Differing Opinions

Sorry to call you out, but both gendermutt and flatlander_48 are examples of non-TS creating semantic confusion. (And both well-intentioned, as I pointed up in a previous post.)

The reference to people outside the community is useful. When I tell someone I'm transitioning, it is unambigously received by the general public as "sex change" ... in turn used as a proxy for changing gender role and presentation ... permanently. Why don't they include SRS in the understanding of "sex change"? Got me, but they will ask IF you're getting "the operation" in connection with it. Tell someone you're transitioning because you're taking hormones (and that's it), and you'll have to unwind their understanding.

On the other hand, tell them that you're transitioning but that your medical decisions are frankly none of their business and they'll generally understand that, too. It's why I do occasionally use the term social transition to let people know I'm not going to be talking about anything but socially relevant aspects of my transition.

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Originally Posted by LeaP

They don't. They do. It has.

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Shouldn't we be able to find a place here for those that Carlene is talking about?

To what end?

Perhaps they are better off in a gender variant forum - because, as a practical matter, that is the life they will lead.

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Originally Posted by LeaP

Sorry to call you out, but both gendermutt and flatlander_48 are examples of non-TS creating semantic confusion. (And both well-intentioned, as I pointed up in a previous post.)

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LP:

I'm not sure what your objection is, so I would ask you to explain.

However, I don't see this as creating semantic confusion when what I said was intended to be a distilled version of some common terms. Also, there is a major difference between what I would say to someone outside the community and what you might say to the same person. I was speaking in generalities with the purpose of providing information. You would be speaking about your personal experiences. The conversations would be significantly different.

I also steered away from explaining the details of what one would do, that would be observable or demonstratable, to crossdress or to transition. That would be the 2nd or 3rd level of the conversation. The text that I wrote would be the 1st pass. As a community we seem to have difficulty in defining concepts that should be pretty straightforward.

As it relates to your 2nd paragraph, what precedes your telling someone that you are transitioning? It would seem that the conversation should start with the concepts of gender identity and gender dysphoria in order to provide context for the information that you are transitioning. If conversations start with "I'm transitioning" people would have no foundation for receiving your information.

A parallel would be the discussions that took place about same-sex marriage. Starting with "For true equality, everyone should be allowed to marry." doesn't get you very far because there is not basis for understanding the statement. But, if the conversation were started by saying "Under federal law, there are 1138 rights and privileges that depend upon marital status.". Then, you explain what a few of those are, how they are beneficial to opposite-sex couples and then how they negatively impact same-sex couples. That becomes the basis for understanding why same-sex marriage was such an important issue. We should be using the same methodology within our community.

DeeAnn

There, I haven't been here for weeks, months and still the same discussions we have had years ago. And I always thought "transitioner" meant "in the process to become" transitioned which means you are fully integrated as a woman in your social and professional environment.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin

There, I haven't been here for weeks, months and still the same discussions we have had years ago.

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Well, we could call it Glacial Swiftness or perhaps Soap Opera Cadence? Either way, snails would run rings around us...

DeeAnn

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Originally Posted by stefan37

The difference Reine of those of us that crossdressed for years posting in the CD section. We have experience of what that is like. Ok some of us eventually transitioned. But certainly my experience has validity.

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Yes, of course it does. But do you think it wise to tell a newbie GG posting in the Loved Ones section about her husband's apparent (by all her descriptions) CDing, that there is a chance he might be TS, or should you wait until you know more than just one post, or until her husband joins so you can have a chance to see where he (or she) is coming from. What percentage of the 6,000 members will end up transitioning - 200, 100, 50, 25? So do we tell everyone who comes in here that their husbands (or new CDers if they first ask questions about makeup, going out, etc) *might* be TS?

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Originally Posted by LeaP

But can you claim anything more than a bare intellectual understanding of a male crossdresser's inner experience? Isn't the extensibility of your crossdressing experience limited just as a crossdresser can only glean a limited understanding of ours?

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Right! So when people who identify as TS and who are transitioning, say there is only one spectrum beginning with CDers and ending with TSs and they relate to the CDers who post about their experiences (when they say, "I know how you feel because I have felt exactly as you do"), I have sometimes wondered if they need to take more time to get to know themselves.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

So do we tell everyone who comes in here that their husbands (or new CDers if they first ask questions about makeup, going out, etc) *might* be TS?

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I think you would be hard pressed to find an example of that from any of the current transitioning members

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Originally Posted by Kathryn Martin

There, I haven't been here for weeks, months and still the same discussions we have had years ago. And I always thought "transitioner" meant "in the process to become" transitioned which means you are fully integrated as a woman in your social and professional environment.

