Yes, it's just that easy.

Glamourgirl,

My spouse hid the secret that she was TS out of deep shame and lifelong repression beginning in very early childhood. She hid it so well that she was suffering an emotional death from it. She didn't tell me until almost 5 years into the marriage. I certainly don't consider her a liar; she was just trying to survive.

So many people suffer for so many years so their partner can be spared pain or inconvenience. It's not a load lightly shared, and usually shared with disastrous results. If you put someone between a rock and a hard place what do you expect? Have you ever used a pressure cooker?

Knowing what it's like from talking to so many people and seeing the changes in my own spouse, I do consider an effort to spare a spouse for years selfless, not selfish. Have you ever ignored a toothache hoping and praying it would go away? It usually only gets worse over time until you have to do something about it.

Life is short, love is rare, and compassion is precious. I hope you can really talk to your partner and understand his journey to this point better. Be kind and repay 7 years of silent suffering by really working out something that you both can truly live with. Perhaps you should check out the books by Helen Boyd?

Good luck to your family. I hope you can work through this.

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Originally Posted by Glamourgirl GG

My husband always used to tell me he could stop, that myself and our children were more important...yet he still continued to dress thinking I didn't know. That told me that he was more imporant than myself or our children. I told him the other day CD'ing is a selfish act, unless I am fully involved then many times I see no room for myself in his hobby. By fully involved, I mean that just like his male self, that I am involved in this part of his life. I admit it, and no offense to my husband who I am sure is reading this post, but I do feel very disposable when it comes to his Cd'ing.

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I'm puzzled---why do you have to be involved in this part of his life? If you are into it---approve of it, find it is a turn on or whatever then fine---but if you really don't like his dressing, why would you want to share it? Spouses have all kinds of activities, even passions, that their SOs don't necessirily share, but don't have a problem with the spouse doing as long as he still has sufficient time for them----the fact of the matter is that your husband is a crossdresser and even if he could purge and "stop" it he would always have the repressed desire to dress with the resulting unhappiness. I'm not being critical here--many GGs don't like or even tolerate their SOs dressing so I can understand where you are coming from. But if you don't really like it why would you want to "share" it? If your husband was passionate about golf and you hated the sport would you still want to play golf with him? Like I said I don't mean to be either critical or offensive, I'm merely puzzled.

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Originally Posted by claireswife-gg

Glamourgirl,

My spouse hid the secret that she was TS out of deep shame and lifelong repression beginning in very early childhood. She hid it so well that she was suffering an emotional death from it. She didn't tell me until almost 5 years into the marriage. I certainly don't consider her a liar; she was just trying to survive.

So many people suffer for so many years so their partner can be spared pain or inconvenience. It's not a load lightly shared, and usually shared with disastrous results. If you put someone between a rock and a hard place what do you expect? Have you ever used a pressure cooker?

Knowing what it's like from talking to so many people and seeing the changes in my own spouse, I do consider an effort to spare a spouse for years selfless, not selfish. Have you ever ignored a toothache hoping and praying it would go away? It usually only gets worse over time until you have to do something about it.

Life is short, love is rare, and compassion is precious. I hope you can really talk to your partner and understand his journey to this point better. Be kind and repay 7 years of silent suffering by really working out something that you both can truly live with. Perhaps you should check out the books by Helen Boyd?

Good luck to your family. I hope you can work through this.

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Very well put. Claire is a lucky lady!:iagree:
Tina B.

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Originally Posted by Glamourgirl GG

Do you seriously believe a white lie such as "I didn't cheat on my diet today" is the same as someone not telling you they are a cross dresser? That is not a white lie indeed.



I don't mean to sound harsh, but I find it laughable that anyone would be considered a hero because they CD. My husband is not a hero because he finally told me after 7 years of marriage. Its something he should have done from the start. Am I a hero because I a mother of 4? Am I a hero because I balance work and family? Am I a hero because I left the house today wearing makeup so that no CDer's are out there criticizing me for not fulfilling my role as a female? Good grief, put me on a pedistool. Its called life.

And yes, it is a hobby for many and in another thread many have stated as such so I am not speaking out of turn. So for someone to place priority on a hobby above their family is outrageous.

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A lie is a lie is a lie. No matter if you concider it a "white" lie or not.

And Glamourgirl, you are sooo right! Men sometimes take what women do on a daily basis for granted or don't realize that you really do a lot more than just look pretty. Mothers should not be hero's to just their children, but their husbands too.

My one brother doesn't really have any desire to see me dressed, but understands that it's what I like to do. I wouldn't dress in front of anyone that I didn't have their approval and didn't want to see or felt that is was wrong. It just wouldn't feel right. I call that r e s p e c t.

Good points that we should all heed. Never put yourself ahead of others.

The darkest day of my life was when my wife told me that had she known she wouldn't have married me. I've truly tried all our lives together to be the man she needed. She was told months into our life together. I don't recall if she was pregnant at the time. But god how did I know this wouldn't go away. I was twenty and had no information about who I was as a TG person. She was and is my all. But I just can't not be who I am. I can't deny myself any longer. I know it's tough on her but she's doing much better. I ask her a couple of times a week if she's happy. She always says she is. I'm not totally convinced but I'll take the answer till she volunteers something on her own.

