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OK, I'm a year older than Ms. Jenner and there are others here who are older than me. I guess our time is already over and we just don't know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Further, I guess if you're 65 or over and you transition, your uniform should be Church Lady in a Size Ugly...
DeeAnn
Funny - on the first part you'd think CJ would be winning at least a little GG support on empathising with the effort that goes into looking the best you can... :thinking:Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
On the second part, it's hardly CJ's fault that practically the entire male world thinks that the most important part of being a woman is looks and looking sexy...? And because of that predisposition, a goodly proportion of the female world goes along with it too... :tongueout:
I'm not saying it's morally right - but it is the way the real world works... In any case, I think she'll tone it down eventually - but this is the big outing splash... I think before people make judgments they should try to put themselves in her position, with her background, environment and baggage, and then ask the question:
So how would I do this any differently if that were me...?
But that's tough to answer for all of us non-celebs because we really can't grasp the unreality of the unreal world she lives and moves in...
If she's still news beyond a Christmas special, I'll be pleasantly surprised...
Katey x
PS: And much better behaviour ladies - proud of you! :D
I fall into the same group and I like looking as good as I am able. Where does looking good leave off and looking sexy begin? I'm a tall, reasonably slim person, so I love tall slinky maxidresses. They may not be strictly age-appropriate, but I think I pull them off well. Sexy? Well, that is in the eye of the beholder.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Let's also consider Jenner's environment. She's been around the Kardashian clan for years and has acquired personal assistants for clothing, hair, and makeup. Clothing designers are filling her closets. What are these assistants going to suggest? "We have these new Dior dresses, but today we're going to dress you like an aging librarian?" Of course not! They are going to make her look like what she is, a good looking celebrity.
Reine, no matter who her target audience is (I believe it is all of us, from the Muggles who no not of what TG is all about to those who are well-entrenched in our community...yes, CD's too), it doesn't take away from Caitlyn's personal renaissance that is happening before our eyes, for better or for worse. I take no issue in how she presents herself. The VF cover was a splash and I wouldn't have expected her to look like Martha Stewart (not that there is anything wrong with looking like Martha Stewart, it's just that a VF debut is a hard place to imagine presenting as an iconic crafty gal presenting in crafty mode). And in keeping with the K clan and expectations of being part of a proverbial jet-set, not to mention what might be her mentality in wanting to look as trendy and well-put-together as possible, I don't expect things to change soon. She missed what many might call her prime "sexy" years, I cannot fault her for carrying that torch now, even if only for a while.
65 years of repression, I'm surprised she'd even be seen wearing capri's (but I'm glad she did!!!).
Did you bother to read and absorb the rest of my post? I am by no means suggesting that Caitlyn should be a Church Lady in Size Ugly. :straightface:Quote:
Originally Posted by flatlander_48
It's got nothing to do with morals, Katey. And yes, when I go out, I too wash my hair, wear clean clothes that fit well and that I think are becoming, put on earrings, use a bit of foundation and blush to even out my tone and look as healthy as I can. We absolutely shouldn't walk around as if we do not take pride in our appearance. But, there's a difference between the way that Kaitlyn has so far chosen to present, and how I describe it in my first sentence. Please tell me that you see this. lol. As to men being attracted to sexy women, yes of course they are. This is what propagates our species and it is wired into all of us. But, there is an age for everything, and not too many 65 year olds are out looking for mates in order to contribute to the propagation of the species. lol. If Kaitlyn was in her 30s, I'd tell her to go for it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Katey888
... and Eryn ... I know that CJ has been around the glam, I mentioned this in an earlier post. But, she herself has said she has an important message to deliver. And when people want to deliver important messages, they need to be aware of effective ways to do so, and they want to be believable. They don't want to put a lot of noise in the way that will distract the listeners. And in CJ's case, the "noise" is the obvious focus on her looks and appearance to the "I specifically want to look sexy in the type of clothes that appeal particularly to men" end of the spectrum, which opens the way for criticism toward her and potentially toward other TSs too. Do we really want people to think that the fundamental motive for MtF transition is to be hot and sexy?
Why is this so hard to understand for so many people here? +? +? +?
I understand what you are saying Reine but I think that it is understandable that she wants to try and mimic the 'Hollywood' glamour around her. I think she will settle down and dress more conservatively when she gets it out of her system.
Of course she does not have to. She is free to dress as she wishes.
The point about the way she dresses not being appropriate for delivering an important message is interesting. She is the message in a sense.
