Why do we get hell for dressing up and gg"s don"t

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

So if you want to complain go do it to the rest of your bros

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I HAVE BEEN!!! LOL!!!

and yes, much of what you said is verbatim so called "male wisdom"

So here is the question. Why do WOMEN continue to go after those men? Why do women in general want to be with guys that think women are weaker.

Why do women in general PUT DOWN a guy wanting to have the same latitude when it comes to presentation, and yes possibly "step lower on the hierarchy"

Mellisa...Where have you gone out as a man in feminine clothing? I just gotta know.

I guess my mom just dressed me as all the other mothers dressed their kids. But, my mom wasn't like super controlling of what I wore. For a good portion of my childhood, I went to school wearing a shirt with shark on it (I even bathed in it), a cape, and a princess crown (from the game Pretty, Pretty Princess). I'm sure some mothers raised their eyebrows at my mom letting me where this to school, but she just let me make my own clothing decisions.

I eventually got made fun of and started dressing like a normal child. True story.

If I have a son, I'd dress him like all the other boys were getting dressed in that day and age. But, if he came home and decided to wear a bunny costume and a crown, I'd let him go for it. At some point, he'd make his own decisions on how to dress like I did.

Which, were mainly influenced by society. Idk what I would wear every day if I could wear ANYTHING that I wanted to wear...hmmmmm... I'd honestly probably wear vintage dresses every day, but I would get a lot of funny looks for that if I was just wearing a vintage dress to class or to McDonalds with my buds.

I agree that female fashion changed to gain equal standing with men, but I never think about this when I get dressed in the morning. I just kind of wear what I feel like wearing and what would be appropriate for the occasion.

Furthermore, I don't really think when seek out a$$holes. I think girls get with a guy that seems pretty legit and then 6 months later, you find out he's an a$$hole. At least that has been my experience. (Not with my Biff right now!!)

Shananigans,

In my life...The GG decided to go with a man that was married, with two kids from a previous marriage. In other words he cheated on two women he married already. Another girl went out with a man that was KNOWN to beat up his girlfriends...guess what. I don't think I need to go into those details, let's just say, not good.

Women, at least around here do seem to hook up with guys that already have a rep of being a lousy human being. When I worked at paratransit, I saw it all the time.

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I agree that female fashion changed to gain equal standing with men, but I never think about this when I get dressed in the morning. I just kind of wear what I feel like wearing and what would be appropriate for the occasion.

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This line has so much in it to work off of. Unfortunately I am just a bit too tired to do so. (boo), I will see if anyone can touch on what I want to say, if my mind were able to at this point. LOL

Pythos your going off in two completely different directions here. Is this about clothes or woman who have low self esteem? Anyway if I'm to believe my eyes when I read quite a lot of the post here in the CD section I would say there are just as many men who stay with lousy females as there are females who stay with lousy men. Lets face it MOST relationships don't end well which is why they end! We all debase ourselves at some point to secure the approval of someone else most of us learn our lesson in like 7 grade, some never do. As to why a lot of woman disapprove of CDing (at least at first) well there is the obvious he hid it for a long time and NOTHING pisses a woman off more than a man who hides shit from her. Then beyond that I think a lot of CDers have overt shame over their dressing, If he's ashamed of it why wouldn't SHE be. I think a lot of people are just comfortable with the gender binary and don't want to be put out by having to deal with someone who "breaks" those rules.

I have to agree with April.

I think there's a lot of people with self-esteem issues, but idk if this has anything to do with why women wear "men's clothes." When I put on my skinny jeans and some knee high stiletto boots...I'm not doing it because I'm insecure lol. Believe me, I do not suffer from low self-esteem in any shape, form, or fashion. I figured that would be blatantly obvious :)

The reason I dress like that is because it's what is "hot" now and when I wear it, I feel pretty hot.

Would I feel hot in man pants or a tux? Probably not. But, my boyfriend's brother was so obsessed with himself when he was dressed up in a suit. He felt totally hot. He looked pretty hot too. It's whatever floats your boat.

But, to say women who wear jeans that were originally worn by farmers back in the day are CDing and this has something to do with self-esteem is beyond my level of understanding.

What I was trying to address, and failed miserably, is the "male image" that is put upon us. Women for the most part would much more be with an abusive male that fits the "male image" than be with a non-abusive, and loving male that chooses to not dress acording to the gender norm.

