How many of us are JUST crossdressers?

Freddy, now that I've put in my two cents as a mod, I'd like to give my opinion. I'm afraid it will be rather lengthy.

There is so much misinformation in this thread I hardly know where to begin.

1. Many people in this thread have said, "I'm not TG because I'm not attracted to men". We conflate gender identity and sexuality in our culture and we need to stop doing this. They are not related, save for the fact that the majority of male identified persons are attracted to women and vice versa. Still, there are TSs and CDs who are attracted to women, TSs and CDs who are attracted to men, TSs and CDs who are attracted to both, and TSs and CDs who are attracted to neither.
   
   
2. The terms "crossdresser" and "transvestite" are interchangeable. "Crossdresser" is more commonly used in North America, and both words are used in the UK. Academic papers also use the term "transvestite" when referring to crossdressers. No matter how negatively some people may see the term "transvestite", it is not a dirty word.
   
   
3. "Transgender" according to the WPATH describes a diverse group of individuals who cross or transcend culturally defined categories of gender. And gendered presentation (not just the clothes) is one of the categories that defines gender. The gender identity of transgenders differs to widely varying degrees from the sex they were assigned at birth. Men who are not transgender have no wish to present as females unless they are genuinely doing it on a lark or for mockery. But, there are men who wear skirts and who present fully as men and I agree that these men are not transgender … unless they present this way because they do not want people pointing at them and saying, "Look, that man is trying to look like a woman". As to the men who underdress, we need to also ask if they only do so because they fear ridicule should they go further. There is a real fear among male-bodied and male-socialized individuals of appearing ridiculous and inciting scorn. Does this mean they lack the desires of crossdressers who were blessed with both a physiognomy and more favorable life circumstances that enable them to transform and pass?
   
   
4. The terms "transgender" and even "crossdresser" are widely misused:
   
   a) Now that we understand more about the components of gender than we did when the term "crossdresser" (or "transvestite) first appeared, we know that crossdressing is what a transgendered individual does.
   
   b) Some crossdressers incorrectly believe that "transgender" means "transsexual", a desire to be a woman.
   
   c) Other crossdressers believe the term "crossdresser" means dressing for sexual fetish only and they refuse to use the term for themselves.
   
   d) Some crossdressers do identify as transgender since they realize there is a difference between them and their male friends who would never even consider presenting as women.
   
   e) Level 6 transsexuals (who've had SRS) refuse to place themselves under the transgender umbrella since they see themselves physically and emotionally as women. And some post-op transwomen even refuse to call themselves TS.
   
   f) The media refers to children and adults who seek or have had Gender Reassignment as "transgender" (possibly to avoid any misunderstanding of their use of the proper term "transsexual" when it comes to children), which further complicates matters.
   
   g) Some of the transsexuals (levels 4 or 5) who do solidly identify as women but who do not see their way to having SRS (for a variety of reasons) also define themselves as "transgender", not as an umbrella term, but because they erroneously believe this is a stepping stone between "crossdresser" and "transsexual" and they feel uncomfortable using the term "transsexual" if they do not seek SRS.
   
   h) The truth is, there is a spectrum among transsexuals just as there is among crossdressers, and everyone is transgendered (save the pure sexual fetishists and perhaps the post-op, stealth transwomen but this is another discussion).
   
   h) "Transgender" is not a one way ticket (your post #36). "Transsexual" is the one way fare.

So Freddy, I have questions. You've written many times that you live in a conservative area. If you lived in San Francisco for example, and you knew that you could dress, put on a wig, forms, and not be read as a man in a dress, would you enjoy going out to lunch and being treated like a woman? Something drives you to dress, what is it and why does it offer you such joy and magic (your post #68)? And how would you feel if I went to your house, took all your clothes and makeup away, and told you that you could never express Frédérique again, not even a single earring? Do you feel as if expressing Frédérique is as much a part of you as the other crossdressers in this thread who also adamantly refuse to use the term "transgender" for themselves? Also, how do you know that your gender identity is as purely male as the men who have absolutely no desire to crossdress?

And last, to address your other points regarding a perceived hierarchy within the TG community, I also agree that the pecking order in this community only lives in small-minded people's minds. No one is better or worse than anyone else, just different. And there are countless differences.

You have clarified many points that others were ignoring, for whatever reasons.

Labels are unfortunately divisive by nature but there is no need whatsoever for that tendency to become pervasive in OUR community. We are a small minority and we need to hang together; or we shall surely hang separately.

Just my opinion,
Sandra1746

I still say, we don't have enough labels (I prefer to use "definitions"), since everyone is using their own version of what they think two or three different words mean, and no one can agree.

Can you imagine the mess our world would be in if we only had "apple", "orange", and "banana" to describe all the fruits? Goodness, there'd be wars between people who call a papaya an orange, and people who call pineapples the same. lol

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

It troubles me that anyone in an open discussion forum would make significant use of such an "ignore" feature, especially in your case where you take such care in crafting thoughtful threads that provoke responses, mostly positive but sometimes critical. It doesn't seem to make much sense by covering your eyes and ears, singing "la la la" as if other points of view neither exist nor are valid in your eyes. What kind of discussion is that???

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[SIZE="2"]So you support attacks on me? :sad:

The people on my ignore list are there because they insist on taking my writing apart, sentence by sentence, inserting critical comments, and not offering one word in the way of original thought (for discussion). I don’t WANT to ignore them, but...well...are you familiar with the word “bully?” It troubles ME that the ones causing me to act so drastically are the last ones to be aware of THEIR injurious words, or to display a conscience by way of apology or regret…[/SIZE]

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You clearly haven't seen all of them.

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[SIZE="2"]Yes I have, by way of quotes within other posts, as I have already explained. One way or another, despite my best efforts, a few “missles” still get through…[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by ReineD

So Freddy, I have questions.
1.You've written many times that you live in a conservative area. If you lived in San Francisco for example, and you knew that you could dress, put on a wig, forms, and not be read as a man in a dress, would you enjoy going out to lunch and being treated like a woman?
2.Something drives you to dress, what is it and why does it offer you such joy and magic (your post #68)?
3.And how would you feel if I went to your house, took all your clothes and makeup away, and told you that you could never express Frédérique again, not even a single earring? Do you feel as if expressing Frédérique is as much a part of you as the other crossdressers in this thread who also adamantly refuse to use the term "transgender" for themselves?
4.Also, how do you know that your gender identity is as purely male as the men who do not crossdress?

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[SIZE="2"]1. Please define “treated like a woman,” and grade your comments geographically…
2. Tactile pleasure. I believe that is begrudgingly referred to in some treatises on transvestism. There is a big difference between being a transvestite and being transgendered, but I know you disagree with my definitions. As for joy and magic, they are in the hearts and minds of individual dressers – I certainly don’t expect everyone to appreciate such simple (and personal) concepts…
3. I wouldn’t feel good about it, but the expression would still come out, one way or the other (as in my artwork, for example). I cannot answer for the other crossdressers in this thread – expression is a very private thing that is, in many ways, beyond discussion…
4. Who says it was? I just know I’m not transgendered, that’s all…[/SIZE]

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And last, to address your other points regarding a perceived hierarchy within the TG community, I also agree that the pecking order in this community only lives in small-minded people's minds. No one is better or worse than anyone else, just different. And there are countless differences.

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[SIZE="2"]This thread came about because a good friend of mine recently came back from the void, and was almost immediately buffeted by unsolicited opinions and advice, making a cloudy mindset only cloudier. I see this time and time again. I would prefer to say nothing and launch another “Tea Party,” but I feel for this friend of mine. I keep wondering that there are others who might come to a site like this, hoping for some reinforcement, or support, or maybe someone will say “It’s OK,” but they get a wheelbarrow-load of confusion instead. With that in mind, all I’m trying to say is this – there are some of us who are JUST crossdressers, with no pretensions to anything else, so please treat us accordingly. I agree - there are countless differences, and they should ALL have a voice…
:straightface: [/SIZE]

*sigh*, then we'll just leave it at that, Freddy. :hugs:

Okay I feel the need to defend my good friend Freddy here. In case some of you haven't noticed she is one of the most friendly, compassionate, caring and creative people here. Her posts are always meant to invoke thought and discussion. This post is the same but somehow ended up going bad.