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This would seem the simplest and least ambiguous approach.

Though I am curious. It seems to me that many TS are quite concerned about gaining employment and being acknowledged at work as a woman yet most of the women I know (at least in my profession) are more concerned about being acknowledged at work as a person, a person who is good at their job. Their gender is (or at least should be) irrelevant.

Rianna, just read some of the threads in the Loved Ones section.

Adina, genetic women have traditionally been the underlings and because of this a woman wants to be respected for her work, not discriminated against because she is a woman. Still, she and everyone else knows and accepts her as a woman. Transwomen also don't want to be discriminated against for being women, but at the same time they do want to be recognized as women and not as "this person who used to be a man".

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Originally Posted by flatlander_48

I also steered away from explaining the details of what one would do, that would be observable or demonstratable, to crossdress or to transition. That would be the 2nd or 3rd level of the conversation. The text that I wrote would be the 1st pass. As a community we seem to have difficulty in defining concepts that should be pretty straightforward.
DeeAnn

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This concept is as straightforward as we want it to be. However, we tend to complicate the heck out of things because we're intellectuals.

Just take the concept of "woman" for example and look at how that has changed over the generations. There was a time when being a "woman" is associated with wearing dresses or looking like Marilyn Monroe. But that stereotype was later rebuked because many women like wearing something else and enjoy... well, not looking like Marilyn Monroe.

Now, the concept of "woman" is so diverse that you can hardly find any consensus within the same culture, let alone across different age groups and regions of the world.

This forum is populated with a group of intellectuals who are obsessed with definitions. And like the DSM-5, we are essentially trying to label a phenomena which is complex, multifactorial, and subjective.

At least DSM-5 is based partly on research and epidemiological data, what we have here on the forum are a group of people with unique experiences trying to exert their opinions based mainly on anecdotal experience.

In the end, it boils down the most vocal group of individuals to define what these terms mean, at least when the terms are being used in this forum.

Their theories and observations can neither be empirically proven nor disproved.

I'm not saying that definitions are not important because I believe they facilitate communication.

But to be pedantic about it only serves to invalidate others and disrupts communication.

I don't remember women arguing if "one is more 'woman' than the other", so why are we so bothered with who is more 'trans' than others?

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

... My tribe are all fully transitioned gals who don't have secret lives. I am not passing judgement on those who are closeted, I'm merely making a distinction. They are different. They may have excellent reasons for being different, but they have chosen to NOT be a part of our tribe, to not share our struggle, to not join us on the front lines in the push for acceptance....

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There is a distinction between between 'not choosing' and 'not ready'. We all have our own battles to fight before we are 'ready' to take the plunge. Just like every soldier needs to be trained before they are ready for combat. A soldier in training could be just as eager to fight as the rest of their comrades and to say that they have 'chosen' not to participate in battle is insulting.

You can be and feel exclusive in that tribe of yours, but count me out.

Love,
S

i think there is a difference between not choosing and not ready as well
but as i've said many times, a woman is a woman....ts or not.......and in many other posts misty has been crystal clear that a big reason for being here is to communicate with the "not ready"

thats why i am here too

and frankly i am fiercely protective of those people...it is a brutal stark place to be a woman that cant or wont transition....its horrible..i have been there, and it sucks...
and i feel blessed to be able to share my experience with them and hopefully have a positive influence..
and when i see stuff that just aint the way it is, and i see people projecting their gender identities on to struggling ts women or men, or when i see fantasy/non constructive patterns in ts women,
i post my thoughts...

not transitioned ts people are not well served by "you go girl", cd's trying to redefine and assume their identities, and intellecual masturbation... and for those of us that transition, this forum is a small microcosm of how we are viewed..
lots of supporters, lots of disbelievers, lots of dreamers and lots of people that tell us about something they do not comprehend...

i would be shocked to find out 2+2=5...if it were really five, i would have no way to know this because of how i understand the world...
transition = 5

and last thing...

this doesnt mean GD is exclusive to ts women or men...its not UNsupportive of cd's to focus on ts people
all experience is valid but claiming false experience is not constructive, everyone is welcome to post but they must own their posts, and accept reasoned and informed responses even if they don't like them
transition is brutal but it can be managed and executed successfully most of the time..
and pls don't insult my intelligence...i'm aware some people have no $$, having crippling comorbid mental health issues, or they are buried in a religious family,etcetc and have a much tougher road than others...

alot of the conversations i get into are about people getting their feelings hurt over those things...the hurt feelings inject intellectually barren strawmen into many conversations here..

for example sarah...nobody says "i'm more trans than you...NOBODY"...and yet you repeat it over and over... you falsely conflate saying "im transsexual and here is what i did to transition" with i'm more trans than you... and frankly, some people are transsexual, everybody else is not.... what would have us say..

and you implicitly impugn the motives and thoughts of people you've basically accused of elitism, then you say there are way to many people obsessed with definitions, fair enough...but you are obsessed with imponderable ideas period..