Oddly enough though, and I have just recalled this, so please forgive...my dressing styles were not the reason for the breakups. It was though more about another male not knowing when to back off, and triggering my jealous side. My jealous side however was to realize I was not worth it. Not the girl having problems. When I saw the guys that would come in and wreck things they were true pieces of crap. One was an out womanizer. The GG however is what made my eyes open up and realize it is not I that is the issue, it is the girl.

Now, addressing women being able to without a thought put on an item of clothing that in the past was considered masculine wear only. What does this really say? Why is it you as a female can do that, but a guy that would prefer something other than jeans, slack, shorts, for below the waist, gets grief from society, and usually rejection from women? Case in point my mother. According to her I should wear nothing but jeans, and have close cropped hair. My niece however can wear what ever she likes (within decency), and have her hair how she wishes.

I pose it again.

For those CDers that think they can go out as a male in the clothing they like and not face trouble...then do it. April, I am not sure if you are TS or not, so not sure if you can do that. I KNOW that I would face all kinds of stupid bigotry if I went out of my house wearing the outfit I have on at this moment. A nice T-shirt, black pencil skirt, bare legs, and I would have to work out the footwear. I have no makeup, no wig, no jewlery. Now, if I were a female, I could totally get away with this, but I am not a female.

I honestly do not get why there seem to be blinders to this. Why GGs for the most part do not see the one sidedness of their stance when it comes to males gaining more latitude in how they dress. Just go onto the net and look up the reactions to marc Jacobs styles for men in skirts. Now look at the statements of some of the female fashionazis. They are so beyond sexist it is not funny.

I'll post some if you so desire.

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

But, to say women who wear jeans that were originally worn by farmers back in the day are CDing and this has something to do with self-esteem is beyond my level of understanding.

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I'm going to go out on a limb here but, (and any GG can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think women give the slightest thought to wearing pants, I don't think it has anything to do with self esteem, or even have anything to do with women's rights. I think they wear them because they think they look good, and our society says that women can wear pants. This in no way shape or form even relates to crossdressing.

About 40 years ago men that wore jeans were poor. Can we conclude from this logic, that today men that wear jeans WANT to be poor? What was the case in the past doesn't directly correlate to the present. Just because women used to not wear pants 50 years ago, does NOT mean they are crossdressing NOW when they wear pants.


As to the women going for "lousy" guys, well yes many of them do. Also many men go for "lousy" women. This COULD be related to self-esteem.

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

About 40 years ago men that wore jeans were poor. Can we conclude from this logic, that today men that wear jeans WANT to be poor? What was the case in the past doesn't directly correlate to the present. Just because women used to not wear pants 50 years ago, does NOT mean they are crossdressing NOW when they wear pants.

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I know. It really is an old and tired argument, that is simply IMO a rationalization for some CDs who wish to wear skirts. :p Not that there's anything wrong with wearing skirts, but just own it and wear them!

For those who say there is a double standard, think about this: both men and women in general dress in a manner that is much, much more casual nowadays. I remember in the 70s it was common for men to wear business suits and ties to work and this is no longer the case. Look at any pics of people in downtown settings during the 40s. Men wore hats, suits & ties, trench coats. Now they wear jeans, baseball caps & Tshirts. Women wore dresses & hats and now they were jeans & tops.

I was doing errands the other day, getting in and out of my car, carrying stuff, getting gas. It occurred to me that it was just so much easier doing this while wearing a pair of jeans and not having to worry about a dress getting caught in the car door, or getting a snag in hose, or having to carry stuff while wearing heels. Why would I want to get all dressed up just to go to the hardware store? So if men can adopt a dress-down style since the 40s, why can't the women as well? lol This doesn't mean that people have given up dressing altogether. Go to nice restaurants, or the opera or theater, and you'll see both men and women dressed nicely. In some monied or professional circles, people are more fashion conscious than the average person ... just not so much in every day, middle-of-the-road America. A lot of this has to do with finances as well, and the ease of caring for wash and wear garments.

Personally, I love looking at a man who is wearing a well-cut suit and who looks as if he takes pride in his appearance, rather than the beer-bellied, stained Tshirt, sneakered, baseball-cap clad men with jeans that are falling half-way down to their knees. But, it's just not something that is all that common place anymore and it's OK, I accept this. :p

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

I'm going to go out on a limb here but, (and any GG can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think women give the slightest thought to wearing pants, I don't think it has anything to do with self esteem, or even have anything to do with women's rights. I think they wear them because they think they look good, and our society says that women can wear pants. This in no way shape or form even relates to crossdressing.