Fact is there is a hierarchy or perceived one here created by some members that does exist and will exist as long as the board is here. It's coming from all groups/labels or whatever you want to call them. Everybody has seen it, it even exists amongst the CDers themselves. This is what the thread is about, the feeling of being inferior created by others. I know I've had to defend the CDers on numerous occasions myself.

Freddy chooses to ignore those that harass or otherwise give her a hard time. The ignore option is there for a reason and I have been told by moderators to use it. It is a personal choice and she admitted to using it. Not a big deal based on moderator's advice.

Freddy does not discriminate among the groups, or at least I haven't seen it. She is seeing things from a CDer's POV based on the common definitions of what a CDer is. I see her as trying to help correct or help things by posting this thread.

I just call myself "transgender" - it may or may not become anything other than CD, don't know, but I try to keep an open mind either way. - BrendaB.

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Originally Posted by Marleena

Fact is there is a hierarchy or perceived one here created by some members that does exist and will exist as long as the board is here. It's coming from all groups/labels or whatever you want to call them. Everybody has seen it, it even exists amongst the CDers themselves. This is what the thread is about, the feeling of being inferior created by others. I know I've had to defend the CDers on numerous occasions myself.

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Actually, Freddy spoke about two separate issues:

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="2"]

I’ve seen it, time and time again, in this very MtF crossdressing section. If you crossdress, you MUST be transgendered, or on the road to being transgendered, or transgendered without knowing it. To others, the act of crossdressing makes you transgendered. Apparently I, the MtF crossdresser, have certain obligations to fulfill – I cannot let down the "community," even though the community looks down on me. I can’t just dress to please myself, stay within my zone of safety, and live in a fantasy world of my own making; I MUST get out there and put myself in harm’s way like a true TG, come what may. If I don't, I’m not to be taken seriously, no matter how well I can plead my case for fairness..[/SIZE]

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This is about the idea that Freddy is a CDer and not TG. She apparently feels judged or dismissed because she chooses to keep the CDing private. Also she feels she would be putting herself in harms way by going out dressed and she is understandably reluctant to do this. So it appears as if Freddy's definition of a TG is someone who goes out presenting as a woman in public and since Freddy dresses at home, she is a crossdresser. We've already established that after having read arguments that expand on the prior definitions of the terms "crossdresser" and "transgender", if Freddy still wants to call herself a CDer she is in her full right to do so. No one wants a circular argument.

Freddy's other point is a perception that the community at large here condemns people who are not out to everyone.

I just want to reiterate, it is Freddy's full right to call herself what she wants, and also her right to dress privately. No one here is in a position to criticize this, ever. But, I disagree with the perception that the majority of the people in this forum think badly of Freddy and feel as if she is letting "the community" down by her choices. Anyone need only count the responses in this thread in support of Freddy, to determine otherwise. Yes there have been a few contentious threads about this in the past and it is always the same small handful of people who make a rather strong point, but it is a mistake to say that the majority of people in this forum put others down for their choices.

So no, I do not wish to see this thread turn into a debate about being private vs. going out, or whether it is better to have a full femme identity vs. a partial, vs. none, since the choice about this is individual.

Also, from past experience I know there are a small handful of people who will become inflammatory over this facet of the debate and if we direct the conversation that way and there are more flaming posts, I will close this thread.

Thanks Reine, it was too much to read and I came in late on this one. I went by Freddy's original post and looks like I missed some points.

"I just want to reiterate, it is Freddy's full right to call herself what she wants, and also her right to dress privately. No one here is in a position to criticize this, ever. But, I disagree with the perception that the majority of the people in this forum think badly of Freddy and feel as if she is letting "the community" down by her choices. Anyone need only count the responses in this thread in support of Freddy, to determine otherwise. Yes there have been a few contentious threads about this in the past and it is always the same small handful of people who make a rather strong point, but it is a mistake to say that the majority of people in this forum put others down for their choices."

I agree fully with the above statement.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I still say, we don't have enough labels (I prefer to use "definitions"), since everyone is using their own version of what they think two or three different words mean, and no one can agree.

Can you imagine the mess our world would be in if we only had "apple", "orange", and "banana" to describe all the fruits? Goodness, there'd be wars between people who call a papaya an orange, and people who call pineapples the same. lol

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That hits the nail on the head, Reine. The major problem is the Latin language, which is very imprecise when parts are taken out of context, and the prefix "trans-":

a prefix occurring in loanwords from Latin (transcend; transfix); on this model, used with the meanings “across,” “beyond,” “through,” “changing thoroughly,” “transverse,” in combination with elements of any origin: transisthmian; trans-Siberian; transempirical; transvalue.

It doesn't define what we want. It gets used for single direction ("transsexual") and omnidirectional ("transvestite"). Obviously the latter can change clothes in both directions at will. :)

The term "transgender", as it has been defined, is so wide that you can drive a fleet of buses through it. You may as well just change it to "human" and be done with it. Freddy's definition of it, as I read it, is more accurately derived and far more precise:

a person who changes their gender (not their sex or sexual preferences) to that of the opposite gender.

I read that as being a single-directional term, similar to "transsexual". Using this definition Freddy is not "Transgender" and neither am I. :) (Sorry if I got it wrong, Freddy. :) )

Of course, we can never correct all this. The media demands an umbrella term that can be applied to everyone who doesn't fit into the commonly accepted norm. They've applied "Transgender" to that and we're stuck with it. So, "Transsexuals" (pre-op, post-op or whatever), you are "Transgender" whether you like it or not (and you always will be). So are you, "Crossdressers" and/or "Transvestites". The media says so. The actual definition has become so diluted now that it's completely useless.

If this post doesn't get me flamed I've done something wrong. :D

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="2"]So you support attacks on me? :sad: [/SIZE]

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Of course not, you know that's not true.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[The people on my ignore list are there because they insist on taking my writing apart, sentence by sentence, inserting critical comments, and not offering one word in the way of original thought (for discussion). I don’t WANT to ignore them, but...well...are you familiar with the word “bully?” It troubles ME that the ones causing me to act so drastically are the last ones to be aware of THEIR injurious words, or to display a conscience by way of apology or regret…

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Well I read said post completely and found it to be rather gentle, especially given the history there. I also found it to be full of the original thoughts you claim to be lacking. Just because opinions are not marching lock-step with your premise doesn't render them invalid. Remember, "just a crossdresser" is a rather provocative statement whether one wants to be associated as such or not. It seems that statements made to a contrary are dismissed way too easily.

Contrary opinions are not necessarily personal attacks but regardless, whether a person can be aware that their words are injurious in some way, shape or form, how can they know how you feel if you refuse to read those words, let alone acknowledge them whether in the open forum or via PM? It's like that driver who cuts us off in traffic and then flips the bird when we honk, they go about their business completely oblivious to the fact that they were the party in the wrong. I'm sure we have all wished we could tell that driver the error of their ways. So if you feel that someone's post is "injuring" you, then isn't it a better tactic to respond rather than ignore?

I don't know, it feels like I'm beating my head against a wall for no reason.

Hello Ladies
This thread is just too intense. So much reading my simple mind cant handle it.:bonk:. I think all of you are beautiful and unique. I am so glad to part of this family.

Thera

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Originally Posted by Kathy Smith

That hits the nail on the head, Reine. The major problem is the Latin language, which is very imprecise when parts are taken out of context, and the prefix "trans-":

a prefix occurring in loanwords from Latin (transcend; transfix); on this model, used with the meanings “across,” “beyond,” “through,” “changing thoroughly,” “transverse,” in combination with elements of any origin: transisthmian; trans-Siberian; transempirical; transvalue.

It doesn't define what we want. It gets used for single direction ("transsexual") and omnidirectional ("transvestite"). Obviously the latter can change clothes in both directions at will. :)

The term "transgender", as it has been defined, is so wide that you can drive a fleet of buses through it. You may as well just change it to "human" and be done with it. Freddy's definition of it, as I read it, is more accurately derived and far more precise:

a person who changes their gender (not their sex or sexual preferences) to that of the opposite gender.

