Male lesbians

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Originally Posted by Melody Moore

Sophie, being accepted into a lesbian community is not easy

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Being accepted as a friend by individual lesbians is very easy. I've never had a problem with that.

I'm not interested in being accepted by a community--I like friends who are individuals--and I'm certainly not trying to be accepted by lesbians as a lesbian. If you're imagining me going into a lesbian bar and hitting on the girls there on the pretense that 'hey, I'm a lesbian too,' then you've let your imagination get the better of you. Nothing like that was ever suggested. I totally get that lesbians like women, and that a woman who would be attracted to a crossdresser would have to be either straight, bi, bi-curious, heteroflexible, or pansexual.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Words are important Sophie, especially in a forum like this one where there are so many different subsections of the community. I think it's important for people to agree on at least a few basic terms, if only to avoid battles like this in the future.

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It wasn't being used as a term. It's just a humorous way of saying that we like to dress as girls, but we still fancy women. Period.

And no one has explained to me yet why they find the phrase personally offensive.

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Originally Posted by Melody Moore

Well said Reine, it is nice to see that someone gets it ;)

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So if they agree with you, they get it? LOL

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Originally Posted by Melody Moore

The bottom line is lesbians don't usually want anything to do with someone that has a penis
or is male even just for a smidgen of even the tiniest part of their lives. The minute a lesbian
sees the male side of a trans-woman it is all over.

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Interesting remarks. What lesbian organization appointed you as their spokeswoman? My GG SO and I were chatting with a lesbian couple at a bar a few months ago. One of them remarked how lucky my GG was to have a feminine partner yet with a real penis. Her GF agreed strongly. Make of it what you will.

For me, this entire thread is a silly semantics argument. We all know a lesbian is female, hence the prefix "male". Who really cares? How does it affect your life if someone calls himself that? Are you afraid it will diminish the power of the word lesbian? Find a bigger hill to die on.

PS: I have a surprisingly large number of GG lesbians on my facebook page. Makes you go hmmm...

PPS: Speaking of FB pages, someone claiming to have been "accepted into the lesbian community" (I'd love to know that process) has marked their profile as being interested in men and women. I wonder if her "sisters" know she likes penis too.

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by ReineD But, to refuse to engage in a discussion about what things mean by saying they are all just labels I'm afraid is burying one's head in the sand.

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Since I posted four times on this thread I'm hardly refusing to engage in a discussion. :) I'm just offering my viewpoint and that is that there is such a disagreement on what the terms mean to begin with that how anyone would develop an accepted consensus is what I was asking and who is in charge of the defining? I've never said words are "just" labels. I think labels are hardly "just" anything and burying my head in the sand is rather offensive to me as if you read my posts I shared how much pain I've felt from being the target of "just labels". Hardly burying anything.

I responded initially as I love Eddie find his approach to things resonates so well with me. I think it's interesting that he is a member of a community yet others take exception to how he himself defines himself. Who has any say over that? Because he is a CD he doesn't represent the way others feel he should? I have only been on this site a week and have seen a wide range of feelings and experiences that are vastly different.

I have ADHD as well and don't fit the description that mother gave. Two of my little ones have it and are polar opposites in how they act :D. I'm part French as well but love French Toast ;). I very much enjoy discussions and have no desire to offend. Just sharing my view. I also feel comedy is much different than a serious term thrown at someone. I've been the victim of DV and volunteer. I take it very seriously yet have laughed at jokes about it. When you can laugh at something it removes it's power, at least to me. I do know everyone reacts differently.

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

It wasn't being used as a term. It's just a humorous way of saying that we like to dress as girls, but we still fancy women. Period.

And no one has explained to me yet why they find the phrase personally offensive.

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That's pretty much how I have taken the male lesbian thing to mean. Nothing deep, dark or imposing.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Jody, you know I respect you immensely, but :wall: :D

The OP asked how people feel about the term!

