when does Crossdresser become Transsexual if ever

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Originally Posted by whowhatwhen

That's interesting actually, did she give a reason why?

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I can speak to that. I started exploring cross-dressing in 2009 and I spent the whole year trying in vain to get good at it. I met a few local girls and I skulked around this site as well as a gazillion others searching for my identity. The cross-dressing gave me a new perspective and for the first time in my life I was freed from my carefully constructed "dude" prison. I had never been referred to as "she" before and it felt so right and so wonderful that I think I became addicted to the "scene" for a short time. My childhood desire to be a girl came flooding back and I was swept away by the possibilities and simultaneously horrified by the consequences. I realized in just a few months that I had a serious issue but by the end of the year (2009) I had decided that I was done with this stuff and while I was happy to finally know what my problem was, I was not prepared to ruin my life and humiliate myself by becoming a transsexual.

I had never been a cross dresser and though I always felt feminine I had decided as an adolescent to just try and be the kind of guy I admired. Eventually it all came to a head, and I had a brief but intense cross dressing career before I scared myself straight.

Just a few weeks after my decision to continue my life as it was, I was in a pretty bad car wreck (January 2010) and that's when I made the decision to live an authentic life.

CD's are not stunted or latent TS's they are men who are happy being men and for any number of reasons enjoy dressing up and exploring various degrees of femininity. I never enjoyed the act of cross-dressing, I just really really loved being treated like a girl. A faux girl admittedly, but the she's and her's were almost euphoric to me. This is why I keep hammering on the idea that CD's love the clothes and TS's yearn to BE.

My transition goal is to pass 100% as a woman in jeans and a T-shirt. No make-up, no wig, no heels. That doesn't sound much like cross-dressing does it?

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Originally Posted by Bree_K

Crossdressers don't become transexual.

Some transexuals may THINK they are crossdressers for a while as they continue to repress their true identity.

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I understand that that opinion is fairly common, but I have not seen evidence for it being true.

I posted the below in the Media section a couple of days ago, in reaction to this essay:

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Originally Posted by sandra-leigh

When I read the essay, I was reminded of my own struggles to define whether I was "just a cross-dresser" or was transgender (or perhaps even transsexual.) Reminded because those who did not "always know" tend to reflect back on their life for evidence that this had been with them a long long time rather than being something new and maybe a fetish or maybe an illness. It is not readily accepted that someone might have been one gender while they were growing up, but somewhere along the way had changed and were no longer that gender; we see a lot of narrative along the lines of "Well, maybe I didn't consciously know but that's because I was repressing it". So I read the author's words, and I get struck with a doubt: if he went through those things like I did, and he is male, then is my internal history to support being "not-male" perhaps flawed and maybe I am within the range of male after all?? An attack of The Doubts is never a fun time.

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Yes, I was, in part, calling in to question the idea that gender does not change and that transsexuals were always transsexual. Just as Newton famously had no reason to invoke the hypothesis of God in his most famous work, I have not yet seen a reason to invoke the hypothesis that an individual's gender can never change.

Was I female as a child, or was I just an unusual male? I don't know. I seemed male to me, even though I did not fit with more than a small fraction of the other males. Did my gender change, or did I simply not know myself to be transgendered before? I don't know.

I do not know whether "I was always this way" -- but really does the quest for history and "reasons" matter. I am what I am now, no matter how I got here, and my choices and my life have to deal with what is, not with figuring out the Why of it. If I changed gender along the way, then so what?? I'm "here" now.

Before you say whether gender cannot change, you need to figure out what gender is. Is it part of the "soul", a spiritual aspect distinct with but (in some way) interacting with the body? Is it pure genetics, XX is one and XY is another and XX+Y and kin are biological mistakes to be lumped in to a nebulous "other"? Is it all of the several identified gendered brain formations meeting one the normals for XX or XY and any departure from this is yet another biological mistake that "doesn't count"? Is it whether whatever the majority of those brain centers are? Is there different weightings for the various brain centers with the weighted average determining the brain gender?

My own situation is so far consistent with the hypothesis that one or more of my brain centers disagreed with the others about gender, and that for decades my brain worked around the disagreement, doing repairs to so (most) everything matched up. And that with increasing age and increasing life stress, and increased backlog of the brain not being repaired, that there came a time when my brain failed over, no longer able to keep going properly with the imbalance. And that adjusting my gender balance brought my brain more in to peace in its new configuration.