I read that as being a single-directional term, similar to "transsexual". Using this definition Freddy is not "Transgender" and neither am I. :) (Sorry if I got it wrong, Freddy. :) )

Of course, we can never correct all this. The media demands an umbrella term that can be applied to everyone who doesn't fit into the commonly accepted norm. They've applied "Transgender" to that and we're stuck with it. So, "Transsexuals" (pre-op, post-op or whatever), you are "Transgender" whether you like it or not (and you always will be). So are you, "Crossdressers" and/or "Transvestites". The media says so. The actual definition has become so diluted now that it's completely useless.

If this post doesn't get me flamed I've done something wrong. :D

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Hi Kathy

Very well stated. But why should we be stuck with it? The media does more misinforming than it does informing. We see this every day with the coverage of politics. Everything is slanted the way the particular outlet wants it to be seen. But to get back on topic, your definition of transgender is correct, both historicaly,and grammaticaly. One of the first people to use the phrase (it was actually transgenderist) was Virginia Prince, co-founder of Tri-ess, who applied it to herself, because she was no longer an example of the core group of individuals that tri-ess was established to support. She found herself living virtually full time as a woman because of her position and responsibilities as the head of tri-ess. She went on hormones, but did not believe in SRS, so she concluded that she had "crossed over" (trans) to the other gender more or less permanently, but had not crossed over to the other sex. Transgender seemed to be the ideal label. That is the historical side. You have stated the grammatical side. People like to say that language evolves, which in a sense it does, but that does not excuse the laziness that allows terms to be used inaccurately. We seem to be seeing this more and more, aided in part by technology that encourages the useage of codes and catchphrases to save time and effort. I crossdress. That is a verb. As one who does so, I am a crossdresser. But that is but one of a great many things that I also "am". It does not define me in any way other than to mention something I sometimes do. But there is no verbal form of transgender. It is not something people do, but is something they are, i.e. a human condition. It defines an individual in a much deeper and more profound manner than something that a person does occasionally or even frequently. They are TG, even if they seldom express it.

Transgenderism does exist, but its pure definition is nowhere near as all-inclusive as many would have us believe. By some definitions, almost everybody is TG, because some aspect of their daily life happens to transcend some imaginary boundary between masculinity and femininity. On the other hand, a more concise definition makes the term extremely misleading as an umbrella for a very diverse community of individuals.

Veronica

[SIZE="2"]Another day, another lengthy post...:doh:[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Marleena

Freddy does not discriminate among the groups, or at least I haven't seen it. She is seeing things from a CDer's POV based on the common definitions of what a CDer is. I see her as trying to help correct or help things by posting this thread.

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[SIZE="2"]That is correct, and I appreciate your kind words and support, Marleena! :)

There are very few individuals on my ignore list, but we have encountered a few during the course of this thread. I KNOW they are going to show up, and I know I will be “inspired” to derail my own thread by way of heated responses, so, under the influence of crossdressing and its attendant ladylike behavior, isn’t it better to sidestep the anger that could develop? I think so. I’m glad there are ways to keep a level head around here. There was a time when I was afraid to post ANYTHING, especially thread OP’s, because the same people would descend on me like a babe in the woods. Referencing Sara Jessica’s previous comment about my willful ignorance (of certain members) being anathema to discussion, I wish to point out that pointed attacks on my written words do the same thing, from another direction, if you can see things from my point of view. I know I’m being looked down upon by some because I’m a “mere” crossdresser (who writes about it), and, if I didn’t, I certainly wouldn’t bother trying to discuss this controversial subject...[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I just want to reiterate, it is Freddy's full right to call herself what she wants, and also her right to dress privately. No one here is in a position to criticize this, ever. But, I disagree with the perception that the majority of the people in this forum think badly of Freddy and feel as if she is letting "the community" down by her choices. Anyone need only count the responses in this thread in support of Freddy, to determine otherwise. Yes there have been a few contentious threads about this in the past and it is always the same small handful of people who make a rather strong point, but it is a mistake to say that the majority of people in this forum put others down for their choices.

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[SIZE="2"]Yes, and it is NOT my intention to create a rift between the various “factions” of crossdressers. I recently read an excellent assessment of the community we are a part of, or the umbrella we all come under, according to the auspices of society, for lack of any true understanding, and that is this – we cannot agree on anything! Rather than hinder any attempt at understanding, this fact only emboldens me (and others) to try wrapping words around seemingly difficult concepts in an attempt to forge increased acceptance. When the threads get contentious I know I’m getting closer to the heart of the problem, if there is one, and some are getting a glimpse of their own community from my perspective, which happens to be at the very edge of the “umbrella.” Help!?[/SIZE]

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Also, from past experience I know there are a small handful of people who will become inflammatory over this facet of the debate and if we direct the conversation that way and there are more flaming posts, I will close this thread.

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[SIZE="2"]Thanks for NOT closing the thread (so far), Reine! I appreciate your support, and thanks for making an effort to see things from the perspective of us “ordinary” crossdressers...:)[/SIZE]

[SIZE="2"]I have a question. Are you posting within this discussion as a member, or as a moderator? If it is the former, how can you (technically) close the thread? I assume your answer might be, “Just WATCH me!” but I’m curious – do you shift between member and mod as the situation presents itself, or are you always a moderator, and thus here primarily to keep the peace? Your words betray a certain compassion in this regard...[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Kathy Smith

The term "transgender", as it has been defined, is so wide that you can drive a fleet of buses through it. You may as well just change it to "human" and be done with it. Freddy's definition of it, as I read it, is more accurately derived and far more precise: a person who changes their gender (not their sex or sexual preferences) to that of the opposite gender. I read that as being a single-directional term, similar to "transsexual". Using this definition Freddy is not "Transgender" and neither am I. (Sorry if I got it wrong, Freddy.)

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[SIZE="2"]No, you got it right! I harp upon this dictionary definition of "trans-"quite often, because it provides an insight into word origins as well as the labels that society places on us. By definition, if you are transgendered a definite change has taken place, from one gender to the other, and any crossdressing becomes simply “dressing” in regards to this transformation. If a male wears women’s clothing occasionally, and then reverts back to his male appearance (even after a lengthy visit to the “other side”), and it stays at that level (i.e. goes no further), I don’t think you can accurately call that person transgendered. However, wearing women’s clothing aligns us with the transgendered community – this comes about because certain assumptions are created in people’s minds, either due to ignorance or laziness, and we are trundled together with actual TG’s by association...

So, we come here, attracted by the title, to “meet” other crossdressers, and we bump into the TG community in all its glory. But, what if we are “just” crossdressers? This seems to cause friction with some who aren’t JUST crossdressers. Darned if I don’t feel like an outsider at times, but it comes with the territory. I go back and forth, from one side to the other, crossing from one gender to another in my effort to “play as a girl.” I don’t think it can hurt to dissect words for their actual meanings, or their original meanings, in an effort to find out why a MtF crossdresser and a trangendered person would have differing opinions. I agree that the word “transgendered” has been broadened politically to now encompass ALL forms of crossdressing, but, it that’s the case, shouldn’t this place be called transgender.com? I think the actual title of this site reflects an acceptance of all crossdressers, even though the latter term is becoming increasingly obsolete. Most “accurate” terms go that route, replaced by confusing language that clouds the issue, whatever it may be...

BTW, I would join a site called transvestite.com immediately, but, if it originated in this country, I’m sure it would be aligned (and filled) with pornography...:sad: [/SIZE]

I never bought the argument that we shouldn't use labels. We need them, sometimes more, sometimes less, but we need to use them in a way so that when you use a word, I understand what you mean. "Transgender", in all its different uses, doesn't communicate well. We need a word to describe (more narrowly than "transgender") the people such as Reine describes below:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

g) Some of the transsexuals (levels 4 or 5) who do solidly identify as women but who do not see their way to having SRS (for a variety of reasons) also define themselves as "transgender", not as an umbrella term, but because they erroneously believe this is a stepping stone between "crossdresser" and "transsexual" and they feel uncomfortable using the term "transsexual" if they do not seek SRS.

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"Transgender", the catch-all umbrella term, has been taken. We need a new one.