The term "male lesbian" is touted all over the forum, not just in this thread. Of course some people will have strong opinions about this especially since the term not only defines sexual preference, it defines core gender ID. Why shouldn't members give their opinions after having been asked to? :p

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Haha! I understand the frustration and I'm not trying to discourage opinions. Anytime I see the term, I chuckle a little because it's so contradictory of itself. I see the term used often here, but to my recollection it's almost always used in a lighthearted way. I don't think anybody seriously believes they are a "male lesbian." I could be wrong of course, (it's just my take on it)

I guess I just don't really understand why it is seen as offensive.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

no because the term "gay" is correct for both male and female. Such as gay woman and gay man.

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haha.. I know.. i was just trying to divert the conversation again, but it seems to go on and on. Generally, we address all cd's as she, but here one of the TS, apart from addressing Sophie as "he", goes on to claim superiority over all other cd's and suggests butch girls will eat Sophie up. If one cannot argue on an issue without making personal attacks, then they should stop (or be stopped from) posting comments.

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

It wasn't being used as a term. It's just a humorous way of saying that we like to dress as girls, but we still fancy women. Period.

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

Haha! I understand the frustration and I'm not trying to discourage opinions. Anytime I see the term, I chuckle a little because it's so contradictory of itself. I see the term used often here, but to my recollection it's almost always used in a lighthearted way. I don't think anybody seriously believes they are a "male lesbian."

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I second (third?) both of these statements. If the term under dispute has the Eddie Izzard seal of approval, it can't be all bad.

And for all its "contradictoriness", it really describes the way I see myself much better than most other terms out there (even though I like the sound of "dreemian"). And if its use disturbs some folks here or elsewhere, well, in the words of John Lennon (who would've been 71 today!), "you'll just have to carry on".

OMG people lighten up! who cares if some CDers want to call them selves male lesbians? the only people who will get it are other CDers so what difference does it make? jeesh!

Look, u can ALL yourself whatever u like! Want to call yourself a white, black person? Or, a pregnant virgin? U CAN! I could care less! But, OTHERS may not understand!

If u want to use words that others will understand, try using the dictionary!

According to Webster:

Male- "Pertaining to the sex that begets young, as distinguished from female."

Lesbian- "Addicted the unnatural vice attributed to Sappho". Which means women who have sex with other women, I believe?

So, if u can yourself a "male lesbian", I'm assuming u mean:
"If I was born female, I'd be a lesbian". Or, "After I have SRS, I'll be a lesbian".

But, don't be surprised if ANYONE ELSE thinks your GAY if u say that! Cause that's what Webster thinks!

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Originally Posted by Ellepet

Since I posted four times on this thread I'm hardly refusing to engage in a discussion. :) I'm just offering my viewpoint and that is that there is such a disagreement on what the terms mean to begin with that how anyone would develop an accepted consensus is what I was asking and who is in charge of the defining? I've never said words are "just" labels.

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I'm just so used to some members in this forum dismissing any dialogue about definitions by saying, "WHO CARES, THEY'RE JUST LABELS!!" and then they leave the thread, that I become weary when I see the word "label" being thrown around. I should have read your post more carefully and I'm sorry. :p

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Originally Posted by Ellepet

I very much enjoy discussions and have no desire to offend. Just sharing my view.

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If I gave you the impression I was offended, again I'm sorry. I'm not and you're welcome to share your views. Welcome to the forum! :)

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

And no one has explained to me yet why they find the phrase personally offensive.

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

I see the term used often here, but to my recollection it's almost always used in a lighthearted way. I don't think anybody seriously believes they are a "male lesbian." I could be wrong of course, (it's just my take on it)

I guess I just don't really understand why it is seen as offensive.

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If it's said in jest and no one takes it seriously, then it's OK. It is as someone mentioned earlier, an oxymoron. It's also OK if it is said by a CD to his GG partner and they both agree to have fun pretending they are lesbians in the bedroom. But if you comb the forum (or perhaps read as many posts as I do), you'll see there are quite a few CDs who say they are lesbian (if they are married, I wonder if their wives are aware of this), and there is no indication in their posts they are making a joke.

So ... either they are lost in a fantasy or they are mistaken as to what the word "lesbian" means.

I suppose if there were only CDs in the forum there would be no harm in having hetero CDs identify themselves as lesbian, but GGs read these threads as well (who might wonder if their husbands identify the same way and then wonder if their husbands identify as women and will eventually want to transition). TSs also read this forum and I dare say they take the matter more seriously since they do need to move mountains (compared to the average CD) in order to be accepted in our society as the women they feel they are internally. They feel they've earned the right to say they are lesbian after having transitioned, and honestly I can't say that I blame them. So, to have a male who enjoys using his penis say the same thing kinda negates what they went through, if you can try to understand this.

