Are we the same?

This is taken from Wikipedia ... in response to battybattybats' claim that I AM transgendered ...
(See post #21 on page 1)

"Cross-dressing is the act of wearing clothing commonly associated with another gender within a particular society.[1] The usage of the term, the types of cross-dressing both in modern times and throughout history, an analysis of the behaviour, and historical examples are discussed in the article below.

Nearly every human society throughout history has distinguished between male and female gender by the style, color, or type of clothing they wear and has had a set of norms, views, guidelines, or even laws defining what type of clothing is appropriate for each gender. Cross-dressing is a behavior which runs significantly counter to those norms and therefore can be seen as a type of transgender behavior. It does not, however, necessarily indicate transgender identity; a person who cross-dresses does not always identify as having a gender different from that assigned at birth.

The term cross-dressing denotes an action or a behavior without attributing or proposing causes for that behavior. Some people automatically connect cross-dressing behavior to transgender identity or sexual, fetishist, and homosexual behavior, but the term cross-dressing itself does not imply any motives. However, referring to a person as a cross-dresser suggests that their cross-dressing behavior is habitual and may be taken to mean that the person identifies as transgendered. The term cross-dresser should therefore be used with care to avoid causing misunderstanding or offense"


In light of this, I would say that although my liking for crossdressing may be seen as a type of transgender behaviour, I myself identify as being male at all times, and therefore I am NOT transgendered.

I hope this clears things up.

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Originally Posted by clayfish

This is taken from Wikipedia ... in response to battybattybats' claim that I AM transgendered ...
(See post #21 on page 1)

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Trouble is it's wiki, a site constantly in conflict and not often considered a 'reliable source'. Note also you are saying transgendered.. the correct term is transgender, not transgendered.

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Cross-dressing is a behavior which runs significantly counter to those norms and therefore can be seen as a type of transgender behavior. It does not, however, necessarily indicate transgender identity; a person who cross-dresses does not always identify as having a gender different from that assigned at birth.

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behaviour and identity... just as I mentioned with gender expression and gneder identity. But wiki is riddled with conflict over binary-normativity etc which bears remembering! The edit war that occured when recent data on neurological causality of transsexuality was added despite being fully cited is a good example of issues with wiki.

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In light of this, I would say that although my liking for crossdressing may be seen as a type of transgender behaviour, I myself identify as being male at all times, and therefore I am NOT transgendered.

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A transsexual does not have a transgender identity either, hence the simple falsification of the issues with the term in the article. A MtF who is strongly transsexual has a womans gender identity, not a transgender identity, however they are a transgender woman because the gender identity does not conform to their birth anatomy and/or birth classification.

Starting to see it now? Your gender identity is indeed male, but you are still a transgender person, one whose gender expression is not stereotypically male despite your male gender identity.

So you are still transgender. Male and transgender!

I guess I'm somewhere between crossdresser and transgender then as I always wanted to have my own breasts and took hormones to get them :) Not really bothered about the downstairs area, I couldn't afford surgery even if I decided I wanted a neo-vagina so I just tuck and cover. I do prefer being dressed en femme and I'd rather be buried as a woman but for the moment I guess I'm sort of happy being a *******, I think that's the accurate term...

What is the fear of being transgender!? IMO There is a whole lot of denial amoung the "I am only a crossdresser" folks! It always makes me laugh when it is said that "I only crossdress because I like the feel of womens clothes" More to it I think! It's like dragging your foot in the "normal" world and flirting with the trangender one. Look everyone is entitled to their own views but personally, I didn't come to terms with myself or find any peace until I started being honest with who I am!

Kelsy

Transgender= An umbrella for both sexes that dress as the other.
Crossdress= A sex that dresses in the clothes of the opposite sex.
Transvestite= One who prsents ones self as the member of the opposite sex.
Transgender= Umbrella.. One who prsents ones self as the member of the opposite sex. A LARGE UMBRELLA INDEED!!
Transexual = One who changes ones sex.
We are Trans Gerdered.. We Are Crossdressers!
One Label that I Hate is Sissy.. Which is a new Label that I can not stand for is SISSY! Errg!

CW: So much anger and bitterness.

Why reply? Because you are the Problem. From what you have posted you are unwilling to find a solution to your problem. Therefore, you are, your own Problem.

With you CW, it is I, CW, is right and the rest of you are wrong.

You hate the thing you are, a crossdresser. You are unwilling to accept what you are, a crossdresser. Therefore, by extension of that hate, you are angry towards those of us who have accepted what we are.

