Attacking and Challenging Members - Fair Game or Not?

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Originally Posted by Eryn

Considering that there have been 95 posts in three days in a thread that began simply by quoting my assertions there seems to be considerable substance to what I wrote.

The ironic thing is that I did not start this thread. If Anne had not decided that my post from another thread was worth quoting the discussion would not have continued.

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This is incoherent. your assertion is that people posting about how difficult transition is belittles others... that is ridiculous

the fact that an avalanche of posts came does not in any way validate your false assertion

the issue IS that people here make YOU feel belittled.. this is an issue ABOUT YOU... and you come up with some little quote that belittles people that dare to stand up your comments...

that doesnt mean i am small minded as you passive aggressively stated early,,,, it means i see your comment clearly for what it is....whining about something that doesnt exist.(generally speaking...one thing that complicates matters is sometimes there are mean posts, sometimes there are nasty comments, some of them are sneaky nasty ...but that is far far far from the rule)


and if i was to whine, i'd say something like...wah wah wah... dont say full time except work because it makes me feel bad....your false assertions disbeleive and marginalize transition...dressing up during the evenings is just as good as living full time... wah wah

i bet my life on transition...one thing is i get to say "full time" and mean it...
one thing about "full time" is that it means full time... there is no middle to it, no prevarication....it feels really bad to have people not make that investment and then claim some kind of ownership to it..

but i dont...because it doesnt make me feel bad... and that's because i learned to live with my feelings and my reality by transitioning and living authentically...
there is nothing to whine about...its my life...

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its your life too Eryn, maybe consider stop whining about what makes you feel belittled and live your life in a way that makes you feel included instead of demanding people dont share their experience..

maybe consider that transitioned people actually know more about transition than you... maybe consider that's OK with you and live your different life the way you want and be good with it...

it surprises me because the things i read about your personal journey seem like you are making excellent progress and doing very well...but your posts in this thread and other tell another story



and one last thing... easy transitions are possible...hard work and serendipity and dare i say priviledge(appearance, $$, a bisexual wife) can really help a person achieve hugely successful outcomes..does that make you feel better??

I doubt you want to hear a dissertation those either.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

Jeeez Anne, can't you write about tacos or something??? ;)

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Mmmmmmm, bacon tacos!

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

and one last thing... easy transitions are possible...hard work and serendipity and dare i say priviledge(appearance, $$, a bisexual wife) can really help a person achieve hugely successful outcomes..does that make you feel better??

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Do dare to say it! Aligned stars are important too.

Only with a harvest Moon.

I'm coming out today, thank you all for giving me the courage.
I just want to say... I'm straight.

*whew*

Okay, brilliant posts from Kait with a K aside, I see gals that I respect starting to go down the "except for work" rabbit hole.

First of all, there is no TranSitioner that would say that any experience towards living your truth is invalid. Hell, going to the club dressed to kill is a valid experience. Going to Sparkle is a valid experience. Very few people who dance on the gender fence will actually ever transition to the other side so hopefully everyone is expressing themselves for the sake of self expression rather than trying to tick off some kind of pre-transition checklist.

Second, if someone is not full-time and they don't take advantage of that then they are just plain nuts. I'll tell you right now that my part-time experience was limited to situations where I felt comfortable. Period. I didn't give a damn about gaining cred in this forum or the community at large. My transition was for me and me alone. My time, my life, my schedule, my everything. I did it my way, and I made plenty of mistakes, but those were mine too.

Also, when someone says "except work", that means that their name isn't changed, that their life in the legal sense is being lived as a man. So what they're really saying is that their time spent as a woman is really time spent dressed as a woman. Transition is not about dressing in women's clothes. It's about LIVING the life of a woman. Voting, working, paying bills, etc. Late transitioners tend to look like men, so does that make it LESS important that you take steps to change your name and gender marker? You will very likely face discrimination while doing this. That's the life.

