Can you CD w/o being TG?

Does anyone else find it amusing that a non-CD male who stays home with the children, does the lion's share of the housework, goes grocery shopping, cries while watching old movies, prefers to let his wife drive when they go places, and doesn't hog the remote is not "crossing gender expression lines;" but another guy who is in every other way a stereotypical male, yet likes to put on a dress now and then to get off, is considered a gender rebel. :)

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

Does anyone else find it amusing that a non-CD male who stays home with the children, does the lion's share of the housework, goes grocery shopping, cries while watching old movies, prefers to let his wife drive when they go places, and doesn't hog the remote is not "crossing gender expression lines;" but another guy who is in every other way a stereotypical male, yet likes to put on a dress now and then to get off, is considered a gender rebel. :)

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I'm not sure that challenging some traditional male role models or being considerate of others necessarily crossing a gender line.

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

I'm not sure that challenging some traditional male role models or being considerate of others necessarily crossing a gender line.

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Neither am I. That's the nature of norms, though. It's in virtually everyone's experience that participating in some things results in people viewing your masculinity differently and not so when participating in others. I'll say this, though: Just about everyone on the planet is *actutely* aware, to the minutest detail, of behaviors that would trigger the question.

Lea

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

I'm not sure that challenging some traditional male role models or being considerate of others necessarily crossing a gender line.

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When it comes to gender, do you consider external presentation more important than internal modes of thinking?

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

When it comes to gender, do you consider external presentation more important than internal modes of thinking?

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Do we really need to go around in this circle again, Sophie? Is a male who cares for children, lets someone else drive and cries at certain films really expressing feminine charactersitics. Or is he simply a good parent, who hates traffic and has a soft heart? Perhaps they are, if you assume all of those things are inherently feminine. But let me remind you that the OP wasn't whether men who defy stereotypes are TG, it was whether men who CD are necessarily TG. Your premise might make for another interesting thread.

I wasn't going to add any more to this discussion, but the last few contributions have brought to the forefront a thought that I had not mentioned previously. There are men who reflect far more of what society deems to be feminine, in their everyday life, than do most men. However, regardless of this fact, they consider themselves to be male, and nobody would challenge them as being transgendered. Their interests are primarily feminine in nature, they often engage in feminine style occupations, they do not suppress the expression of their emotions, and they often show a disdain for many of the more stereotypical male activities such as sports, home repairs, cars and so on. Some idiots may call them names, or poke fun at them, but they are rarely thought of as being transgendered.

The only form of expression that seems to rate that nomenclature, in the minds of many, is the wearing of clothing and the adoption of a few other aspects of appearance that society considers to be applicable to the female. However, appearance is such a minor part of our overall persona, and external rather than internal, that it is ludicrous to use it as the sole determinant of an individual's entire gender identity. There are a myriad of reasons to crossdress and a myriad of benefits, both psychological and physiological that may result. And yes, some of them may have an impact on identity in one way or another, but there is no hard and fast rule that says that this must be so in every individual case.

Gender identity is defined by WPATH as being "A person’s intrinsic sense of being male,...female...etc." How we may express certain elements of our personality and so on does not necessarily impact upon that basic intrinsic sense, especially if it is a relatively minor aspect. I believe that transgender can be a very useful term to describe and categorize certain types of individual. However, to fit into that category, there has to be something in one's intrinsic sense that they are not solely a man but also a woman or something in between. They have to feel that they become a woman, or are a woman depending upon the impact of their gender role/expression. Intrinsic means "belonging to a thing by its very nature". It is not sufficient to simply appear to others like a woman. You have to be a woman (temporarily, partially or completely), and want to project that to others.

In my case, I have no desire for anyone to think that I am a woman, I am not attempting to fool anyone, and any futile attempts I may make to appear passable are to satisfy my own artistic desires, not to become a woman. Those who insist that all crossdressers must be TG are basing it on external appearances and not the individual's intrinsic sense of who they are, which nobody but that individual really knows.

After reading through this entire thread, I cannot understand why some of those who feel they are transgendered, have convinced themselves that everyone who crossdresses must be as well. Perhaps Asche has hit the nail on the head by the following quote a while back

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"... because the only socially acceptable way to dress in women-only clothing or to take on any other characteristic that society deems "feminine" is to be a woman, men who aren't social refuseniks like me will tend to frame it as in some sense being a woman, and feel they have to become a woman (if only in their imagination) in order to allow themselves to do it.....

