We are not crossdressers.....and we get fed up of being told we are

Oh wow. My browser shows the title to this thread as -We are not crossdressers.....and we get fed- So I thought this was about a free lunch some place.

But what a great thread! As for me I see nothing sexy about men. When I CD I feel sexy, if only to myself. So I want to present as a woman and present as best I possibly can. I love the fit, feel and look of womans clothing and when I am dressed just feel more right.

I would go further but Shananigans said it all so much better than I could hope to.

Now I'm still hungry so I'm going to Dennys....

Well said Sandra :)

As for clothes in general - here is kink - no pun intended :)

Women who wear flannel shirts, t-shirts, dress shirts, jeans, pants, ect, ect.
BUY THEM IN THE WOMEN'S SECTION.
They are women's clothes designed for and sold to women.

It just so happens that they can and sometimes do look just like men's clothes, but they are not.

Now do women actually wear and/or buy men's clothes sometimes?
Sure, hey sometimes they are comfy, I love my "guy" flannel shirts just as much as I like my "girl" flannel shirts.

Do people point and go cd'er to women.....
No because most if not all men's style /make of clothing is available and made for women as well.

Sorry boys [no offense], that is just the way it is :)

Think of it as a small perk we get to enjoy for [in western culture] being almost forced to on a daily basis to be shaven, wear make-up, heels, ect, ect.

Because a girl is looked at more if she isn't shaven, or wearing make-up, or gawd forbid we run to the store in sweatpants and a baseball cap, then she is for wearing what someone may think is a guys shirt or jeans.

As long as skirts, hosiery, ect are only sold in the women's section you will be looked at and judged for wearing them, even if you are not trying to be, look, or act like a girl. Sorry :battingeyelashes:

PS: This is referring to women only and not F2M's in any way, they are boys after all :)

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Originally Posted by sissystephanie

The actual point is very simple!! If a person wears clothing designed and made for the opposite sex, that is crossdressing!! If it was made for the same sex, even if it looks like it might be for the opposite sex, it is not crossdressing!!

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Sorry cannot agree with this. Let me explain why.
Everyone says that it is the intent behind wearing the clothes that is the deciding factor. So what is the intent of a woman who buys clothes which are exact copies of male clothes, her version indistinguishable from the male version?

See there is a big difference between a female version and a direct copy. A female version is deliberately styled differently so everyone can tell it is not a male piece of clothing. This used to be the way female pants were made. But for the last twenty odd years all pretence to differentiate has gone. Women now purchase exact copies of male clothes. So again what is the intent? Sure women are not trying to present as a male but clearly they are choosing to wear male clothes which means they are sending out a gender message which at the very least is saying not girly/feminine.

Let me repeat a point I made earlier. Selling male clothes (or copies of male clothes) in female shops does not alter the gender message of the item itself. Making minor adjustments to suit body dimensions does not alter the gender message of the item.

Then we get to the issue of presenting as a member of the opposite sex. We are told that women can wear as many items of male clothing so long as they dont pack a banana and bind their breasts then this is not crossdressing. For this reason those who support this idea always focus soley on crossdressers who emulate women and deliberatly ignore those who do not. But there is more. If the dividing line is presentation then what about a crossdresser who has a beard? No matter how much female regalia he wears the presence of the beard means he cannot be considered as presenting as a female. That is also true if the crossdresser walks like a man, talks like a man etc. If the man makes no attempt to mask the fact he is a man then it does not matter how much padding, makeup, wigs he wears, he is not a crossdresser according to this artificial dividing line.

Then we get to the sad part. Now we are being told all crossdressers are transgender but many are just in denial. What an ignorant idea. You can wish it that way as much as you wish, it still does not make it true.

I get it society accepted female dressing in male clothes a long time ago. I get it women dont think of such matters themselves. That has no bearing on whether it is crossdressing since this describes a behavior not whether it is considered socially acceptable.

