Has Jenner gone too far?

The members of this site range from plain vanilla cross dressers, like me, to post operative transsexuals. So, there is a lot of like minded individuals here. Has Caitlyn Jenner really done anything to promote acceptance the "cause," whatever that may be? My family and friends think she is nothing more than a media show. She does not represent transsexuals any more than any particular 65 year old woman represents all women. They point out she has the money to transform or sculpt herself into whatever Bruce thought he could become. Most of my friends and acquaintances don't consider her and the attention paid to her anymore than another blip on the otherwise dull world of sensational media. How can Caitlyn with all her money and status and hooked up with media stars really represent transsexuals?

Now I belong to a support group that has nothing to do with sexuality, cross dressing or otherwise. One of my friends has a grandson who is in high school and is suffering through the turmoil of identity crisis. To listen to the reports of him going through life trying to discover who he is, and, the loss of friends is terrible. The kid is in the real world, while everyone I know thinks Caitlyn is in the abstract world.

Yes, Caitlyn has brought attention to the issue. However, the real people I associate with thought more highly of the several recent news reports of kids, boys and girls, who are single digit kids trying to live their lives as they see themselves. And, of course how their parents deal with the issue.

Of course, Caitlyn does not represent a person like me, a plain vanilla cross dresser. A guy, who will remain a guy, who likes to wear women's clothing. All my friends truly recognize and accept transsexual men and women, although not really understanding how this occurs, but, still cannot understand cross dressing.

I'm just hoping Caitlyn does not have a reality television show.

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Originally Posted by Stephanie47

I'm just hoping Caitlyn does not have a reality television show.

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She does now.

Whether or not she is 'deserving' of this award is something I leave to other people to decide; I certainly would not deny that she (and anyone else who comes out as trans) needs to have a lot of courage to do so but, that said, she has a lot of privileges that many trans people don't and that will cushion many of the difficulties for her. Regardless, she is certainly generating positive conversations about trans issues, which is unequivocally a good thing. However, being rich and white means that she cannot (and should not) speak for those who do not share her privileges. I personally feel that Laverne Cox is probably a better spokesperson in general for the trans community in that she is more aware of issues related to privilege and intersectionality.

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Originally Posted by Krisi

Isn't that the goal, to "successfully go stealth"? To be seen by society as a woman? To Live the life of a woman? To feel like a woman?

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Stealth is not for everyone. I try to be seen by society as a woman, but I make no secret of my trans status. I don't go around broadcasting it to strangers, but all my friends, family and colleagues know, it's on my personal web site, and I write transgender advocacy articles for an online magazine.

My position is that I'm extremely lucky to have supportive family and friends and to live in very trans-tolerant place, which has made my transition incredibly easy to date. I owe it to others who have a much harder time to be out there and to be advocating for them.

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Originally Posted by Rianna Humble

So basically you are acknowledging that the rumour you are spreading against Caitlyn Jenner came from unreliable Internet gossip and was then picked up by a British Media outlet that has such a tenuous link with the truth that if they reported that Tuesday comes between Monday and Wednesday anyone with half a brain would wonder when that stopped being true.


No Chantal, this thread has always been about a few cross-dressers who hate Caitly Jenner for speaking up successfully about the plight of transsexuals. Then you obbject when some transsexuals take issue with what they are saying.

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Are you not assuming it is false in spite of the numerous sites which are reporting it?.
As I said , I personally need more proof however, Cait has not really addressed it after all.
Assuming one is innocent without all the facts is just as bad as assuming they are guilty without all the facts, is it not?

Also, I do not I hate Cait as I have clearly stated things to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Barbara Jo

Are you not assuming it is false in spite of the numerous sites which are reporting it?.
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Until it comes from a reputable, unbiased news source and not tabloid trash then absolutely I will consider it false...

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Originally Posted by Krisi

I have observed that many of the members here are just as bigoted as the people they complain about but bigoted in a different way.

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Bigoted? Really?? I would love to hear you elaborate on this....

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Originally Posted by Krisi

And remember, this is "crossdressers.com", not "transgender.com".

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Wow. You complain about factions within the community and then come up with that.

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Originally Posted by Krisi

Isn't that the goal, to "successfully go stealth"?