What I mainly wish for is that people would simply keep an open mind. Just because it looks to you like a man wants to be a woman (or be taken for one), or like a boy wants to be a girl, doesn't necessarily mean that that is what is going on. Sometimes a pretty dress is just a pretty dress."

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Veronica

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

Does anyone else find it amusing that a non-CD male who stays home with the children, does the lion's share of the housework, goes grocery shopping, cries while watching old movies, prefers to let his wife drive when they go places, and doesn't hog the remote is not "crossing gender expression lines;" but another guy who is in every other way a stereotypical male, yet likes to put on a dress now and then to get off, is considered a gender rebel. :)

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yeah I'd be concerned if I was his wife. 'is my husband gay?'
I preferred to let my wife drive, see what happened!

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

yeah I'd be concerned if I was his wife. 'is my husband gay?'
I preferred to let my wife drive, see what happened!

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That was an 'and' in my list, not an 'or'.

You're young though. You probably don't remember the days when chores had gender.

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

That was an 'and' in my list, not an 'or'.

You're young though. You probably don't remember the days when chores had gender.

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You mean like when a batman ironed a general's uniform, prepared his breakfast and so on?

Or were you thinking of when menservants dressed their "master", tidied his room and so on?

Both of these things happened commonly during my lietime and no-one would have accused those people of doing "women's chores"

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

That was an 'and' in my list, not an 'or'.

You're young though. You probably don't remember the days when chores had gender.

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sophie you are right...chores used to have gender...not all chores as rianna points out, but many were stereotypically feminine...
but today chores really don't have gender...its not a cross gender thing for a guy to be mr mom anymore..its just not..

you are mixing up gender roles and expression of gender... churning the butter may have been women's work, but she didn't do it to express her womanhood...that was done the same way as today..often by dressing in a typical way that other women did..

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Originally Posted by Veronica27

There are men who reflect far more of what society deems to be feminine, in their everyday life, than do most men. However, regardless of this fact, they consider themselves to be male, and nobody would challenge them as being transgendered. Their interests are primarily feminine in nature, they often engage in feminine style occupations, they do not suppress the expression of their emotions, and they often show a disdain for many of the more stereotypical male activities such as sports, home repairs, cars and so on. Some idiots may call them names, or poke fun at them, but they are rarely thought of as being transgendered.

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[SIZE="2"]The quoted text describes me very well. I am living proof that you can be a crossdresser, but not be transgendered. I would not insult TG’s by saying I’m transgendered – I’m just an ordinary CD (or TV, to be more accurate), since it is more about dressing and less about gender. Perhaps the term “trans-dressing” would be better, since “cross-gender” also does not describe what I do, or how I feel. I am compelled to dress, but I identify as a male. For me, there is no confusion about it – I’m not female, I’m never going to be female, and, if there was “a pill,” or a “genie with three wishes,” or a way to go back and start all over again, I would still wish to be a male, albeit an effeminate male who dresses in female clothing. It’s all about the DRESSING, so please refer to me as a crossdresser, OK? Better still, just call me Freddy…
:battingeyelashes: [/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Rianna Humble

You mean like when a batman ironed a general's uniform, prepared his breakfast and so on?

Or were you thinking of when menservants dressed their "master", tidied his room and so on?

Both of these things happened commonly during my lietime and no-one would have accused those people of doing "women's chores"

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I'm talking about the house where I grew up. We didn't have menservants. We had Mom, and she had my four sisters to help her with chores when she needed help, but I was not expected to wash dishes, clean house, or even make my own bed. I had my chores--feeding the dogs and taking out the garbage--and when I was 12, I started going to work with my dad, learning a trade in construction. My dad never changed a diaper, never made the bed, never washed dishes, nor did anything that looked like "woman's work."

^ Sophie, my father didn't either. He didn't have to because my mom was home. But my husband did, and my sons do. They have to because they are single .. they really do their own cooking, laundry, clean their own bathrooms, in fact one of my sons is well on his way to becoming an excellent cook! And I can't see them become couch potatoes when they get married to women who also have jobs. Times have changed. :)

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

I'm talking about the house where I grew up. We didn't have menservants. We had Mom, and she had my four sisters to help her with chores when she needed help, but I was not expected to wash dishes, clean house, or even make my own bed. I had my chores--feeding the dogs and taking out the garbage--and when I was 12, I started going to work with my dad, learning a trade in construction. My dad never changed a diaper, never made the bed, never washed dishes, nor did anything that looked like "woman's work."