The message is that she is a woman so obviously how she looks and dresses is part of the message. If she did not look good she would become the object of even more derision. It would make her an easier target. The fact that she looks convincing will support her argument that she is a woman in the minds of a lot of people. To go to the extreme if she presented as a male and claimed she was a woman the general public would not take it seriously. I am not saying this is right but it is the way the world is. Ask anyone who does not pass how difficult life can be.
I stress again that I know this is not the way it should be but we live in a culture where appearance is very important. It may be wrong but it is the world we all live in and as a media celebrity she is living in an heightened version of it.
It's sarcasm, child, sarcasm. Can you read and absorb humor?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
The thing is, I think what you're asking is unrealistic. This person is an international celebrity and is on national TV and speaks before august bodies. You sound like you want her to dress like she's going to the mall. It's NOT going to happen. Personally I hope that she continues to look as well as she has. I see no point in trying to emulate a semi-ragamuffin just to keep the jaws from flapping in the trans community. And the thing is, I bet if she would look like you want, the other part of the trans community will start talking about how bad she looks.
Be aware that Ms. Jenner is from CelebrityLand, not SoccerMomVille.
DeeAnn
i have always believed that we win one person at a time... we have to let our humanity and good nature shine thru....we have to thrive and demonstrate it to loved ones and acquaintances so that when they are in that conversation about trannies or queens they are more willing to stand up and say we are all ok...
Having celebrities bring up the conversation is great for us because those of us that are out there talking can shine, we can thrive, we can turn people one by one...that is all going to happen in soccermom ville....
in fact in person we can easily point out that Caitlyn is not joan sixpack and allow ourselves to be the object of conversation, and move the ball forward
There is nothing Caitlyn can do except be herself...This is her, warts and all. Just like the rest of us...
i have seen a couple of pictures and moments with Caitlyn where i thought "ewwwww....way too much..." but ive seen pictures of lots of stars and thought the same thing....anty women can be sub
'"
Yes! Exactly!!! She is the message and people will either have their existing attitudes about the motives for transition either confirmed or dispelled based on her appearance.Quote:
Originally Posted by emma5410
OK ... I think I'm beginning to understand now. Somehow, you and perhaps others in this thread who defend her presentation believe that to look good must equal looking hot and sexy? And so a woman doesn't look good unless she wears the obvious trappings of sexiness (big boobs, low cut tops, tight clothes, showing leg or shoulder, big hair, elaborate eye makeup, etc)?Quote:
Originally Posted by emma5410
This is not the way that non-CDs see it, and what I am saying is that for people who have a hard time understanding that transitioning is not because TSs are gay and want to attract men, CJ's appearance thus far, combined with all her comments about how tough it is for a woman to "look good", are giving the wrong impression. Please believe me when I say that we have a lot more in our lives than concerns about appearing sexy. lol
Have you asked random people out there what they think of Caitlyn? I have and the answers were eye-opening. I admire CJ's efforts to communicate her message to the world but I hope she does tone it down eventually.
I think there's a slight amount of hypocrisy regarding trans women. If a genetic woman happens to like glamorous clothes, lots of makeup, etc. people will think it's just her style, and that perhaps she's a little shallow, but not that she's a bad representative for women. Trans women tend to face much more criticism if they do that, I think because they're perceived as caricaturing what it is to be a woman.
For myself, I like to look good and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It is tiresome to hear people who obsess over clothes and go on about how hard it is to be a woman because you take so long to get ready, etc. But at least for me, it's no worse to hear that from Caitlyn Jenner than it would be from any other woman. It's her choice and her style and if it makes her happy, then fine.
You're right, the first impression will be that this GG is shallow. Look around at all the women you pass by every day, all the women you work with. Based on their appearance, what you think is the focus of their lives?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianne S
No, I think that TSs who give the impression they focus on their looks, will also be viewed upon as transitioning for shallow reasons. The TSs that I know don't present like Caitlyn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianne S
It is more complicated I think. Most people still do not view us as real women no matter what we do and they judge us from that perceptive - how good are we at trying to be women. Not from the perspective that we are women. There are interesting standards for us. Like I have been accused of not trying hard enough to look better - I should dress nicer and wear more makeup. I have also been scolded for wearing high black boots with heals in the winter - omg now I am trying to be a drag queen! I've gone to far.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I was in a room with a bunch of cis women one time and another TS woman. The other TS woman made a comment about how us sisters need to stick together- The eyes rolled! How dare we think what it means to really be one of them and what it means to be a sister? I heard some comments later about what some of those women thought about what she said.