If tomorrow society accepted male crossdressing, we would still be called crossdressers. But in 50 years time we would not be alled that because sufficeint time would have passed that nobody cared anymore. But everyone would still understand that a male choosing to wear female clothes (or copies of) was deliberately alterating his exterior gender message which informs others how he feels about himself and how he wishes to be treated by others.

I don't think I'll ever get all those labels :P
Every time I think I've found the label that corresponds to what I do it turns out differently.
I don't feel like a girl. Don't want to be a girl. Don't want to look like a girl - just feel more comfortable in girls clothes.

So I dress like the other gender from time to time.. more as a fashion statement anyway. So I reckon I would be a crossdresser. But most CD's want to be a woman or pass as one. So ok perhaps I'm a trap, since traps have the same clothing style as me. But I see the term "trap" as a compliment, most as an insult.

So I've given up searching for a label for quite a while now.
I just ignore the labels most of the time and just enjoy this community. Whatever it's called :P

Here on the forum, I always thought the beef was the double standard: OK for women to wear pants, but not OK for men to wear dresses, etc...
OK that's a legitimate beef. The different standards of acceptable attire might change some day (year, decade...) but that's the way it is now.
This whole discussion has turned silly, and is all about the definition of crossdressing.

Since I'm here, here's my opinion: it's not crossdressing for women to wear pants, especially if they're designed for women (fit, fabrics, style, etc.) and there's no intent to present as males. Men wearing kilts are not crossdressing, but picture a seven year old "Hey, look at that guy in a skirt!"

I bought a waist cincher years ago for a little shape control, and discovered my back really likes it. I wear one every day now under my guy clothes. I have never desired to underdress, so I don't consider wearing my waist cincher crossdressing, even though it is a female garment.

Again, this topic boils down to the definition of crossdressing, and we're not likely to resolve this.

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Originally Posted by Sue101

Women now purchase exact copies of male clothes.

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First, I don't consider the jeans, button-down shirts, and polo shirts purchased in the women's section of Eddie Bauer or women's department stores to be "copies" of male clothes, even if they look similar. The colors are different, there is room for boobs and hips, the shoulders are narrower, and all these things are the biggest differentiation of all, once the clothes are on!

These clothes are now entrenched in feminine styling, and they are solidly women's clothes. NOT COPIES! I'm sorry, but you & other CDers who insist these clothes are men's styles, are simply going to have to step up 70 years and change your outlooks. :)

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Originally Posted by Sue101

If the man makes no attempt to mask the fact he is a man then it does not matter how much padding, makeup, wigs he wears, he is not a crossdresser according to this artificial dividing line.

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Second, your point above: given the choice of male or female construction boots, how many CDers here do you think would choose the women's boots (in 2 sizes up from their men's regular sizes, of course), just because they are women's construction boots and thus look cuter? I've seen threads about this here. If there was a universally accepted man's jean skirt (sorry Karren) that was identital to the skirt found in the women's section except for the cut, which do you think the CDers would purchase, because it makes their hips look more feminine? :) How many threads have you seen here of CDers who say they can get away with crossdressing at work when they wear women's polo shirts and pants in neutral colors? How many CDers now swear by women's jeans in guy mode, because of the "yummy stretch and softer fabric"?

Women who wear pants & flannel shirts have no thought of gender when they choose their clothing. Men who wear dresses, and women's pants & flannel shirts do. It's as simple as that.

Well then..:D

First of all yes... Women ( not all the time ) are indeed Cross dressers!! Crossdressing defined in the correct term and not used as an umbrella is one who wears clothing within a society intended or normally worn by the opposite sex of which they were born as..

Now I can see feathers being ruffled over this thread if folks said to the OP you are a transgender and crossdress ..Big differance..

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Bella

First of all yes... Women ( not all the time ) are indeed Cross dressers!! Crossdressing defined in the correct term and not used as an umbrella is one who wears clothing within a society intended or normally worn by the opposite sex of which they were born as..

