When did GG start becoming an offensive term ?

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Oh wow. Just wow. So...let's assume you make a racist comment in a chat area. Someone calls you out on it. You say "Hey, it's my perspective...tolerate it." And that makes it ok since after all you explained your rude comment was your perspective and not really meant as hurtful.

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-First off, I guess I should have clarified that I wouldn't let intentional hate speech fly without swatting at it, and what could count as hate speech via ignorance I would correct their ignorance with facts supported by data if need be [and i have mutliple times gone out of my way to procure data for such things, so it's not a bluff].
-Second, there are different perspectives and hate speech. Not all perspectives are hate speech, but all hate speech are perspectives. Even if someone doesn't like the perspective does not put it in the hate speech section. I should have clarified that I would want people to tolerate a person's perspective, but not if it is ground in hate speech.
-Last?, rude comments come from perspective, but only some are again grounded in hate speech/prejudice/racism. I think.. my EDIT was edited because I talked about Mexico for example. If I am correct, I did not find that comment's assumption to be prejudice. It was a second straightforward example to reinforce that there can be two perspectives and how neither is superior to the other and understanding/toleration/respect are keys to a more diverse commenting section.
Edit
I just wanted to share someone, who I don't know (because its from a site that takes people's perspectives on subjects), who was raised racist and """"escaped""" (not really if you read to the end of the article) from it. http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-weird-...-to-be-racist/

Paula
Glad you made those points. I have gotten to the point I hate getting into these terms/labels threads in on and off line talk. And to the idea that TG/TS are not real woman somehow. Have had some places the use of RG (Real Girl), as I guess TG/TS are Fake Girls.

The use of Genetic is also a wrong assumption. Few people have Genetic testing. It does not take into account Intersex genetics. There are XY Female at Birth or would they be Genetic Males.
Also I am not a girl, even though sometimes in casual conversation among other women friends we will say that.
Interesting the the official definitions/abbreviations we use GG (Genetic Girl) but GM for (Genetic Male), the list has added GF as either Girl Friend or Genetic Female.
We do have FAB (Female at Birth) but no MAB (Male at Birth).

Reine
It would not please many men to be called boys.

I will usually call casual groups as Gals (women) or Guys (men).

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Originally Posted by Alexa CD

Marcelle name calling and disparaging comments among children is not something that anyone encourages, kids are not really taught to do this by parents. As far as I can see things have been set up in a way that actually teaches children to be respectful, rather than disrespectful.

However children need to learn how to take criticism and understand social dynamics, but also they need to learn how to be resilient and not allow what others think or say affect them negatively, hopefully they will develop strong characteristics of individuality and self worth on their own. These are important life skills and if one is to be successful and survive one needs to know how to stand up for themselves and of course others. Children need to eventually understand that other people think differently and have different opinions, and that the world isn't so idealistic that everyone has nice things to say and good intentions. People need thick skins, successful societies and successful people don't have thin skin, the thin skin comes along after the hard work is done and it can lead to downfall. Also kids will be kids, they'll learn bad words, they'll learn to lie, to notice differences among the people around them, they'll know shame and ridicule, they'll influence and be influenced.

I suppose you think telling people not to name call and bully will prevent suicide, perhaps we should tell people not to rape or commit violent crime.

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Hmm . . . I agree in principle that some parents don’t encourage their kids to be intolerant about difference but to be respectful. However the cold reality of social learning theory is that children will learn intolerance through their role models in early childhood (i.e., parents and siblings). So if you believe that children are not being taught by their parents, that is naïve in thinking. Heck all you have to do is go to a hockey game and listen to parents goading their children on to hit so and so or stop being a wuss and get in their an fight like a man while denigrating other children for being weak players . . . nope parents aren't teaching their children intolerant behavior :facepalm:

You are correct in that children need to learn to take criticism and understand social dynamics but that does not equate to taking it on the chin when someone bullies them because they are different. That is not criticism but intolerance, hate and just plain mean spirited and should not be tolerated by anyone. Would you like someone coming to your workplace and making fun of you to the point where you are unable to continue working? Constructive criticism is something which needs to be understood and learned to accept but hate, name calling and bullying no. When did we become a society where people's bad behavior is to be tolerated less we upset their sensibilities or their perceived right to do what they wish at the expense of others?

Teaching children to have a strong sense of self is a good thing . . . again we agree. But a sense of self, being proud of your differences doesn’t mean letting people make fun of you without calling them out. So by your logic if I have a teen who is gay and proud of that fact and a group of homophobes are making her/his life at school a living nightmare my advice as a parent is . . . just suck it up and be proud of who you are even if it is causing you great emotional distress? Not likely. Fundamental respect of other’s differences should not be the exception but the rule. Before you go all “everybody has their right to their opinion” on me, having an opinion (I don’t like x because they are y) is one thing . . . acting on it and making disparaging, rude and hurtful remarks is another. That is not freedom of speech it is prejudice . . . plain and simple.