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no the goal is to be who you are, a woman in the world, no stealth, not pretending. That would imply we are hiding who we are in public. Although it will never be 100%, all we want is to be us. There are factors that don't let many of us do that. Caitlyn's factor is she is a public figure and she will be scrutinized for every little move or action. Even here where people are already questioning her. Trial with out jury.

Those of us who live the life know what she is going through in a small way. I don't see why people here are so critical. Let her actions prove or disprove her words.

My feelings on this are bitter / sweet. Although caitlin Jenner's time in the media has fueled uncomfortable situations for me personally. I will say this , I don't think she has gone to far at all! It is great that we have this community and can all lean on one another for support . However I don't think she or any of us have a greater responibity to the cross dressing or TG community. We all have our own modivatons and goals in all aspects of our lives and our first respondibility is to ourselves. To me it seems like she is reaching for her own dreams ,to be the person she always wanted to be and what's wrong with that ? Can you imagine living all those years in that envoiorment.. Surrounded 24/7 by all those beautiful woman , and the fashion , make up , femininity and glamour that is wrapped up in the kardashian life style and not be able to get in on it. and pretend it didn't interest you. Hell it kills me to walk by Victoria secret or DSW and pretend I don't want everything in the window for myself. Lol
I don't really have an oppinion on the award but she has shown an unbelievable amount of courage.
For my own personal reasons I wish she would shut the hell up and go away.
But the fact is its her journey and she has the right do what is right for her. I wish her all the best. No matter how many times I have to say " no honey just because Jenner secretly wanted to transition dosnt mean that I do "

Ps . You have to admit she is gorgeous !

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Originally Posted by Krisi

Isn't that the goal, to "successfully go stealth"? To be seen by society as a woman? To Live the life of a woman? To feel like a woman?

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LOL

Yeah well, best laid plans and whatnot.

That would be a goal of mine if it was at all possible. You see, what people who keep secrets don't understand is that the coming out process never really ends. The first year of transition is all about coming out. Hell in that first year you come out by walking out the door. It's a rough year. Gradually it gets better (for some of us) and then you find yourself in these blissful little 'stealth' moments. Then your co-worker mis-genders you (accidentally) and boom you're right back 'out'.

Eventually if you're lucky you find a new job, and you're holding your breath because it seems like people don't 'know'. I feel a little bit weird about being in the closet again, but I guess it's better on this side right? It's been 3 years after all so maybe just maybe, I can leave my past behind. I never really thought it was possible but... oh crap, is that my old distribution rep? Jeez he's looking at me. Oh hey how ya doin? Yeah, I'm working here now, yeah, it's good to see you again. (as he's walking out the door with a group of my new colleagues) Well I guess that will be an interesting lunch.

No worries about keeping that secret now. Hello world I'm out again!

Before I transitioned, I had goals, and plans, and opinions, and feelings, ...and then I pulled the pin. Funny thing about a Tranny Grenade(tm), it tends to blow everything up.

For those of you who think that Ms Jenner is not qualified, or not worthy, or not authentic, I challenge you to pull that pin yourself. I'll betcha you get a new perspective.

Well said

I think she is managing her public transition (she had no choice but to make it public) as best she can and for the most part most in the gender-variant community will benefit from her undertaking. As far as questioning why she got the Arthur Ashe award, you should at least look at who else has gotten it and then I think you will better understand why they, yes they selected her. Many recipients were first in some aspect other than just the sport they competed in. Billie Jean King, Cathy Freeman....
Could there be others equally worthy, undoubtedly yes but I can certainly see why she is worthy of it as well and I give ESPN some props for picking someone who may be more controversial than another.

Badtranny,

You are good! Nicely stated.

I think it's a poor show to have so much vitriole expressed here. It's this sort of thing that turns people off from wanting to visit the site. This Cd/Ts divide is staggeringly ludicrous and shameful.

The perceived "CD/TS divide" is only due to the attitude of a very few individuals. The great majority of us, regardless of our position on the spectrum, are supportive of our entire community.

Also, if someone has an issue with any given TS or CD, it does not translate into them being against the whole TS or CD community.... or even against the person is question.
They might simply be discussing some side issue concerning an individual.



