What would you do when face with the ultimatum.

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Originally Posted by Stephanie-L

I partially agree with what Marcie has posted. Cding is a choice. However, the urge, often the very powerful urge, to CD is not a choice.

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Just as for example eating is a choice but the urge to eat is not a choice. But we do not have the capacity to choose not to eat without the consequence of starving to death (or for the pedantic who suggest a liquid diet of losing all our teeth at the least)

So is CDing like eating? After all the consequence on not CDing appears to be stress, anger, depression, anxiety and suicide.

Or is it like breathing, a reflex that one must conciously fight against to stop?

Hmm perhaps it is more like sleeping... again a reflex that you must conciously fight to supresss but if you go for long without sleep then you also get many of the same symptoms.

Whereas I've not heard of such symptoms from quitting a sport or other hobby. Are such symptoms also found to the same long-term extent and degree amongst SO's trying to accept a partners CDing?

And consider then that an SO who asks or demands a CD 'quit' is requesting or demanding they suffer long term struggle of will and risk their long-term mental health and perhaps even life for them.

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As others here have posted, I have received the ultimatum, and tried to stop for the sake of my marriage. Because of my continuing urges I sought counselling, not to stop CDing, but to deal with it in connection to my marriage.

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How has it been considered fairest that you try and quit rather than they try and accept? How was your suffering measured against your wife's? How was the risk to your health measured against any risks to hers coming from her attempting to accept your CDing?

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My therapist told me that for me to be truely happy about myself I would probably have to get a divorce. So here I sit, still married because I love my wife and am willing to be unhappy to stay in the marriage.

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Is she equally willing to be unhappy to stay in the marriage? Where is the reciprocal self-sacrifice on her part? If she instead tried to accept your cDing is that as comparable a suffering as your self-denial is?

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How long will it be before the balance tips and I decide that she is being more selfish than I am in her demand that I not CD? I don't know, but I suspect it will eventually happen.

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Surely that cannot be time dependant if your being honest in your appraisal? It either is unfair now or fair now. If its unfair now and you are merely waiting till your capacity to tolerate such unfairness wears out then surely trying to do something about the situation before it gets to that point would be fairer on everyone, especially as you would be more able to go slowly at a pace she can handle when you still have nore resiliance left at your disposal?

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So, one day I will be a happy CDer, but unhappily divorced, unless I can get her to accept, which I expect will make her unhappy too. Nothing worthwhile in life is easy......Stephanie

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Remaining repressed = long-term unhappiness. Being divorced may = long term unhappiness and will equal short term unhappiness. Her attempted acceptance will equal short term unhappiness but unless it results in divorce which is possible then what is the risk of it resulting in long-term unhappiness?

If your making a gamble its worth understanding the possibilities and trying to estimate the odds. And if she makes a choice which is a gamble, as any ultimatum is, is it done with all the requisite information? Did she understand the possible and probable long-term consequences of her demand upon your health? Was she willingly risking your life?

Was her decision informed or uninformed? Based on data or wishful thinking or worse on willfull ignorance?

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Originally Posted by JulieC

I
For my part, I strongly believe it is not a choice. My unscientific reasons for believing this:
* The vast majority of cross dressers have memories of the desire for or actions in cross dressing at an early age.
* I've yet to hear of any CDer who successfully repressed their desire to crossdress on a permanent basis. Over and over again we hear of CDers who purge, only to come back and crossdress again.
* I have heard of zillions of CDers whose lives were horribly affected due to crossdressing.
* One small study of brain structures in transexual people noted the structures of their brains did not match the gender of their outward appearance, but that of the opposite gender.

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Julie: This is one of the best things I have read on this I agree with you 100%

Life changes, people change, you have to be willing to give and take somewhat in every relationship. Anyone giving you an ultimatum may down the road do the same because you are too fat, too sick, or too depressed.

In each of the above scenarios each of us could have a breaking point or a limit - but that would be at the end of the rope. Not at the beginning. And Cding has very many levels and points at which compromise can be reached by mutual engagement.

If someone is not willing to meet you at least a quarter of the way, they may not be the person for you.

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Originally Posted by MarcieM

Ok, then I guess someone must have forced you to crossdress at gunpoint.

