will come when society will accept CDs. It will probably be a slow progression of kinds of clothing that will OK. Just look at what is happening now: men can wear tights and bras. However, I do wonder what it will all look like. I am afraid that the clothing will cease to be exclusively women's and become fairly generic. I mean, women can now wear pants al they like, but the pants are usually women's pants. Can you imagine a time when men cam wear dresses but these will be men's dresses?
If that happens, I wonder if CDing will simply become a rare thing because it will have lost its aura of femininity.
I work as a server at Big Boy and take orders from all kinds of people. No one cares that I am a TG. Some ask questions, and I answer them. Some even ask me to be their server on their next visit. And the tips, well that just tells me that I am doing a GOOD job and the patrons appreciated my service.
So every person I meet is another person that gets aquainted with the TG world.
Hugs,
Tamera
Now that is awesome!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamera
Your helping people get used to TG and your also living proof that there is already much greater acceptance than most of us can even imagine!
Batty
You need to be more concise in your arguments for them to be read by others. So I will address but a few.
[/QUOTE]As for pushy, history is filled with examples where people had to stand up directly to fight for liberty and equality. Isn't fighting directly and openly for liberty and equality also traditionally conservative American values?[/QUOTE]
With the world economy in shambles, and troops pulling out of Iraq. I think the world specifically America is tired of fighting and debating. Politically Obama is moving to the center, and the Republicans nominated McCain who was a moderate.
[/QUOTE]That may work, or it may not. How much respect is the societal status quo due when it is in the wrong? Also, how moral is such an action when it involves not just personal self-sacrifice but knowing sacrificing others?[/QUOTE]
On what authority do you have to say and dictate what is wrong with mainstream society? Most of us like it just fine, and find comments like that extremely arrogant. As for personal sacrifice I'm a closeted CD. I don't presume to tell my family and my community that I'm right and they are wrong. I'd be laughed at if I did that en femme.
[/QUOTE]Leaving drag queens and linebackers behind, asking them to stay quiet and suffer on the behalf of those more passable, that just seems utterly wrong to me.[/QUOTE]
What about the rest of the public's right to not witness disturbing behavior. Weather it be somebody in a crowded movie theater who doesn't shower for a month, or a couple making out in a public park in full view of children. Most of society demonstrates discretion because it is polite. We are part of that society as a whole. Those rules applies to us too.
[/QUOTE]Sure it might be easier... for those who would benefit from it! It'd be harder for those who make the sacrifice though! Personally I don't think that would be a fair request to make of others. That we may have to find the way to get progress without leaving them behind.[/QUOTE]
We make that sacrifice by hiding our femme selves every day. Its a hardship you get used too. Whether it is morally right or not is not the issue. I'm not making the request that people change their behavior. I am offering an alternative method to achieving an greater acceptance by convincing those who find this disturbing and won't buy the civil rights argument. Hence this is a less disruptive means for us to be femme without disruption to our normal lives.
I get long winded when the cognitive symptoms of my legally recognised disability are bad. I do realise your not being intentionally ablist merely reflecting an ablist bias in general internet life but it is alas still ablist. Please see http://caveofrationality.blogspot.co...hroughout.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie32
This has nothing to do with what I was saying. Times being more or less tough have no bearing on what is just or unjust.Quote:
With the world economy in shambles, and troops pulling out of Iraq. I think the world specifically America is tired of fighting and debating. Politically Obama is moving to the center, and the Republicans nominated McCain who was a moderate.
On the authority of logic. Of the obvious and unalterable philosophical hypocracy. To found a system on principles of universal equality and then to extend that equality only to some is to be clearly false, self-refuting and therefore wrong! It's that plain and simple! And just because 'most' like it is no excuse at all.Quote:
On what authority do you have to say and dictate what is wrong with mainstream society? Most of us like it just fine, and find comments like that extremely arrogant. As for personal sacrifice I'm a closeted CD. I don't presume to tell my family and my community that I'm right and they are wrong. I'd be laughed at if I did that en femme.
I see there is much of philosophy you don't understand, from where rights come from (no-one has a right not to witness other people freely exercising their rights. Unless they are literally bailed up, tied down or otherwise retrained but then it is the restraint and not the difference being witnessed that is an abuse of rights) to moral and ethical reasoning. For an understanding of rights you'll be wanting to read up on the enlightenment. Thomas Hobbes Leviathan and then it's criticisms, Hume, Locke, Voltaire etc. (oh and don't miss considering Rawls 'Original Position' 'Veil Of Ignorance' tests when comtemplating any criticisms of any of these) You can find the basics of all these ideas online.Quote:
What about the rest of the public's right to not witness disturbing behavior. Weather it be somebody in a crowded movie theater who doesn't shower for a month, or a couple making out in a public park in full view of children. Most of society demonstrates discretion because it is polite. We are part of that society as a whole. Those rules applies to us too.