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thats cause men cant handle REAL work! : P

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

I'm talking about the house where I grew up. We didn't have menservants. We had Mom, and she had my four sisters to help her with chores when she needed help, but I was not expected to wash dishes, clean house, or even make my own bed. I had my chores--feeding the dogs and taking out the garbage--and when I was 12, I started going to work with my dad, learning a trade in construction. My dad never changed a diaper, never made the bed, never washed dishes, nor did anything that looked like "woman's work."

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That may have been the case in your household, but I would no more make a universal case out of what happened in my household when I was growing up than you should from yours. For contrast - all the children in my family regardless of natal sex were expected to do the housework and cook meals when appropriate. The school I went to in the 60s and early 70s was regarded across Europe as being a model of excellence, but there the girls did metalwork alongside the boys and the boys did cookery and sewing alongside the girls.

There are always exceptions to any generality. The fact, which any history book will reveal, is that for most of the twentieth century, (up until close to 1970), in western society, mom stayed home and dad was the income earner. Exceptions existed, of course, such as war time, death of a spouse, illness and so on, but in my childhood, the 1940's through to late 1950's, it was not expected that I would do any housework. I was taught how to do all the household repairs, painting, gardening and so on, and the burden of much of that fell on me when my father became ill and my older siblings had left home. At school, boys were given shop classes, while girls were given home economics classes. There was no exception to this.

The gender roles may not exist today, to the same extent as they did back then, but they still exist. Much of it has to do with the social graces, but attempts are being made to break down those as well. I am referring here to the man paying the expenses of the date, holding doors for the lady, proposing, walking on the outside, pulling out the chair at the table etc. etc. All of this blurring of the gender lines has in fact led to the separation of gender lines in other more subtle ways. Women's clothing has become much more provocative than it was in years gone by which can be interpreted as a way of emphasizing their womanhood as much as the changing of moral values. Men in prior times did not have to concern themselves as much with their manhood as we find today, because it was defined by their role in life. We now find more men trying to prove their machismo by their attitudes and leisure activities than ever before. Six pack abs and sexual prowess were matters that nobody cared about sixty years ago, but tune into any sitcom today, and they define the male role model. Jim Anderson has gone the way of the dodo.

But the basic argument here is that gender roles do exist, and gender identification is much more than simply what we happen to wear. In fact the blurring of the gender line has happened to a greater extent in appearance than in other areas. Dressing in women's clothing is not in itself any indication of being transgendered.

Veronica

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I'm saying that a CD who crosses one of the gender boundaries (the gender expression), is "trans"gender (a.k.a. crossing a gender (expression) boundary).

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This comment sounds to me to be saying that it is possible to be transgender without any particular intent to "cross a gender boundary." One's actual intent doesn't matter, only what other people infer from one's behavior.

As I see it, the terms "transgender" and "crossdressing" seem to make sense when you're only thinking about crossdressers as society is used to thinking about them -- men who spend some of their free time dressing up "as women", using female names, calling each other "girls," and generally acting out their idea of what being female means.

They make less sense and are less useful when dealing with men/boys who don't fit that picture of "crossdressing," but may do some things or act in some ways that we think of as exclusive to women/girls.

But I see a lot of people at CD.com and elsewhere insisting on shoving people into one box or another -- if you're not "cisgender" enough, then it's into the "transgender" box with you. They're like the little boy I ran into on a train about 40 years ago who looked at my (relatively!) long hair and asked "are you a hippy?" And then announced, heedless of anything I'd said, "you're a hippy!" and walked off, happy that he'd found a box to put me in.

It reminds me of the reports that crop up every now and then in the press of little boys who like to wear dresses or play with dolls. Even when they announce to the adults "I'm a boy!", as if they must be stupid not to have figured it out without asking, people still assume that they want to be a girl, or are at least confused as to the difference between boys and girls.

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Originally Posted by Asche

It reminds me of the reports that crop up every now and then in the press of little boys who like to wear dresses or play with dolls. Even when they announce to the adults "I'm a boy!", as if they must be stupid not to have figured it out without asking, people still assume that they want to be a girl, or are at least confused as to the difference between boys and girls.

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hhhmm? i probably would have said the same thing. It seemed rather obvious to me for a very long time that I was a boy (ie. male) girls don't have the dangler and there it was! Perhaps the better question from the adults would be "if you could choose to be a boy or a girl, which would it be?" I'm not even sure what i would have answered to this question looking back I can say with some confidence that I was not dysphoric as a child. Yeah, I liked to get in to my moms and sisters clothes and I loved it when my sisters dressed me up but its not like being a boy was horrible for me. Being a "man" was awful though.