You stand on a false moral high ground, preaching 'I hate being a crossdresser and all crossdressers/transgenders should hate themselves and feel guilty because they will burn in hell!'

If you are scared that crossdressing is not enough for you, and you want to become a woman. Then you have some deeper issues that need to be resolved by professional help.


CW you are a scared and angry person.

Or you are just some sad little flamer trying to wind people up.

Either way, get out and enjoy your life :devil:

Rachael,

You got me so wrong....But nice try..I never said I hate crossdressing I hate the fact I do it...I am also disgusted by the feeling I recieve afterwards..Funny thing is up until now I never said that in this thread..No I am not preaching and if you feel that is what I am doing ,then you must feel some type of quilt yourself because you are taking my words to heart.. I am sorry if you feel my words are direct towards you...That wasn't my attempt I am just suggesting that we are all not the same !!

Try to have a nice day don't let me get to you as I promise your opinion is valued, but I feel that its just that, an opinion..

C.W.

"I never said I hate crossdressing I hate the fact I do it...I am also disgusted by the feeling I recieve afterwards."

cw, this quote of yours is the 'classic' guilt pattern that all people go through. Your patten fits this

Mental Feelings

Desire to crossdress Anxious,Tension,frustration

Action

Crossdress Relief of tension,frustration

Mental

Guilt (crossdressing is wrong) Anger,Denial

Action

Purge or self harm promise never again

Mental

Temp peace or calm

THEN the cycle repeats itself


I guess the big question, Is how do you want to live your life in endless cycles or in peace ?

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Originally Posted by curse within

Rachael,

You got me so wrong....But nice try..I never said I hate crossdressing I hate the fact I do it...I am also disgusted by the feeling I recieve afterwards..Funny thing is up until now I never said that in this thread..No I am not preaching and if you feel that is what I am doing ,then you must feel some type of quilt yourself because you are taking my words to heart.. I am sorry if you feel my words are direct towards you...That wasn't my attempt I am just suggesting that we are all not the same !!

Try to have a nice day don't let me get to you as I promise your opinion is valued, but I feel that its just that, an opinion..

C.W.

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Have I?

Enjoying the way women's clothes made me feel, hating that feeling, angry at myself cus I enjoyed it, feeling guilty for doing it.

That was me 20/30yrs ago, that me was 10yrs ago! 20yrs of depression and a mental breakdown, thats what those feeling give me.

Look in a mirror CW and you'll see everyone of us. We all had or still have those same feeling you have now. You are not the first and you will not be the last to have these feeling of hate, anger, guilt and disgust for wanting to wear women's clothes

How we deal with those feeling is the important thing.

I grow up in 1970's working class Britain. Man were man, Women were only good for 3 things, you call a black what ever you wanted and gays were there to have their heads kick in. Crossdressing was a gay thing not what a real men did.

2009 is a very enlighten time, compared to my childhood.

Like I said before, I've walked a long road. I have learnt to like myself, accept myself. I've told those who mean the most to me about my CDing and I dont deny it when confronted about it. Life is too short to worry about those with a narrow minded opinion.

Acceptence of yourself is the hardest step to take. Once you take that step, the path you take is your choice.

Enjoy Life :devil:

Katie B,

Don't you think that the very act of a man dressing in woman'a clothes is expressing a trans attitude or "condition" with the exception of that act as a purely sexual fetish or tranvestism ?? Is it ever as simple as wanting to just to wear woman's clothes? doesn't there have to be a connecting transgender
physcology!? If we are acting out a fantasy then what exactly is the fantasy?

Kelsy

Regarding issues with the word Transgender, many groups objecting to it (the extremis HBS folks for example) do so because they object to associating TSs which they consider valid with CDs which they do not (though sometimes thats reversed) both of which seem to be basicly transphobic positions anyway!

To ignore the many people who fit in between the extremist positions such groups are shockingly exclusive. The HBS definition of TS requires early-transition and get full SRS asap or their not (and this is there term!) True Transsexuals!

Likewise groups like Tri-Ess with their bias against TSs and any sexuality but the strictest women-only attraction are clearly the mirror opposite of the HBS crowd.

That they often use the very same arguments seems to validate he umbrella term even moreso perhaps.