I never said anything about not having mental anguish, or it not being hard. I said anyone can stop if they make their mind up. Cd-ing is a choice.

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CDing is not just something that we do, it is who we are. I can change what I do, but how many more pieces of my soul am I expected to cut out so she does not have to deal with it? From now on, no more!

Bats, you are right about everything you said. It is terribly unfair of her to ask me to not CD when it hurts me so, and it is also unfair of her not to accept some unhappiness to keep the marriage going. You are also right in that it is really just a matter of when I decide I do not want to put up with this unfairness anymore. However, for a variety of reasons, kids, money, her health, my pride, etc, I am unwilling to dump our marriage in the trash right now. This will probably change in the future, heck, it changes day to day. There are times that if she threatens divorce I would say "Go for it, heres the phone book, find a lawyer", and others when I would walk through fire to keep the marriage together. She has just received some bad news from the doctor so we need to see where things go with that. When I heard the news, I felt bad for her and for me, I felt a bit trapped. I think I will start seeing my therapist again, even though I felt she was pushing divorce a bit hard, maybe she was right. Thanks for your comments, and for everyone here....Stephanie

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Originally Posted by Stephanie-L

Bats, you are right about everything you said. It is terribly unfair of her to ask me to not CD when it hurts me so, and it is also unfair of her not to accept some unhappiness to keep the marriage going. You are also right in that it is really just a matter of when I decide I do not want to put up with this unfairness anymore. However, for a variety of reasons, kids, money, her health, my pride, etc, I am unwilling to dump our marriage in the trash right now. This will probably change in the future, heck, it changes day to day. There are times that if she threatens divorce I would say "Go for it, heres the phone book, find a lawyer", and others when I would walk through fire to keep the marriage together. She has just received some bad news from the doctor so we need to see where things go with that. When I heard the news, I felt bad for her and for me, I felt a bit trapped. I think I will start seeing my therapist again, even though I felt she was pushing divorce a bit hard, maybe she was right. Thanks for your comments, and for everyone here....Stephanie

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ultimations seem to be about control. Control is about fear. Fear about the unknown, fear about one self, fear about change, just about fear.

Sometimes one person or both have to look at the fear and face it. Sometimes it needs to be one person's call.

Yes I was afraid of my husband being TG. I was more afraid of myself and who I was or was not. When I faced who I was and am I made the call.

That call was utterly painful. We were married 25 years. Seven children and a home. And I made the decison to end that marriage. I had tried for years to *control* this man. While I was, in many ways, out of control.

When I finally handed it over and realized I was never in control of who s/he was and is, I realized, so clearly, that he and I should not be married to each other. He and I should be free to be happy. With ourselves and in the world.

He could not be happy living MY life. I could not be happy thinking I was controling him and not being honest with who I was/am.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for him. And love. We were terifically good parents together. We somehow managed to pass along some good values and suggestions to our children. We worked very hard at this relationship one calls marriage. We worked very hard.

He stuck with *us* through the illnesses and the craziness. I tried to stick with the TG. And yes, we did love one another. And shit, we made some beautiful babies!

But it was time. S/he and I really do deserve happiness and love and peace.

Ultimatums can cost too much. Being honest can cost too. Honesty, true honesty, bring self respect.. Ultimatums certainly do not. With self respect, about who you are, a woman, man, TG/CD/TS. FtM, FtM, gay, bi, lesbian, black or white, comes happiness.

And each of us deserves to be happy.

Happy Valentine's Day.


Louise.

I have experienced both a supportive spouse, and the "don't ask-don't tell" relationship. In the later case when the Ultimatum came and I refused to give up my "alter-ego"/hobby I was outed to all my friends and family during a bitter and nasty divorce. I basically walked away from my home with my automobile, my waredrobe and what little self-respect I had left to muster. I lost friends I had for decades and have extended family members who I doubt I'll ever speak with again. After five years I have still not recovered financially or professionally nor do I yet have a home of my own again. These things have been difficult and painful. But I was true to myself, and my true friends and family, though small in number they may be have accepted Stacye as a part of me. Maybe a somewhat odd part, but still a part of me.