An examination of this hypothesis about me implies that it could possibly be said that my working gender was "male" for decades, but that at some point (perhaps before the hard fail-over itself) my gender had become more female in balance (or at least significantly not male.)

A drop of oil placed on a regular-sized piece of paper will eventually spread out until the oily spot covers the majority of the paper. Do we say that once the oil potential was there, that the paper was "already" oil-covered but just hadn't realized it yet, that the small-sized spots are "repressed" versions of what will be? Or do we say that things can change and evolve in time?

The situation can, of course, be different for different people, but I do not consider it even have been significantly "tested" to say that every TS was "always" a TS, and it is not clear why, in the absence of evidence, that the idea is repeated so often as definite truth. The interpretation of this pattern of responses would appear to be that there is some importance that TS attach to "always having been TS", that the idea is of some strong "value" to them.

And if someone wants to say that "Oh, you are different, your brain isn't typical, maybe not even healthy", then there are two responses that I can bring to that: (1) You are correct, I was born brain-damaged (a fact that has been medically confirmed); and (2) Yeah, So? The "primary transsexuals", are they being born with "typical" brains?

The mechanism of my (known) brain damage are not so uncommon: very low oxygen before and birth, possibly lung problems or possibly umbilical cord wrapped around my neck. No some exotic rare disease: just not enough oxygen. A "typical" birth problem relative to problem births.

If I was odd-but-still-male when I was younger, but if I am no longer still male, and if there are atypical biological circumstances for that, is there a problem with that?

I am now transgender because that is what works for me, not because I feel as if I was always meant to be a woman but was betrayed by God or my body. Living in the NOW of my reality, and hopefully not in the fantasies.

[QUOTE=Katesback;2779258]You threw out a joke so I will. The difference between a CD and a TS is that the CD is married and the TS is not. LOL Seriously I believe a surprising number of CDs are really TS but for 1000 reasons or excuses (married being the biggest one) they choose not to transition.
/QUOTE]

I think there's a considerable degree of truth in this statement for many of us. Each of us does a personal calculus taking into account how we define or understand ourselves (at any given moment) and what the risks and costs would be. I'm sure these can change over time for some of us, and that like gravity, we're pulled more towards the TS perspective and perhaps compelled to take greater risks. Others may find a perfectly happy balance and remain there. The frightening part is not knowing for certain which path you may be on.

Sandra

This is not about manliness of womanliness...this is not about "qualities" or "traits"...that article has absolutely nothing to do with transsexuals..
By posting that article you are expanding what we all commonly think of as gender
Living a life not feeling manly is a far cry from living a woman's life...

in your analogy of oil and paper...it is not whether the paper is oil soaked that is in question...
it is whether you are paper or glass... the oil will roll off the glass, it can be wiped off with a quick swipe....it will seep in the paper... its a or b.. gender is about paper vs glass, glass does not turn into paper if you drop some oil on it....

forget the word gender...there is SOMETHING INSIDE your soul or mind...call it whatever you want... I call it (and most people call it) gender...

From a ts perspective, you saying you do not see "evidence" or you haven't seen the idea "tested"
is just sticking your fingers in your ear while we all say what we lived and observed..

...it is on YOU to prove to us why the way we experienced (and literally every transsexual i ever met) it is somehow misunderstood by US

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Originally Posted by sandra-leigh

I understand that that opinion is fairly common, but I have not seen evidence for it being true.

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An examination of this hypothesis about me implies that it could possibly be said that my working gender was "male" for decades, but that at some point (perhaps before the hard fail-over itself) my gender had become more female in balance (or at least significantly not male.)

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The situation can, of course, be different for different people, but I do not consider it even have been significantly "tested" to say that every TS was "always" a TS, and it is not clear why, in the absence of evidence, that the idea is repeated so often as definite truth. The interpretation of this pattern of responses would appear to be that there is some importance that TS attach to "always having been TS", that the idea is of some strong "value" to them.

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I am now transgender because that is what works for me, not because I feel as if I was always meant to be a woman but was betrayed by God or my body. Living in the NOW of my reality, and hopefully not in the fantasies.

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A cisgender says crossdressers are gay and that gay is a choice.
A crossdresser says transexuals are just highly devoted crossdressers.
A transgender says the transexuals are just transgender but pretend they were always one gender.
A transexual says crossdressers are just transexuals in the making.

What do all four of these people have in common? They're not respecting that there are people out there that experience things differently than them.

You have your own unique situation and experienced things your way. That's fine. But just because you haven't experienced what MOST other transexuals HAVE experienced that what they are saying isn't true.