What a fascinating discussion this is! I can't believe in three pages no one has mentioned the Kinsey scale (spelling?) Quite honestly, I believe that we have way to many terms for different stages of transgenderism. So many people focus on definining which category fits them. Ultimately it doesn't matter, everyone falls into a different part of the spectrum whether we advance along the spectrum is irrelevent. While CW is quite obviously showing all the signs and symptoms of being in the guilt part of the process to acceptance, he is entitled to his own beliefs on the subject. He could also be closer to one side of the scale than the rest of us, which would make it much more difficult to accept. Those of us, who are further along in the scale, are forced to accept it as it is a much bigger part of who we are.

Just my thoughts on it.

*edit* Tri-ess I think has done much more damage to the community, with its non-acceptance of the sexuality aspect than any other group involved in transgender "support" But thats off topic....

[quote=JodyCD;1575238]What a fascinating discussion this is! I can't believe in three pages no one has mentioned the Kinsey scale (spelling?)


Serious researchers will not use Kinsey data, because of the flawed manner in which it was obtained primary sources were Prison Inmates and Voulnteers (self selected) to answer taboo questions. From a Statistical standpoint Kinsey did not follow basic accepted practices for collecting sample data. If you limit the application of the Kinsey finding to Prision populations it might be accurate.

Currently the Kinsey Institute is 'cleansing; the data, and limiting access to researchers with pre-approved research papers. Thats akin to Having a doctor read and agree with a patients self diagnosis before haveing the office visit and tests run.

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

What a fascinating discussion this is! I can't believe in three pages no one has mentioned the Kinsey scale (spelling?) Quite honestly, I believe that we have way to many terms for different stages of transgenderism. So many people focus on definining which category fits them. Ultimately it doesn't matter, everyone falls into a different part of the spectrum whether we advance along the spectrum is irrelevent. While CW is quite obviously showing all the signs and symptoms of being in the guilt part of the process to acceptance, he is entitled to his own beliefs on the subject. He could also be closer to one side of the scale than the rest of us, which would make it much more difficult to accept. Those of us, who are further along in the scale, are forced to accept it as it is a much bigger part of who we are.

Just my thoughts on it.

*edit* Tri-ess I think has done much more damage to the community, with its non-acceptance of the sexuality aspect than any other group involved in transgender "support" But thats off topic....

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Great thoughts ,, Now keeping that in mind and if you know me well enough as to the years of CDing I have under my belt..Just for a moment just try to believe that C.W. has leveled, he has hit the ceiling (maxed)..Now we are all different and have takin our CDing down many roads, expeirmented if you will... I have no female desires I find comfort in not dressing anymore (is that better put?).. I look at it a lot differently now because in the past I had no idea what was going on what made me do it and why, I am not saying today I do, but I understand it better now and that is due to accepting it..

I'm not in denial I know who I am what I do but not fully sure of what causes me to do it ,but control I have found is the key as well as ( don't get mad ) hate... I do not like the fact that I do it..Notice THE I... Not pointing at anyone in this forum just me... I have bouts these past couple of months STRONG ONES but as I go they get weaker and are easier to control..

Now saying that is like going through a 12 step program once you give in you get caught right back in the bottle..I am not forceing this theroy on anyone mind you, as I am useing it upon myself . This is not to get into a pissing contest with anyone and no need for name calling like ..(FLAMER).. BTW I am straight so no big deal ..not that there is anything wrong with being gay tho..

I am not here proding or beating up people for answers or to start my own cult..These threads are for my better understanding and I do get to the point I may not explain them as well but I have been seeing some people who do see things how I do ..Isn't that what we all want ? A better understanding?

Thanks

C.W.

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Originally Posted by curse within

. I do not want anyone ,spouse ,friend , family or kids to support my dressing in anyway...

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Something we actually agree on... My hobby is mine and mine alone and I really don't want any other family member telling me what I can do or what I can wear.... supportively or not....

So we agree but for different reasons...

This is like the borg.... resistence is futile...

:)

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Originally Posted by Kelsy

Katie B,

Don't you think that the very act of a man dressing in woman'a clothes is expressing a trans attitude or "condition" with the exception of that act as a purely sexual fetish or tranvestism ?? Is it ever as simple as wanting to just to wear woman's clothes? doesn't there have to be a connecting transgender
physcology!? If we are acting out a fantasy then what exactly is the fantasy?

Kelsy

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I can agree with you on this..What I don't understand ...This is where it gets confussing...You have Transgender correct and then Transvestism.. Now acting out the feel of the clothing not the look ..Where does that fit in some experts from reading the net say....That a fetish exist with female clothing ,lingere mainly.... Doesn't mean the fetish iincludes expressing ones self as female????? Here is where the differance applies, does that include one under the Transgender umbrella?

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

This is like the borg.... resistence is futile...