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thats cause men cant handle REAL work!

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Gawd i hope your joking!

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But I see a lot of people at CD.com and elsewhere insisting on shoving people into one box or another -- if you're not "cisgender" enough, then it's into the "transgender" box with you.

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Actually it is simplistic and this discussion is complicated by case by case situations.

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Transgender (pronounced /trænzˈdʒɛndər/) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles.
Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex).[1] "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux, but includes:

• "Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."[2]
• "People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."[3]
• "Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."[4]

A transgender individual may have characteristics that are normally associated with a particular gender, identify elsewhere on the traditional gender continuum, or exist outside of it as "other", "agender", "Genderqueer", or "third gender". Transgender people may also identify as bigender, or along several places on either the traditional transgender continuum, or the more encompassing continuums which have been developed in response to the significantly more detailed studies done in recent years.

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Society has said as a whole "We dont really understand why you are different, we just know that you are different"

In order to help describe those of us who are different, the term Transgender was adopted to help understand the gender fluctuation.

So by definition: if you cross any gender role or expectancy in any degree you are considered to be Transgender by those who wish to understand their peers better.
Dont confuse them by taking away a word that gives them further insight to your individuality

-Donni-

^ Ah, but Donni, the CDs in this thread who say they are not transgender will say they feel no ambiguity with their gender identity as it relates to their birth sex. Hence the issue.

We all can only experience things from our own perspective. For example, since I do not live in my best friend's skin, how can I know without a doubt how she feels about some things? I can only imagine how she might feel by comparing how I feel when faced with the same situation.

I propose that a man who CDs knows no other way of being a male, and therefore he imagines that he feels the same way about his gender identity as any male who does not CD. But, if he were to temporarily inhabit the non-CD's mind and body, he might discover a total revulsion for wearing anything that is feminine. Do both these men have the same male-identity?

Just food for thought.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I propose that a man who CDs knows no other way of being a male, and therefore he imagines that he feels the same way about his gender identity as any male who does not CD.

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Well, assuming you consider me to be CDing (some would say yes, some would say no), I would say that it's not true for me.

My "gender identity," to the extent that I can make any sense of the term, consists in (a) realizing that I have a male body and (b) having gone through the usual training program in "being a man." (The trainers can't be blamed for how poorly it took :) ) If I woke up tomorrow in a female body, I think I'd feel like I'm still the same person (though having a different body would take some getting used to.) Once I got used to it, I'd probably say my gender identity was female.

However, I can see that "being a man" means a lot more to most men, and I know that they feel that there's this thing called "masculinity" which they're always trying to find or worry about losing, which I assume this is somehow connected with gender identity. And based on their reaction to being contaminated with anything "feminine," I think they'd rather die than become female. So I figure, yes, they have a different sense of "gender identity" from me.

Interesting thread....not chiming in because I don't think there is much I can add. Very enlightening reading though...

I guess for me, the gender expression is an important part of the equation and has been that way for as long as I can recall, way before puberty ever set in for sure. I guess that would put me in the transgendered camp.

There is more than one way to be a man, but only one categorical way to be a cisman. Men who dress like Strawberry Shortcake for a hobby are too sweet to be cismen. They have no manly peers who don't crossdress and who self-identify with them. Their only potential peers are other men who crossdress. So, will the real cismen please stand up? If you have to smooth out your skirt when you leave your chair then you should definitely sit back down.

Transgender people come in different stripes but they all have stripes. They range from multiple types of transmen to multiple types of transwomen. Being transgender is about being something and not being something else. The something else that transgender people are not is cismasculine cismales or cisfeminine cisfemales. All other grades of sex and gender combination that don't involve these four attributes are possible. Some transmen were born with female genitals. Some transmen were born with male genitals, like to wear prom dresses, and give long boring speeches about how trivial their dresses are compared to the significant dresses worn by real women. It's still possible to be a transman in this sense (using the last word loosely).

This framework allows the crossdressing transmen who were born with certain male parts to keep their transmanhood that is a close approximation of cismanhood, but is not equivalent to it. It also allows the transsexual transmen who were born with certain female parts to keep their special category that is also a close approximation of cismanhood, but isn't equivalent to it. The fact that the (relatively) opposite sexes can occupy similar (but not the same) positions in the transgender range gives another dimension of meaning to the word transgender that isn't but should be more widely acknowledged.