People say "except work" like it's just this tiny little sliver of your life. It's actually the biggest part of your life if you are a professional. If your career and professional relationships don't bleed into your personal time, then I want to do what you do. Further if your're going to try and tell me that wearing women's clothes on the weekends is even remotely like what I had to endure when I walked into the office on day one and all of the subsequent 'coming outs' at meetings and job sites throughout that first year then I'm just gonna shake my head and wish you the best.

Having said all that, there is no question that doing the part time thing can be a valuable training ground. Most people will stop there and enjoy expressing themselves in their own damn comfort zones. I think that's just dandy.

The bottom line is, that even the girls who had prolonged periods of "except work" now say that it isn't comparable to dropping the F (full-time) bomb. They now know this because they learned it the hard way; They went FULL-TIME.

My experience is very similar to Sue's. I am full time except for work. Yes I did come out to the President of my company last week so I am anxious to take the except work off! However, our experiences can be misleading. I work from home except when in front of customers or maybe twice a month when I have to appear at the plant and office. So my except work is not that much. I have been out socially and as a parent for a year and a half. I assure you that is more than dressing up. But yes it has become more real with gender and name change and coming out to my boss.

It is simple, I don't share about being out at work because I don't know anything about it. I hope in about 2 weeks I will!

Oh and yes there are those of us who are just truly lucky and we have bisexual wives that just couldn't wait until we transitioned. I know my wife was so elated when I turned our lives upside down. It was so easy and there were no difficult conversations or soul searching. She can't wait until I have SRS!
Hmmmmm.

Suzanne

Melissa I totally agree. Transition, committing to life as a woman in all respects, cannot be compared to part time experienced. Part time, or even FTEFW (love having another acronym to play with) are clearly just stops along the way. And some of us may take the bus all to the end, while others may get off at an intervening stop.

You're also right that we shouldn't be concerned about gaining credibility with anyone. The task for each of us is to figure out who we are and how far we are going.

To the topic where this all began, yes it helps to hear the voices of disparate experiences, good and bad, along the way. Given the nature of the medium,such discussions often seem to give way to contentious and increasing personal disputes...like any you tube comment section. At that point I usually check out and look for something else to read.

The gender program I went through only started the clock on full-time if the patient/client was full-time at work or in school. They wanted to observe and evaluate the effect of stressors in situations where it mattered. Otherwise, it's cross-dressing.

If the transitioner is a tomboy, how is it full-time, full-time? It's the affirmation of the new social identity with the mininum required to make it visible. In my case, it was hair removal. The vageenal surgery is less and less important as jurisdictions relax rules on gender markers (my F rested on SRS). After that, it becomes a philosophical question for people like Kathryn and others who care about it.

It does not mean that people who are not full-time don't have a right to speak up and don't deserve to be heard. It means that they cannot claim to have transitioned and demand to be regarded as such.

Can I just say something really important here.

Bacon Tacos?? Seriously is that a thing?

Hell yeah. And they are delicious.

I hesitate to be completely pedantic about definitions. Circumstances differ from individual to individual, after all. On the other hand, the "except work" exclusion represents both a big chunk of waking, social interaction and a major hurdle that is being avoided. It's also a potential daily dodge for any errands being run before or after work. Then there's the legal identity issue that Melissa raises, and the unavoidable fact that trying to avoid being outed at work suggests also avoiding running into co-workers outside of a work environment.

... but I do wonder how common extremely limited carve-outs are even among those I'd consider to be clearly full-time. I haven't contacted my high school or university to have transcripts updated because I don't see the point. There's even a small branch of the family that I haven't heard from since pre-transition that I haven't reached out to. There's even one family member that I visited twice in drab. Ugh. I'm almost certain hard-liners would be aghast and could very well be up in arms at that revelation. It's actually something I talked over with my therapist at some length due to the circumstances and conflict attached: my grandfather's health was failing and my father was positively apoplectic at the idea of me coming out to him. In working toward reconciliation with my father I didn't think that was the right battle to fight, given that he wouldn't be present. So yes, I spent about 5 hours in drab out of the first five years. From my therapist's point of view she saw it not as a convenience, but a hardship I was willing to endure.