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Originally Posted by flatlander_48

... I'm not sure what your objection is, so I would ask you to explain.

...what I said was intended to be a distilled version of some common terms. Also, there is a major difference between what I would say to someone outside the community and what you might say to the same person. ...You would be speaking about your personal experiences. ...

... The text that I wrote would be the 1st pass. As a community we seem to have difficulty in defining concepts that should be pretty straightforward.

As it relates to your 2nd paragraph, what precedes your telling someone that you are transitioning? ...

A parallel would be ... [legal and social commentary]

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You are redefining common terms. It's that simple. The rest of world isn't nearly as confused (or perhaps agenda-laden) as some here. I explained that when I said that when I tell someone "I'm transitioning" they already have a clear idea of what that means - and it happens to match what the vast majority of TS say. I.e., changing from one gender presentation and role to another, full-time, permanently.

What precedes that for me? Telling people that I'm transsexual. (rarely, "transgender" - a term that I'm making efforts to abandon competely) Example - a real one: I had a new hairdresser. I sat down, she asked what I wanted. I said, almost word for word, "Here's the deal. I'm transsexual and will be transitioning. I would like a compromise cut that allows me to brush it back at work, but will still work with a hairpiece on top to achieve a feminine result, basically a modified bob cut." That was followed by her delighted reaction and subsequent description of a trans person she knew. I've used a similar script with others. They *invariably* understand exactly what I'm saying. No ambiguity. Ever.

I have no issue with your use of "crossdresser, partly because I'm NOT one. So, close enough, and it's brief and non-nuanced besides.

Your use of "transgender" to denote some sort of mixed or partial identity is a shorthand use within the community. It is also a redefinition of the term, both in formal terms (the umbrella usage, which is primary), and in common parlance (the general public almost always understands "transgender" to denote "transsexual." Your usage REQUIRES a nuanced and detailed explanation. Moreover, you've overloaded it with assumptions (e.g., spectrum concepts), overlayed activities and end points, then conflated identity, presentation, and dysphoria. I.e., semantic confusion. On a the 1st pass, no less! Your "distillation" of transsexual and transitioner suffer the same issues.

You mention that you use these definitions and explanations when speaking with the outside world. I'm dismayed, frankly. While I respect your desire to educate people and I recognize your sincerity, the representations you are making regarding transsexuals and transition do not represent my views, or the view of the majority of people like me. Since I also don't think they correspond with the general public's notions, I see it as introducing the semantic confusion that exists within the community TO the outside.

Extending issues of definition and semantics into legalities and politics is an inapt parallel. The law requires hard definitions and/or derivation rules that lead to clarity, either directly or by extension of principle. The workout between arriving at clear language meaning versus legal definition and treatment are *completely* different. The first is a formal exercise in semantics. The second is fundamentally a negotiation. Your definitions are soft besides, serving neither.

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Originally Posted by sarahcsc

You can be and feel exclusive in that tribe of yours, but count me out.

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LOL, well played.

Anyhoo, this isn't a place to talk about why we're NOT transitioning. In this little group, we prefer to discuss how each of us has faced and overcome those obstacles that seem insurmountable from the outside. Your advice may be to just avoid transition altogether, well hell that's my advice too.

Unfortunately some people will transition regardless of how crazy it is and those are the people who deserve our support. I am one of those gals that damned the torpedoes and have experienced the joy and pain of doing so. I come here to help those coming after me, not to sort through all the reasons I shouldn't have transitioned.

...and lets be honest here, those that aren't transitioning are loaded with excellent reasons to not do so. Are they really TS? Does it matter?

I've had a few days away, and boy has this thread got hot and bothered.

No-one AFAIK is or has questioned who is and who is not TS, that is not a call anyone can make, except those who wanna be called it. What has been highlighted is the simple fact that all we ask is for people who are not (insert verb here), giving advice on (insert verb here) which they know nothing about. I have an opinion on any amount of topics, just as most of us do, what makes things different is, I will offer that opinion if asked for it, what I won't do is then try to state my opinion as fact if I know nothing about the topic. Just because it is my opinion does not make it fact.