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The fact that the opposite sexes can occupy similar positions in the transgender range gives another dimension of meaning to the word transgender that isn't but should be more widely acknowledged.

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And out of the mouth of madness spews forth the truth.

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^ Ah, but Donni, the CDs in this thread who say they are not transgender will say they feel no ambiguity with their gender identity as it relates to their birth sex. Hence the issue.

We all can only experience things from our own perspective. For example, since I do not live in my best friend's skin, how can I know without a doubt how she feels about some things? I can only imagine how she might feel by comparing how I feel when faced with the same situation.

I propose that a man who CDs knows no other way of being a male, and therefore he imagines that he feels the same way about his gender identity as any male who does not CD. But, if he were to temporarily inhabit the non-CD's mind and body, he might discover a total revulsion for wearing anything that is feminine. Do both these men have the same male-identity?

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One does not have to feel Transgender to be Transgender. Transgender is a descriptive of both who we feel we are but also can be a descriptive based on what we do. Wearing clothes of the opposite sex is crossing a gender role.

If that said CD who does not think he is TG was wearing a dress that was manufactured and sold in the stores exclusively as a mans dress (im not talking about kilts) then i could see where they would argue the fact. But actively knowing that you are wearing a article of clothing that was designed for women IS crossing a gender variance. By exercising that personal style they are considered to be Transgender by definition. No matter how they feel about it

Good morning,
-Donni-

^ I didn't quite understand what Pink Person was saying either, but although it is unconventional, I can see where the literal term "transman" could apply to both natal genders if it is understood that "transsexual transmen" are FtM and and "CDing transmen" are MtF CDers. Both are men, and both are crossing gender boundaries. (Transitioned MtF TSs also use the same word as birth females when they call themselves women.)

But, to prevent confusion, I think it's best to use two different terms altogether: transmen for FtM, and CD for CDing males (although most people do believe that CD falls within the TG umbrella).

Pink Person, I think you will continue to confuse people using the same term for both. That's not saying the community might not alter the terms down the line, but for now I think it's best to stick to the WPATH definitions, if you want people to understand who you refer to when you use the term "transman".

Why complicate things?

transman = Female to male transexual
transwoman = male to female transexual

Why would a transman crossdress? Most TS would rather die than wear the clothing of their birth sex. not because it has anything to do with clothes but the clothes imply gender. For someone who is trying desperately to cross that difficult divide and aline their bodies with their minds often times the clothes, especially early on, are the only way to really get the outside world to "see" your internal gender and therefore socialize with you accordingly

What CDers choose to do with the term "crossdresser" is up to them. Frankly the prefix M2F in front of the CD label is pretty unnecessary since F2M crossdressers are as rare as hens teeth. Crossdresser implies a male dressed as a woman.

You can absolutely CD and not be TG. I love dressing up in women's clothing, but I do not have any desire to be a woman. I love being a man, and wouldn't change that, but I also love dressing up.

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Originally Posted by ilovepanties

You can absolutely CD and not be TG. I love dressing up in women's clothing, but I do not have any desire to be a woman. I love being a man, and wouldn't change that, but I also love dressing up.

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TS = "desire" to be a woman
TG = umbrella term used to lump us all together

its getting annoying that people think TG = TS

Just so know one gets thrown to the wolves...

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trans(space)man = Female to male transexual
trans(space)woman = male to female transexual

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Ive been yelled at before, so i am just passing the knowledge, not trying to be a jerk

-Donni-

p.s.

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its getting annoying that people think TG = TS

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Me too April...

I found this rather disgusting definition of "cisgender" as one of 3 descriptions on a website called "urban dictionary".

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"cisgendered
a word created by an attention whoring, douche bag, drama queen which describes how the majority of people view their own sexual identity. often used as a pejorative against normal people by fat, ugly gender studies majors who are so absolutely f***ing dull that they must create interesting aspects of their personalities such as identifying as gender-queer or developing an eating disorder."

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My point in posting this is not to inflame or disparage anyone for their views, but simply to emphasize that there is no real definition for the word other than that it means you are not transgendered. In other words it does not describe what anyone is, just what they are not, and there are multiple opinions about it. Transgender, by definition refers to the expression gender identity. Gender Identity is dependant upon the definitions of the words gender and identity. Gender is dependant upon the whims of the culture at any point in time, and gender identity is our intrinsic sense of being male, female or a combination. Intrinsic means belonging to a thing by its very nature.