Reine, did you really have to use "fruits" as your analogy? haha

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Originally Posted by NicoleScott

"Transgender", the catch-all umbrella term, has been taken. We need a new one.

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Yes, I agree. What about Fashionalistbeautyadmirealistguy

Thera

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Originally Posted by Veronica27

Hi Kathy

She [Virginia Prince] went on hormones, but did not believe in SRS, so she concluded that she had "crossed over" (trans) to the other gender more or less permanently, but had not crossed over to the other sex. Transgender seemed to be the ideal label. That is the historical side. You have stated the grammatical side. People like to say that language evolves, which in a sense it does, but that does not excuse the laziness that allows terms to be used inaccurately.

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But knowledge also evolves, particularly our understanding of gender, which we now believe is not binary. Something drives a genetic male to wish to transcend the culturally defined norms of masculinity in order to express femininity, so what is it? Why is there a need to feel feminine, if it isn't a degree of feminine gender identification, even if this ebbs and flows and even if the primary gender ID is male?

To say that the act of crossdressing is simply something that one does and is not unlike engaging in a hobby or playing a sport does not acknowledge the deeper psychological motives for choosing to temporarily change or transcend something that is fundamental to our core sense of who we are, namely our gender.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="2"]I have a question. Are you posting within this discussion as a member, or as a moderator? If it is the former, how can you (technically) close the thread? I assume your answer might be, “Just WATCH me!” but I’m curious – do you shift between member and mod as the situation presents itself, or are you always a moderator, and thus here primarily to keep the peace? Your words betray a certain compassion in this regard...[/SIZE]

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I'm a transmoderator! I switch back and forth. :D

Seriously, sometimes I'm purely a mod trying to keep the peace (post #96), sometimes I post my opinion purely as a member (#101), and sometimes it's hard to separate since as an individual I dislike strife and I post as both (#108).

So maybe I'm a bimod, or a dualmod. lol

I do care about all the members here no matter their gender identity and I also consider the people lurking who haven't joined yet (the CDs, TSs, and their wives/husbands). As both a mod and as a member, I believe in putting our best face forward to the public at large and I dislike it when threads disintegrate because members have forgotten that everyone has a right to their opinion, as long as it is expressed respectfully. This is why I have no qualms about closing a thread that I've participated in as a member, when it becomes a free for all.

Dear Frédérique: I dress for tactile, sensual and sexual reasons, but in the end I just dress because it makes me feel very relaxed. My heart beats faster, my skin tingles, and a part of me is able to simply let go and slip into something more comfortable. I have no desire to become a TG. I adore my "breast forms", wigs, silk nighties and hose, but would never consider any thing further. As a man, I feel comfortable. As a CD, I feel.....well, hidden...and that's a shame. Always love your thoughts and posts. Leila


[QUOTE=Frédérique;2885646][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="2"][COLOR="black"] ...."there is a BIG difference between a male who dresses as a woman for tactile or sexual reasons, and a transgendered person who may be way more serious about what they do.

Personally, I consider myself a crossdresser. I'm not "trans"" anything. I'd be a transformer if i could go between female and male when I wanted to. But all of the other titles don't make it with me. Transvestvite sounds creepy as hell. "Tranny" to me is the part of automobile that allows
the horsepower produced from an engine to be sent to the rearend-not THAT rearend-and trans axles are a real differnt story. I'm happy to be considered a CD. Although that too is not what society calls what I am. To most of them , I'm a guy in a dress.

I also consider myself as a crossdresser. And I am especially using "he" and "male" terms talking about me. I hope it will help the society to be less binary as far as clothes are concerned.

First, to answer your question, no, I am not just a crossdresser. I am, as I have come to understand myself over these last few months, TS. Over the last few months, I have enbarked on a inward journey to understand myself and I have made some discoveries that I hope will be helpfull.

First of all, I have discovered an internal conflict within myself. It is not the conflict with my male and female selves, but a conflict between two parts of my femminine whole. It is a conflict between my inner lady and my inner bitch. Logic, reason, compassion, forgiveness, and love are the qualities i find in my inner lady. Her alter ego can best be described with the words from Captain Jack Sparrow. "She is the embodiement of a woman's scorn, the likes of which Hell's furry hath no." She rages inside my head, seething with anger and hatred. What makes many of us different is how we deal with these feelings of anger, frusteration, and often times jealousy. It affects the theings we say, the way we act, and it forms part of the lens through which we see the world.

I often wish that I was Just a crossdresser. I wish that a change of clothes was all it took to make me happy. But that just ain't the way it is, not for me anyway. And my inner bitch rages in my head. She screams about how much she hates that crossdressers have it so much easier than us. She yells out how much easier it would be if I didnt need therapy and hormones, and surgury, and all this dam waiting. She slams her fists down on the table shouting that they have the luxury of staying in the closet and not having to worry as much about societies rules and the rejection that comes when you don't conform to them. Then the yelling stops, and she falls to her knees. she begins to cry. She sobs abohow expensive her happyness is. She laments about how she is going to tell her parents that they will never have grandchildren. She is a part of me, and it has taken me a long time to learn to deal with these feelings, and sometimes I still don't know what to do with them. Sometimes we don't always choose the best way of dealing with our emotions, and we vent our anger and frustration on people who don't deserve it. It is not right, and it is not fair, but sometimes that's just the way it is. All I can do is try my best not to hurt someone else, and understand that those who are hurting others are them selves huting, and hope that they will find their own peace soon. That is just part of the world we live in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xrys

She screams about how much she hates that crossdressers have it so much easier than us. She yells out how much easier it would be if I didnt need therapy and hormones, and surgury, and all this dam waiting.

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Ah. But there's an end in sight for you. One day you will be transitioned, you'll have gotten past all this, and you will fit nicely as a binary woman in a binary world. However, crossdressers (depending on the degree of their need to express themselves, and depending on the acceptance of their families), face different yet just as difficult challenges. For life. We do not live in a world that accepts men who need to express femininity nor does the world accept people who experience a non-binary mixture of gender identity. Crossdressers experience the frustration of not feeling free to express themselves, and they also lose jobs and families.

I respect your challenges and I know it is not easy to face the losses you will experience from the people in your life who will not be able to accept your transition. And I feel compassion for what you are going through. But it is a mistake to feel as if your pain is greater than someone else who has a completely different set of challenges than you do.

:hugs:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But knowledge also evolves, particularly our understanding of gender, which we now believe is not binary. Something drives a genetic male to wish to transcend the culturally defined norms of masculinity in order to express femininity, so what is it? Why is there a need to feel feminine, if it isn't a degree of feminine gender identification, even if this ebbs and flows and even if the primary gender ID is male?

To say that the act of crossdressing is simply something that one does and is not unlike engaging in a hobby or playing a sport does not acknowledge the deeper psychological motives for choosing to temporarily change or transcend something that is fundamental to our core sense of who we are, namely our gender.

---

A desire to crossdress may or may not include a desire to express one's own sense of femininity, but that does not have to translate into "gender identification". Nobody ever claims that a woman is identifying with the "masculine gender" if she takes auto mechanics, goes fishing, wears jeans and a t-shirt, does house repairs or any of the countless other "masculine" things that they do. Why does everyone assume a man is identifying with the "feminine gender" simply because he enjoys participating in some of the cultural practices normally assigned to the female sex.

What you describe as knowledge and understanding of gender is primarily psychological theory and opinions, and not provable fact. They are the result of attempting to answer the many questions that have resulted from all the cultural and social changes that have occurred over the past half century or so. Gender, unlike sex, is an intangible and therefore incapable of possessing a finite definition. As some state, gender is a social construct, meaning it is whatever a given society deems it to be at any point in time.

The following explanation of gender was found at http://www.yourdictionary.com/gender?

"Traditionally, gender has been used primarily to refer to the grammatical categories of “masculine,” “feminine,” and “neuter,” but in recent years the word has become well established in its use to refer to sex-based categories, as in phrases such as gender gap and the politics of gender. This usage is supported by the practice of many anthropologists, who reserve sex for reference to biological categories, while using gender to refer to social or cultural categories. According to this rule, one would say The effectiveness of the medication appears to depend on the sex (not gender) of the patient, but In peasant societies, gender (not sex) roles are likely to be more clearly defined. This distinction is useful in principle, but it is by no means widely observed, and considerable variation in usage occurs at all levels."