Transition is complicated and often ugly. I found some surprising discoveries in that that last-ever experience prior to my grandfather's death. Walking out of the hotel we were staying at that morning I felt hopelessly awkward in what felt like clown shoes and ill-fitting garb, and yet the doorman saw through it all and told us to "have a nice day, ladies." My grandfather's last words to me when we parted that day were to observe how much I reminded him of his late wife. That feeling of being cross-dressed in reverse against my own wishes was distinctly odd and strangely confirming.

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

This is incoherent. your assertion is that people posting about how difficult transition is belittles others...

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This is a deliberate misreading of what I wrote. I will repeat it here for your convenience:

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Originally Posted by Eryn

Telling a person that their ideas are invalid or wrong because they haven't:

1. Had surgery
2. Suffered as another person has
3. Lived full-time
4. Attempted suicide
5. Been discriminated against in a particular way

or had some other life experience is belittling.

We should be discussing the issues that we face. Attacking another's credibility achieves little except for driving away those who are too fragile to tolerate the drama.

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Note that I stated that the act of telling someone that their ideas are invalid is belittling.

In no way did I state or imply that describing one's own experiences is belittling.

In fact, I stated that we should be discussing the issues we face!

What we shouldn't be doing is attacking the credibility of other members because their issues and paths differ from our own.

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Originally Posted by becky77

Can I just say something really important here.

Bacon Tacos?? Seriously is that a thing?

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Yes indeed. And probably deep fat fried bacon tacos at the Minnesota State Fair. It's an American thing.

Being brutally honest. If an individual that is contemplating transition can't tolerate the drama on an internet forum. There is no way they will be able to weather the drama that comes with transition in real life.

The crux of the this debate is that part timers chime in they are full time except. When they told it is not comparable they get butthurt and try to justify their position.
This topic is being debated back and forth. And it would be great if Trans individuals were the only ones. But it boils down to society. I lived and worked with various presentations during my early transition. My employees, family and clients knew what I doing at least a year before I received my name change. They didn't take it seriously until the name change. The date the court declared Stephen should be thereafter known as Stephanie was the date I went full-time. If was only then those around me knew I was serious and this was life from now on.

Today is house cleaning day for me. I was just cleaning the toilet and a thought came to me that applies here. This is so dirty, why in the world did I want to put my butt here?

I think this thread (and it is the same thread even if we are at rev 5 because of the child threads) has been filled with a lot of things. And I feel for Rianna and Nigella for weathering all of this. First, I see discussions where you can tell one person is approaching it a certain way and someone comes back with a counter point, but they are approaching it differently. A good example was the thing that started this, should your name be legally changed for it to be RLE. Some people argued about it legally, some by WPATH standards, and some morally. It went in circles because there wasn't a lot of syncing to the thoughts. And that has continued through the rest of this.

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Originally Posted by stefan37

The crux of the this debate is that part timers chime in they are full time except. When they told it is not comparable they get butthurt and try to justify their posit

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Well, in my opinion, no. I see everyone getting butt hurt, not just the part timers. It is one great big cluster of butt hurt. At this point, I am not going to go back and restate anything I have stated before. I already see people misstating what I have already said. Heck, I am full time and I am defending that part timers are getting some experience. But I see comments that say "all the full timers....". This has gotten too big to have any value anymore.

I think it is time to wrap this up as one great big miscommunication. We have lost the real points of the discussion and it has been like a shotgun blast of points. There are a lot of things being misinterpreted and no ground being gained. I have seen a few serious snips out there that I hate to see. We are all in this together and we all have different thoughts and experiences and I value it all as it has brought me from the beginning to where I am. It is one thing to offer advice and experience to guide those on the path and it is another to tell people they are wrong even if they are experiencing it.

I'm hardly butthurt. Just stating my experience with transition and interacting with the public and authorities.

How anybody else wishes to live their life is up to them.

To be clear, I am not calling out anyone in particular. Just stating my observations.