Some kids have thick skin and will take it in stride and others not so much. For those who don’t for whatever reason . . . yes the bullying, harassment and name call may be just enough to push them over the edge so while bullying and name calling may not be the only cause for suicide it definitely can be a contributing factor and that is proven by the statistics. Look you may be a thick skinned, had a great life, take it on the chin person but not everyone lives your life so just because things are great for you doesn't mean there aren't young adults out there suffering.

Marcelle

The thing about freedom and rights is that its all relative. Some people would rather they had the freedom to say whatever they wished without others speaking up when they are offended. Then they mock and ridicule when someone does speak up, which is often times more offensive language, as well as basically seeking to deny the other person the right to voice their opinions about being offended. The issue is also often compounded by the one who is offended asking "How can you say that?" to which too often the response is "We have freedom of speech in this country." or "It's just my opinion." Which while it does answer one interpretation of the question, isn't really what's being asked. The how in this case is asking what has brought you to have this viewpoint about others that you have. I will grant that its a poorly formed question and I'm guilty of using it many times myself. Freedom of speech in our constitution only protects us from the government and not society. So yes, people can say whatever they wish, and I would not want to impose censorship on them, but on the flip side of that, people need to understand that society will and should hold them accountable for what they say. Some people talk about returning this country to a mythical time when everything was better and people were good and decent to each other and people didn't get so offended over every little thing, maybe start with yourself, if you offend someone, sincerely apologize, and see where that goes. Seems like the decent thing to do.

Paula Q,
I'm not just talking about gender orientation here and what I've chosen to do in regards to that doesn't make what I've said any less true... and where do I even begin with what you've written. First of all you are obviously making assumptions about me, you're basically saying I somehow lack problems because I'm not out?
I am conscious but if I cared, as I have done in the past, about what some people think or even say I wouldn't look or dress the way I do now. It's been a problem for me, and in many ways it still is but I refuse to allow it to personally affect me anymore. I also understand and accept that it's problematic for others, of course I do, I've been through my own hard times.

What you've put in "2." is actually the type of stuff I've been talking about here. Other people have different opinions and that angers you, different opinions being water, your armor being cardboard, just accept it, they think differently. Don't let other peoples opinions upset you, you can't allow what they think to define you, or make you feel less. If they want only genetic females to reply then so be it. If some prefer a relationship with a genetic female over a trans woman then that's their choice and they have every right to it, for whatever reason. Try not to overthink stuff and allow it to get to you, don't think about what you aren't but what you are.

Let cisgender people do and think whatever they like, referring to them as different and personally recognising so called privilege doesn't make it go away, just try to continue on. I think that's the true, narrow road to normalcy.

Whoosh...

Attachment 264034

Seriously, point missed.

Zooey, is this directed at me...


And Marcelle, I'll reply later, I don't have time.

hard to not take something to heart when it actually effects how your life is lived.

"Water off a duck's back" is great until you hold that duck under for a long time. Being told you'll never be something when you know you are in almost every aspect tends to make you feel that you are less than you really are. Yeah, we get it.

I am noticing something here, I think many have also. The lines are starting to form.

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Originally Posted by Alexa CD

Zooey, is this directed at me...

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Yes, it is.

I thought about what to say back to you Zooey but why even bother.

I fundamentally agree with those that are for the most part somehow against what I'm saying. I feel like I'm being read wrong here, how else can I explain it. We're two sides of the same whole. There are no lines Lorileah it's a circle. You know I've talked to a lot of young trans people and crossdressers and I have actually been told numerous times to steer clear of the older people within this so called community and I think now I realise why.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

"Water off a duck's back" is great until you hold that duck under for a long time.

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Its more like waterboarding sometimes....

Alexa, I think a key thing you are missing from Zooey's posts is that we are woman. Anything that marginalizes that is important because it then defines how we will be discriminated against. We can't just ignore it. This is who we are and the cis world is a little too big to be ignored. So when someone draws a line between us and "real" women, it tried to tell us we are less than a woman. It is something we are trying to change by being out and visible, but it will take a while. In the meantime, we will endure the pain, whether we like it or not. We would rather change the thought processes now and it would be nice if others in the "umbrella" would get it and be part of the beginning of the change.

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Originally Posted by Alexa CD

I thought about what to say back to you Zooey but why even bother.

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So, to clarify, I think you missed the point I believe Paula was trying to make.

I can assure you that neither she, nor I, nor Sue, nor a lot of other women here are walking around angry every day.

I won't speak for them, but what I am is frustrated. I'm frustrated by a number of things. I am frustrated about being marginalized, sometimes purposefully and sometimes unconsciously, by a group of people who at the same time insist that we are the same. I am frustrated by a group of men who claim some deeper insight into femininity and womanhood, yet balk at any suggestion by actual women that some of the things they're saying may be disrespectful or inappropriate in ways they aren't aware of. I am especially frustrated recently by men who like to play dress up as women posting things about how men are being "sidelined" in society now (aka male-rights activist BS).