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Surely we don't all have to wear a pink wig.. :eek:

They are all just labels and personally I could care less what someone calls it... I love what I love to do... I call it fun... You don't... If you change the label will it become more paletable to you?

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Originally Posted by Karren Hutton

They are all just labels and personally I could care less what someone calls it... I love what I love to do... I call it fun... You don't... If you change the label will it become more paletable to you?

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No it wouldn't as to the point you just made Karren ..you have fun (Not whineing here as it is my choice)..Could I have fun?? Yes if I choose a different lifestyle.. I am here for support tho I am sorry if this brings grief to you ...I am learning as knowledge is the key that's why I joined..You would think it would be better understood seems this place is full of folks that crossdress..

I can only continue to ask people to not take offence I will soon be gone and I will no longer be a snag in your hose.. I also go to other places to learn I have seen you or maybe not on u-tube ,looked like you with the same name great videos if so...

When I lived with my wife my time to research was limited.. I will go away soon enough and you can enjoy the fairytale lifestyle type of threads you seem to enjoy.. BTW the pink wig is great matches your shirt..

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Originally Posted by Shelly Preston

I would put it slighty different

We are all part of the transgendered community

We have Crossdressers and Transexuals

Transexuals are drive by a desire to change but will not necessarily change completely

Crossdressers can arrive at a similar point up to but not including transition

A slight but subtle difference

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Shelly, I would agree with you "partially!" Since every one of us , male and female, has at least a small part of the opposite sex, I would say that technically we are all "transgendered" as you stated.

Transexuals are driven by a strong cumpulsion to change their sexual identity. They may not do so, but the compulsion is always there. They may, of course, also be crossdressers.

But a "non-transsexual" Crossdresser, such as myself, is a totally different person. I dress only because I like the fit, feel, and look of feminine clothing. As my tag line states, I am a man underneath!!:) I, and lots of other CD's like me, have no desire whatsoever to change our sexual orientation in any way. I may be a "transgendered" CD, but I am unequivocally NOT a "transsexual" CD.:tongueout

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Originally Posted by curse within

No it wouldn't as to the point you just made Karren ..you have fun (Not whineing here as it is my choice)..Could I have fun?? Yes if I choose a different lifestyle.. I am here for support tho I am sorry if this brings grief to you ...I am learning as knowledge is the key that's why I joined..You would think it would be better understood seems this place is full of folks that crossdress..

I can only continue to ask people to not take offence I will soon be gone and I will no longer be a snag in your hose.. I also go to other places to learn I have seen you or maybe not on u-tube ,looked like you with the same name great videos if so...

When I lived with my wife my time to research was limited.. I will go away soon enough and you can enjoy the fairytale lifestyle type of threads you seem to enjoy.. BTW the pink wig is great matches your shirt..

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Don't appologize... And I don't get greiffie over anything!! :). And thanks!! See .... There's hope for you... your fashion sense is showing through... Lol

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Originally Posted by curse within

I can agree with you on this..What I don't understand ...This is where it gets confussing...You have Transgender correct and then Transvestism.. Now acting out the feel of the clothing not the look ..Where does that fit in some experts from reading the net say....That a fetish exist with female clothing ,lingere mainly.... Doesn't mean the fetish iincludes expressing ones self as female????? Here is where the differance applies, does that include one under the Transgender umbrella?

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Yes, that does include one under the transgender umbrella.

Imagine two sets of branches, one set stems from a major branch called Gender Identity and one set from Gender Expression. At the end of the smaller branches that extend from these are fruits like MtF Occassional Crossdresser or FtM Non-Op Transexual etc and quite a number of these fruits are formed from joined stems attached to each set of branches so many fruit are directly attached to both GI and GE but all these branches come from the trunk which is Transgender.

Does that help?

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Originally Posted by battybattybats

Yes, that does include one under the transgender umbrella.

Imagine two sets of branches, one set stems from a major branch called Gender Identity and one set from Gender Expression. At the end of the smaller branches that extend from these are fruits like MtF Occassional Crossdresser or FtM Non-Op Transexual etc and quite a number of these fruits are formed from joined stems attached to each set of branches so many fruit are directly attached to both GI and GE but all these branches come from the trunk which is Transgender.

Does that help?

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I got you Batty, so in other words...Just because one feels there are no ties between the clothing and feeling fem , the connection is still there via the the sex of clothing one chooses to fed the fetish with?

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Originally Posted by Nicki B

Surely we don't all have to wear a pink wig.. :eek:

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Pink's an upgade!! Borg 2.1!! :D