I notice a lot of my cis female friends will say things like "hey girl" or "you go girl" and similar comments to me, but to each other I rarely hear them saying the same things. Why?????? If I start making such comments often to people I have the feeling I would be viewed as trying harder to pretend I was a girl. Probably laying it on to much with my act.
In most cases, of course, their focus is not their looks nor on looking sexy. However, I have known and worked with women (not many, but a few) who really did dress glamorously most of the time and spend a lot of time on their looks. In some cases, they were shallow but in other cases, they were ordinary women who happened to enjoy that sort of thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I somehow doubt those TSs care. And we also shouldn't care; it's not really our business.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
TS start with a major disadvantage to GGs. They have male faces and bodies. You probably look good without a huge amount of effort. I do not. I have to try hard to pass. By the way why do you assume that looking good means trying to be sexy, having big boobs etc. You can look good without doing that.Quote:
OK ... I think I'm beginning to understand now. Somehow, you and perhaps others in this thread who defend her presentation believe that to look good must equal looking hot and sexy? And so a woman doesn't look good unless she wears the obvious trappings of sexiness (big boobs, low cut tops, tight clothes, showing leg or shoulder, big hair, elaborate eye makeup, etc)?
I have not seen many pictures of Caitlyn. Obviously the Vanity Fare cover was sexy but she was only doing what countless celebrities have done before. The other pictures have not been anything like that. However she dresses she is getting the message across and how she dresses is her business not yours. I think you are being very bitchy.
I work with a lot of women. Most of them wear more make up and all are far more 'glamorous' than me. But they are still taken seriously. They do not dress to be sexy they dress they way they want.
The focus of most TS lives is not looking sexy. We are too busy transitioning and trying to hold things together. The last thing I want to do is attract attention when I am out by looking 'sexy'. I must admit I am surprised by your comments. You obviously have some issues with the way other women dress. Why do you care? It is none of your business.
IMO, that's just human nature at work .Quote:
Originally Posted by Dianne S
If there are a few thousand on any given thing you have a much broader idea of whet it is even it there are some variances in it .
At the other end..... if there is only a small hand full of anything, you focus on the differences and there is much less to compare it to.
Al this makes it of the utmost importance that Cait act with maturity, etc, being ever mindful that the she is a role models and became someone the general public will judge other TS/TG and even CDs by.
She made herself a role model and a person to be judged as a TS/TG person so, she must play the part!
To everyone, my 21 year-old son just left. We had lunch. He was checking his fb page and showed me a pic of Caitlyn. It was a picture of Bruce on the Wheaties box, side by side with a pic of Caitlyn (not the most flattering pic) on a box of Froot Loops. My son showed it to me because he thought it was funny.
This is a boy that I raised to be open-minded and accepting. And he generally is ... he is friends with everyone no matter their sexual orientation, we had had a conversation when Leelah Alcorn died and he felt that Leelah's parents should have helped her to transition. So we started a conversation about Caitlyn and I told him that CJ shouldn't be laughed at ... she wants to bring the plight of TSs to the public eye, she wants people to know there are individuals who suffer a great deal because large chunks of people in our society discriminate against TSs and transition. My son then told me he cannot take CJ seriously because of his (my son used "his") association with the K-clan and also if CJ wanted to help, "he" wouldn't have a reality show making lots of money off of it like Keeping Up With the Kardashians.
I'm sharing this with all of you so you will know how a lot of people really think. I do not think my son's opinions are isolated and most other people I spoke to had similar attitudes. This is not discrimination against TSs. This is discriminating against Caitlyn's current image.
So my point all along this forum discussion has been, if Caitlyn wants to reach the people who do discriminate against TSs (the people who do not understand the motives for transition), then she needs do distance herself from the K-clan, which necessarily means, stop dressing or presenting like them. The more she looks like she belongs in the K-camp, the harder it will be for people to take her seriously. If Caitlyn wants to reach young TSs and be a role model for them, she is not showing them the right way to dress if these TSs want to be taken seriously as well. I do want to add that she is being a positive role model for coming out to begin with but even so, CJ has so many advantages (money, fame, and the Hollywood bubble) that average young TSs do not have, that it is difficult to place her on the same page as them.
But, if people in this forum do not want to see this, that's OK.