Thus, the use of gender in this sense of our "identity" is fairly recent, is not universally observed, and varies considerably. In fact, it is not something that we "are" in the same way as the categorizing of our sex, but it is a social and cultural categorizing of all the roles and various other qualities and characteristics that combine to form human nature. As individuals we possess our own characteristics, which a given culture may look upon as being masculine, feminine or neutral according to its precepts, but it is a major jump to say this defines our "gender" or our "gender identity"

The core sense of who I am includes my sex, which is male and finite and does not change regardless of what I am doing or how I am dressed. As far as I am concerned, gender is a non-issue. I neither feel it or sense it, at least as I understand the meaning of the word. Do I express my own femininity from time to time? Of course I do, as do probably at least 95% of the male population if they could only get beyond cultural indoctrination and be honest. They may not express it by their clothing choices, but appearance is but a small part of the total person.

Crossdressing as a word is a verb. Crossdresser simply means that I crossdress, which as I said is but one of many things that I am, and does not define me as a person. However transgender, by its meaning, describes the person, not one of his activities. You cannot be transgendered one day, and not transgendered the next. It becomes a condition of your being, and not an activity in which you sometimes indulge. As I am not of the opinion that I possess a gender in the modern sense of that word, how can I be transgendered.

I can accept that many people hold the modern opinions concerning gender, and thus transgender. I also recognize that many people do possess a condition that is commonly referred to as transgendered. I may debate the issues with them, but I do not attempt to say they are not what they feel themselves to be. By the same token, I do not like having people ridicule me for my views, and insist that because I crossdress I am transgendered. That approach used to be rampant on this forum when I first joined, and I did not visit here for several years after a very nasty exchange with some of the militants. When I checked back in, they had largely disappeared, and the current posters appeared to have a much more tolerant approach to everybody's views. I hope things are not reverting to those bad days.

Veronica

If you lived in San Francisco for example, and you knew that you could dress, put on a wig, forms, and not be read as a man in a dress, would you enjoy going out to lunch and being treated like a woman?
People in San Francisco are as smart as anyone else and read CD/TG/TS as well as those in Omaha or anywhere else. They just don't care as much. :) (Yes, trying to inject a little humor into this thread before it devolves any further).

I define cross-dressing as wearing apparel that is traditionally associated with or worn by the opposite gender. It has become entirely socially acceptable for women in this culture to cross-dress even though at one time it was not and in some sub-cultures a woman in pants or a tee shirt (a man’s undershirt) it still is considered unacceptable. People cross-dress for a number of reasons and I don’t believe there is a single “syndrome” where all of us are on the same “path” to some sort of womanhood. We are not a community; we are individuals with some common interests. At most we are communities, and we really cannot, or should not impose our expectations or values on the rest of the members of this forum. I oppose homosexual marriage and would oppose a man trying to pass as a woman in certain circumstances. Some forum members are horrified with this, but I have no obligation or inclination to buy into a particular agenda simply because I like to wear women’s clothing. I understand Freddy's point of view and have experienced the conflict between simple cross-dressing and other practices or lifestyles that incorporate men wearing woman’s clothing.


I cross-dress. Sometimes I even go out in public cross-dressed - a guy in a skirt. I don't do makeup, nor do I shave off my beard. The only reason I would try to "pass" is so that I might be able to go out in public and not feel so stared at! I enjoy, as sort of a hobby, taking photographs of myself looking as female as I possibly can look; I do not want to be female or live a female life. But if I had my way I would simply be able to wear whatever feminine or masculine attire suits my mood or task for the day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xrys

...She screams about how much she hates that crossdressers have it so much easier than us.

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Yes, my life is infinitely easier if I were "just a crossdresser". Most importantly, my wife wouldn't have to worry every day if the bell is going to go off inside my head which could lead me headlong into transition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Ah. But there's an end in sight for you. One day you will be transitioned, you'll have gotten past all this, and you will fit nicely as a binary woman in a binary world.

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But for those of us on a middle path, there is no end in sight. Only a lifetime of balance, seeking fulfillment, and depending on one's degree of "out-ness", subterfuge (which in my case is the stealth involved to keep my children shielded from having to know about this side of me and what it takes to explain away outings, not to mention the pain-in-the-ass to simply get out the door in the first place).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

However, crossdressers (depending on the degree of their need to express themselves, and depending on the acceptance of their families), face different yet just as difficult challenges. For life. We do not live in a world that accepts men who need to express femininity nor does the world accept people who experience a non-binary mixture of gender identity. Crossdressers experience the frustration of not feeling free to express themselves, and they also lose jobs and families.

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I know this isn't lost upon you given this is more of a "CD" discussion but those who identify as TS also lose much when it comes to family/friends/careers. Your comment made me think which side has it worse in that department. I would suggest that the transitioning individual has more to lose based solely on the fact that they are pretty much out to everyone in the process of transition. However, I don't want to discount or trivialize the loss on the CD side. These pages are littered with such loss, mostly in spousal or dating relationships where the SO has understandable issues in accepting a gender anomaly in her gender binary world. I would not necessarily suggest that loss is more profound on either side, whether TS or CD or somewhere in-between, but from a practical standpoint, the loss should be more avoidable (or at least easier managed) on the CD side. Regardless, it's sad that loss even has to be part of the equation.

The term "cross dresser" is fine with me. Transvestite was a medical term used by Shrinks in the 1950's before they knew anything about us.
The biggest confusion of all from everyone is because we want to dress and appear as a woman that we secretly desire to be a woman, which is not always true. The last thing I want to be is an "Old Lady". I prefer to grow older as a man, and keep my sweet Caroline to myself. The other confusion is dressed as a woman we want sex from a man, that might hold true for Gay Cross dressers, I don't really know. Cross dressing is not about sex, however it has a self erotic side we can't honestly deny.

I normally avoid these esoteric debates on the words crossdresser and transgender. Just this once I let myself be sucked in and decided to look at how these words were defined by several on line dictionaries. Its no wonder that we are confused or have different views of their meaning when the dictionaries can't even agree. Quote the dictionary that has the definition that fits your personal view. What I did learn was that most defined transgender more narrowly and not inclusive of those who do not want to be a different gender in whole or in part. That certainly fits my view that I'm just a crossdresser and not transgender. It also seems to fit, in my opinion, the world view of what these terms mean. Its understandable that any relatively small group in a large population, like the transgendered, would want to feel they are less different by widening the definition of their situation. My take away from all this is that transgendered is wanting to BE a different gender in whole or in part while crossdressers want to occasionally dress like a different gender and have a jolly good time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Veronica27

A desire to crossdress may or may not include a desire to express one's own sense of femininity, but that does not have to translate into "gender identification".

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Veronica, I don't mean to ignore your post. Thank you for stating it so well, I will take some time to digest everything you've said.

:hugs:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But knowledge also evolves, particularly our understanding of gender, which we now believe is not binary. Something drives a genetic male to wish to transcend the culturally defined norms of masculinity in order to express femininity, so what is it? Why is there a need to feel feminine, if it isn't a degree of feminine gender identification, even if this ebbs and flows and even if the primary gender ID is male?

To say that the act of crossdressing is simply something that one does and is not unlike engaging in a hobby or playing a sport does not acknowledge the deeper psychological motives for choosing to temporarily change or transcend something that is fundamental to our core sense of who we are, namely our gender.



I'm a transmoderator! I switch back and forth. :D

Seriously, sometimes I'm purely a mod trying to keep the peace (post #96), sometimes I post my opinion purely as a member (#101), and sometimes it's hard to separate since as an individual I dislike strife and I post as both (#108).

So maybe I'm a bimod, or a dualmod. lol

I do care about all the members here no matter their gender identity and I also consider the people lurking who haven't joined yet (the CDs, TSs, and their wives/husbands). As both a mod and as a member, I believe in putting our best face forward to the public at large and I dislike it when threads disintegrate because members have forgotten that everyone has a right to their opinion, as long as it is expressed respectfully. This is why I have no qualms about closing a thread that I've participated in as a member, when it becomes a free for all.