Those who have taken whatever steps necessary offer their advice to HELP others who may wish to follow (god help them), we don't give a load of BS, just tell it like it is, how can you do that if you have not done or experienced it?

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Originally Posted by Adina

This would seem the simplest and least ambiguous approach.

Though I am curious. It seems to me that many TS are quite concerned about gaining employment and being acknowledged at work as a woman yet most of the women I know (at least in my profession) are more concerned about being acknowledged at work as a person, a person who is good at their job. Their gender is (or at least should be) irrelevant.

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Adina, I think it is important to realize that we are in dire need of simple and unambiguous.

Initially, any transitioning person suffers from a credibility deficit in the social ad professional context. And the only way to overcome this is to prepare well and to be good and better at your job than any man would have to be. Welcome to the world of women in our life and times. It is an interesting experience.

LeaP, you are calling me out for semantic confusion? I am not quite sure how you get this from what I have posted here. I do not believe I have in any way attempted any re definitions. I do have opinions, that may not always be agreed upon. Anyone who identifies as TS can only self identify. THEY feel internally they are a woman, and no one can ever really argue that. Back to the OP of the what is a transitioner.... I would think that it is a description of someone in the process, present tense. Until such time they have completed transition. I really do not understand how there can be any semantic confusion there.

I do sometimes see a post in here where someone will say they have transitioned and now awaiting SRS. IMO- they are still in the process. They have completed all steps but one, which is the physical alignment, to actually be a woman physically. IMO- that is a big one. To me, anyone in the process can say they are or have partially transitioned. Sooo, they can also say they are a partial transitoner, present tense anyway. It is just my opinion, it is how I see it, which may make it wrong for some, but that doesn't make it wrong for me. What I do not do, is try to make my opinion be put on anyone else. I do not declare what anyone else is, or was or will be.

My opinion- is that there are dual gendered people, non binary to either gender, and they can be both genders internally. A TS person in the process, not out at work or in whatever social circles- yet, but it is a process, they are internally female at all times. Still, they lead a life of both, regardless of how they feel internally. A CDer who identifies as dual gender.... lives their life as both. They also identify as both. A part of them is female, a part of them is male. For many who fit in this category, those parts do not completely shut off depending on what they are doing or how they are presenting. In a sense, they are internally feeling and identifying opposite of what they are physically. It does not take anything away from someone who is internally binary the opposite of their birth gender.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Yes, of course it does. But do you think it wise to tell a newbie GG posting in the Loved Ones section about her husband's apparent (by all her descriptions) CDing, that there is a chance he might be TS, or should you wait until you know more than just one post, or until her husband joins so you can have a chance to see where he (or she) is coming from. What percentage of the 6,000 members will end up transitioning - 200, 100, 50, 25? So do we tell everyone who comes in here that their husbands (or new CDers if they first ask questions about makeup, going out, etc) *might* be TS?

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I'm sorry, but I have an issue here.

I CD/TG, but I'm never going to transition. I don't need to, I don't *want* to.

Just because a partner has cross gendered feelings does not mean they are on a rail to transitioning.

Maybe I misunderstand, but your description does not seem to leave much room for TG or 'working it out' people.

- MM

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Originally Posted by mechamoose

Maybe I misunderstand, but your description does not seem to leave much room for TG or 'working it out' people.

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Right, but remember the context.

What we're talking about here is the TS forum and people like you, while bright and interesting, are not TS and not transitioning.

The whole crux of the argument is what we should be doing here on the TS board. I am one who says we transition here. TS people for the purpose of this forum are either IN transition or HAVE transitioned. Otherwise we have posts lamenting why they can't transition, or won't transition. Those posts are not helpful to those who ARE transitioning.

If we aren't going to drive the zeitgeist of the forum in this way, then why even have a TS forum? Some would say that there are TS people who are unable to transition and that may be, but again the experience of NOT transitioning is not really helpful to those that are transitioning.

Again, as previously stated, most of us have no idea *which* forum we are responding to, we only hit the 'New Posts' button.

I have no intention of intruding in the TS space. I just have no idea when I am doing it :/

- MM

Just FYI, when using the "new posts" page, the forum that contains the post is clearly visible on the right hand side of the post's row.

That's a lame excuse but knowing what forum you are posting in. Posting blindly in a thread is just you fill in the blank..

No, it isn't 'lame'.

Who the F am I? Look me up. Do you think I'm going to tread in a space I don't belong in on purpose?

- MM

Completely off topic but I'd just like to give MM a +1 on this, on mobile devices especially not completely obvious what part of the enchanted forest you're wandering in, been there, done that...IMHO 😉

This has run its course, thanks for all the input, but time to put this thread to bed.