I do want to thank you Tree and everyone who has posted here. It's enlightening to know how others think and feel.

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Originally Posted by Glamourgirl GG

Do you seriously believe a white lie such as "I didn't cheat on my diet today" is the same as someone not telling you they are a cross dresser? That is not a white lie indeed.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I find it laughable that anyone would be considered a hero because they CD. My husband is not a hero because he finally told me after 7 years of marriage. Its something he should have done from the start. Am I a hero because I a mother of 4? Am I a hero because I balance work and family? Am I a hero because I left the house today wearing makeup so that no CDer's are out there criticizing me for not fulfilling my role as a female? Good grief, put me on a pedistool. Its called life.

And yes, it is a hobby for many and in another thread many have stated as such so I am not speaking out of turn. So for someone to place priority on a hobby above their family is outrageous.

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Umm... I'm sorry I seem to have failed to explain myself properly (probably due to the raw emotions at the time) but you seem to have misunderstood what I was trying to say.

Firstly lying. I wasn't saying that failing to tell someone about crossdressing was a white lie. I was saying that virtually every single human being lies about one thing or another for various reasons. This was a lead-in to talking about the motivations for such a lie-by-omission.

As for 'white lies' exactly what makes something fit into this catagory? I never have heard a satisfactory definition. And no I don't think that "I didn't cheat on my diet today" is the same, that is a far less justifiable lie. There is no moral justification for that lie whereas their is a moral (but not ethical and I want to make that distinction) reason to lie about crossdressing. If you want to get to a similar (though more extreme version) of the same sort of lie how about a jew living in nazi germany telling even their close friends that they are not jewish. Or a japanese american during world war 2 saying that they are korean or chinese. Now those are extreme examples but the motivation is based on the same principle ie trying to avoid fear hatred bigotry and negative consequences that would result from honesty. Now that's not the same thing but it is far closer than your example.

Now as for heroics. No of course I don't think your husband is a hero for being a crossdresser. No one is a hero on account of who they are whether that be crossdresser, gay, jew, gypsy, mother, grandmother or the emporer of abyssinia. Heros are those who perform heroic deeds and being open and honest in the face of condemnation, oppression, vilification etc IS heroic. Jews who faced up to Hitler were heroic, blacks who stood up to the kkk were heroic, gays who started the pride marches were heroic, women who faught for the right to vote, worki and be educated were heroic. Therefore crossdressers who are open, honest, out and proud are heroic by that deed not by circumstance or nature. Most of the examples of heroics I gave were rare individuals while most folk in the same catagory sat back paralysed by fears, circumstances or their own feelings of powerlessness. These ordinary folk should not be condemned just because they were not the few who had the combination of rare, nay unique attributes required to be heroes.

You condemn your husband for letting his fears, and might I suggest his love for you, prevent him from being a hero. What you expect from him, honesty suddenly and without hesitation, without self-doubt despite years of societal indoctrination and discrimination is what could only be expected from the greatest of heroes. You also expect him to value ideals more than his family. I do really mean that. You expect him to be ready to risk rejection, to risk destroying his family! He probably can't even be that honest with himself! All the time he was telling you he could quit he was probably trying to convince himself of that because he thinks that is what is needed to keep you and he doesn't want to lose you. Having tried, like many of us including myself, to quit and found it impossible he then does whatever he can in his desperate state of confusion and fear to keep his family together.

As for hobby, sure it might be for some, for others that might be something they tell themselves because they don't want to face the truth that it might be much more than that. I myself thought it wasn't a big part of my life, that I could just quit. I was wrong and many (though maybe not all) who believe they can will probably find the same.

If your husband can quit, if it is just a hobby, then he would have to be the most selfish of psychopaths to choose that over his family. Would you rather believe that of him? Would it be easier for you to believe that he is such an evil being than to face the possibility that he might be a scared and confused human being who loves his family very much but finds that quiting is just impossible, denying some significant portion of himself that he has not come to terms with, does not understand?

I think that you fail to understand the collosal and unjust pressures that society has placed on your husband, perhaps pressures that you have accidentally reinforced. I think you and he should look for some quality (and above all ethical!) counselling. For him to come to terms with what dressing really means to him and to undo the fears that would lead him to feel that he has to lie to protect himself. For you to understand what he is going through and what this could mean for you.

That your husband has lied is sad and pitiful. I doubt he is as selfish as you, perhaps outrageously perhaps not, seem to think he must be.

The question asked was if it was so easy and wives being disposable, I'm not sure how my opinion of a very loud YES I FEEL DISPOSABLE can be called into question. It is how I feel and how I'm sure many of your ex-wives and possibly current wives feel.

The thing I can't comprehend is the fact that I am here to learn and to know as much as I can about CD'ing to better understand my husband, yet when I come to this board there is more "support" in how to hide it from your wife, how to avoid getting caught and those who just want to justify and validate themselves in those actions.