One should no more stereo type TSs or CDs any more than any other groups.
We can no more give anyone a free pass in everything any more than falsely accusing them of something
can we at least agree to these two things? :)

Misty is absolutely correct. I am outed constantly by my employees. It's not intentional. But when people know you for many years of just comes out. I was at the supply house the other day. The owner I've known for 40 years. He introduced me to a customer at the counter. As we were talking he remarked, he's a good contractor. Oops outed again. Yeah the goal is live as stealth as possible. But as a late transitioner. It's impossible. Transition is a very public process. You can't escape that. I went to the enterologist to get pre surgery clearance. I hadn't been there in 6 years. I went there and told them my name and gender had been changed. The nurse thought that was awesome. The other nurse on the other side of the room said she should be in the computer. The first nurse whispered (there were others in the waiting room) Jenner.
The second nurse's eyes lit up. "Ohh ok". Another great example that there is no real stealth for us. And the impact Jenner has had. I didn't need to get into an entire explanation.

We all do what we have to live authentically. Jenner has advantages many of us would want. She also has issues being in the public eye most of us wouldn't want. I'm just glad I don't have to transition as publicly as Caitlyn.

Caitlyn Jenner has decided that since she will not be able to just go be a woman in peace, to take it all head on and use her celebrity status as a tool for transgender awareness and education. For that, I commend her on, as it must be a very brave and difficult thing to do. For the most part, I think she is doing ok with it all as well. No one is perfect, she has and will make mistakes from time to time. In the end, the attention, the awareness, while some harm will come of it, there will be more good than harm that comes from it.

As for the ESPY's- I feel that this was not an award she should have gotten. There is already a lot of attention and spotlight to what she is doing. I feel that the others who were in consideration for the award should have gotten it. I personally do not feel it was the place to get such an award. I believe that unfortunately ESPN sold out for ratings with Jenner getting the award. Sometimes we need to give awards to the most deserving individual, which for the award that Jenner got, in the arena which she got it, should have gone to someone more deserving. Perhaps if there wasn't already so much media coverage of Caitlyn's transition I may feel different. I would have rather seen it given to someone who had not received any media recognition or the many accolades already given to Caitlyn on her public transition.

To the OP question: No, I don't think Caitlyn has gone too far. But some here believe my opinion has no value because I'm a closeted crossdresser. Or maybe it has value but only because my opinion agrees with theirs.

To the ESPY Courage Award: It's not a contest, not a prize for the MOST courageous person of the year. It's not won, it's awarded - to a person ESPN chooses to honor for courage, and it always seems to have a strong connection to current events. I read the list of past recipients. Caitlyn's selection is appropriate, but at the worst, not inappropriate. Don't like it? Start your own Courage Award.

I watched the ESPY'S this past Wednesday night and I must admit it, but I cant remember ever wanting to before. I watched the entire broadcast just to see Caitlyn, not Lebron or the lovely Ms Rousey and I wasn't disappointed. Her speech
was not only important but an important one to listen to. I didn't expect a side show, no exotic megavoltage Bond spree, no overblown falsetto- Lady Bunny improve, no camera close ups of her boobs or her hips or the spot where her
adams apple use to wiggle, and ABC was intelligent and respectful enough to oblige me. Just 5 years ago this could not have been done as tastefully as it was....

Did she go too far? Not in my eyes. In fact, she opened doors, lifted veils, broke open barriers and made life for all tg people, (which includes me) a life that is 99 percent hard as hell, a little easier..

All we can do is sit back and see what happens with CJ and all the trans press, bitching among ourselves isn't doing any good is it?

I am proud of Caitlyn for what she has done for herself and for our community. I felt her speech was great! It wasn't just about her but about issues that the transgender community face. Her coming out did give me the courage to come out to one of my circle of friends. It turned out to be a positive moment. However, it would be nice to be able to afford her wardrobe, especially that Versace dress.

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Originally Posted by SharonDenise

I felt her speech was great!

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I'm happy and proud for Caitlyn, but to be honest I was slightly underwhelmed by her speech. I found Lana Wachowski's acceptance speech when she received the HRC Visibility Award much better and more entertaining. Warning: Long, and it takes a few minutes to get really good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crHHycz7T_c

I liked Lana's speech alot as well..

Remember she is an artist and movie director...alot more talent that i think shines through

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Originally Posted by Ilsa

I'm beginning to believe that Caitlyn has taken her transition to the point of exploitation

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She has been brainwashed to do so after years with Kris Kardashian
but this is how Caitlyn will pay the bills now.