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I feel like you're 100% correct. Also, I would fork over 200$ on a nice pair of jeans that I know is going to last me a long time. I think jeans are anything but the poor man's wear nowadays.

I mean, we could argue about the history of clothing throughout the ages, but it's just not applicable in the average person's decision making on what they are going to wear before they walk out the door.

Historically, ballerinas wore ballet shoes. (I guess they still do...but, whatever...) I wear ballet flats to class a lot with skinny jeans and a cute top. Does this mean I want to be a ballerina? No. One day, I picked up a magazine and they had ballet flats in the clothing section. Before I knew it, there were ballet flats in every shoe store. I told myself, "Well, jeez...I guess everyone is wearing ballet flats. I'd like to be one of the cool kids..." So, I got pair or 12. Ballet never once crossed my mind.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

Women for the most part would much more be with an abusive male that fits the "male image" than be with a non-abusive, and loving male that chooses to not dress acording to the gender norm.

Now, addressing women being able to without a thought put on an item of clothing that in the past was considered masculine wear only. What does this really say? Why is it you as a female can do that, but a guy that would prefer something other than jeans, slack, shorts, for below the waist, gets grief from society, and usually rejection from women?

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Pythos, I really disagree that women would rather be in an abusive relationship than with someone who is a gender bender. I think you were in a unique situation. I don't want to say this and sound mean...but, probably, 90% of women would rather not be with either an abusive SO or a gender bending SO. For obvious reasons, women don't seek out abusive relationships. It's a very complex matter as to why women stay in those relationships, but it's not because they WANT their SO to be abusive. I think most of the time they stay in it because they think they can CHANGE that person. At least I know this is what my mother thought.

As to why a lot of women don't want to date CDs...well, the concerns are echoed all over this forum.

The true fact of the matter is that now, jeans, slacks, suits, etc. are not considered masculine wear. They haven't been considered masculine for about 50-60 years?????

Now, women who do wear MEN'S clothing (as in they got it out of the MEN'S department) are not viewed favorably. If they are not FTM TS, then they are often called "bull dykes" or "butch." They are a subject of ridicule and are automatically considered lesbian because of their clothing choices.

Sound familiar?

If I were to wear men's clothing that were designed for a man, I would get this same label. It might not be so much the label of "crossdresser," so much as I must be a huge dyke muff diving lesbian.

I don't find those labels nice either. I also don't like associating women that dress in men's clothes as lesbians or bisexual, because people expect me to dress as such. This is the same qualms that the gay community has with CDs. Gay men try to emphasize that they love MEN and aren't interested in dressing in women's clothes or having sex with men dressed in women's clothes. These things do not define gay and crossdressing isn't a part of homosexuality. Thus, many gay bars have cut out drag night because they don't want to be associated with it.

I understand. I know that some lesbians dress in men's clothing, but this does not make a lesbian. Similarly, I know some CDs are gay....but, being a CD does not make a gay man.

However, these are the stereotypes that exist for BOTH SEXES.

Also, I have been further labeled since I am bi and do not dress masculine...I'm a "lipstick dyke." Can't I just be a homo and everyone shut up with how I dress? What does my attire have to do with who I f*ck? NOTHING!

So, if you think CDs are the only ones discriminated with how they dress, you are mistaken.

It's definitely not OK for women to go grab pants and shirts out of the men's department. They are called bull dykes and assumed lesbian even though they aren't face deep in anyone's thighs.

Still, that is what is assumed.

Here is what Urban Dictionary says:
bull-dike
An extremely masculine woman who could be mistaken for a man from a distance.
DAMN! I thought that bull-dike was a man!

Notice how there is nothing about who this person is f*cking in this sentence? Because the woman was wearing men's clothing and could be mistaken for man, she must be a huge lesbian. Because, obviously, all lesbians dress like this. :rolleyes:

There are a lot of good answers and opinions on this thread. All I can say is I went to Costco and Walmart yesterday and I saw a several women with unisex or mens sweatshirts and very manly haircuts on them. I'm sure they are not crossdressers but if they were crossdresing in male clothes and the world could tell.... I don't think anybody would giggle, snicker, say anything or even look once at them!

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Originally Posted by Pythos

Mellisa...Where have you gone out as a man in feminine clothing? I just gotta know.

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England. (20charrule)