In terms of what is offensive, I'm not a lesbian but if I were I think I might be offended if a man with a penis were to classify himself the same as me. Just guessing about this, but it does make sense. As a woman I know I do get offended by some parodies of women in the gay community, and a man calling himself a lesbian isn't all that far removed from the same sentiment. Or someone who calls himself a chick with a dick, or a *******. I don't know why I find it offensive, I just do.

That said, personally I understand why a CD might like to think of himself as a male lesbian but it is important to note this is a fantasy and not the reality. And at the same time, I am aware of some people who find it offensive. So it is always a good idea in any diverse community, to be aware that when something is offensive to certain members of the community, then to just stop doing it. This is being sensitive to others.

Here's an analogy: when my kids were little, one of the hardest lessons to teach them was to believe their brothers when they said, "Stop". "Stop tickling me, stop teasing me, stop saying that", etc. The one who tickles and teases is having a good time and sees no harm done, and it is difficult to come to understand and respect when the other has had his fill. It takes an effort, maturity, and self-responsibility to get out of one's own head space and become sensitive to another's.

Another analogy: there was a time when words like coon, nigger, etc were used without any white person thinking they were offensive. Until the other side spoke up. And then there was awareness and the words fell out of favor. In the beginning I suppose the whites who used those words felt the blacks were over-reacting. It took a lot for them to be able to see the other person's point of view.

Reine, You know I respect your opinions, and your posts but, :hd: :D

I do understand what you are saying, but on the other hand, as someone that sees themselves as female on the inside, I'm almost offended by the assumption that an appendage defines gender. I don't truly believe it to be just the appendage so to speak, that defines our gender. I suppose in the confines of crossdressing and the use of "male lesbian" by those that define themselves as men, can be seen as offensive. However, on a site such as this, you have to wonder how many of those that reference this term seriously, are actually correct.

So my question is, would you question this assumption to someone that identifies as trans? Or someone in transition? After all, many of us that are actually transexual, defined ourselves as crossdressers before we realized we were actually a tad more. (I know this is sort of a loaded question) but its meant to be reflective, not confrontational. :)

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

as someone that sees themselves as female on the inside, I'm almost offended by the assumption that an appendage defines gender. I don't truly believe it to be just the appendage so to speak, that defines our gender.

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

So my question is, would you question this assumption to someone that identifies as trans? Or someone in transition? After all, many of us that are actually transexual, defined ourselves as crossdressers before we realized we were actually a tad more.

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I'm not speaking here of TSs who are in the process of transition. I'm speaking of the MtF CD fantasy of being a "Lezzie". A purely sexual fantasy of being a female that is combined with a sexual attraction to females. The CD I am referring to has no intention to switch genders. He likes being a guy. But he really gets off on being a girl with another girl. This does not a lesbian make. :p

Look, I am intersex for a start and for many years I told all my female partners I felt like a lesbian trapped in a male body,
they never once took me seriously, but in my case which is very rare this is exactly how I truly felt and it was true. But still
I couldn't get upset with my partners because they never took me seriously, this was just the reality of how things were.

Yes it hurt me to know they never took me seriously about this, but I also know it was often a comeback line when a guy
asks a woman to have sex and if she declines saying that she is a lesbian, then they usually come back and claim they are
a "Male Lesbian" or a "Lesbian Trapped in a Male Body" for some people it is just a joke, for others it is a fantasy but for me
it was just another fact of life I had to try and deal with. I see difference in how this oxymoron is used and appreciate it
from all perspectives, especially not as just another transvestic sexual fantasy or some stupid comeback line or joke.

The only times I've ever used the term "male lesbian" as a comeback line was when responding gay men who were asking for sex. I deliver it as a polite explanation.

It also works as an explanation for any ladies who might question my being dressed from head to toe in girls clothing, but still being a hetero male. I say it with a smile, and don't intend it as some serious declaration about my sexuality. It seems to help me avoid lengthy conversations about crossdressing when I don't feel like going there.