I do. I see my TS friends as women. But, because of my exposure to my SO, the members of the support group that I know, this forum, etc, I understand more than a person who is not connected to this community.Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
I agree with you that TSs are examined under a harsh light. You mention criticism over wearing high boots, or not enough makeup. Everyone will have a different standard according to their personal taste. But, GGs have opinions about other GGs all the time too (even if they keep their opinions to themselves). For example, I have a friend who only wears blacks and grays. I love her dearly, but the colors she chooses make her look wan and tired, older than her years. If I should see a woman my age with mini skirts, a deep décolleté and lots of smokey eye makeup, of course I won't say anything to her but I will think that she is trying way too hard to look young and she would do herself a favor if she hid the cellulose, hid the sun damage on her chest, and toned down the makeup.Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
This is why I do not tell my TS friends, "you go girl", "you look grrrrreat", or "OMG you look better or have nicer legs than me". You are correct Arbon, we don't say these things to other GGs, and so singling out TSs or CDs to say them to is patronizing. I think the GGs who say this really mean, "I admire you for what you are doing". I do admire some things that people (both men and women) either wear or use in their homes and I compliment them on these things, but to tell a friend, "you go girl" is a bit much.Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
That was exactly my point!! LOL. You said that CJ dresses the way she does to look good, and so I asked you if you thought it was necessary to wear these things if we want to look good. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by emma5410
i agree with a lot of what you are saying Reine...i think there is very little to be done about it, and i don't think the anecdote about your son translates to any big meta trend.
reaching people is hard...transsexuality is very difficult to understand....what ts people want is hard to get... many of us would prefer more dress down casual days for caitlyn...
nobody can be all things to all people.... caitlyn can't have it every way...her platform IS the k-clan... its true that its hard to take people in that circle seriously sometimes but thats the bargain...perhaps caitlyn can pull away...the ratings were so so, which means this can likely fade anyway.
i have two daughters ..they have their buddies and i see a lot of them...
in their circle they don't laugh at us...they are anti racist, anti phobic...etc...they and their friends are very serious about it...they stop being friends over this stuff
rightly or wrongly they would be in your son's face if he made that joke to them!!!! or joked about race or gender or anything that hurt others
however
..i don't think either your son or my kids represent anything but themselves and perhaps their friends...
There are people on this forum who tell us that if we go to a mall wearing a dress that real women don't do that. I find it sad that looking nice is against the rules for some of us. CJ can wear whatever she wants to. Of course, it will also help sell her television programme. No matter how much of a public figure she is, she is still a private citizen. She doesn't owe anybody anything and if anybody thinks she's doing it wrong then they can become the next figurehead and show us the light.
That is exactly the type of thing I was/am afraid of given the media circus that surrounds Cait with her full approval and encouragement .Quote:
To everyone, my 21 year-old son just left. We had lunch. He was checking his fb page and showed me a pic of Caitlyn. It was a picture of Bruce on the Wheaties box, side by side with a pic of Caitlyn (not the most flattering pic) on a box of Froot Loops. My son showed it to me because he thought it was funny.................
I know and I agree. CJ will need time to learn and then she will adjust her presentation accordingly. But, I hope that people in the forum will understand why I am saying that it will be better all around when she does. I want people to get past how she presents and to pay attention to what she has to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
But that's just it, my son does not tell racial or gender jokes. He simply doesn't take CJ seriously because of the glam, the reality shows, and the association with the Kardashians, whom he has no respect for. And the eye-opener for me was, most people I spoke to (several friends and acquaintances, a few people at work, a hairdresser) expressed similar sentiments as my son. I didn't take it they were discriminating against TSs particularly ... it was directed toward CJ's presentation choices and her decision to continue with reality shows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele
I think you're going way off piste now, Reine... It's bad enough when we have our own community fashion police but I'm staggered you feel you're in an authoritative position to say this:
"Better all round" for whom? You're just completely missing the context of her existence - as Kaitlyn has already said. the Kardashian's are her platform and family and her life is Hollywood. Of course 65-year old Mrs Jorgensen from Fargo doesn't look like CJ when she goes to buy chicken wire from the hardware store in her pickup truck (that's a deliberately exaggerated stereotype, btw - but it's in good company!) - CJ's life was, is, and will likely remain in, Hollywood... So when you said this earlier:Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
You make it sound like anyone who wants to be part of 'Celebrity' life has a choice...:confused: Like these ladies of Hollywood around CJ's age (or older):Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
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Are they glam and sexy? Are they trying to attract a mate? Trying too hard to look young? :Pfft:
Yeah - they don't look quite like this when they're shopping Rodeo Drive - but they look like this at awards ceremonies, and a heck of a lot different to Mrs Jorgensen when they are shopping because it is part of who they are. And yes, they'll tone down the image when they're giving a serious message for charity, good causes, whatever - but they'll still be glamorous and God bless them for being prepared to take glamour into older age rather than lapsing into utilitarianism non-fashions. :hmph:
Part of being taken seriously as celeb IS about how you present, how you look, and fitting with the media's expectations of that. I'm sure she will change over time, but that will take quite a while because I think she's trying to achieve acceptance on her terms and those that best fit with her environment - I expect it will take years before she's accepted for herself - something that most other TS's share, I imagine...