Personally speaking, I have been honest with my husband about everything in my life from the very beginning. I insourced a lot of trust in him and our relationship because well, isn't that what marriage is about? Some may say that is what led to him hiding it from me out of fear of losing me, but the fact is there are plenty I don't and won't share with this board about things that occured during those 7 years that oftentimes he was about to lose me because of. Over those years I spoke a great deal about trust, yet he still never chose to just come forward completely and honestly about everything. I've always told him that I feel like I don't know who he really is.

Trust is a touchy thing. We still talk about it a great deal and somehow he still struggles to trust me enough to tell me stuff despite knowing that I love him and really want to learn and understand all of this better.

One thing I think many of you miss the boat on, is you want your wives and those of us on this board to so deeply understand your point of view, your suffering, your shame, your fear...but have you ever put yourself into our heels to wonder the same about us? Don't you think we feel the same way?

I think we are all the same when it comes to feeling disposable. I feel disposable that my love and committment may not be enough in my marriage when it comes to my husband's CD'ing and him respecting me and valuing me as I do him and those who have come out to their wives or have yet to, also feel disposable that their "second self" may end their marriage in one way or another.

Now with all of that said, I remain firm in saying that I feel disposable. I do hope that we all can learn to be more positive, supportive and encouraging in a positive manner on this board and not encourage anyone down the road of deceit. (And yes, I include myself in the first part of that sentence.)

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Originally Posted by jess(SO)

so where does that leave me as a prejudicer........... accepting or gullible????

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it leaves you working on your prejudices and learning to respect your partner as an individual. Which, IMO, is a great thing because it shows the value you place on your relationship.

Just remember one thing. We lie because of the prejudice. If the prejudice did not exist, we would never think of lying, there would be no need. So the prejudice comes first, and we react as all rational persons would, we hide the issue to avoid the irrational fears of others, just as you now lie to everyone around you by hiding your husband's crossdressing.

So you point out some crossdressers lie and yet you are doing the same now yourself. Do you want to be in this position? of course not, but neither do we. It is a tragedy for both the crossdresser and his SO.

The evil here is the prejudice, this is the source of all the problems. We all naturally absorb the prejuduces of society and it is a difficult thing to block out and overcome. It takes time and patience but I believe if the SO really loves their partner, they will succeed.

However, even if you do, you still face the unsavourary prospect of living in a society which is still overwhelmingly prejudiced against us. Though there are new laws in place to protect our rights, in reality society does not recognize them, we are still openly mocked because being prejudiced against the transgendered is not recognized as a bad thing unlike racism, sexism, religious bigotry etc. Apparently some prejudices are more evil than others....

Until society learns to frown upon prejudice against the transgendered, there will be no incentive for people to change as there is no public shame about expressing prejudice against us. The only ones who have an incentive are the loved ones who find out about the crossdressing. Often these people feel cheated as they have the hard work to unravel their prejudices and lie when nobody else around them has to. Understandably they would have prefered the easy route of not having to deal with this issue in the first instance.

Everyone agrees crossdressers need to come out of the closet, we need to come clean so it is unavoidable and unfortunate that some SOs are going to be caught up in this process. Hopefully future generations will not have to go through this pain.

I wasn't questioning how you feel. Feelings don't correspond to moral right and wrong or ethics or accuracy, they are irrational, often innacurate and so strong as to sometimes be impossible to ignore.

The question at issue here is a philosophical one. What is better, virtue or intended result? If virtue is important then it is good that a person be truthful and honest no matter what the consequences whereas if intended result is what is important then creating the most good for the least harm is what's important no matter what is done to get that. These are of course the extremes of each view.

If you feel the first statement is completely and always true then if you were german but had a jewish husband during WW2 and the Nazi's arrived to take your husband to the death camps it would be the right thing to do to be honest and tell the Nazis that your husband and daughter were hiding in a secret celler.

If you felt the second statement were always true then it would be the right thing to do to murder 1 person if it meant that it would prevent 2 or more people from dying.

Now the crossdressers who are open before all society feel close enough to number 1 that they are willing to risk the possibility that they may lose their loved ones, destroy their families and in some cases even risk their own lives.

The crossdressers who fall more to the second will hide and lie to protect their loved ones from the risk of harm. If there was no harm (or fear of harm) there would be no reason to lie.

Now most of us fall in between these far extremes and often drift over time, often which way we would decide an issue varies depending on context and circumstance. Most people would be willing to have Hitler assassinated if they were sure it would reduce the number of people killed in WW2 but how many would be willing to be that asassin? What if they knew that they would be killed? Or their loved ones would die if they did but it would definately save millions?

Just because you were able to feel comfortable and safe enough or were virtuous enough to be 100% honest with your husband means either that you had no secrets that were risky enough to make that choice difficult enough for you or that you felt so strongly about honesty that you were able to overcome the fear involved.

The trouble with judging your husbands actions means that either you have to assume that every person should feel the same way about honesty over risk/benefit or you have to decide the risk was not sufficient to warrent such a choice. Moral choices are personal and subjective by nature and if, for some crossdressers they feel that the gain or the risk outweighs the deceit that is their choice. I'm sure that they all do so because they feel that it is the right thing to do at the time.