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This may be a TAD off topic but I think that you are suggesting that hobbies are valueless/mindless and I think that that could be not seeing them in their context--perhaps like some see just plain crossdressing. remember that most "scientists of the earlier centuries were "hobbyists", not formally/university trained as many of disciplines that we now have were added towards the end of the 19th century as education itself changed . Darwin, for example studied medicine (didn't complete course, ) and theology but basically learned the natural sciences doing museum work, reading, etc. He was, strictly speaking an "amateur-hobbyist" scientist. Most hobbies require skills, knowledge and other things that do transcend daily life activities. While some people have have turned their hobbies into a profession, they still began as hobbies.
Additionally, I have read in this thread I believe at least one person who said she no longer needs to dress to "transcend" her gender, so that dressing as an act itself is unimportant. What of the phrase that gender is in the mind, sex between the legs. This could the case for "just crossdressers" where there is no transcendence (though personally I do think that in some way we do change even if we are not on the road to thailand.) It could be like the "icing on the cake", the cake itself being the defining state of being. How does one transcend oneself, a subjective viewpoint that is unique in the world?

Well if you do the math. _________ 2 Ya Im only a crossdresser too.
TS / TV MEN
V ____ . ( _____ ) =
CD CD

I see myself as being "transgendered" more than JUST a crossdresser. I know it all comes under the transgendered unberella and all that, but prefer using "transgendered" to "crossdresser".

Sorry to hear of the negatives, but this world is full of the. Oh I love my stuff and if it lead somewhere, I'd appreciate it and do the necessary changes, but I'd be damned if anyone of us bedeviled our Fraddie, queer and all. Keep up the good work!!!!

I'm "just a crossdresser", too! I have no desire to transition (though I would love to do it for a month or two if I could change back again) and actually love being a man! I just happen to have times that I like to dress up in lingerie and sexy dresses.

I'm "Just A Cross Dresser" and have absolutely no desire to transition to a woman. Cross dressing brings me relief from stress. I truly believe everyone has some degree of femininity in their personalities. With me, Stephanie comes out to give her twin brother time away from the stresses of the world and prior bad experiences which haunt him on occasion. That's one reason for confining my cross dressing to my home. As a cross dresser who cannot 'pass,' I would not get the feeling of peace if I were out in public. For me cross dressing is my own private world. When Stephanie has given her twin brother enough down time, he will reappear. There are times when I have had days of opportunity to be en femme, Stephanie has not appeared. It is not a compulsive disorder.

Just thinking. I consider myself a crossdresser and not transgender. I am a man who likes to wear women's clothes. I don't feel like I have changed gender(sex). I might pretend to be female, but the key word is pretend. I know I am not nor do I want to be a women.

Looking at the some of post about how the words "crossdress and transgender" and any of their forms are used. I think of the news reports of men that dress a women trying to either misdirect or hide. The news never says the individual was being transgeder to diguise himself it is alway he was crossdressed. There is no inference that the man wanted to change geneder.

I know it is not the best example of a person who crossdressed but it is one that kind of discribes what we have be discussing between "crossdress and transgender".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

Are you JUST a crossdresser?

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No. Many of us are men who like to occasionally wear women's clothes, shoes, wigs, makeup, etc. We are THE crossdressers. The rest are JUST gender-confused, JUST gender-variant, JUST Transsexual, or JUST whatever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jessica S

Looking at the some of post about how the words "crossdress and transgender" and any of their forms are used. I think of the news reports of men that dress a women trying to either misdirect or hide. The news never says the individual was being transgeder to diguise himself it is alway he was crossdressed. There is no inference that the man wanted to change geneder.

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This is because based on outward appearances, Muggles really have no idea how one personally identifies unless they are told. Appearance offers few clues, if any at all, so they default to their most familiar terminology, crossdresser or transvestite, as their chosen word of description.

I have to add Nancie to just the crossdresser list. Have been dressing since my mid teens and now in my mid 60's and can't say I every had thought of any changes. I love just dressing when I can, weather permitting,(100 degrees today). I too have had some not very nice remarks posted by others on here. Maybe those of us that CD are more sure of where we stand.

Yup, You can count me in the CD column.
AND I love this site because for the first time I feel there are more just plain old CD's around and there is more CD discussions about real life stuff.
Many of the other sites I have seen quickly lead to a sexual encounter of some sort. No real help on finding tips to be a the best looking and feeling woman you can be.
Bobbi

I know exactly what you mean frederique, I too have experience the disdain, or the I am better than thou type of attitude in the tg community, I have always identified myself as a crossdresser, because that is what I do, however when I search deep down in my being it is much more complicated than I like it to be, because of the labeling in the tg community it is difficult at best for some of us to identify as we truly are. As I have stated earlier and in the past, I consider myself to be a crossdresser, because I do not want to have a sex change, however I identify more as a woman than I do a man, I want to live 24/7 as a woman and am working on achieving that goal. Sometimes I see myself wanting to identify as a *******, but I dont like the negative conotation, or stigma that goes with that label, because I am not into the pornagraphy aspect of that lifestyle. I just want to look like a woman with breasts, and bodyshape, and a feminine looking face, and to live as a woman, but keep my genitaila as they are. Another thing I am attracted to GGs, so where does that put me in the labeling spectrum.
I am tired of being looked down on, because I am not ts, or because I dont drink alcoholic beverages at tg events, my dresses are too conservative, and I am JUST A CROSSDRESSER!, like it means I am a lesser person. The list goes on and on.
I accept everybody as they are, we are all equal no matter what label we choose or not choose for ourselves inside the wide spectrum of the tg community.

Can I suggest that when it comes to labels we go back to the grading system we had in school with B+ B B- etc. for lack of great definitions on the various labels? Am I just a crossdresser if I always feel and think like a guy no matter what I'm wearing? Am I still just a crossdresser if I act/walk/talk more like a woman? Still just a crossdresser if I wonder what it's really like to be a woman? To think like a woman? To think I might like to be en femme with a guy? At what point does someone become TG? I believe that a lot of us have some degree of a feminine element. I'm starting find that I enjoy rather than dread that.
I'll call myself a CDer but I honestly believe there are some shades of gray. Hence maybe I'm CD+

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vivianann

I know exactly what you mean frederique, I too have experience the disdain, or the I am better than thou type of attitude in the tg community

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I'd like to comment here, and this is not directed just at you Vivianann. I'm suggesting that your perception there is disdain or a better-than-thou attitude is one sided. Admittedly there have been a few TS members who've come off as if they are better than others, but this is only a small handful, not the entire TS community. We've had obnoxious CDers too over the years, who've had their own attitude issues. :p

What I do read consistently, is an attempt by the TSs to describe the difference between being a woman in a man's body vs. needing to use the clothing in order to feel feminine, and feeling feminine only part of the time. This is not saying that one is better than the other, in my opinion, just different.

A big part of the trouble, I think, is that no one puts labels like "TS", "CD", or "TS Questioning" behind their names, and if you encounter a supportive post you might assume it comes from a CD when in fact it was posted by a TS. :)

Frederique,

I totally identify with everything you have written here. Like you, I have been victim of condescending attitudes directed at me from a small circle of TG snobs on this site. For some reason, they seem to believe that they are above everyone else for the simple reason of the way they have chosen to walk their path in life. But you know Freddy, my friend, there are snobs like this in all walks of life. I've encountered them on the jobsite, in hobby circles I frequent, in social groups I have belonged to, and even in my relatives. These are insecure people who cannot feel satisfied until they have elevated themselves above someone else by putting the others down.

You, Freddy, are truly a gift in yourself. You are among the most expressive, fluent, and imaginative writers I have had the privilege to read. And I can agree with you that there is a simple joy in doing those little things that give us satisfaction and happiness, even if they are infrequent, noncommittal, or non-TG. Like you, I just have a little fun now and then and it makes me happy.

And you, Freddy, you make me happy too.

Yes I just like to dress like a woman. The whole en femme thing now since wife did makeup and wig. Just don't want to be a woman or with a man.