I am somebody who is a part-timer. As to transitioning, that is something I am currently in the process of deciding. Two years ago I would have said never, a year ago a small possibility. Now it is about 50/50. One step I am taking on the road to transitioning is laser hair removal on my face.

Now part-time can mean different things to different people. For me it does not include work situations. Outside of work situations I mostly present as a woman. There are a few in which I still present as a male. One would be going to the auto mechanic, and I am planning to go have maintenance on my car done in the next week or two, and do it presenting as a woman. Another situation is when I meet with people I have not outed myself to, and these are people I knew before I ever started going out in public dressed en femme. This is a situation I am not in very often anymore. Now when I recently took care of legal situations like register my car or getting a drivers license or getting a replacement Social Security Card, I did do that in male mode.

My part time situation now does involve a lot of situations that I am comfortable, but they are comfortable because I have done them over and over again. These situations include things like going grocery shopping, shopping for items that do not involve female clothing, going on a walk for the purpose of exercise, going out to restaurants. These situations were not comfortable for me when I first did them. I remember how nerve wrecking it was when I first flew dressed en femme and also having to deal with government people. Checking into a hotel presenting as a woman was also nerve wrecking the first time I did it. So by doing things that are uncomfortable at first, I am able to expand my comfort zone.

If I am doing things that I did before I ever started dressing en femme, then to me it is more than just time spent dressing as a woman. So before ever presenting as a woman in public I did shop for non-female related items, I went to restaurants, and I did go out on walks.

Now I understand that part time can never substitute for being 24/7, and you cannot fully understand what it is like to live full time as a woman until you actually do it. By being part time I am exploring the idea as to whether I would want to live 24/7 as a woman and fully transition. The more time that I spend presenting as a woman, the stronger I find my desire to transition. Going back about 3 years ago, I thought dressing as a woman once every few months outside of the town I live in would satisfy me, but it does not do that anymore. As to where I end up in the future I cannot say, maybe I will stay as a part-timer or maybe I will in fact transition. I am planning to take my time in making this decision, so that I will make a decision that I will not regret in future years.

Buddha onna biscuit! We are all family, people. We may not always have the same experiences and the same challenges, but that bull in a dress is on the same side as you slinky things who have transformed. We are all part of the same experience.

How dare any of you/us marginalize others of us who are still fighting with ourselves?

None of us are 'fair game'. We are all just expressing aspects of the divine people we are. We are all just aspects of the same power.

Avatars

Hate is hate. Exclusion is exclusion.

We are all part of the same thing. I get angry at much of the limited thoughts expressed by people who should know better.

- MM

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

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Originally Posted by stefan37

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Originally Posted by becky77

Can I just say something really important here.

Bacon Tacos?? Seriously is that a thing?

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Hell yeah. And they are delicious.

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Yes indeed. And probably deep fat fried bacon tacos at the Minnesota State Fair. It's an American thing.

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All American! Brings back memories of the LA County Fair, where they spend all year figuring out things to deep fat fry.

Twinkies, ice cream, bacon-wrapped pickles, sausage, peanut butter, Kool Aid, donuts, Oreos, and some things that are really weird!

As well as the Krispy Kreme triple cheeseburger:

Attachment 250007


http://www.lacountyfair.com/eat/food_v2

Last year at the Texas state fair they had deep fried butter. But only the Minnesota State Fair has Garrison Keillor and the Prairie Home Companion!

I dunno, it would be pretty tough to deep-fry Garrison Keillor!

"Welcome to CD.com, where all the transwomen are strong, all the transmen are good-looking, and all the TG folk are above average."

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

Last year at the Texas state fair they had deep fried butter. But only the Minnesota State Fair has Garrison Keillor and the Prairie Home Companion!

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can't STAND that guy! (he went to my high school! as did michelle bachman! what a school!)



also how does this bacon taco etc talk have ANYTHING to do with this said thread?

odd how other threads / forums are HAIR TRIGGER for going off the topic but here it's allowed

everything all of the time!