Perhaps your husband does not feel safe or comfortable enough to be completely honest and as long as their is fear there (or more fear than he can overcome) that may well be the case. He, as I said before, may not feel safe enough to be honest with himself! If he can't be honest with himself how could you expect him to be honest with you? Now it's great that you are trying to learn and understand and that will be helping him feel safer in the relationship but there is probably an aweful lot of fear from the outside world (or his impressions of it) that will be encouraging him not to be fully honest too.

Now if many of us crossdressers felt that our loved ones were disposable why would we struggle to stay in those relationships as much as we do? Why would some of us hide it from our partners if we didn't fear their reaction? There is a dillemma where the desire for virtuous choices are weighed against the risks, fears and gains. Not an easy choice.

Trust is a dicey issue. It rarely means what people want it to mean. Trust isn't always where you can be sure a person will act within in a certain set of parameters (prescribed by religion, social convention or any particular philosophy), it often is where you can predict the likely response of an individual in a certain circumstance. I can always trust that gravity will draw rain down (eventually, I've seen some freaky storms) but I can't fully trust whether storm clouds will mean rain.

Perhaps you don't feel you can trust (using this context of the word) your husband as he has not given you sufficient accurate information for you to be able to feel secure in your predictions of his likely future behaviours even though you have been 100% honest with him. He might not have been able to trust you because society and his fears said you would or might behave in a certain way if he was honest.

Really I think that quality counselling could help each of you and both of you. Remember there is no one 'correct' morality (arguments about natural law ethics aside). Certainly also I feel for you when you say you feel disposable and you are right when you say some of us crossdressers have felt disposable, enough of us have been told 'if you love me enough you can/will stop' while in the same breath hearing 'if you don't stop I'll leave you (or even 'I'll kill myself'), but just because that's the way you feel, and feel strongly, doesn't make it true. I don't know the mind of your husband. No-one, not even your husband 100% knows his mind and peoples minds change so I can't say with certainty that you aren't disposable either.

Lots of us here try to understand our partners feelings, thoughts, fears etc. We all have to deal with our preconceptions and societies views about this phenomenon and no-one has a clear advantage. The Dressers have the need which conflicts with societies views which causes conflict within them and in the way they interact with the world around them but which perhaps helps, or forces, them to realise that those preconceptions and societal views might not be true. The partners don't have that, they still have to deal with the same society, the same precfonseptions but they (often but not allways practically) have the capacity to leave the relationship and get away from the issue.. something most dressers try to do but are generally unable to, indeed often suffering badly because of the attempt/s.

There are no 'good guys' or 'bad guys' (or gals) in this issue. There is only: a reality that is not fully understood (and just like anything in reality never will be fully understood, science is after all a road without end), a society that is at odds with reality and lastly people who have to come to terms with it as best they can.

I hope your husband can overcome his need to lie or perhaps his own self denial or confusion. I dearly hope that you can eventually feel safe and secure and happy in your relationship.

Just remember that it is totally impossible for any human being to fully know themselves let alone anybody else. We can only learn to recognise patterns well enough that we can make reasonable predictions. Undertsanding ourselves and others, like any field of learning, is an endless journey. Perfection isn't a static state but instead a rate of constant improvement. The more you learn the further you go but there will always be more to learn and discover.

Satrana: Very well put. This is what makes the heroic actions of open CD's and TG's so virtuous beyond even the virtue of honesty. It is the action for the greatest good as well. The courage and nobility of this act should resound with everyone.

Everyone is different. My wife accepts me, helps me, asks me (sometimes tells me) to change, but, if she wanted me to stop, I would.

This thread has certainly gone in directions I hadn't anticipated. Thank you all, again, for your empassioned, honest and thoughtful posts.

GlamourGirl pointed out that I was originally asking if the spouse of a CD is disposable compared to the "woman within". Truthfulness (IMO lie of ommission is still a lie as it directs attention away from the CDers true self), social pressure & prejudice, shame, hiding, sharing are all significant issues of CDing that never really go away even when the CD is out. I asked my husband somewhere along the way, "If I had said this was perverse and unacceptable & you needed help, what would have happened?" I was told our marriage of 25+ yrs would've ended. Logically, that means that dressing is ultimately more important to him now than maintaining a long-term marriage with someone who isn't able to accept CDing. Also, his needs to express his transgenderism now exceeded his need to be husband (IMO full-time father goes with that).

Now I share those comments not to say my husband is a hard-ass, no compromise type. That's not the case. #1 I never mandated CDing or me - I don't want to be that kind of person - and #2 he has made compromises and difficult character changes to help me understand. I do appreciate those sacrifices and hope that I respond in kind. However, whether consciously made or not, there is an underlying tone of extortion. Strong word, but I do believe it is accurate. If it is unfair of a wife to level the ultimatum, her or me, isn't it equally unfair of the CD to say, "This is what I am NOW. Take it or leave it?" and then be willing (or forced by internal needs) to dispose of the relationship that was built and survived on anything and everthing EXCEPT CDing?