Social mores as moral yardstick are easilly refuted. Simply all the greatest wrongs of human history from pedophilloia to slavery to genocide have been socially acceptable ergo social standards are no valid measure of right and wrong. The keyword you'll want to follow on with in your reading is Ethics and you'll see that most ethical reasoning is quite compatible with On The Rights Of Man and subsequent works.
Nope, it's a hardship some get used to. Some are not so able or who choose not to. Consider that when you ponder the Veil Of Ignorance. Your earlier post suggests people with a linebacker physique should remain unseen so that more passable CDs are able to gain acceptance. All to protect the discomfort of some at the expense of the liberty and equality of others, yet all steps towards genuine equality of liberty involves real discomfort that later generations find baffling. See: http://caveofrationality.blogspot.co...ic-stings.htmlQuote:
We make that sacrifice by hiding our femme selves every day. Its a hardship you get used too. Whether it is morally right or not is not the issue. I'm not making the request that people change their behavior. I am offering an alternative method to achieving an greater acceptance by convincing those who find this disturbing and won't buy the civil rights argument. Hence this is a less disruptive means for us to be femme without disruption to our normal lives.
Goths were quite 'disturbing' and now we have Ruby Gloom and Growing Up Creepie on kids tv. And Goth is and always has been filled with gender non-conformity. I see no difference for gaining acceptance between it and TG.
Ok, so, here you go.
As I said, but perhaps to elaborate, you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. Like ANYONE who is different, some people will always hate us. Sometimes it's true, some people who hate us fear us, sometimes they fear being one of us, but sometimes it's just plain ignorance. That kind of ignorance gets passed down, but is not necessarily inborn into people, which means that it can and should be combated. If nothing else, for the most part, that kind of ignorance breeds itself out.
I think that in the end, we will achieve the same kind of acceptance the gay community has. Basically bordering on my "tolerance of convenience" concept. What I mean by that is it all comes down to whether the person recognizes that a) we don't pose any threat to their lifestyle, or that they needn't go out of their way to accepting us, and b) that we have some sort of positive influence on society as a whole, not necessarily because we dress, just that we as people do not drag society down.
That right there is the key for most people: Does this affect me in any real way? Once most people realize that it has no direct bearing on their lives, they stop caring. We see this in everything from gay issues to, unfortunately, September 11th and the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. Though I don't mean to make comparisons to these kinds of tragedies with our otherwise inconsequential issues, it is the point I am trying to make. People (Americans) would generally rather focus on pointless shit than real issues, and so if we take it out of their focus, they'll stop worrying about it.
Exactly my thoughts on this! I couldn't have said it better, so I'll just quote it.:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
I have found it fascinating how the lefties praise their open mindedness yet are so quick to attack anything they disagree with, rather than engage in constructive dialogue with somebody who shares the same goal but whose approach is different.
End
What difference does it make which hand you use?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie32
I am an optimistic person and I think over time that we will be accepted, It takes people witan open mind to help us out. I mean look at what day this is Martin Luther King Jr. Day he had a dream and it came true. I also have that dream that everyone will be treated the same. So I think we will be treated that same.
I've read all the post concerning " Will cross dressing every be accepted". No matter how we feel, it will NEVER be accepted. NEVER. Man has always been considered the hunter/gatherer the warrior and protector. Thats how the male is portrayed and thats how eh always will be portrayed. Wearing a dress while chasing down a deer just don't cut it. even if he can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie32
Being on the far left isn't much different than being on the far right. Neither one is good for the country, as by definition they only cater to half the people. The balance truly is in the middle. Partisan politics and beliefs are tearing our country apart, and are counterproductive to everyone.
I never say never and always avoid always. You can not say never. 100 years ago the thought of a woman in slacks would have been abhorable yet it is the standard. 200 years ago men in make-up tights and pumps were the social cream. Things change. Mel Gibson seemed to be a pretty good "hunter/gatherer" wearing a skirt.Quote:
Originally Posted by sherib
[SIZE="3"]Some people will; others won't. It doesn't stop me from going out in public. I have a chance to educate someone. I have accepted myself and enjoy being myself.
Gennee[/SIZE]
:)
The bravest trans people I've known are TSs who look like that - but transition, anyway - because they've no choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
They'd argue that, because they had no choice, it's not courage - but it certainly takes courage to show yourself, day after day, and make people treat you as you need them to? (I'm thinking in particular of two girls who work as bus drivers - they've both been physically assaulted, in their cabs.)
When we ALL fight for acceptance, we fight for everyone else, not just ourselves.
Mmmm. So you can't make any meaningful argument, then? :sad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie32
That's usually what it means when someone just stoops to insults.. :(
It is my greatest hope that we shall all be accepted for who we are and be loved for our differances