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Cross dressing is a hard nut to crack... I'm of the mind that if you live in a big enough town then nobody really would care.. but the smaller the town the tougher the sell that we are normal.. I'm normal.. I want to think I'm normal.. I know that when I buy shoes at the payless store that I am thought of as just a person buying shoes.. and not a pervert buying womens heels to wear or do something unimagineable in later..
I seem to recall reading somewhere on here where a person was "invisible" to the community in which he lived and was not noticed when he passed away.
Well we can become the same, spend enough time out in your community and you become "invisible", part and parcel of everyday life.
Just my humble opionion.
Brenda,
I took your question and put it to the test, so to speak. by going dressed to a casino a couple hour drive from my home. This is in the heartland of the midwest, on a sunday, where the majority of the clientel was farm folk. I dressed in jeans, flats, wig, makeup, nice rose colored top and of course 40D forms. Everyone was polite including the staff and I had a wonderful day. Like a few others have said it could be different in different locals or envirorments but the fact is many of the things we take for granted were won over issues that needed to be explained or fought for.
In general when people educate themselves or begin to understand this will not rub off on you or make you a CDer against your will they may come to a more accepting way of looking at someone that crossdresses. Keli
Well done Keli-h (love the name). I am trying to do more things like that too. We need to try to push our own envelopes, so to speak, as much as we can, in a respectful, and appropriate way for the places we go. Some haven't reached that comfort level yet, but for those of us willing to put ourselves out there it may help the rest to the point where one day we can all come out and enjoy ourselves.
Keli-h: When people are in a place that is outside their every day environment they will behave but when they get into a place where they feel comfortable their attitude changes. What I think is important is to speak up especially when in drab when we hear statements putting any one down. This is what causes people to think before saying stupid stuff. It like when we hear the N. word if we speak up and say we don't want to hear that people will stop saying it. Now will we be accepted, yes some day, not tomorrow, one day people will realize that life is full of differences and that its to our best interest it to get along and not put people down because they are different from us.
Acceptance probably will happen, and probably sooner than later. Anymore, no one will even think twice or give a second glance to a girl who is wearing all men's clothes.
I'm afraid your another victim of the deliberate erasing or unreporting of us in history and anthropology. Let me give you some examples which you can look further into. Don't take my word on it, the information is out there to corroborate all these it's just not talked about.Quote:
Originally Posted by sherib
Samoa: accepted and valued part of society. The Fafafine (and there are multiple spellings of that) are a 'thrid sex' of crossdressing males which look after the house and children of their extended families and are most mens first sexual experience!
Tonga: Accepted and valued part of society. At coronations of the king and royal marriages it is a crossdresser who arranges the celebrations! (there is footage of this from the last Royal marriage in an old thread in the media section!)
Native America: many tribes had MtFs and FtMs as extremely sacred, often shamans. Some of the chiefs famous to white america regularly consulted CDs for their advise.
Ancient Greece: was accepted and sacred. The Cybaline faith for example was made up entirely of MtF priestesses who were castrated as a primitive form of SRS
Ancient Scythia: Accepted and sacred. The main faith was the goddess associated with horses. The priestesses were MtF who not only were castrated but drank the urine of pregnant mares for their hormones. They also had warrior women of high rank. They defeated Rome on several occassions!
That's the tiniest tip of the iceberg. Examples can be found amongst cultures right around the world and right throughout history. So you couldn't be more wrong about acceptance but with the silence on the subject thats hardly your fault.
The fact is that acceptance has been common throughout human history. UNacceptance instead is in much of the world quite new!
I doubt the inevitability of acceptance or the norming of crossdressing. Looking at the history of western civilization there is a cyclical pattern in mores. Societies become very conservative, then chafe at the restriction and become looser. Again, some point is reached where society reacts to the extreme permissiveness that seems like anarchy and returns the other way. How far out on the swing to permissiveness before it turns the other way is the question.
Warm regards,
Christina Nicole
Awesome! Ancient Scythians were the first people to develop Premarin (pregnant mare's urine-- common drug given to menopausal women to help with hormone imbalances)! I doubt the Scythian mares had quite as crappy a time as the modern day ones, but I also doubt the Scythians were mass-producing the hormones, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
too much thinking gives me a headache.