If you haven't seen the evidence that you were a girl since you were born, that's because things are different for you. MOST other transexuals have.

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Originally Posted by Bree_K

What do all four of these people have in common? They're not respecting that there are people out there that experience things differently than them.

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Oh, but it gets worse!

Any of the finger-pointers also have to maintain that people do things for pleasure despite the pain in doing them, that they have ulterior motives despite the risk of having them obliterated (e.g., autogynephilia vs. loss of orgasmic capability), that they are compulsive even when there is no pattern of addictive behavior, that they are irresponsible though they are sterling citizens, spouses, and parents, that they are selfish despite extraordinary levels of self-sacrifice, liars despite horrific psychological pressure, aggressive and in people's faces when they only wish to pass unnoticed, deluded despite knowledge of risk and implications, and more!

But even more than this sort of thing and the lack of respect is this: These views are deeply, fundamentally transphobic. They are evidence of disbelief in the reality of trans identities. Period.

Lea

There is a blue one who can't accept the green one
For living with a fat one trying to be a skinny one
And different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and scooby dooby doo-bee

I am everyday people

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Originally Posted by Katesback

Kitty I think your wrong about CDs. A lot are TS yes but its not known how many are. Others are not and so we just have to be clear!

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You know I could be but............. Why do so many cd's hate their male self? Why dress the male disrespectfully with out of date jeans, T-shirts, sportswear or anything that takes no effort at all but dress the feme self elaborately? This to me suggests a disrespect for the male self. If maleness was embraced equally there would be the same effort in the variety and quality of the male clothing? Infinate variety exists in the mens section, It is no secret I have shopped there. To me that makes no sense and also leads partners and family members of cd's to question their true identity. Most cds actions don't match their words. If my husband could have equally embraced his male self with the cd part time? I could have hung in there (well maybe not without a lot of medication, he was more than trans) but it never stays parttime. You read it here time and time again. In fact it seems rare that a cd can actually gain balance between the fem and male self. To me that is confusing evidence that crossdressing is just a transition to the realization that the truth is more transexual than anything.

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Originally Posted by kittypw GG

If my husband could have equally embraced his male self with the cd part time? I could have hung in there (well maybe not without a lot of medication, he was more than trans) but it never stays parttime. You read it here time and time again. In fact it seems rare that a cd can actually gain balance between the fem and male self. To me that is confusing evidence that crossdressing is just a transition to the realization that the truth is more transexual than anything.

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Okay now I see where you're coming from Kitty. Is your experience with this from a small sampling of CD's because what you are saying goes directly against statistical evidence from people in the field. That was my original point, I'm not being difficult btw.

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Originally Posted by kittypw GG

.... Most cds actions don't match their words. If my husband could have equally embraced his male self with the cd part time? ....... In fact it seems rare that a cd can actually gain balance between the fem and male self. ....

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Kitty, with all due respect to your personal expereince, but its just one experience. Perhaps your husband was a deeply repressed transsexual, but on the other hand you mention he had other issues. There's ample evidence to the contrary among the varied members of this site. And as for balance, one can acheive some degree of balance without it being a 50:50 deal. There are part timers here who dress rarely, some others, like myself who dress most of the time, and yet still present as males when they choose.

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Originally Posted by Bree_K

You have your own unique situation and experienced things your way. That's fine. But just because you haven't experienced what MOST other transexuals HAVE experienced that what they are saying isn't true.

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Bree, you yourself wrote that "Crossdressers don't become transexual." You did not write, "In my experience", you write it as a statement of truth about all transsexuals. Was that "respecting that there are people out there that experience things differently than them" ?

I write that I have not seen any evidence that gender is absolutely fixed, no evidence that it is not possible for a (non-transsexual) cross-dresser to become transsexual. Am I making a statement about what "MOST" transsexuals have experienced? Not in the least. I am making a statement about the difference between MOST and ALL. To toss out a figure just to have a framework for discussion, suppose 99% of those who are male cross-dressers never will (circumstance) or never can (lack the potential to) become MTF transsexuals: that would still leave a non-zero portion who might change from being male to being female, without having "always been" female. Sure "1%" cross-over might be too high (or too low) a portion, but do we really know enough about transsexuality and the nature of gender to say that gender, once formed, is definitely invariant (if sometimes perhaps "not recognized" until later in life) ?