I'm not one for talking a lady into sex unless I already know her well enough to know she needs a little polite coercion, and enjoys it, as well as the sex. There are billions of women in the world, it's easiest to just find one who is more willing.

Doesn't really mean anything special to me, to be honest. I am familiar with Eddie Izzard and I applaud his courage. A "male lesbian" defines myself and many others: transgendered individuals who are sexually attracted to women.

We may be transgendered but it doesn't necessarily mean that we are not attracted to the gender we relate the most to. In other words, Eddie is trying to point out that not all transgendered males are homosexual.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

If it's said in jest and no one takes it seriously, then it's OK.

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Thank you. Now all we have to do is get these other folks to stop taking it seriously.

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It is as someone mentioned earlier, an oxymoron.

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I'm a guy in a dress. I'm okay with things that seem contradictory on the surface.

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But if you comb the forum (or perhaps read as many posts as I do), you'll see there are quite a few CDs who say they are lesbian (if they are married, I wonder if their wives are aware of this), and there is no indication in their posts they are making a joke.

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You should take that up with them on a case by case basis.

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So ... either they are lost in a fantasy or they are mistaken as to what the word "lesbian" means.

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Or they are just really confused about their gender. I know... that's a bit out there, but it's possible.

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I suppose if there were only CDs in the forum

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Do we have a forum like that?

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but GGs read these threads as well (who might wonder if their husbands identify the same way and then wonder if their husbands identify as women and will eventually want to transition).

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They should take that up with their husbands. I'm sure seeing all these femme pronouns must raise the same question. (Not to mention wearing panties, and bras, and dresses, and high heels...)

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TSs also read this forum and I dare say they take the matter more seriously since they do need to move mountains (compared to the average CD) in order to be accepted in our society as the women they feel they are internally. They feel they've earned the right to say they are lesbian after having transitioned, and honestly I can't say that I blame them. So, to have a male who enjoys using his penis say the same thing kinda negates what they went through, if you can try to understand this.

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But we didn't say the same thing. The phrase under discussion is "male lesbian." Those TSs could also say that they have earned the right to the femme pronouns, and they have earned the right to be called girl, and they could demand that we stop using those also. Frankly, I don't care what they think they've earned the right to, I'm not going to let them dictate what words I'm allowed to use.

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In terms of what is offensive, I'm not a lesbian but if I were I think I might be offended if a man with a penis were to classify himself the same as me.

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As I said above, if I were in a bar trying to pick up lesbian women by arguing that I'm a lesbian too, that would be offensive. Calling myself a 'male lesbian' as a humorous way of explaining my orientation is not.

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So it is always a good idea in any diverse community, to be aware that when something is offensive to certain members of the community, then to just stop doing it. This is being sensitive to others.

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Which is why I keep asking people here to explain why they personally find the word offensive. So far, no one has taken me up on that.

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Another analogy: there was a time when words like coon, nigger, etc were used without any white person thinking they were offensive.

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I think you probably just triggered some corollary of Godwin's Law with that one. :)

Those words are offensive in themselves because of a long history of offensive usage. 'Lesbian' is not an offensive word. What you are objecting to is how it's being used in this context, and there is no consensus on whether that usage is offensive. I've not read of any public outcry over Eddie Izzard making that joke, and other people have offered examples of lesbians reacting with humor to its use. Also, there's a limit to the ability to make unilateral declarations of offensive speech by overly-sensitive subsets of a community. At some point it just becomes ludicrous. :)

A better analogy would be if some pasty-white politician tried to call himself "the first black president." Oh wait, that title was bestowed on him by a black woman, so I guess it's okay.

And since my 'lesbian' title was bestowed on me, humorously, by a woman who is active in the lesbian community, I'm going to wear it with pride. And humor.

Are all your friends this serious in life?

Humor is funny. and not always politically correct. We have spent alot of time and effort debating a term that isnt even seriously used as a definitive label. All this worry over what someone else says or thinks about a phrase that has no real validity, seems like a total waste of effort.

Words are only offensive if you let them be. It is your mindset about what someone else says that makes it offensive to you personally, the best place to make that change is your own self. Dont let things bother you and they wont be an issue for anyone.