Acceptance is moving forward,think back to the 60's,bet it was quite a challenge for tg folks going out then, compared to now.Just that in itself is something to be grateful for.
I agree with...... you are ordinary people who want to go about your life and acceptance will come.Quote:
Originally Posted by PamelaTX
But the comment about Drag Queens. :o I just do not get that
I guess being accepting of others that are different than you you might have to accept some one else for who he or she is, you first must accept yourself For it is then some one can have an appreciation for others; appreciate and accept yourself first.
Begin With Self-Love and Self-Acceptance
I noticed a change a attitudes about 1990. I would go in and but a pair of shoes in a size nine and the girls started asking if I wanted to try them on. I said no one time and the girl said "you'll love them, they're so comfortable". After that I always tried them on.
I totally see your point, but the note about drag queens is a fair one. The ones I've MET (that is, ran into in person and in some cases spoke to, however briefly) seem... off. That is, they didn't seem entirely normal. Whereas we would be perfectly normal people in or out of dress (even if we may alter our voices and mannerisms depending).Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
My prime example is this one that I see fairly regularly on the Metro North train I take home from NYC in the evenings. A very large black masculine drag queen (platform heels, black fishnets, SHORT hot pink skirt, black tight see through shirt, and BLEACH BLONDE WIG) frequently rides the train in the evening, and looks about as crazy you can get.
I have no doubt that this particular example is actually out of his/her/its mind. But it's just one of several. Others have been a little bit distant and almost "not there." I wouldn't discount drugs being involved, though, which would certainly account for some of the behavior.
Watch who your calling normal! It can be a terrible insult. I'm proud not to be 'normal' as normal has wife-beaters and pedophiles amongst it because thats the best place to hide when you have something sick and evil to hide! But amongst the weird are the kindest nicest gentlest and best people I've ever met! People unafraid to be honestly different. So I'd rather be amongst the weird then the normal, because almost the rot corruption, hypocracy and evil is amonsgt the normal.Quote:
Originally Posted by kathrynjanos
Good. Eccentric people are usually safer than the predators who hide in sheeps clothing of 'normal'. And liberty means liberty, not a slight choice of conformity A or conformity B.Quote:
My prime example is this one that I see fairly regularly on the Metro North train I take home from NYC in the evenings. A very large black masculine drag queen (platform heels, black fishnets, SHORT hot pink skirt, black tight see through shirt, and BLEACH BLONDE WIG) frequently rides the train in the evening, and looks about as crazy you can get.
I've seen more outrageous clothes than you describe on GG goths in my own town! Including a friend of mine!
Well drug-use is often one way people try to cope with things like the trauma of oppression and repression and the family abandonment that many especially older TG people have gad to face when coming out.Quote:
I have no doubt that this particular example is actually out of his/her/its mind. But it's just one of several. Others have been a little bit distant and almost "not there." I wouldn't discount drugs being involved, though, which would certainly account for some of the behavior.
And there is lots of mental health issues many face too. Only through more acceptance can we get rid of these problems of drugs and mental helath problems amongst our community.
So consider universal acceptance of free expression. And maybe those people will be able to be happy and ok in the future!
I agree with your timeline, by 1990 the gay pride movement was making good headway and was changing social values. People began to accept the notion that being gay was "normal" and gays were not perverts and child molesters. Since lay people think CDs are gays, we benefited from this progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marjory
I am surprised at those who are so negative about social acceptance. There has been substantial progress made over the last few decades and the rate of change is accelerating. The advent of the internet is blowing away traditional conventions. Individualism and liberal progressiveness is rampant especially among the younger generations. This is why we have witnessed a strong backlash from traditional conservatives but it is nothing more than a futile last stand.
We are only a few decades away from acceptance and we could greatly accelerate progress by active campaigning. The current generation is too closeted and timid to take up the challenge but not so the next generation. In 20 years time there will be public CD rallies and marches and widespread acceptance will come quickly thereafter.