Clothes are not the issue. If it was just an issue of fashion choice, this site probably wouldn't exist. It's the underlying passions, needs, fantasies and desires that emerge when CDing progresses that weren't and aren't shared. I have read many stories from GG's (I've lived through similar times as well) where we tried to be accepting and encouraging only to be told "No, that's not enough" or we receive withdrawal and no comment or action in response. That's hard to take. We don't understand which has led me to believe (which is an about face from my original reactions) that keeping the wife out of it and remaining closeted is not always the wrong course - even if it means some lying or hiding. (I shall now be flogged for blasphemous comments :hiding: )

A CD has a very intimate, wonderous & joyful relationship with the woman within. She can do no wrong in his eyes. The wife is human and flawed - especially if she can't come to terms with CDing. Even the accepting wife is an obstacle to overcome - she requires attention from the CDer's male self which takes time away that could be spent en femme. And many times the frustrations of the CDer consume him and again the wife is left alone (emotionally/intimately). See how that can make the wife resentful?

It's all very confusing and difficult to sort and I do believe few CDers start w/ the conscious thought that they will dispose of their wife if it conflicts w/ CDing, but that doesn't stop if from happening (doesn't matter if wife or CD ends it - it still ends because of CDing). I was just trying to get a perspective from CD's to just how easy is it to make that choice (if it has to be made) and where their femme selves fit into the priorities of their daily lives. And perhaps share a GG/wife's perceived danger that sometimes we fear that we are disposable if it conflicts with their gender expression.:hugs:

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Originally Posted by Satrana

it leaves you working on your prejudices and learning to respect your partner as an individual. Which, IMO, is a great thing because it shows the value you place on your relationship.

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Well I guess that's okay cleared things up then .. it is apparently okay to lie in a relationship just so long as we don't have prejudices ...........

Jess

I really enjoyed reading Tree GG's latest contributation whithin this thread as I believe that a lot of women feel this way insomuch as being "disposable."

Now as I was growing up with these feelings... i.e... Wanting to be a girl, but wanting a woman partner as well. It was a very confusing time indeed. I probably never will understand it all before I die.

I had to repress my desires for the "woman within" to be the "man that society expected" for so long it really hurt any real developement towards a "normal" life with anyone, including myself. I hated what I was. I was concidered a "queer" because of the way I wanted to dress.
By making me feel like an outcast, I'm sure that some people thought they were doing me a favor, but in reality it just made things more confusing for me. I wasn't a "queer!" Although my desires to dress like a woman was something that no one that I knew had ever heard of before so I was given a "label" that they could understand.
If I liked to dress that way, I must like men, and therefore I must be gay. Well, I've been there and experiemented and that wasn't for me either. So now I became a "queer queer".
Women didn't like me. I was a threat to their feminity, or was perverted, or "you really need a man"... I've probably heard every reason that there is over the years.
Men don't like me either. I threaten their manlyhood making them wonder about thoughts that they had when they were young about the same thing and it scares the hell out of them.
So there I was... In this nether-world.. Not either gender, but both too.
When you try to explain this to someone, it's no surprise that they can't understand. How can you make someone understand something that you don't understand yourself.

So I crossdressed as a man all my life and had to be the "tough guy" to compensate for my true self so that "she" wouldn't show through and I could keep my little secret a secret. A tough life indeed.
I find trying to write about what it felt like growing up like this a very hard thing to do.

Women were by far not disposable to me... At first, I tried very hard to supress "her" so I could be the "man" that women expected, hoping that once I had a woman by my side that "she" would "go away." NOT! I just became more & more frustrated by not being able to express myself and finding that no one would ever understand didn't help matters much at all.

Now that I have found someone that seems to understand, I am so relieved and especially now that she lets me dress anytime, even helping at times with my hair, makeup, shopping, etc., that I find myself overwhelmed at times with flooding feelings of joy and relief, it's no wonder I find myself in the "pink fog" a lot of the time. (I love the fog too!)

I'm not sure where else I can go with this, but maybe others will chime in and fill in some more details.
Sorry this has been so long, but it really is a hard thing to try to express.

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Originally Posted by Tree GG

Logically, that means that dressing is ultimately more important to him now than maintaining a long-term marriage with someone who isn't able to accept CDing. Also, his needs to express his transgenderism now exceeded his need to be husband (IMO full-time father goes with that).

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Tree, I cannot comment on your own relationship as that is unique to yourself but I do wish to comment on your statement as it has been said by other ggs. As the SO you have the external view of this dynamic situation and what, of course, is most striking to you is the crossdressing event itself. The cd has the inside view and for him the crossdressing event is just the summation of what he is feeling. So for him your statement has the wrong focus and should read - "is being accepted as a whole complete person more important than maintaining a marriage with someone who is not accepting of who he is". Same issue but looking at it from another direction.

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We don't understand which has led me to believe (which is an about face from my original reactions) that keeping the wife out of it and remaining closeted is not always the wrong course - even if it means some lying or hiding.