The convoluted nature of all of this means that any discussion about anything to do with TG, CD etc. is totally dependant upon the meaning and interpretation that you are placing upon each and every one of those terms. The highly subjective nature of them renders most arguments meaningless as nobody knows the thoughts and feelings of others, and any opinions thereon are purely speculative. Since cisgender is at the top of that chain of highly subjective definitions it has no actual meaning beyond the intentions of the user.

So the question posed by Pink Person "So, will the real cismen please stand up?" would likely result in virtually everyone remaining seated, as there is no such thing except in the mind of the questioner. The proper question should be "All those who identify solely as male please stand up." All males but those who believe in their mind that they are transgendered, would pop right up.

Veronica

"The word has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis, meaning "to/this the near side" as in the cis-trans distinction in chemistry, or in the ancient Roman term "Cisalpine Gaul", i.e., "Gaul on this side of the Alps". In the case of gender, however, "cis" refers to the alignment of gender identity with assigned gender." wikipedia

So its not something some "gender studies nerd" pulled out of his or her ass. This is how words get made this is how we assign meaning to them.
It doesn't do us any good to ask each individual how he or she "feels" about a particular word. No one cares how you "feel" about the word "room" we all agree that it means an enclosed space. The "room" could be a banquet hall or a walk in closet so there is a lot of ambiguity to the word room until other words are added to the sentence to clarify and further define the meaning. Context maters as well. If I walk into a motel office and ask for a "room" there need not be a discussion about what kind of room I want beyond wether said room has a king or 2 queens.

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Originally Posted by ilovepanties

You can absolutely CD and not be TG. I love dressing up in women's clothing, but I do not have any desire to be a woman. I love being a man, and wouldn't change that, but I also love dressing up.

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If by "be" you mean transition, that has nothing to do with transgendered as being discussed. Although transsexuality points are introduced for clarity's sake in making points, we are talking about CDers who do not wish to transition. I do not wish to transition, yet I am TG.

Lea

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

"The word has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis, meaning "to/this the near side" as in the cis-trans distinction in chemistry, or in the ancient Roman term "Cisalpine Gaul", i.e., "Gaul on this side of the Alps". In the case of gender, however, "cis" refers to the alignment of gender identity with assigned gender." wikipedia

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Not to nitpick, but the meaning of "cis" which you reference above "the near side of" or "this side of" would tend to imply that a cisgendered male, was a little on the TG side of pure male. Some of the references that I have looked up, have stated that the origin of "cis" was Greek as opposed to Latin, but I will not argue that as I do not know which is correct.

Also, I cannot argue with most of what you describe about words, except to say that with a subjective definition, how one "feels" becomes a part of the context. Just as we need to know the type of room, the furnishings, whether or not it is adjoining, smoking, balconied, large, small etc., we also need to know the context in which all the gender words are being used. I think that a lack of clarity causes much of the debate in threads like this.

Veronica

To be clear, Mother Nature created transgender variety, not me. If you are a man who is transgender then you are a transman. Since there is more than one way to be a man who is transgender, there is more than one way to be a transman.

If some male crossdressers weren't prone to such ridiculous fits of self-deception and delusions about their gender status and social status then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Their masculinity and their masculine behavior are very meaningful, they claim. Their femininity and their feminine behavior are very meaningless, they also claim out of the other side of their mouths. Both gender types and gender behaviors are meaningful or both are meaningless. If they are both meaningful then you are transgender. If they are both meaningless (to you and no one else) then you are still transgender because your opinion on the subject is beyond the rational comprehension and experience of anyone who has ever lived. You only make sense to yourself. You are a nonsensical army of one.

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If you are a man who is transgender then you are a transman.

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Incorrect

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The term trans man refers to female-to-male (FtM or F2M) transgender people, and trans woman refers to male-to-female (MtF or M2F) transgender people.

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A transvestite is somebody who cross-dresses.[37][38] The term "transvestite" is used as a synonym for the term "cross-dresser",[39][40] although "cross-dresser" is generally considered the preferred term

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"Transgender man" is an umbrella term that may include anybody who was assigned the female sex at birth but identifies as male.

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If some male crossdressers weren't prone to such ridiculous fits of self-deception and delusions about their social status then we wouldn't be having this conversation

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Some would also say that if some male crossdressers took five-ten minutes researching what these common definitions really meant and why, this conversation would go on with a lot less egotistical assumptions.

Crossdresser and Transvestite are the same thing.