Now after all that, I find myself in a situation where I have no interest in dressing at all. I have not dressed for some 7 months now. Will I ever dress again? Probably. Could I stop for good? I don't know, I stopped drinking and using drugs 17 years ago and I've managed to make it through that one day at a time. So, I choose to take not dressing the same way-I have no desire or intention of dressing today. That's all I know-it's all I need to know. Whatever happens in the future will happen Insh'allah. I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Just one persons opinion.

marcie,(and all of my sisters on here)

if someone had put a gun to my head and forced me to cross dress, then yes i could stop with out a second thought. however, no one put a gun to my head and forced me into this, i was born this way. choosing to cross dress for me is like choosing to breathe, its something that is ingrained in me and many others. For you to come on here and make a statement like that hits close to home because its the very thing my now ex-wife said to me before she decided that a child molester was a better choice than me. Fortunately for me, i have found a woman who is completely understanding and supportive, many others haven't found such a person and have also heard similar comments from those they love and who supposedly loved them. If you haven't lived through what we have then there is no way you could understand why this is not a choice but rather a way of life for a majority of us. and before you say that i'm not a "strong enough" person to admit to a problem , or to try and kick a habit, keep in mind i have lived through the hell of war first hand and seen things that no human should and had very few mental side effects from the experience, which takes a strong character in anyone.

Typical controversial thread. Lots of hair-splitting going on. And you know, ol' Marla here hates split ends. But one of the topics of discussion going on here is all about whether we could stop, given the ultimatum.

So....could I stop? Sure, given the mental discipline. There have been people in recorded history that have stared at the sun long enough to blind themselves forever. I'll bet they weren't real happy about that, either. So could I quit? Yeah, and I'd not be real happy about it. In fact, I'd probably grow very resentful towards my wife over it. That is something I don't want in my marriage. I love my wife. I don't want to live the rest of my life without her, either. Any spouse throwing out such an ultimatum probably doesn't realize that to do so would destroy her marriage. I don't want that to happen to mine.

Like I said back when this thread was young, I've been doing this so long, I don't know how not to. So I'm not likely to stop.

It has never worked in my experience. purged in front of the SO to prove my commitment. I was hiding stuff in drawers by the next month. Carol

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Originally Posted by MarcieM

You can stop anything if you want to bad enough.
It depends on where your priorities lie.

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I guess you can stop breathing if you want to bad enough. It depends on where your priorities lie.

For most of us, cross-dressing is part of 'who' we are, not just something we choose to do.

I'm coming in a bit late on the thread but my view is simple....I have never given anyone an ultimatum nor have I ever given in to an ultimatum. If anything is to a point of an ultimatum then it's not worth the sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by msginaadoll

Crossdressing is not a disease or an illness it is part of who I am but not the whole part.

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That's what I meant. CDing is part of who we are. We can no more deny the existence of it (and be honest with ourselves) than we can deny the existence of our skin.

The outcome of this; you might be able to not crossdress for years at a time. But eventually, at some point, you will crossdress no matter how hard you fight it. My main reason for believing this aspect of it (as opposed to the biological aspect) is that I know of no CDer, or of any CDer who knows of any CDer, who has ever successfully stopped dressing and remained so.

For my own part, after my second to last purge (the last was to avoid discovery by my then just-beginning girlfriend now wife...wanted to tell her on my own terms, and did), I stopped dressing for about two years. I thought I was done with it. In fact, I was sure of it. Then one day I bought a pair of pantyhose, even though I was actively fighting it in my brain. When I put them on, the inner emotional explosion was astonishingly deep. Words fail me to describe the feelings I had. I knew from that moment on that I'd never again attempt to stop crossdressing.

Fast forward about 15 years...my wife did a 180 in support of my crossdressing. She had been somewhat supportive, then flipped (due in large part to my actions...pink fog stuff), and though no ultimatum was given a warning was sounded; if I didn't stop, she might lose attraction for me. So, I quietly packed up all my femme stuff. She was mad; thought I was purging. I told her I wasn't purging, but it was going out of her sight. In my own mind, I knew I'd continue crossdressing, but I would do so without her involved in any way. I was not going to cut off a portion of me again, and try to suppress crossdressing when I actively knew it would be harmful for me to do so. I just decided not to do so with her involved anymore. Six months later, after many conversations, things slowly turned back around again. My wife is now 100% supportive, and even more supportive than before and swears there will never be a 180 again.