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Originally Posted by kittypw GG

Infinate variety exists in the mens section,

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Yes indeed and I had a great time dressing up in different outfits, or suits, or sweaters. I love fashionable men and a big good looking man in a nicely tailored outfit is really something to behold. (and be held) ;-)

What you're describing is just cross-dressers being silly and trying to pretend the reason why they do it is because men's clothes are so awful and uncomfortable. I know this to be bunk because I spent 42 years wearing men's clothes exclusively. I went through a preppy phase in high school where I never wore jeans and me and a couple of friends would literally razz each other about bad fashion choices. (socks with top-siders? really) There is a wonderful array of men's fashion out there and it doesn't have to be expensive to be stylish. The real problem is, it LOOKS like menswear so the cross dresser is not interested. Of course rather than say that, so many of them feel compelled to wheel out that tired old excuse of comfort or blandness to explain why they prefer womenswear.

This does not mean they are latent TS's, they're just simply unable to own who they are for whatever reason. I talk about self acceptance a lot because it's as important as it is difficult. Many of these guys desperately want a healthy relationship with an accepting woman, but that will never happen until they can accept themselves.

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Originally Posted by sandra-leigh

Bree, you yourself wrote that "Crossdressers don't become transexual." You did not write, "In my experience", you write it as a statement of truth about all transsexuals. Was that "respecting that there are people out there that experience things differently than them" ?

I write that I have not seen any evidence that gender is absolutely fixed, no evidence that it is not possible for a (non-transsexual) cross-dresser to become transsexual. Am I making a statement about what "MOST" transsexuals have experienced? Not in the least. I am making a statement about the difference between MOST and ALL. To toss out a figure just to have a framework for discussion, suppose 99% of those who are male cross-dressers never will (circumstance) or never can (lack the potential to) become MTF transsexuals: that would still leave a non-zero portion who might change from being male to being female, without having "always been" female. Sure "1%" cross-over might be too high (or too low) a portion, but do we really know enough about transsexuality and the nature of gender to say that gender, once formed, is definitely invariant (if sometimes perhaps "not recognized" until later in life) ?

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MOST is what I meant. I thought you might notice that since every other post I've made in this thread follows that theme... even in the one you JUST quoted me on. Simply a brain fart on my part.

But from the start of your post, you made it sound like "oh well I hear this and that... but I don't believe it"...

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I understand that that opinion is fairly common, but I have not seen evidence for it being true.

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Yes, I was, in part, calling in to question the idea that gender does not change and that transsexuals were always transsexual.

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So if you can forgive me for leaving out "most" that one time, I'll forgive you for making it sound like you were debating whether all transexuals were always their true gender :P I wasn't the only one that got this impression from your post...

No hard feelings. It just sounded to me like you were saying you didn't believe that most transexuals were their true gender from birth. There's no hard evidence one way or the other, but there are TONS of transexuals that will swear they were always the gender they transitioned to live as.

You can't ask a man to be stereotypically "manly" if he isn't and I'm going to bet there is a laaaaaarge amount of men out there that aren't.
Manliness is fake, it's all fake and if some guy is acting all tough bro like then I would assume he's probably closeted in some form.

If you want to go by "real men", then they're the most stealth at all not needing fancy male clothes or stereotypes to reassure themselves.

Edit:
No, why of course I'm not bitter at all...

I believe that I was always TG, since the age of eight I have wanted to live as much as my adult life as possible as a woman. In my youth I had a reoccurring dream wher I was a nanny, nurse, taking care of a young boy whose father was a widower who fell in love with me, and I was in a dither weather or not I should tell him that I was born a male, I always woke up before my decision was made, oh well I may be getting close to a merry event. :)

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

Kitty, with all due respect to your personal expereince, but its just one experience. .

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Awe but it's not just one experience. Haven't you ever read what the gg's post?

For the most part, each of us was born with one set of sex oragans which detirmines what sex we really are. I said, "for the most part" because they are people born with both types of sex organs! However, they are few and far between!! Most of us on this forum were born men, and will always remain men unless that person has special surgery.

I am a male who does love to crossdress. I do it simply because I like to wear feminine clothes. There is no other reason! By crossdressing I am a Transgender, but I am nowhere near being Transexual nor will I ever be!! I do not have, nor have I ever had, any desire to BE a woman!! IMHO, dressing like one and actually being one are 2 entirely different things!!

For those who don't really know the difference, a TG is one who crosses the border between sexes, but remains the sex they were born as! A perfect example is crossdressing. If you wear feminine clothes you are crossing the border and therefore you are a TG. On the other hand, if you wear feminine clothes so as to be a woman for men you most likely are a Transsexual who would prefer to be a woman!