Not an 'ordinary' TS or CD by any means - but then she never could be...
For all of those who have issues with CJ's presentation - Get over it. Better or worse, it's Hollywood.
Katey x
Well, that's your son's problem, I think, not CJ's. Paparazzi culture in general is disgusting, so anyone famous who transitions is in a no-win situation, IMO. And I think CJ is handling it quite well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I would like to echo, amplify, Diane's point just above. Each of us, not just Reine's son, need to challenge ourselves to put ourselves into the other's world when we make our inevitable judgments about them. Even the attempt to make that transposition, in the case of Caitlyn, is futile for most of us. We, for the most part, cannot even begin to understand all that we would need to to make a wise judgement.
Caitlyn has her own needs. Her first duties are to herself, followed closely with those to her family. Anything she is willing and able to do for us within those parameters is icing on the cake. Be gracious and say "Thank you."
Stephanie
I see a bigger theme in Reine's critiques of CJ. It's the problem of stereotypes. Like it or not people will make sweeping generalizations based on a few examples, especially when those examples are OTT and highlighted by mass media. People do this in part out of intellectual laziness, but mostly because they just don't have a deep interest in things outside their normal existence. Reine has clearly stated her concern that the serious message CJ is trying to convey is being obscured by her overly glamorous presentation and that her presentation and behaviors play to stereotypes about women that Reine feels are unhelpful. These are important concerns and I, for one, support her for bringing them up.
I do think, though, that most of the flack CJ, is getting from folks outside the TG community is guilt by association with the Kardashians. I doubt few of them actually bothered to watch the first episode of her show. (For the record I haven't yet either. Cut the cable cord years ago.) They are just not paying close enough attention to even hear the message she's trying to tell. From that perspective I don't think it would make a big difference if she did tone down her appearance. Given that the practical effect would be negligible, I think she should dress in whatever way makes her feel good about herself. I suspect she has been in deep pink fog since transitioning, something exasperated by the VF shoot, TV show and the ESPYs. It's going to take her time to find her way out.
Bridget
Maybe my last sentence above was poorly written? It means that I hope the people who participate in this thread and who do not believe I should have the opinion that it would be best if CJ toned it down, will understand my motives for saying what I say. I developed this opinion because I have spoken to a number of people who have no association with the TG community or CDs/TGs/TSs, and I was surprised at their negative reactions to Caitlyn, to the point where they are not listening to what she has to say. And it is my wish that these people and all others who feel the same way might be able to see Caitlyn for who she is, which is a woman who struggled to be her authentic self and not some person who is doing this for money or for other more shallow reasons, so they can hear the message that CJ delivers and believe it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katey888
Katey ... the difference between the pics of the stars you show and CJ is, these stars are not telling the world "I am a woman who, due to society's negative attitudes about TSs and transition, lived unhappily in a male body all my life and now finally at age 65 I can be my authentic self". They are GGs who have always been GGs and who went to a gala. If they were coming out for the first time, I bet they would carefully choose their presentation at least for the first few months.
----
If anyone here finds this offensive or feels that I am being a fashion police or that I am somehow against the community, then sorry but I don't know what else to say. :p. Honestly, I'm getting the impression that many of you are putting Caitlyn on a pedestal to the point where you want to be in denial about how she is being received by average people.
----
Finally, last night I watched "I am Cait" and saw that Caitlyn herself is aware of what I am saying. When her mother was coming over to meet her, Caitlyn told her assistant to pick out an outfit that is (I cannot remember the exact words) not too femmy. And at the end of the show when Caitlyn went to meet the family and friends of a young 14 yr-old TS who had killed herself, she wore a simple black turtleneck top with a pair of black pants. The focus was not on boob, leg, etc.
... Dianne S, maybe you skimmed by some of what I posted, but it is not just my son (a person who does not discriminate against TSs) who thought the pic on fb captured Caitlyn's reality. Tons of other people do too, which proves that Caitlyn's message is NOT getting across to the muggles. Bruce was a pro at motivational speaking and a part of this job is knowing the best way to present in order to deliver a specific message. I've been hoping that Caitlyn will move beyond her need to present a certain way and tone it down a bit, and it looks as though on the show I saw last night, she is beginning to.