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Originally Posted by msginaadoll

Crossdressing is not a disease or an illness it is part of who I am but not the whole part.

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"Thoughts are the shadows of feelings, always darker, emptier, and simpler. I don't care if they're fake or real, I just thank them for showing up at all. I have black periods. Who does not? But they are part of me; they are not a part of illness, but a part of my being. What am I saying? I have the courage to have them. Four o' clock in the morning. This sucks." - Alkaline Trio - Warbrain (First line courtesy of Nietzsche)

First off, I absolutely love that song, if you're into rock and don't know Alkaline Trio, look it up on YouTube. But that said, I highlighted the particularly relevant part, though really it all is relevant, because I think that's a place we'e all been.

I am blessed with a wonderful wife that accepts, understands and helps me. If given an ultimatum, I'm not sure what I would do especially after she accepted it. I think at the very least your spouse needs to give you a good explination as to why the ultimatum. Loyality to your spouse is the most important thing. Crossdresing doesn't cross that line IMO. My wife would certainly rather see me dressed as a women then going out with one.

Been there before, as I can see it now from a different light she used that as an excuse to end the marriage as she had found someone else to be with.
I had tried my best to quit but the stress of the fact that her mother lived with us was to much to bear.
They would go shopping on Saturday's or Sunday or both days and leave me at the house. At the time my wife had some older dresses that she didn't wear but I thought they looked just fine, I would go and buy my own undergarments, I had found some heels that my wife was going to throw out and they fit me fine. One thing lead to another and soon I had a nice collection of woman's attire and was able to keep it in complete view of my wife's things. As for makeup and perfume I would just use my wifes.
I had started to work a lot of overtime to try my best not to dressed as a woman but that didn't help either it only made things worse for my married life.
Sixteen hours plus driving time of 1-1/2 hours of working everyday, this only lead to my wife staying out later everyday. After about three months she agree to meet at a park where she gave me divorced papers as she had then for about a month as she thought I would do something to abuse her. Told her she really never knew me if she thought that would happen.
I moved out got a place of my own woman's attire of my own and have wonder every now and then how she is doing.
I still dress as a woman, have gained some weight that I need to remove and hope that will happen this year as I want to start exercising more, I would like to get the dress size I was a year after my divorce, which would be six dress sizes smaller than I am now.
Crossdressing is an important part of my life. just as for most women who don slacks, sweat shirt and/or flannel shirts are for them or women who are tom-boys.

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Originally Posted by LA CINDY LOVE

When your wife or girl friend tells you to stop dressing or I will leave you can feel your heart drop and to have the family tell you that if you do not stop then do not come around any more.......that has to be very painful.

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Those are three different situations you describe - a wife, a girlfriend, other family members. My response to each is different.

With the wife, it should never come to that point: If you kept it hidden from her and she discovered in the middle of the relationship, she has every right to be upset about discovering she married into something she was not prepared for. The burden is on you to either find a compromise you can both live with, try to give it up cold turkey because she is more important to you than the dressing, or say goodbye if the dressing is more important than the wife. If she knew going into the relationship and then decided later that she could not put up with it any more... that's going to be painful no matter what the outcome. In that case, she has to be the one to make the next move - either work out a compromise, or start packing. (in general, anyone who enters into a lifetime commitment believing they can change or "fix" any perceived flaws in the other is doomed to disappointment)

With a girlfriend who has not yet solidified the commitment, you have more flexibility because there are no ugly loose ends to deal with as you would have with a divorce. Both of you have to decide if your relationship is more important than either dressing or not dressing. I keep harping on compromise, because that's what works best for me in conflicts, but your mileage may vary.