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Originally Posted by NathalieX66

It's been theorized that transsexuals sometimes have brain wiring that is not of their birth gender. That maybe true but it is still a theory.

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The "brain wiring" may just be a theory, but there is a lot of science behind the established fact that a Ts's brain is physically different to the average brain of a cisgender with the same birth sex.

Trouble is, the proof can only be established post mortem and personally, I am in no hurry for that. :eek:

I think it depends on the person and the reason behind the dressing. A true crossdresser may not want to be a woman at all, and may simply enjoy a shorter less permanent experience. Others may have trouble getting up daily and functioning in life as a man. I fall into the later. The reason for doing it may not be apparent at first, but it's usually there the whole time.

I consider myself trans and have a shoe fetish. Crossdressing for me started out as nothing more than accessories to go with my shoes, and ended in me realizing what had been missing from my life all along. Odd path, but I'm odd so it's not surprising.

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Originally Posted by whowhatwhen

Manliness is fake, it's all fake

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All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts.

Sometimes I feel as if I was born without certain genes (or maybe just different genes) because I do not get the pleasure that some men seem to get from certain activities.

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if some guy is acting all tough bro like then I would assume he's probably closeted in some form.

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Now there you could be mistaken. I don't think they are closeted or compensating as much as they are trying to fulfill the role and make themselves look bigger or meaner or badder than their cohorts. I think it is all part of the act because that is how they were told to act and react. I also believe that many are very happy with the role they are awarded. Who wouldn't be (OK OK I see about 500 hands going up out there). Males (men, and WASP men especially in the Western world) are endowed with so many privileges why would anyone want to give those up? They pretty much have carte blanc now. Even the requirements to be "gentlemanly" have become passe'.

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Originally Posted by kittypw GG

Awe but it's not just one experience. Haven't you ever read what the gg's post?

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How many GGs in a successful relationship are rushing to tell a CD forum vs the ones desparately looking for answers?

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Originally Posted by kittypw GG

Awe but it's not just one experience. Haven't you ever read what the gg's post?

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actually, yes I have.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Now there you could be mistaken. I don't think they are closeted or compensating as much as they are trying to fulfill the role and make themselves look bigger or meaner or badder than their cohorts. I think it is all part of the act because that is how they were told to act and react.

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I can see your point, and I may have been generalizing a bit as what first 'clicked' my head into thinking of my feminine side was realizing how fake and plastic "manliness" and the male image felt.
Of course I'm no benchmark either, growing up other kids made it clear to me I wasn't acting like "a normal school boy" either.

So my thought became "expressing manliness" == "HAY LOOK HOW TOTALLY NOT GAY I AM! LOOK!".

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Originally Posted by sissystephanie

For the most part, each of us was born with one set of sex oragans which detirmines what sex we really are. I said, "for the most part" because they are people born with both types of sex organs! However, they are few and far between!! Most of us on this forum were born men, and will always remain men unless that person has special surgery.

I am a male who does love to crossdress. I do it simply because I like to wear feminine clothes. There is no other reason! By crossdressing I am a Transgender, but I am nowhere near being Transexual nor will I ever be!! I do not have, nor have I ever had, any desire to BE a woman!! IMHO, dressing like one and actually being one are 2 entirely different things!!

For those who don't really know the difference, a TG is one who crosses the border between sexes, but remains the sex they were born as! A perfect example is crossdressing. If you wear feminine clothes you are crossing the border and therefore you are a TG. On the other hand, if you wear feminine clothes so as to be a woman for men you most likely are a Transsexual who would prefer to be a woman!

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You love to post this. There is a difference between sex and gender. Sex has to do with the genitals. Gender is internal. And since you know so much about what determines a person's sex/gender/whatever, why is it the genitals that determines this for you? Not the internal sex organs or chromosomes? I don't care what parts I have, I'm a woman, the government agrees with me, and I will live as a woman for the rest of my life. Your 50 year old opinion based on what science now knows isn't true plays no part in this.

Being transexual isn't the desire to be a woman... internally, we ARE women. I would have rather been a man if I could choose. It would have been so much easier.

And transexuals don't wear women's cloths to be a woman for men. Yes... I want to hook a man... let me go dress up like a lady.... /sarcasm

You are sorely misinformed.

Maybe you should listen to what the transexuals have to say about who they are and why they have to do what they do rather than making up your own crazy stories.