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I agree. Each relationship is unique and the husband is in a much better position to decide upon the right course of action than an outsider preaching absolute honesty. We all want to believe in that perfect world of complete honesty but in reality we all lie in some shape or form every day of our lives. Anyone who claims 100% honesty is delusional.

If the husband feels certain that his wife would reject his crossdressing and this would drive a major wedge between them in an otherwise good and happy relationship, then staying in the closet can be viewed as the best course of action. Hiding the crossdressing is not always the evil deception some make it out to be but rather an act of love and self-sacrifice where the cd lessens his happiness for the sake of his SO. It is far from a perfect solution, but it may be the best solution available.

Which leads me back to a point I made earlier about that gut wrenching statement from ggs "If you had told me while we were dating I would have never married you". The fact that SOs did in fact unknowingly fall in love with and marry a cd disproves this prejudiced viewpoint. By hiding the physical apparition of his transgenderism, the SO judged the cd as a person and decided to settle down with him. So there is a strong argument to be made that the cd made the right choice at the time by hiding his cding to prevent his SO from making the wrong choice based upon irrational prejudice. I know this conflicts with honesty and trust issues but in life there is always more than one correct answer.

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A CD has a very intimate, wonderous & joyful relationship with the woman within. She can do no wrong in his eyes. The wife is human and flawed - especially if she can't come to terms with CDing. Even the accepting wife is an obstacle to overcome - she requires attention from the CDer's male self which takes time away that could be spent en femme.

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My own personal view is that maintaining a dual personality is harmful for the crossdresser himself and harmful for the relationship. I believe maintaining two separate male and female personas is a stage of arrested development that many cds get stuck at. I believe that the cd should complete the whole cycle and integrate both personas back into one complete whole. Otherwise as you correctly point out the wife will end up competing for time and attention with the femme persona and will often lose out. BUT a cd will not be able to achieve this if his SO is not accepting and controls and limits the crossdressing. This will ensure the dual personality and its associated problems continues.

In a perfect world a cd would have got this stuff all worked out while he was younger and before he got married. Instead the SO usually ends up with a "half finished project" which the cd does not understand himself and does not know where it is all heading, he just knows this is an integral part of him which he cannot ignore or remove but maintains it as a separate distinct mode of being which can prove destructive.

I know the above is not applicable to everyone as there are multiple reasons why someone crossdresses but I do believe it applies to the majority.

Very good thread everyone!

Satrana you made some great points there.

TreeGG, Satrana is right. When you said "Logically, that means that dressing is ultimately more important to him now than maintaining a long-term marriage with someone who isn't able to accept CDing." there is an error in your logic. When asking someone you can only keep one thing either something they would do whatever they could to keep or something that they couldn't give up no matter how hard they tried, what could the answer be? It's a false dilemma, there is only one possible answer to it. That is what your question is to most crossdressers. For your statement to be logical it first must be so that crossdressing was a choice free of all needs drives or compulsions which is clearly not the case for many.

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However, whether consciously made or not, there is an underlying tone of extortion. Strong word, but I do believe it is accurate. If it is unfair of a wife to level the ultimatum, her or me, isn't it equally unfair of the CD to say, "This is what I am NOW. Take it or leave it?" and then be willing (or forced by internal needs) to dispose of the relationship that was built and survived on anything and everthing EXCEPT CDing?

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This is the same false dilemma. The SO says "Do the impossible or I will end the relationship". The CD'er has no choice there but to try and fail or realise that they will fail and be honest that it is so. The Cd'er says "There is more to reality than we realise, these are facts that can't be ignored. We must take these facts and learn to live with them. I cannot change these facts." The two are not the same and, so long as there is no cure for crossdressing that is the harsh reality of it. We cannot keep people alive by sheer force of will no matter how much we love them. We cannot halt the passage of time no matter our fear of aging. It's hard to learn to cope with reality.

Even were a cure to exist it would be unethical for any SO to request or expect their partner to take it. As understandable as the emotional distress both may feel about it, this distress comes because crossdressing is not something that we grow up being ok with, being taught about or imagining will be a part of our lives - either CD's or SO's. I expect that many parents of gay children go through similar problems. I expect that many husbands of women during the rise of feminism felt similarly as the woman they always felt sure would wear skirts, cook dinner and raise children suddenly decide to get a job, an education and doesn't take his feelings into account when doing so.

Whenever anyone discovers that what they have been led to believe about the world is wrong their can be all sorts of powerful emotional reactions and journeys. It can be horrifying, confusing or even liberating.

It is not the CD who is being unfair. Both are caught up in a circumstance that is unfair. Society is unfair, life is unfair, death and disease is unfair too. People can learn to cope with unfairness and to alleviate the natural unfairness of life by our knowledge, our wisdom and our actions.