[QUOTE]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE=2]So you support attacks on me? :sad:

The people on my ignore list are there because they insist on taking my writing apart, sentence by sentence, inserting critical comments, and not offering one word in the way of original thought (for discussion). I don’t WANT to ignore them, but...well...are you familiar with the word “bully?” It troubles ME that the ones causing me to act so drastically are the last ones to be aware of THEIR injurious words, or to display a conscience by way of apology or regret…[/SIZE]

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I like your use of the word 'bully'. It does seem to fit some of the replies i've seen, to many people here, not just yours.

It seems to happen however when a good or a well thought out point is made, rather than when a simple flippant comment is made.

I cannot help but think that in some cases (perhaps only a small minority) the tone comes out unintentionally, but when it is consistent and rude, well, it does seem rather bull-ish, and i mean that in a gender specific way- it seems more head on attacking rather than a catty - female - way of negative response.

The great thing about your posts are that the ARE well written out- VERY well organized (i'd love to know if you just spit this out like this or if you write and revise prior to posting), and the simple fact that you do elucidate so many points of your subject, it makes it easy to reply to each of those points in kind.

Now I grant you sometimes it goes much farther than simple intellectual debate, not to mention friendly, but I guess that just shows that CD in general pretty much do represent a fairly representative cross section of the public in general.

I know i want to reply to each point you make, not try and tell you you are wrong, but that i might be looking at things in a different way. I guess it can be a little irritating at times, and I am so sorry for that- you are a wonderful source of ideas to ponder, kind of like a 'lao tzu' of our CD 'community' (See, i did remember your comment on 'community'!:):)

We all grow up differently though, and what I might say for instance makes good sense given my framework of experience, but I might fail to realize that it might not makes sense to someone with a different background.

I'm NOT directing this at you- i know you are aware of this- but to the people that reply critically to what you wrote: they fail to realize the possibility of the idea they oppose might actually be true for someone other than their own context.

In that case, especially if they fail to try to understand a further clarification from you, then 'ignoring' is a totally valid action.

You can never please all of the folks. When i repaired medical equipment- clients LOVED to see me when i arrived to fix stuff. And I did so very well, regularly quicker and more attentive than their past service rep- or their regular one if i was covering another area. But I'd still get complaints, often from the clients I would have least expected. Same goes with students- on my introductory class- i work hard to create a fun environment to learn in- take the stress off worrying about grades... individual attention and such, I've got one of the highest average student approval ratings, but still get some rather antagonistic remarks in the student feedback forms.

Anyway- do please continue to post your very well considered essays!

-Kristi
:hugs:

[SIZE="2"]I feel like dashing off a PM or two to explain my “position,” even though there isn’t one. This thread was merely meant to be a plea for non-TG MtF crossdressers to somehow have a “voice” on a site dedicated to crossdressers. The plea itself seems patently absurd, given the circumstances. May I suggest we all look in the hypothetical mirror and ponder who is in the “room” with us? Is that too much to ask for? I mean, I can embrace TG issues as well as the next girl – that’s a given, and I wouldn’t be HERE if I was not compassionate towards ALL types of crossdressers. It ain’t easy, no matter what your “approach” might be, or what your intentions are, according to the situation you have inherited, cultivated, or fabricated. I can dig it, OK?[/SIZE]

[SIZE="2"]I’m sure someone will now break off a piece of the above verbiage, match it up to a previous statement of mine, and attempt to discredit me in front of the gathered throng. Go ahead, you’re within the rules to do so, but you’re completely missing the point, my dear…
:straightface:[/SIZE]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

A big part of the trouble, I think, is that no one puts labels like "TS", "CD", or "TS Questioning" behind their names, and if you encounter a supportive post you might assume it comes from a CD when in fact it was posted by a TS.

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[SIZE="2"]I keep thinking about a person I met over on Rose’s Forum (in the UK) back in 2005. Her name was Lisa, and she was definitely TG, a strong “candidate” for TS, but I only saw her in the MtF section. She was alternately poised or highly emotional, happy or miserable, capable of reaching out to nearly every member on the site in some way, including me. One day, a new member lamented that she would always be a “mere” crossdresser, and never scale the “heights” towards actually becoming a woman. Lisa posted a reply along the lines of “Same here! We’re all just plain-old crossdressers, so make yourself at home…” This was an amazing statement coming from such a person, and it struck a chord with me which echoes within this thread. You know, a lot of people never declare what they ARE, which is kinda cool, in a way…

I just wish to add that I have many supportive TG, TS, and FtM friends on this site. I’m NOT insular… :battingeyelashes:[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Dana7

…I can agree with you that there is a simple joy in doing those little things that give us satisfaction and happiness, even if they are infrequent, noncommittal, or non-TG. Like you, I just have a little fun now and then and it makes me happy.

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[SIZE="2"]I think there is plenty of room here for these “non-committal” types, and, since they are amongst us anyway, their personal relationship to crossdressing needs to be respected. As I alluded to earlier, I respect transgendered individuals without hesitation – not to do so would be akin to fouling my own “nest,” however intangible it may be. However, a lot of crossdressers JUST crossdress…[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Krististeph

In that case, especially if they fail to try to understand a further clarification from you, then 'ignoring' is a totally valid action.

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[SIZE="2"]Sara Jessica made an excellent point earlier about “ignoring” certain members being detrimental to the discussion at hand, or any discussion, for that matter. I can’t speak for everyone, but if I have nothing supportive to “say,” via carefully-chosen words, in someone else’s thread, I don’t try to post in it. I figure the discussion won’t benefit from what I have to say, so I stay out of it. Oh, I can read a challenging sentence, get angered enough to respond, and then zip off a quick post that irks everyone, but, most of the time, I don’t get involved…

I don’t want to soil my effeminacy by getting mad (a masculine characteristic, IMHO) at a troller. Enter the ignore list. Also, I don’t have the time to dissect someone’s post, or thread OP, and go over it line-by-line like I’m the self-appointed Dean of the College of Transgendered Behavior correcting a thesis. I can distinctly recall typing a similar sentence to that last one on at least three other occasions, but, check it out – I just HAD to do it again! I really think I’m being tested, and I wonder why. It doesn’t matter how well I try to write these things, or how well I try to pull together all of the necessary bits vital to the topic at hand, some people will inevitably judge me as soon as I don my panties and step into the room! Tell me – is this prejudice useful, within the context of discussion, or does everything have to inevitably derail via personal attacks just to please everyone (except me, that is)?
:idontknow:

You’d be surprised at how many messages of support I get during these unintentional “skirmishes,” from “just” crossdressers and TG individuals alike. It’s an issue that exists, like it or not. Perhaps I’m opening eyes and minds to a hidden reality here, but that was not my intention at all – I just wished to voice concerns along the lines I have already transcribed, and give further voice to those who crossdress for pleasure, usually in the shadows, somewhere in the far corner of the community. We deserve to be heard and respected, just like everyone else... [/SIZE]

I think you have raised an interesting point, but I personally identify as a crossdresser. If that means that I am transgenderd, then so be it. I happen to love being a man, and I have no desire to change that. I just happen to be a man that feels comfortable painting my nails, or shaving my legs etc. In fact, when it comes to shaving, I feel that I almost 'must' do it. That my legs or chest appear weird with hair!
I also take care of myself, I moisturise and shape my eyebrows. I invest in high quality grooming products, and I enjoy getting ready to go out. Male or female!

I have worked out that although I enjoy these 'girly' things, I am still a guy. I enjoy the role I play in society and I am not interested in living as a girl. But putting on the occasional dress, or pair of tights, oh yes, now we are talking!

Hi personally for my input would say like Angela I would be happy being called "Transgendered".........I may have originally started Cross Dressing many years ago, but that was because it felt right at that time, and at that stage I had not fully explored all the Avenues, or got to experience everything that goes with it and the feeling that is within. We all evolve and change, so why do we have this constant need to put ourselves into a label or bracket ? Sure, accept and enjoy it, but one should never restrict something that does change over years..........

becky xx

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Originally Posted by Krististeph

but I guess that just shows that CD in general pretty much do represent a fairly representative cross section of the public in general.