I'd say it will take quite a while before we are accepted by the general population, especially outside major cities, and acceptance won't become widespread in our lifetime. There's too much stigma attached to guys displaying feminine behavior of any type for it to ever be considered 'normal'; we're going against thousands of years of evolution here. And when you want to take it one step further, where we are understood and accepted by the women we are interested in, well, none of us are going to live that long. There's too much genetically influenced attraction for that to become mainstream.
One day, all people will be able to dress as they want without being ridiculed, it may not happen tomorrow, but I see it in my lifetime.
So now who's generalizing? You can be weird and still be mentally healthy, but "not normal" is what I'm defining as seeming distinctly UNHEALTHY. Whether by some mental illness or through drug use, it doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Now, you're talking about using drugs to COPE with whatever societal ill you feel has befallen you or the people refer to? Yeah, sorry, escapism is NOT coping, you're just running away from it and never dealing with it. And yes, I know that some people cannot be reasoned with and will never change their opinions, but that's their loss. That's why people seek support from friends and strangers, both online and in person. Realizing that something is not necessarily your fault is important. Drugs will NEVER help you deal with that, because now in addition to being some pervert to this person or people, you're also a druggie, and quite possibly an addict.
And while we're on the subject of weirdos being better than the normal people, you should look up David Berkowitz. So let's not defend the abnormal by blanket statement either.
What do we want? women's fashions! When do we want it? Now!
Why? Because if you watch many science fiction movies about the future we will all dress alike anyway. The only thing different will be the tapering.
Is this a guarantee? Nope, look at the original StarTrek. I would much rather dress Like Uhura than Spock. But you also notice that there were no transgender major characters. Now we know Sulu was in the closet but he didn't come out until he retired. (Don't ask don't tell in the 25th century?).
So we have two scenarios here, androgynous jumpsuits or cute minis. I vote the minis and hope that there really were transgendered crew on the Enterprise.
:2c:Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
I agree! In fact, part of the fun in CDing is that it allows me to be myself and not just "blend in" with the herd. Normal is simply a statistical average of what everyone else is doing, and who wants to be average? Or just like everyone else? I simply want to be myself, and be left alone by the drones who want to know, "Why can't you be like everyone else?" as if that was such a great thing.
:daydreaming::heehee:
I'm not sure why drag-queens are such a bad thing according to some of the people in this thread, but while doing drugs to escape the behavioral problems some face is not good, it is most definitely not surprising. I don't think any one in here said drug use is a good coping mechanism, but to solve the problem people need to ask WHY do they do it?
I find it very interesting, that so many crossdressers attack people that are different than themselves. Its a lot like some in the gay community attacking transgenders. Having personally experienced discrimination, and fear of rejection due to our ways, you would think would make us more understanding of those that are different and outside social norms. Just because someone is a drag queen doesn't make them any better or worse than a crossdresser. It just makes them different. We ourselves live in the delusion that we are a part of "normal" society. Just because many of us hide in the closet, and live seemingly "normal" lives doesn't give us the right to persecute those that don't live in the closet, and live different ways than ourselves. Blaming the "weird" people for lack of societal acceptance is quite frankly inexcusable.
I do not beleive that in my lifetime there will be 100% acceptance of transgendered persons. I do know that President Obama and The White House have provided on the White House web page the following statement of their support for all of us. No other president gave this statement. Of course the religious right are gearing up to fight Obama for their right to continue to hate:
Support for the LGBT Community
"While we have come a long way since the Stonewall riots in 1969, we still have a lot of work to do. Too often, the issue of LGBT rights is exploited by those seeking to divide us. But at its core, this issue is about who we are as Americans. It's about whether this nation is going to live up to its founding promise of equality by treating all its citizens with dignity and respect."
-- Barack Obama, June 1, 2007
Expand Hate Crimes Statutes: In 2004, crimes against LGBT Americans constituted the third-highest category of hate crime reported and made up more than 15 percent of such crimes. President Obama cosponsored legislation that would expand federal jurisdiction to include violent hate crimes perpetrated because of race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender identity, or physical disability. As a state senator, President Obama passed tough legislation that made hate crimes and conspiracy to commit them against the law.