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I'd like you to close your eyes, and picture in your mind's eye ALL the women you know: coworkers, neighbors, the moms at your children's schools, their teachers, your neighbors, your sister's friends, your wife's friends, your mother's friends, your aunts and their friends, all the women who work in places where you shop, ... all of them.

How many of them buy their clothes in mens stores? :wall: :)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I'd like you to close your eyes, and picture in your mind's eye ALL the women you know: coworkers, neighbors, the moms at your children's schools, their teachers, your neighbors, your sister's friends, your wife's friends, your mother's friends, your aunts and their friends, all the women who work in places where you shop, ... all of them.

How many of them buy their clothes in mens stores? :wall: :)

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If ya wanna call Wal Mart a "Mens Store" Bout all of them.. Any other questions :)

Not a single Female here can not tell me that they have never worn a mens shirt or socks or shoes !! At one time all females have worn a article of male clothing.. Doesn't matter where you buy it either.. I get most my stuff from Ebay does that make it a womens outlet?
The fact of the matter is at one time , women wore dresses men wore pants and even earlier we all wore dresses who cares? Society dictates what is male and whats female in clothing ..My point is ,how do you act while wearing them ? Are you useing the clothing you are wearing as a safety issue or are you just wearing it for comfort? Or like a transgender are you trying to emulate the opposite sex?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I'd like you to close your eyes, and picture in your mind's eye ALL the women you know: coworkers, neighbors, the moms at your children's schools, their teachers, your neighbors, your sister's friends, your wife's friends, your mother's friends, your aunts and their friends, all the women who work in places where you shop, ... all of them.

How many of them buy their clothes in mens stores? :wall: :)

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I just laughed for a good 5 minutes.

I love you for this comment and I agree with the :wall::wall::wall::wall:

That is the long and short of how the some of the responses on this thread have made me feel.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

even if they look similar. The colors are different

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We are talking about different clothes. You are discussing female variations whereas I am pointing out the clothes that have the same styling, color and cloth. They are direct copies and that is their selling point.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

These clothes are now entrenched in feminine styling

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Irrelevant. We already know society acccepted female crossdressing a long time ago. This has no bearing on a women's intent when she buys male clothing.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

how many CDers here do you think would choose the women's boots (in 2 sizes up from their men's regular sizes, of course), just because they are women's construction boots and thus look cuter? I've seen threads about this here.

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This is correct for gender identity crossdressing but this forum is not representative of the wider community and the numerous reasons why men crossdress.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Women who wear pants & flannel shirts have no thought of gender when they choose their clothing

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No-one said they did. Women purposefully choose male clothing for different and subtler reasons which work in the background. For example women would avoid negative female stereotypes like dumb blond, submissive Stepford wife, **** etc while gaining male stereotype qualities like seriousness, confidence, adventurous etc. A woman is aware of the gender content of each piece of clothing and under what circumstances it would be appropriate to use it.

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

I just laughed for a good 5 minutes.

I love you for this comment and I agree with the :wall::wall::wall::wall:

That is the long and short of how the some of the responses on this thread have made me feel.

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I think most of the females in this forum have lost touch with the term "Cross Dressing" ..I think quite a few equate this to being trans gender because it is abused as that,under the TG /TS umbrella.. I don't think any "CDER" here is calling you females Transgender by saying you Crossdress. I know that women can wear a males shirt and still be just as femme while doing it than if she was wearing a dress and thats the point .. You are not wearing mens ( or clothing known for men ) to express being masculine .. To were us "Cder " while wearing female clothing do express being femme..

So in short if you are wearing a males shirt or pants you are crossdressing .. But if you are wearing males shirt or pants to emulate them you are expressing being Transgender.. The correct title for this thread should have been I am fed up just because we may wear clothing known to be worn by men, T-shirt ? Jeans? Doesn't mean we do it to be masculine!!