Bruce was a professional motivational/keynote speaker
and knew that he'd lose those opportunities unless he "went big"
with this story. So it was probably just as much a business decision.

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Originally Posted by Cindi Johnson

We need to stand up and be upfront with the world. Until we do, we will never be accepted. Caitlyn Jenner has done this, and I, for one, thank her for it.

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^this. Most of my life has been laced with misery because of the gender problems swirling around in my head. Yes, I know that we need to make out presence more known to the rest of the world before we're accepted, but I just don't have the strength to go through the social ringer anymore. Caitlyn stands front and center for all of us and takes it. She knows how many people out there hate who and what she is, but has the strength of mind to deal with it. I wish I did. Not all of us are warriors.

I didn't understand all those people who think that she did this all for the publicity and self aggrandizement, until someone else reminded me that it's mostly OTHER people who would think about doing that type of thing are the ones most likely to accuse her of it.

For despite what anyone wants to believe, her coming out to the world has changed it substantially. Those who didn't know about transgenders now do; those who were misinformed are learning whether they like it or not (and lots of them will only learn while being dragged kicking and screaming with their hands covering their ears and eyes trying to deny we exist). Christine Jorgensen started it, but then disappeared from the news. Now we have Caitlyn, who's going to be in the media all the time. She is not one to just 'go away' quietly. I think that the fire that raged and made her the best all around athlete in the world 40 years ago is still burning hot, just with a different passion this time around.

I may not be on the front lines. But I know that I can make a difference in a different way. I will find and support a transgender safe house with what I can afford to donate, and contribute whatever I can.

probably both perspectives are right:

everyone has an inner self-interest and an inner altruist, and I see both in action here. If you can't see his actions are helpful, then you have forgotten the maxim that "all publicity is good publicity". That he benefits from it - so what?

Pamela,

"his" actions?? Do you mean "her"?? Please clarify

"her" indeed, not an intentional wording, but revealing the dangers of not thinking about political correctness before writing, especially here. Apologies to all offended.

That slip up is exactly what those of us that transition experience on a daily basis with employees, customers, families and friends.

Yikes...Political correctness??????
Pretty incredible

that's not the right reason to call Caitlyn by her proper pronoun.....

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

Yikes...Political correctness?????? ..

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LOL that was my first thought. Ooops gotta get the pronouns right or they'll be upset. Even someone who secretly dresses like a woman doesn't have any regard for the plight of the TranSitioner, but I guess that's the point isn't it.

The funny thing is that single post illustrates the divide between the dressers and the lifers better than anything I could have ever written.

They simply don't understand Kait. Their hobby aside, the idea that a transsexual is fundamentally NOT a man is just not registering. They truly believe that the only difference between them and us, is that we cross dress full time. Within that context it's absolutely forgivable that they think the pronouns are all about being polite.

I've said it before, there is clearly no spectrum with CD on one end and TS on the other. I'm open to an argument about a homosexual spectrum that works in the trans phenomenon, but nothing about my life is predicated on a desire for any particular underpants.

There have been a few veiled comments (perhaps the more direct ones were deleted) suggesting that the 'TS faction' was being divisive on this issue, but what we're really doing is just defending a sister in a forum where the need to do so was unexpected. It's interesting to me that the TS community is mostly of one mind across the social media landscape. There are certainly some trans detractors, but for the most part this is the first issue in the new millennium that hasn't split the trans community in half. Even the opportunist Molloy has come out on the right side of this, and that pretty much means that there really is no conflict to stir up. Everyone of any note is surrounding Ms Jenner and we are essentially taking quite a beating on FB, Twitter, etc. The volume of hate is overwhelming and I gotta say, it is more than a little bit frightening to realize how much of this country doesn't respect our lives, forget respecting the damn pronouns, they don't want us to exist at all.

It's pretty wild to write something to counter an awful comment on FB and then temporarily become the target of so much vitriol, and that's just a fraction of what Jenner is dealing with. I was a radio personality in my old town back in the '90s so I was a little too well known for me to deal with transitioning there. I moved because I didn't have the courage to explore anything there, and I wasn't really THAT well known. It was mostly in my head and frankly I was mostly forgotten. Even so, I moved to another part of the state so I could have some space. Ms Jenner does not have that luxury. There is no where in America where she could escape scrutiny. She tried having feminization procedures done in secret but the paps were hounding her every move. Look at Bruce's hair, look at Bruce's moobs, look at Bruce's nose, look at his adam's apple, etc etc.