As to the relationship with the women within... umm... maybe for some that could be true but it most certainly isn't with me. I don't have a relationship with my rational side or with my emotions. Not in the way I have a relationship with a friend or a family member or my partner. I don't have a relationship with my femininity, it is a part of me and yes it is true that a lot of aspects of my personality are stronger when I am expressing my femininity.. feminine aspects of my personality that are always present. I am not a different person or do not have a different person inside my head or heart. Considering the massive limitations on acceptable expression of men in this society (compare the diversity in men and womens clothing, it's not hard to miss) and the way men are forced into steroetypical behaviours to be accepted by both men and women where anything remotely feminine (until the recent metrosexual trend emerged) was taboo then it is hardly surprising that many of us either see that the only acceptable thing is to be fully-male or as female as possible.

Myself I like being masculine, I like being feminine and I like being androgynous, all depending on the mood at the time. Surely in an enlightened world that freedom should exist for everyone?
:hugs: for everyone

Ok, I can't believe I am going to reply to this thread, but once again...

I have done, and continue to do, everything in the world I can to support my wife, and get for her the things she wants in this world. I have lived for her since day one. The one thing I seem to not be able to do for her, is to kill this part of me. Apparently, it is the most important thing that I do for her. This is the most agonizing situation either of us has ever been in. It will probably end our marriage. The last thing I want.

I have gone down the road of self discovery over the past 3 years now in order to answer her questions about this all (mine as well). The answers are not what either of us had hoped I guess. I have spent much time and money to learn that for me, this isn't going away. It scares me to say that, every time. It scares me to think that the thing I have been ashamed of, felt guilty over, felt at odds with everybody I meet over, isn't going to leave me alone depsite all the emotional harm I have done to myself, and her over the years. She has known about my cding since about 6 years into our 15 year marriage. She had all the usual concerns, fears, doubts, self consciousness, that most wives feel. And as most husbands do, I told her none of it had to do with her. Its true.

I have gone from hiding in self disgust to righteous indignation over the years. As I have come to understand that some people are just born this way. I still don't like myself much, but at least am starting to believe (after 3 therapists, and thousands of dollars) that this is me, or a part of me. The same me she fell in love with all those years ago. The same me who has pluses and minuses everywhere else. The same me who for years hid the truth in order to spare her and myself the pain that I seemed to know this would cause. We went from her being Ok with, and participating in my "activities" to now her disgust of me. All the while with me practicing so much self restraint that even now I wonder why I can't just make it go away. And they say the truth shall set you free. The truth hurts, it always does.

You see, for some of us, our own self hatred and disgust is so deep that we will kill ourselves emotionally in order to feel some relief from our differentness. For some of us, we need our spouses acceptance, so that we may gain our own. For some of us, our spouses refusal to try and understand, accept, and forgive us, let alone be OK with us is so crushing that we put ourselves thru a living hell trying to be "normal" for them, even when we couldn't do it for ourselves. Only to fail, and feel even more worthless than before. Now we can add a failed marriage to the feelings of low self esteem.

So when the "freedom" statements are made, I guess you have to take them in the context of what that person's life experiences have been. I sat here reading all the repsonses and was amazed at the diversity of how we differently gendered people feel about ourselves. Some are not at all comfortable with them selves. Some are, but place the wants and needs of their families ahead of their own. Some put themselves right out front, and are called selfish for it. Except maybe, we all forget that life is a dance and we learn as we go. And that change is constant.

If you have a spouse who cd's, and are coming here looking for answers I applaud you. Whatever the result, you cared enough to at least look for them. I hope that whatever the outcome, you can resolve your hurt feelings about this all, because I don't think any of us "husbands" ever wanted to hurt you, and most of us have done everything in our power to control this, and isolate you from it. For the rest of us, I guess there is no simple answer. And none of us are the same, neither is our take on the outcome.

I understand the point you're making about being asked to give up that which cannot be given. Although a valid point, as already pointed out, the world is not black and white and I don't believe that's the only option.

IMO, when a wife finds out AFTER establishing a life with this man, and eventually responds with CDing or me, what she is really saying is that the CD experience she is having (and you CD's have to take responsibility as our guides, here) is not good, healthy or enjoyable for HER. Worst case scenario is that something deep inside her belief system makes CDing unacceptable behavior.

My husband keeps telling me this should be fun...it was suppose to be fun. He has had fun with it, but not every time. I've only experienced him comfortable with it once or twice. And I've offered to withdraw - take me out of the equation until he's more comfortable with himself (refused). At the risk of redundancy (too late :heehee: ) it's not about the clothes. It's about knowing my husband, knowing what he likes, what he doesn't like, is he happy, are we happy together (in general, of course), are his needs met, are my needs being met.....on ad nauseum. Hell, if I were in his shoes, I think it might be easier to throw my hands up & say enough, one thing at a time and you've already had your turn.

That is flippant, and an over-simplification, but you get the idea. It's hard and I believe it would be easier to deal with one's gender issues (or simple CD issues) without having to maintain a family life - especially when the two are NOT merged. So yes, it could be just that easy to choose CDing over a spouse. I'm not saying it's the best choice, just easiest. The 3rd option is perseverance, patience and compassion. From both sides, toward each other and themselves. It is by far harder to work through it together.