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A transvestite is somebody who cross-dresses.[37][38] The term "transvestite" is used as a synonym for the term "cross-dresser",[39][40] although "cross-dresser" is generally considered the preferred term

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Good Morning Again,
-Donni-

In order to have a lie, there must be a truth. What we have been dealing with in all of these discussions is opinion, which is much different than truth. I do not project my opinions on anyone and simply derive them from introspection about my personal situation, and my understanding of the terminology involved. You consider your opinions to be truths and try to impose them upon everyone else. My only reason for challenging them is to hopefully prevent others from mistakenly taking them as gospel, and to provide them with some food for thought to enable them to arrive at their own conclusions.

Veronica

You say my definition of transman is incorrect, I say your definition is incomplete. You are correct but not completely correct.

I was only trying to help some poor souls rescue their false pride. I don't want to open a debate on terminology because it is still evolving in some areas. The basic gender concepts are settled issues though and they apply to this discussion.

Thanks for the response anyway.

P.S. I think I used the word delusion correctly. Let's take a vote.

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Originally Posted by bridgetta

.. labels and definitions are the bane of the crossdresser..lol

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And to TS's, TV's, all of them!

In my opinion, at least the way I look at it since I don't like definitions (who made them and who says they are right) but I don't look at TG as an unbrella term or a spectrum. Rather, I look at Gender as simply one spectrum that everyone is under. At the ends you have strictly men and women and everything else falls between somwhere. :)

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Originally Posted by Soriya

I don't look at TG as an unbrella term or a spectrum. Rather, I look at Gender as simply one spectrum

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IOW: I reject your definition and trump it with my delusion

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

TS = "desire" to be a woman
TG = umbrella term used to lump us all together

its getting annoying that people think TG = TS

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Transcontinental doesn't equal transoceanic either. However, a person who knows the definition of 'transoceanic' and 'continental' will assume he also knows the definition of 'transcontinental'. That is what is happening with transsexual and transgender, and it's why even people who know the official definition of transgender still shy away from the word. A transsexual wants to be the opposite sex, ergo a transgender person must be someone who wants to be the opposite gender. You cannot stop people from reaching that conclusion. It's in the etymology of the words. Why not just pick a different word to be the umbrella term, one that acknowledges and respects the difficulty that crossdressers have with being called transgender? Why insist that they're just being silly? Why treat them like retrograde morons? What's the point of insisting on this problematic, controversial term?

:wall:

Labels and definitions are the bane of everyone and everything. We naturally slot other people into them ( it's how our brains work!) while declinging to be constrained by them ourselves!

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

A transsexual wants to be the opposite sex, ergo a transgender person must be someone who wants to be the opposite gender. You cannot stop people from reaching that conclusion. It's in the etymology of the words. Why not just pick a different word to be the umbrella term, one that acknowledges and respects the difficulty that crossdressers have with being called transgender? Why insist that they're just being silly? Why treat them like retrograde morons? What's the point of insisting on this problematic, controversial term?

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The fallacy starts with your definition of transsexual, we don't want to be anything other than at one with our identity.

A transsexual crosses the divide from their natal sex to their true gender (and doesn't want to go back).

A transgender person crosses the divide between the genders. The difference is that this crossing does not have to be permanent.

Categories by definition are Work In Progress... they satisfy the current level of knowledge. As we move forward with more knowledge, categories will be challenged, and this is the nature of learning and knowledge creation. We use to think the Earth was flat... Ok some still do, but the growing body of opinion is otherwise. We have also accepted that the universe is expanding from a fixed point (the big bang) - this is based on available data. We have just discovered that Homo Sapiens may have co-existed with Neanderthals for thousands of years... this changes our perceptions.

There are few fixed points... a true learner accepts that these may change. But we use them to orientate current knowledge. When data conflicts with the fixed point and/or established/recieved wisdom, then we have to challenge our underlying models and beliefs...

For everyone else there is self-delusion and fundamentalist religions.

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Originally Posted by Veronica27

I think that a lack of clarity causes much of the debate in threads like this.

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I think, as Donni pointed out, that a lack of the ability to use google or perhaps the willingness to do so is more to blame than a lack of clarification.
I didn't make up the term "transgender" but the person who did did so to create a word that could be used to describe the "community" (I use that term loosely) of gender variant individuals. Personally I couldn't give a shit less about it. I'm not a political person and when my transition is as physically complete as I can achieve my mental, emotional and spiritual transition will continue with me as a woman.