What Jenner is doing is like transition on steroids. Yes she has money and time for procedures but she also is under a microscope that none of us can even begin to comprehend. Unlike some of the stuff I read here in our own TS forum, pretty much everything Caitlyn is saying about her transition rings very authentic to me. Most of it is uncomfortably familiar and she is undoubtedly walking the same horrifying path that so many of us here have walked. I can't recall one comment she's made regarding her transition that sounded like BS to me, and I think that's why the overwhelming majority of TS broads have her back. We really believe she is one of us.

She is not a perfect person or a perfect transgender spokesperson, but ...I think reasonable people know that there are no perfect people. Nobody's perfect at anything. Except Bruce Jenner on a certain day in 1976, when he ran, and jumped, and threw his way into the record books. We know today that he was actually running from Caitlyn, don't you think that maybe she has earned the right to finally stop running?

Caitlyn Jenner didn't create the media sideshow. After 39 years of varying degrees of notoriety, she could neither escape it, nor hide from it.

Is the media coverage tiresome? Only to the extent that it feeds of the inevitable and seemingly insatiable human appetite for salacious gossip. But to some extent, a little, factual and empathetic content slips through. Many people are learning. Many people are gaining new insights and, perhaps, a bit more capable of feeling a measure of empathy.

Hi I'm very new here, so forgive me if I've covered existing ground, but...years ago I had a beautiful head of stunning red hair. It went the way of the world, alas. Then Bruce Willis came along. I get double taken sometimes for him since I'm bald. What a relief. I worship him. Now Kaitlyn Jenner has come along. What a relief. I now worship her as well. Let's face it, if I can look like her at 65 and pull it off in front the entire US and world media, I'm in. Good for her. I know, well I suppose everyone here does, what she has had to live through and it is horrible. Glad to see it, about time.

Belle

its not so easy nor intentional Melissa, I have a F2M "daughter" who we use "he" for, because we have practiced. We know he is is he in a female body, and yet its not easy to remember as he-she's not had the op (yet).
With regard to Caitlyn, formerly Bruce, mentally we/I still have "Bruce" in our heads. We're not being intentionally rude, nor racist/transphobic, nor are we being inconsiderate, we are just conditioned for 50+ years and express a perception without thinking that we have to edit for pronouns for people we had first encountered in the other gender.

So perhaps the message here is to cut some slack on pronouns or delete all gender-referring ones. Only in English are pronouns possessive anyway, in spanish german french they follow the object, invariant. We've enough to worry about without over-reacting over a mistake.

That was very aptly put. Please feel free to correct my grammar or usage - I know all too well what an inadvertent slipped word or concept can do to a discussion, and it is almost always never intentional in my experience, just simple cultural ineptness or unfamiliarity. So in that spirit, educate away - I'm quite interested in developing usage norms actually because, as in my case, it is a process of self definition and ownership, i.e., self worth, and that is always a key

Having seen all the comments so far I thought I would add this in response to the original question

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A Soldier Who Got Tired Of Reading That Caitlyn Jenner Isn’t A Hero Wrote An Amazing Response

“What if I told you that her speech last night saved even one human being from attempting to take their life.”

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I am going to agree with Pamela on this. I do not feel compelled not to call Caitlin Bruce, or refer as he instead of she. By all means I am always for referring to anyone who wishes to be called and considered what they wish to be. 40 years of He and Bruce does not get erased easily, no matter who we are, even us. One would hope that even those who are going through transition after so many years as the wrong sex should be able to at least forgive us who always knew them or thought of them as their prior name and gender.

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its not so easy nor intentional Melissa, I have a F2M "daughter" who we use "he" for, because we have practiced. We know he is is he in a female body, and yet its not easy to remember as he-she's not had the op (yet).

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I do not see what the use of the correct pronouns has to do with whether he (not he-she) has had the op or not.