Since I'm strictly in the closet (apart from the people who have to live with me - wife and kids) I can't really speak with any authority on the subject of outside relatives. I guess it would depend on how close I am to those people. More distant or rarely-seen relatives would probably get their wish and stop seeing me; for immediate family I'd certainly stop dressing *around them* if it makes them uncomfortable, but what I do in the privacy of my own home isn't their business. I suppose if, say, my mother or a brother or sister demanded that I give it up entirely or stop seeing them, I'd try to have a heart-to-heart talk about how it's a part of me that I can't make go away any more than I can stop breathing; if that's not good enough for them it would be a tearful farewell and a constant hope that they will eventually accept me for who I am.

ralph

Hey people - I faced that ultimatum now and quit CDing because deep down it's utrabad voodoo crap that does bad things to your life. But I kept my clothes - a gigantic colection of stuff... in hopes it will fit a beautiful woman my size 4 to 6 [should be easy to find]!

In response to your question "Why is it that they feel that it is so easy to stop?" - I would suggest it is quite simply because most women have no idea of how it feesl to be a transgendered man. There is also a tremendous amount of peer pressure for both men and women to not attempt to cross the gender divide. The extent of the concern that imen feel about this issue is indicated in the number of views of this and similar posts to the forum. While some women may be accepting, even then it may be just a begrudging acceptance with lots of terms and conditions. There is nothing wrong with optimism but it has to be tempered with realism.

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Originally Posted by KateSpade83

Hey people - I faced that ultimatum now and quit CDing because deep down it's utrabad voodoo crap that does bad things to your life. But I kept my clothes - a gigantic colection of stuff... in hopes it will fit a beautiful woman my size 4 to 6 [should be easy to find]!

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I'm curious to see where you will be five years from now.

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Originally Posted by JulieC

I'm curious to see where you will be five years from now.

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+1! Unfortunately, that's a very unrealistic statement, and Julie's right, you're pretty much doomed to come crashing back to the reality that you're just in denial of this. But good luck with that! :straightface:

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Originally Posted by Stacye Rose

In the later case when the Ultimatum came and I refused to give up my "alter-ego"/hobby I was outed to all my friends and family during a bitter and nasty divorce. I basically walked away from my home with my automobile, my waredrobe and what little self-respect I had left to muster. I lost friends I had for decades and have extended family members who I doubt I'll ever speak with again. After five years I have still not recovered financially or professionally nor do I yet have a home of my own again.

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{shudder} Oh Stacye, that's exactly the nightmare scenario that kept me awake at night when my marriage went through a rough spot. DW never once brought up the dressing, but over other issues (both of us are stubborn control freaks) she threatened divorce a few times. Losing custody is already a foregone conclusion for the father, but I just knew she would prove that I was a "pervert" and unfit to ever see my children again. And then it would be all out in the open, and there goes my life, my family, my job, my friends...

Fortunately we got over it with a lot of counseling at church and we're both the stronger for it, but it could have easily turned out for me as it did for you. I thank God every day that I didn't have to find out how much worse it could have been... I'm sure sorry to hear how hard it was for you.

ralph

I feel for you Sister ! I was faced with that in 1995 - I tried to honor my spouse's wishes - it lasted for several years - then it came back with an absolute vengence - we all know that we can not and will not ever quit crossdressing, no matter what we promise and no matter how many times we purge - keep this in mind - I didn't and now my spouse and I are on the verge of divorce
Your sister,
JoAnne Wheeler

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Originally Posted by Ralph

{shudder} Oh Stacye, that's exactly the nightmare scenario that kept me awake at night when my marriage went through a rough spot. DW never once brought up the dressing, but over other issues (both of us are stubborn control freaks) she threatened divorce a few times. Losing custody is already a foregone conclusion for the father, but I just knew she would prove that I was a "pervert" and unfit to ever see my children again. And then it would be all out in the open, and there goes my life, my family, my job, my friends...

Fortunately we got over it with a lot of counseling at church and we're both the stronger for it, but it could have easily turned out for me as it did for you. I thank God every day that I didn't have to find out how much worse it could have been... I'm sure sorry to hear how hard it was for you.

ralph

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Eeep! That's a terrible way for things to go down. Me? I'd sue for slander or defamation. I know that they typically have to show that something said was false, but I'm sure that you could argue that "pervert" is indeed a false accusation.

TSSSS...
someone give me an oldtomato and I would tell like this -
Keep aggrivating me about it and I will get really stupid with it, like dressing as John Goodman in drag!

If someone really wanted to leave my life cause of my dressing, I would tell them I will personally hold the door for them.

I am me, and one has 2 choices -
take it, or
leave it.