Particular to your post, I also find it frustrating when people assume somebody should be able to deal with a class of problem, when they themselves have never really been confronted by that problem. It's like somebody who's never suffered depression telling a depressed person to "just cheer up and be happy". As Paula said, we deal with this marginalization every day, on one level or another (sometimes small, sometimes big). We get quite enough of it out there. For somebody who spends their life in the closet to tell us that we should "just ignore it" is, well, rather frustrating.

That is the point you missed.

Nobody is saying you don't have problems. We're saying that the ways in which you (and many others here) attempt to devalue our problems, often devaluing our identities in the process, is disrespectful.

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Originally Posted by Zooey

So, to clarify, I think you missed the point I believe Paula was trying to make.

I can assure you that neither she, nor I, nor Sue, nor a lot of other women here are walking around angry every day.

I won't speak for them, but what I am is frustrated. I'm frustrated by a number of things. I am frustrated about being marginalized, sometimes purposefully and sometimes unconsciously, by a group of people who at the same time insist that we are the same. I am frustrated by a group of men who claim some deeper insight into femininity and womanhood, yet balk at any suggestion by actual women that some of the things they're saying may be disrespectful or inappropriate in ways they aren't aware of. I am especially frustrated recently by men who like to play dress up as women

[ brevity snip ]

Nobody is saying you don't have problems. We're saying that the ways in which you (and many others here) attempt to devalue our problems, often devaluing our identities in the process, is disrespectful.

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the bolded part isn't demeaning or disrespectful....

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Originally Posted by Alexa CD

What you've put in "2." is actually the type of stuff I've been talking about here. Other people have different opinions and that angers you, different opinions being water, your armor being cardboard, just accept it, they think differently. Don't let other peoples opinions upset you, you can't allow what they think to define you, or make you feel less. If they want only genetic females to reply then so be it. If some prefer a relationship with a genetic female over a trans woman then that's their choice and they have every right to it, for whatever reason. Try not to overthink stuff and allow it to get to you, don't think about what you aren't but what you are.

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Honey, I do accept it. And I'm telling you, saying "don't let other people's opinions upset you" is really damned easy when you DON'T have to face the kinds of consequences those of us who transition have to face. For example, if the person in question is a doctor whose opinion is that he should REFUSE to treat you because you are transgender, and you really need medical care, how does one let that roll off their back? Especially when you call about 30 local doctors, and had them all go "nope, don't do trans people." I've done this exercise before - I'm not sure what feelings I ought to have other than being upset.

Or hey, how about watching your friend get followed around various stores *constantly* by people who are taking her picture, posting it on Snap chat or Instagram "look at the funny lookin tranny!", and verbally harassing them?

Or - I know - I can surely ignore the guy that tried to rape me because I'm trans - hey, sticks and stones, right? Or the gang of men who tried to attack one of my friends?

Oooh, oooh - I know - how about any of my friends who had to deal with the opinion of their boss, which was, "oh, you're transgender - well, that really isn't going to work out well here. You're fired." I guess I should'a just told them "suck it up, buttercup", as they discovered that they were never going to work in their careers again.

I'm not saying you lack problems. I'm saying you have absolutely no right, NONE, to tell me how to react to mine because you have no idea what they are. You've never experienced things like the stuff I've listed have you? If you've had these experiences because you are transgender, then I apologize. If not, I'll expect one from you. Everyone has problems. And I can believe being closeted is a problem for you. I know what that can be like - I hated it. It's horrible. And if you really need to transition, it can be life threatening. So if you are going through that, PM me. That's another example, btw - contemplating or attempting suicide (I attempted it) because it seems like a better option than dealing with the opinions of others.

What I'm trying to convey to you is that I get a normal woman's ration of problems, plus a bunch of other ones that are unique to being trans. And hey - I'm one of the lucky ones.

Oh, I forgot to mention the opinion "you don't belong in this restroom." Always a fun one to try to get over.

So if I've made assumptions about you, feel free to correct me. Otherwise, I'm assuming you don't have the foggiest freaking clue what you are talking about, or, more likely, you know exactly what I'm talking about, it terrifies you, and you talk a tough game while whistling past the graveyard, as it were.

So have at it cowgirl, prove me wrong.

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Originally Posted by Alexa CD

I think that's the true, narrow road to normalcy.

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I'd rather drink poison than be "normal" like the people I've described.

<sub>PS. How about the opinion of the cop you called for help who decides that you are a sex worker, and arrests you instead. Or, heh, this one is really good - worrying about the opinion of the folks who run the psychiatric facility you are considering calling for your suicidal transgender friend. Are they going to make your friend better, or will they misgender your friends and otherwise abuse them so that they are WAY MORE SUICIDAL upon release. (Which you had to secure via threatening legal action - added bonus fun opinion to try to ignore!) I can go on and on and on about this stuff honey, it's happened to me, or people I know.

Don't even get me started on what people who are trans and on the autism spectrum go through. Or people who are trans and handicapped.</sub>