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With regard to Caitlyn, formerly Bruce, mentally we/I still have "Bruce" in our heads. We're not being intentionally rude, nor racist/transphobic, nor are we being inconsiderate, we are just conditioned for 50+ years and express a perception without thinking that we have to edit for pronouns for people we had first encountered in the other gender.

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It is rude and inconsiderate not to refer to a transsexual by their proper gender. People make mistakes and all transsexuals get misgendered. We accept that but in the current context of this thread, and all the attention currently on Caitlyn, it is astounding that you can mis-gender her.

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Only in English are pronouns possessive anyway, in spanish german french they follow the object, invariant.

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We are communicating (or not) in English.

I really do not find how it is astounding when thinking of someone who I have seen for 40 years on tv, and not sometimes refer to that person as they were. Wasn't it just a few months ago CJ was admitting to be TG, and was doing so presenting as male, and still being called Bruce? People who we have known or known of for 40 years and they make a sudden announcement that they are TG and wish to be called by a female name, changing to "her" and their preferred name does not just happen like a light switch. I do try to refer to CJ by the name she wishes and her preferred gender pronoun. But seriously, 40 years of being BJ and he, and just a few months of CJ and she, and if we don't get it right its horrible?

All you have to do is read your post before you submit it and check the pronouns. Is that so difficult?

and yet MISS Sally Smith becoming MISSUS Bob Jones doesn't trip people up :idontknow: But that wasn't the OP was it?

I have discovered that I am a lot more than a CD, now as to being TS, this is what I need to sort out, and being out en femme in public a lot, I have become very sensitive to misgendering. For me to present as a woman and be misgendered is not very pleasant. So I make sure that I do not misgender others. Now being referred to as ma'am or miss makes me feel good.

To misgender someone by mistake is something I can understand. After all none of us is perfect. To do it deliberately or to not make an effort to gender someone correctly is just plain wrong. Sadly it seems some people even on this forum do not care about misgendering someone.

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

. . . Their hobby aside, the idea that a transsexual is fundamentally NOT a man is just not registering. They truly believe that the only difference between them and us, is that we cross dress full time. Within that context it's absolutely forgivable that they think the pronouns are all about being polite.

I've said it before, there is clearly no spectrum with CD on one end and TS on the other.

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Melissa,

I enjoy your posts and your insights as I do many others here but I have to admit that the use of your term "hobby" is disconcerting. You have lashed out at the CD community writ large for not understanding the TS community and what it means to you be a woman. Granted, I am fully cognizant that some who water here do make that mistake but then again to assume that this is a hobby would imply that one can merely go their merry way at the drop of the hat should it not suit their fancy. As much as many a CDer may wish to proclaim that is it is only about the clothes, I would suspect that a certain modicum "gender dysphoria" is at play since very few if any can truly quit this "hobby". So your comments IMO indicate a lack of understanding on what it means to some of us be stranded along this spectrum.

As for the spectrum, how do you explain people like me. On some days I identify as a woman and on others I identify as a man. Now, you might think "impossible, you are one or the other", but then again it wasn't long ago when people thought it was impossible to believe you were a gender opposite to your sex birth. I am quite public and to some degree have given up everything to be "who I am" and that includes going public in my work place. So while not TS, I do not consider myself "just a dresser".

Respect goes both ways.

Isha.

Its interesting that when a few cds misgender someone or a few haters criticize CJ then suddenly we as a group are stereotyped as simply not understanding and that we as a group all feel the way that those FEW do. As a cd I dont misgender people who are ts, I fully understand that CJ is completely a woman and wether or not we knew it she always was, and I definately recognize the courage it must take for her to come out and transition before the world and the awareness that she is bringing to our community. Just sayin.

Grace, some will do it deliberately because they do not feel that someone who is TG is ever anything but what they are born as. Even after GRS, they still will feel they are not another gender. Others may do it just to do it. When it comes to almost everyone on this forum, any misgendering is not due to any of us not caring. Just as with CJ, for those who initially signed up and were CDers, and identified as male, then later on identified as female, for any of us to use the wrong pronoun, especially in the beginning shouldn't be the end all of travesties. I am sure it hurts those who we misgender, but really, for a very long time, they misgendered themselves too. I am not saying it should ever be a pass to keep doing it, but I think those who are identifying themselves differently need to give some leeway to others about it all.

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I am sure it hurts those who we misgender, but really, for a very long time, they misgendered themselves too.