Is it worth it? I read some really scary horror stories and some really wonderful happily-ever-after stories. As was said, every relationship is different so we'll just have to wait and see how our's plays out. :hugs: Best of luck to us all.

I've spoken about the moral dillemas... now lets look at this ethically.

Based on such simple notions as basic human rights, individual rights and basic responsibility for these lets see where that takes us.

If I asked my partner not to talk to members of her family that I don't like or that don't like me that would seem unreasonable but I have every right to ask it because I have every right to ask anything.. but she always has the right to say no.

If I said she had to cut off contact and if she didn't the relationship would be over that would be unethical and therefore totally wrong.

If I asked her and she said no but I found that I could not stay in the relationship because of those family members (which seems a pretty sad reason to end a relationship) that is my right.

If I spoke to my partner and said that I could not stand that family member and asked her to keep said person out of contact with me that is a much better request, though she could still say no. If she did say no I could then say that I would not talk to them or interact with them whenever near them, because that is my right.

Ethically you can ask whatever you want from your partner, but you must respect their decision if they say no. You do have the right to control over yourself though and can demand whatever you want in terms of, and completely limited to, your own self. On a simple matter of rights that is the way it works. If someone wants to touch you when you don't want to be touched or in a way you don't want to be touched you can say no.. this is because of your individual rights.

So ethically to demand that someone give up dressing is just plain wrong, but to demand it never occur with your interaction is perfectly fine.

On the same lines people have an ethical responsibility to provide any information that could substantially impact the life of their partner or cause any sort of harm. In which case every crossdresser should be up front and honest, telling their partners ASAP and perhaps even becoming out and open ASAP. (emphasis on the possible, psychological factors still must be considered here). Still individuals, even in relationships, still have a right to privacy. I'll get back to that.

It is simply unethical to fail to allow or to attempt to interfere with the free exercise of an individuals basic rights unless the exercise of those rights directly contravenes your own. Logically then it is also unethical to fail to support anothers claim on a right that you yourself use or possess. If you want free speech you must then support the free speech of others. If you want civil rights for all races you then have to support civil rights for gays and all other consensual sexualities.

This means that every rational reasonable human being should accept CD's and TG's. That every rational and human being should support womens rights, black rights, gay rights and yes crossdressers rights too. If people would not want to be discriminated against they must fight all discrimination in any form. Remember the 'golden rule'...

So while some arguments could be made for hiding, equally powerful, or perhaps more powerful, arguments could be made that failure to accept a persons full individual rights including dressing is totally unacceptable and that every single rational person has a responsibility to fight for all human and civil rights!

So how does the right to privacy impact the responsibility to pass on information when there is a risk of harm? Certainly an individual can keep their desires and practices to themselves if they won't harm anyone. So only if there is a reasonable risk of harm is the responsibility greater than the right to privacy. If you carry a comunicable disease you must inform your partner, if you have a non communicable disease is there any risk that would require you to inform your partner?

Which harm is greater, the harm of the telling or the harm of the not-telling?The emotional distress that can come of a reaction to being informed about crossdressing is clearly for some harmful short-term, but isn't there an ethical responsibility to put those people through short term harm to give them the ful freedom of an informed choice? or for the long term responsibility of fighting for human/civil rights?

Do people have an ethical right to have a problem with crossdressing? Interesting question. Do people have a right to discriminate based on diabetes? Well no. What about skin colour? Nope. Gender? of course not. Race? Nah-uh. Hair colour? nope. What about people who dye their hair colour? Sorry, still no. Now people have, often strong, psychological and emotional reactions to those things but that does not make them right and it is generally understood that it is the responsibility of people to fight those feelings within themselves and change racist, sexist attitudes. I think that means that everyone has an equal responsibility to overcome any negative feelings they have towards crossdressing no matter who they are.

Remember, nature isn't ethical (or moral) and society has a long way to go to be ethical too. This means that it is normal for people to have feelings, reactions or views that are unethical.. and wrong.

Does this mean that ethically every Cd should be out and every SO should march beside them in pride marches? Sort-of. How people fight for those rights is up to them, risking their lives in a red-neck town isn't neccessary to fight for rights. Anonymous letters to the editer, how one votes, the stand we take in conversations with family and friends or at work are all opportunities for those who feel they have to hide for their own protection to do their part. I realise that even these things can be hard for some, and many SO's would find it hard also. It is ethically the right thing to do though.

Oh, and as to individual beliefs, they can inform moral decisions relating to the individual but if we acknowledge the golden rule philosophically, if we recognise basic rights and that all people are to be treated equally this rules out an individuals capacity to treat other people based on their personal views.

I'll explain. If a christian believes in equality and religious freedom then ethically they must support secular government. Why? Well they would not like it if Muslims were able to impose their beliefs or practices in the public sphere or restrict christian religious practise. So while the individual christian might believe the muslim mjight be destined to burn in hell they must still fight to support the right of that muslim to his religious freedom. Even if a persons religious or other beliefs are opposed to crossdressing for themselves this logical/philosophical principle demands they must respect the rights to it for others, even there partners!