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Yes, that applies to the transgendered community as a whole as well. Remember not everyone here I identifies as a CD, the partners/SO's surely don't. :-)

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but that i might be looking at things in a different way.

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That's what I do, in context of what I've seen over the years. I'm trying to bring the perspective of transgender community online history here.

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I'm NOT directing this at you- i know you are aware of this- but to the people that reply critically to what you wrote: they fail to realize the possibility of the idea they oppose might actually be true for someone other than their own context.

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While I'd agree to a certain extent, there are also "patterns" and "archetypes" that are there to see. Which is one reason why there's so much repetition here. History repeats because there are people who's "transness" is very similar to certain archetypes in the past.

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Anyway- do please continue to post your essays!

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I agree, but she shouldn't expect to not receive "some" criticism, sometimes. Especially from oldbies. (I know another message board that's almost entirely oldbies, quite different in tone from here.

Let me respond to a few other points made, this will be haphazard, since I didn't take the time to multi-quote, so things won't be in what I think of as the "proper threaded timeline way".

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

They actually take the time to pop the little children’s joyful balloons, steal their candy, and act all important as some sort of established standard for how MtF crossdressing OUGHT to be.

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This is not the first time you've referred to the community here using terms used for children or little girls. We are not children to be infantilized in words or otherwise. And most of the people here don't identify as "little girls".

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You CAN dress for pleasure, and it IS a valid form of crossdressing.

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I most certainly agree wholeheartedly!! I have online friends who are longtime "pleasure crossdressers" who don't have the "gender angst" and I'm glad they don't.

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since few people come right out and state “I’m THIS or THAT...”

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That's a very good point, ReineD mentioned it as well. Personally I don't think that we don't need to makeup new words as some would suggest or go back to using the older meanings as some others suggest. I think that we simply need to use MORE words to describe ourselves and be "direct" with our words. And we must also realize that words and people change all the time, and that trying to stop change, as the old King Canute myth of trying to stop the waves elucidated...is futile.

Perhaps we should be inspired by scientific nomenclature. For example a domestic cat is not just "Felis Catus" in Latin, it's really:

Kingdom: Animalia (meaning an animal, not a plant thingy that uses chlorophyll)
Phylum: Chordata (with a nerve column sometimes within a spine, subphylum is vertebrata)
Class: Mammalia (warm blooded, nurses young with boobs)
Order: Carnivora (meat eater)
Family: Felidae (Feline cat type creatures overall from big to small)
Genus: Felis (small cats)
Species: Felis catus (Kitty! Hello Kitty! You're a Kitty, yes you are!) (can you tell I have a cat?)

So one might be: Transgendered, Permanently Non-transitioning, Crossdresser, Fetishist, Single-garment, pnaties

or: Transgendered, Temporarily non-transitioning, Transsexual, Lesbian oriented, Late transitioner

or for partners/SO's: Non-transgendered, Significant other, married, wife.

It's one of the reasons why I say we need to "use our words" more.

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I DO care what others think, but if I don’t preserve ME at all costs I will lose the world – crossdressing is a selfish enterprise, to be sure, so I get a little miffed when someone tries to shake someone else’s foundation.

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People change and grow, and sometimes they need their foundations shook to do so. We aren't static beings.

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Originally Posted by Chardonnay Merlot

Freddie, you are an intellectual gunslinger...same as me And the one thing about gunslingers is -- they get shot at and sometimes get shot.

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That's an apt metaphor indeed.

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Most people in the "community" I've found don't look down on you. Maybe it is my naiveté, but I've been blessed to have found a very positive community of people across the spectrum who have been supportive and ready to educate me about the many things I don't know.

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Exactly!

I also like this post by ReineD: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2888981

Very insightful and good questions.

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[The people on my ignore list are there because they insist on taking my writing apart, sentence by sentence, inserting critical comments, and not offering one word in the way of original thought (for discussion). I don’t WANT to ignore them, but...well...are you familiar with the word “bully?” It troubles ME that the ones causing me to act so drastically are the last ones to be aware of THEIR injurious words, or to display a conscience by way of apology or regret…

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Since you refer directly to my posting method, which is actually common to USENET and how I organize my thoughts. And since I am the one who heavily used it in response. I believe you are referring to ME. So isn't that an attack on me?

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Originally Posted by Marleena

It is a personal choice and she admitted to using it. Not a big deal based on moderator's advice.

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While I agree that it's a choice to use it, There's a difference between using it quietly and never mentioning it, and using it and constantly bringing it up that she's used it and using it more in many of the threads she starts. The latter is weaponizing it.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

I know I’m being looked down upon by some because I’m a “mere” crossdresser (who writes about it), and, if I didn’t, I certainly wouldn’t bother trying to discuss this controversial subject...

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You don't actually "know", you "assume". If you think I look down on you because you're "just a crossdreser" you are quite wrong. I don't. I don't disagree with you because you're a crossdresser, it's for other reasons that have nothing to do with how you identify. If you want to know why, just ask. That goes for anyone, if you really want to know why I disagree with Frederique so strongly on some, but not all things, just ask.

And I really like yet another ReineD post: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2889732

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I can accept that many people hold the modern opinions concerning gender, and thus transgender.

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You're 73 right? Words change, language changes...no one says "yowza yowza" or 23-skidoo anymore. Ideas change, and perhaps we change with them. Putting it bluntly, you're outnumbered by the moderns who see gender differently and no one is going to go back to the old way, because it wasn't working very well. Again putting it bluntly. Are things better now for transfolk of various stripes, or were they better in 1949 when you were young? I think we can all agree that things are MUCH better now and one of the reasons is that change in ideas and words I just mentioned. Fighting the changes is like being King Canute commanding the waves to stop.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I'm suggesting that your perception there is disdain or a better-than-thou attitude is one sided. ........ We've had obnoxious CDers too over the years, who've had their own attitude issues.

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I agree!

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What I do read consistently, is an attempt by the TSs to describe the difference between being a woman in a man's body vs. needing to use the clothing in order to feel feminine, and feeling feminine only part of the time. This is not saying that one is better than the other, in my opinion, just different.

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Exactly.

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A big part of the trouble, I think, is that no one puts labels like "TS", "CD", or "TS Questioning" behind their names, and if you encounter a supportive post you might assume it comes from a CD when in fact it was posted by a TS.

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Right, which is why I think we need to use our words more and use more descriptive words to describe ourselves so there is less confusion about how someone identifies.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

This thread was merely meant to be a plea for non-TG MtF crossdressers to somehow have a “voice” on a site dedicated to crossdressers.

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But they DO! Crossdressers easily outnumber the TS identified, and post a LOT more. I don't understand how much more of a voice you want? But then again, by "crossdressers" you seem to mean the kind that doesn't go out or have some kind of transgender identity in any way. And those who do go out do post quite a bit.

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However, a lot of crossdressers JUST crossdress…

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Indeed, I've never said otherwise. In regards to real world groups, which are a self-selected subset of the community and not representative of the people here, I tend to see it this way: About 1/3 the members are never going to transition, they're confortable with the maleness. about another third have no real opinion either way though some may have some issues, the last 1/3rd are what I call Proto-TS's they have the gender angst, but most probabgly aren't going to transition because of things like family and such.

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I can’t speak for everyone, but if I have nothing supportive to “say,” via carefully-chosen words, in someone else’s thread, I don’t try to post in it. I figure the discussion won’t benefit from what I have to say, so I stay out of it.

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Interesting, thank you for posting that. Personally I believe that disagreement can add additional insight to a discussion.. What's the point if every response is a "Ditto", we learn from those who think differently from us.

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I don’t want to soil my effeminacy by getting mad (a masculine characteristic, IMHO) at a troller.

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I consider that response EXTREMELY chauvinistic and misogynistic, and I am VERY offended as a feminist. Do you think women don't get mad? My mother would get mad, my sister would get mad. I bet the SO's on these boards get mad, in fact some of them have stated that they're mad about something. That's almost a 50's mindset you got there: "women get angry, the are creatures of feminine goodness and purity, and they all want to be nurses and schoolteachers so we don't have to let them become firefighters or street cops, we shouldn't let them run for political office either, it will sully their purity" You get what I'm saying?


Veronica