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It is okay for you to do it because they have struggled with it and suppressed it all their lives.

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I am not saying it should ever be a pass to keep doing it, but I think those who are identifying themselves differently need to give some leeway to others about it all.

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So you are saying it should not be a pass but should be a pass.
All it takes is to read what you have written before you post.

that's right Emma, I did not even think nor realise to gender-edit my post. my error. all i can do it try to be sure i don't repeat the error, by gender-checking all my posts hereafter.
i'm not going to take any s**t thought for what it was.

Catilyn has effected my life in a positive way. Since her coming out my wife of 44 yrs and I have had more discussions in the last month of my being TG then we have had in our whole marriage.
Terri

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

Grace, some will do it deliberately because they do not feel that someone who is TG is ever anything but what they are born as.

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Exactly. This is where the haters in various "comments" sections think they are being really clever. "Oooh, look...I called Caitlyn "he", ain't I just hilarious". Fact of the matter is that there is a more insensitive term out there used by the idiots who amp up their so-called cleverness by referring to anyone TS as "it".

These uses of words both minimizes the trans condition and in the case of the latter one, utterly dehumanizes the individual.

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Originally Posted by jasminepp

Its interesting that when a few cds misgender someone or a few haters criticize CJ then suddenly we as a group are stereotyped as simply not understanding and that we as a group all feel the way that those FEW do.

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It is because if anyone should know better, it's anyone participating in these pages.

Besides, as has been said before, we have the ability to proofread our words here which takes away the excuse of "not having a filter" when using our words in speech.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Isha

Respect goes both ways.

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Indeed it does.

Keep in mind that most of us recognize the (unwritten?) rule that says to gender the person in accordance with their presentation, whether dealing with one who is TS (duh!), CD or anywhere in between. Yet on the M2F CD side of the fence, there are some who do not wanted to be addressed as she or her. I think these individuals are in the minority and I will always be cautious by gendering the person in accordance with their appearance. I have yet to be corrected. This is both common sense and playing the odds which are heavily in your favor if you gender the person on their appearance.

Reminds me of those times when I get "sir'ed" when presenting as a female. it's like, "what part of my appearance makes you think sir in any way, shape or form???"

Oh, don't even answer that!!! ;)

Just chiming in as a response to the original question.

No, I don't believe that she has gone too far. I do, however, believe that a lot of us haven't gone far enough, and I'm not talking how far from the closet we wander. Sometimes, it's NOT just about the clothes. It's about things that we can't see. For us plain ol' CDers, we can put on as many frillies as we like, but that doesn't change what we are inside. Apparently we can still be judgemental, overly-critical, intolerant, etc....I've said this once before, and I'll try not to repeat it over and over, but just because I wear a skirt, that doesn't give me the right to act like a b!tch.

In regards to Ms. Jenner, and the public aspect of it, it seems to be a case of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't"...Criminy!!!! Please walk a mile in her heels before you decide not to cut her any slack.

In regards to The Espy's...Yes, they were created by a "Sports" Network, but each award has its own designation. The Arthur Ashe Award is NOT based on sports performances, current or past. It is based on "Courage". And yes, there are many deserving nominees, but as in any "award", there can only be one winner. I won't dignify the rumor mills as too why/how Ms. Jenner won. Nor do I care about ESPN's motivations. "Maybe we all deserve an Espy"???? Only if they come in different sizes so that we can see just how brave we are in our struggles in comparison to others. I mean, size matters, right?(how do I find the sarcasm emoticon thingy?)...I, myself, would be appalled if anyone were to think that what I go through in my day to day life is ANYTHING like what Ms. Jenner, and the TS' here go through on a moment-by-moment basis!

All I really care about is being able to see one person, being seen by millions of people, standing tall and speaking eloquently, honestly and sincerely, and in the process, actually making a real difference in the real world...Not the "real" world of the K's Clan, but in the real world of the young girl/boy and their families/friends watching, listening and hopefully gaining a touch of understanding regarding an issue that previously, to them, was not acknowledged, for whatever reasons.

Is Ms. Jenner the first ever? No. Is she the best ever? No. Does she deserve to be judged against those who came before? No.

I have to hit "Post" now, else I'll go off on a rant.

Love to her, and all!

Jaye