-Donni-

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

Those words are offensive in themselves because of a long history of offensive usage. 'Lesbian' is not an offensive word.

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My guess is you missed the last 100 years or more? Especially the last decade or so where epithets that disparage homosexuals are bandied about among certain peer groups. The saying "that is so gay" isn't a compliment. It is a put down. How do you feel about other groups and what they have been called in the past? It doesn't bother you as much because you are in a group that is "entitled". You don't have to worry about that label when you go for a job. You don't have to worry about that label when you leave a bar. Ha Ha Funny!

Before you start on the "I am a TG and part of a minority" part, you can hide that part and you do. Try being a TG 24/7 even if you are not transitioning. Yes, my ox is gored by all this because I look at what may hurt someone.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

My guess is you missed the last 100 years or more? Especially the last decade or so where epithets that disparage homosexuals are bandied about among certain peer groups. The saying "that is so gay" isn't a compliment. It is a put down. How do you feel about other groups and what they have been called in the past? It doesn't bother you as much because you are in a group that is "entitled". You don't have to worry about that label when you go for a job. You don't have to worry about that label when you leave a bar. Ha Ha Funny!

Before you start on the "I am a TG and part of a minority" part, you can hide that part and you do. Try being a TG 24/7 even if you are not transitioning. Yes, my ox is gored by all this because I look at what may hurt someone.

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The above has as much relation to what we're talking about as if the phrase under question were "frying pan."

And to this specifically....

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The saying "that is so gay" isn't a compliment. It is a put down.

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Duh.

Yet, that has nothing to do with me saying in a humorous vein that as a CD I'm a male lesbian.

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Originally Posted by Cynthia Anne

You can call me anything you want! Even a dreemian! All I know is that I love the same things that lesbians love!:D:hugs:

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I like this. People seems to get so caught up on finding that one words that defines what they are. I just recently succumed to the temptations of the Sims. I'd avoided it, for years. Listening to fake digital people speak in a fake, nonsensical language, can be quite refreshing. You have to listen to the way they say things and the gestures they make, in order to capture their meaning (the thought bubbles help, too, of course). The words are the least important element in Sims communication. This goes to show that words are only as meaningful as we want them to be. With that in mind, I've decided on the one word that defines me: Surgloofy.

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

Yet, that has nothing to do with me saying in a humorous vein that as a CD I'm a male lesbian.

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You are tenacious, and you blithely insist on not considering the points of view of people who do feel the term is inappropriate, as if their opinions don't matter? You continue to blindly insist that the hundreds of posts in this forum (which is what this discussion is really about) where CDs have said they are lesbian, is a joke? :wall:

This is, of course, entirely your prerogative. But I feel as if I've wasted my breath.

To everyone in this thread who attempted to explain, I suggest just dropping it, since it's obviously not going anywhere. Let Sophie have the last word. :p

Ok so we have concluded that there is a mixed consensus of views...

Some do find the term offensive

Some do not

What now?

We could just agree to disagree....but that would bring us full circle to the theory behind the argument and become an oxymoron of an oxymoron.....

Many words i have found offensive throughout life, as have we all. When you let someone get the best of you using words, you enable them with power over you. If you dont let it bother you then you have given them no power at all.

Many words can be found offensive only by their use in context and delivery. Its how a person says it that counts, not exactly what they say.

The whole topic is kind of ridiculous.... Something that a comedian said to help describe himself to people who are not educated about transgender people...... in a way they would understand and also laugh about. I say kudos for making a social bridge to those who dont understand what we go through as the T in LGBT.

-Donni-

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Originally Posted by DonniDarkness

Ok so we have concluded that there is a mixed consensus of views...

Some do find the term offensive

Some do not

What now?

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Nothing. I think we should just move on and let things simmer for awhile. :)

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Originally Posted by DonniDarkness

Ok so we have concluded that there is a mixed consensus of views...
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The whole topic is kind of ridiculous....

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Perhaps you should consider doing what I do. When I find the topic of a particular thread to be uninteresting or even mildly ridiculous from my point of view, I move on to the next thread.

Whilst you may find the original poster's question about what we think of the term "male lesbian" ridiculous, I doubt that she does.

To me it means that if I were a female I would be a Lesbian.