Fight Workplace Discrimination: President Obama supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and believes that our anti-discrimination employment laws should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity. While an increasing number of employers have extended benefits to their employees' domestic partners, discrimination based on sexual orientation in the workplace occurs with no federal legal remedy. The President also sponsored legislation in the Illinois State Senate that would ban employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
Melanie
The nice thing about bigotry is that it is equal opportunity. Whether one leans to the left or the right, there bigotry that fits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie R
I'm showing that an accurate representation of odds based around the sound logical notion that predators work better with cameoflage (as seen throughout the natural world) is in fact in opposition to the generalisation based on a logical fallacy, that someones failure to conform to social 'norms' is a good predictor of their danger to you or that conforming to social norms is a good predictor of that safety.Quote:
Originally Posted by kathrynjanos
But certainly by all means everyone should be judged on a case-by-case basis and judgement by groups is frought with error.
But appearance and even behaviour is no predictor of that. Behaviour may be caused by disability like learning difficulties, cognitive impairment, autism, aspergers etc that are no predictor of a persons danger!Quote:
You can be weird and still be mentally healthy, but "not normal" is what I'm defining as seeming distinctly UNHEALTHY. Whether by some mental illness or through drug use, it doesn't matter.
Oh I do thoroughly agree. Self-medication is no successful way of dealing with problems, but it is the most common cause of drug misuse. Hence fixing the broader social problems and preventative measures to minimise mental health problems in society will reduce the drug problems in the community and also many forms of related crime. But absolutley drug-use may seem to the user to give short-term relief but in the long-term makes things vastly worse.Quote:
Now, you're talking about using drugs to COPE with whatever societal ill you feel has befallen you or the people refer to? Yeah, sorry, escapism is NOT coping, you're just running away from it and never dealing with it.
I agree! But it's important to understand people before judging them. And it's important to understand causal relationships when attempting to solve a problem. The best way to help these people in the long-term is to raise public acceptance of TG.Quote:
And yes, I know that some people cannot be reasoned with and will never change their opinions, but that's their loss. That's why people seek support from friends and strangers, both online and in person. Realizing that something is not necessarily your fault is important. Drugs will NEVER help you deal with that, because now in addition to being some pervert to this person or people, you're also a druggie, and quite possibly an addict.
I never said every strange person was a good one. Merely that strange people are per capita vastly dissproportionately good people when compared to the 'mainstream' population, as the sociological studies of Goths shows. Sure there are some violent Goths, but studies have shown that Goths are one of the most peaceful non-violent communities around, and while there are high proportions of things like depression and self-harm amongst those who enter the Goth community it does not mean that parents should be worried that their happy Goth teens will become depressed and self-harming because they are goths but in fact the opposite as the studies have shown the Goth community is in fact advantageous and healing to such people with its extremely high levels of acceptance of difference and emotional community support!Quote:
And while we're on the subject of weirdos being better than the normal people, you should look up David Berkowitz. So let's not defend the abnormal by blanket statement either.
But certainly there are exceptions like amongst any other community which is why assuming every goth is safe is just as irrational as assuming that normal people are safer than weirdos.
There is no hatred for the religious right in accurately reporting that they are opposing equality and that they wish to defend their freedom to hate. That's just accuracy. Hopefully their policies will change. I have friends who are both religious and conservative and I do not hate them. The fact is that as a movement they do oppose universal equality, that they oppose equality for LGBT people. It is note hate to state that fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christina Nicole
But you are right, there is bigotry amongst all groups. A blatent hypocracy in any supposedly egalitarian system, especially as the validity of anyones rights is predicated on it being available equally to everyone.
What's worse is that those leading such opposition are lying so often. With the lies about the bathroom issues for TG people for example where they know that there has never been a rise in assaults by allowing TG people to use presntation-appropriate bathrooms anywhere in the world yet they are producing public advertisements stirring up fear and hatred with lies that say that such provisions will result in such.
A deliberate statement of falsehood designed to ensure an inequality and injustice using fear and inspiring hatred? That is hate pure and simple and stating that fact is not hating.
Not every conservative christian is anti LGBT. I do hope they will speak out enough on the issue to reform their movement.