I really don't see why the term transgender, as an umbrella term for all of us, is such a problem for some. Just because you cross a gender line doesn't mean you can't come back. Gender is NOT sex. I have met 'trans-SEXUALS" who have done very little to "trans-GENDER". To me they seemed like dudes with pussies, Im not judging, just saying if they hadn't told me they had had SRS I would have thought they were just CDers. I have met CDers who are very convincing and quite cute all dolled up and even change their voices pretty well which is not easy to do if you are not full time! i have met individual who were hard to gauge, my guess is they were long term full timers perhaps on hormones perhaps not. what we all have in common is that we trans-GENDER to some degree or another, we look, act, dress, talk, etc. like the gender other than the one we were assigned at birth and were subsequently raised as. Whether one goes back and forth or one chooses to stay is immaterial

I feel many people are mixing up terms. Transgender is an umbrella term and cross dressers most definitely fall under it. Many people are mixing up transgender with transexualism. The definition of transgender is "Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these.". This makes cross dressers, transexuals, androgynous, genderqueer, etc all transgender. I feel many people are just afraid of the word transgender and want to justify why they do something, while avoiding the label. The truth is by the current definition and I understand definitions change all the time, but the current definition of transgender, makes cross dressers an area under the transgender umbrella.

Sorry all you deniers... Haters gonna hate :3

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Originally Posted by Rianna Humble

The fallacy starts with your definition of transsexual, we don't want to be anything other than at one with our identity.

A transsexual crosses the divide from their natal sex to their true gender (and doesn't want to go back).

A transgender person crosses the divide between the genders. The difference is that this crossing does not have to be permanent. (Emphasis added.)

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But there is nothing in the form of the words to indicate that difference. That's the whole point! It's not that I don't believe you when you say that some group of academics have decided that this will be the definition of the word, it's that I don't think that's how the word is commonly understood. Why can't there be an umbrella term that doesn't require me to explain to people that it doesn't mean what they think it means?

ADDENDUM: Some of you just aren't LISTENING. You keep repeating that "official definition" over and over again like that should be the end of the discussion. We know the official definition, okay? Can you stop quoting it long enough to try to understand what we're saying?

^ Sophie, then your main objection is, if you tell someone you are transgender they might misconstrue this and believe you want to be a woman?

Keep in mind, you don't have to get into any details with the muggles and you can continue to refer to yourself as crossdresser. But, the first question most people ask is still, "Do you want to be a woman?" followed closely with, "Do you like men?" People outside the community understand very little about the nuances, so I really don't think it matters what word you use. If they want to learn more, then you can get into it all: transgender as an umbrella term, the three components of gender, the difference between CD (a mismatch between two of the compoments) & TS (a mismatch between all three components), and the fact that sexual preference is not necessarily tied to gender, etc.

Some people will be fascinated with all of this. :)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

^ Sophie, then your main objection is, if you tell someone you are transgender they might misconstrue this and believe you want to be a woman?

Keep in mind, you don't have to get into any details with the muggles and you can continue to refer to yourself as crossdresser. But, the first question most people ask is still, "Do you want to be a woman?" followed closely with, "Do you like men?" People outside the community understand very little about the nuances, so I really don't think it matters what word you use. If they want to learn more, then you can get into it all: transgender as an umbrella term, the three components of gender, the difference between CD (a mismatch between two of the compoments) & TS (a mismatch between all three components), and the fact that sexual preference is not necessarily tied to gender, etc.

Some people will be fascinated with all of this. :)

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It's true that some explanation will be needed regardless. (In my experience, they ask whether you're gay first, and then whether you want to be a woman. :) )

It caused my wife some initial concern when I used the word 'transgender' to describe myself. I had to explain to her that it doesn't mean what it appears to mean. Fortunately, she's accepting of my crossdressing, and she trusts what I tell her about it. Not all CDs are that lucky, and I wonder if there is a difference in how their wives would respond to a CD Support Group vs a TG Support Group. Perhaps you should ask the ladies in FAB how they respond to the term 'transgender', and whether it puts them off? Do they prefer to think of their husbands as CD?

And thanks for being someone who has listened. :)

This is a great point, Ayame. I don't understand why some people worry about terms like this, but I am a crossdresser and I am therefore transgender. And if the original question meant can you be a crossdresser without being a transexual, the answer is yes, because I am not a woman trapped in a man's body, I am a crossdressing male, and am not attracted to other men. I am quite happy with that, and so is my girlfriend.