Attachment 154408

These are both Cotton Piqué Polo Shirts from Eddie Bauer. The women's version has a bit of spandex in it. I picked similar colors for a closer comparison. Men's $29.95, women's $24.95.

I seriously doubt that most women would buy the men's version. As you can see, the men's and women's are unmistakable.

Sue101, if you are younger than me, it could be there are stores that sell the exact same clothing in different sizes for women and men, so they can achieve an androgynous look? If this is what you are talking about, then it is a cross section of fashion that I am not familiar with.

Most of the women I know do buy polo shirts like the women's version above. Again, they would not buy the male styling. It just wouldn't fit right. That's not saying that some women wouldn't, but I'm talking about the vast majority.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

How many of them buy their clothes in mens stores? :wall: :)

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Bella

If ya wanna call Wal Mart a "Mens Store" Bout all of them.. Any other questions :) Not a single Female here can not tell me that they have never worn a mens shirt or socks or shoes !! At one time all females have worn a article of male clothing..

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:wall: That seems a rather reaching generalization, don't you think. And Wal-Mart is no more a Men's store than Macy's is, considering they have seperate departments for men's and women's clothing.

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Doesn't matter where you buy it either..

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I buy my jeans from the women's department, does that mean I'm double crossdressing or something. Wait a minute, I'm a TS so it would only be single crossdressing, not double. It DOES matter where

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

I love you for this comment and I agree with the :wall::wall::wall::wall:

That is the long and short of how the some of the responses on this thread have made me feel.

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I'll throw in a :wall::wall::wall::wall: myself.

Veronica

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Bella

I think most of the females in this forum have lost touch with the term "Cross Dressing" ..I think quite a few equate this to being trans gender because it is abused as that,under the TG /TS umbrella.. I don't think any "CDER" here is calling you females Transgender by saying you Crossdress. I know that women can wear a males shirt and still be just as femme while doing it than if she was wearing a dress and thats the point .. You are not wearing mens ( or clothing known for men ) to express being masculine .. To were us "Cder " while wearing female clothing do express being femme..

So in short if you are wearing a males shirt or pants you are crossdressing .. But if you are wearing males shirt or pants to emulate them you are expressing being Transgender.. The correct title for this thread should have been I am fed up just because we may wear clothing known to be worn by men, T-shirt ? Jeans? Doesn't mean we do it to be masculine!!

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I know what the term crossdressing means to a gender psychologists...I DID pay attention in my gender education/psychology classes. I am unfamiliar of your definition. I personally leave the defining to the people who have the authority to do so.

I generally don't bother with terms...but, now you have the ball rolling. Let's see what the gender therapists say. (Note that my book was written in 2007, so any addition past this point are not included).

"A crossdresser (or a transvestite) takes pleasure in wearing clothing of the other sex and is likely to achieve sexual gratification from doing so but may have no interest in having a sex change operation or in relating sexually to members of the same sex. [...] Transvestites generally crossdress for sexual arousal. Most are male. Transvestism is considered a psychological disorder only when the person meets all of the following conditions: 1. He/she is hetereosexual. 2. Has intense sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving dressing in the opposite sex's clothing. 3. AND is distressed by these fantasies, urges, or behaviors and they cause problems in his/her life. [...] Most transvestites begin to experiment with cding when they are young children or adolescents. Some feel guilty and uncomfortable about this preference, others do not. [...] Transvestites will often masturbate while wearing clothing of the opposite sex and/or makeup or while fondling specific items."- Exploring Dimension of Human Sexuality by Greenberg, Bruess, and Conklin. Bruess was my professor.

Yeah, I can pretty much say that this does not describe my sentiments towards a good pair of Levis.

Any other terms?

Furthermore, the term "transvestite" was modified to focus more on gender identity and less on just wearing clothing in the 1930s by Hirschfield because the current definition did not fit the people the he was studying.

Maybe you are thinking pre-1930s?

Terms shmerms, I say...but, real definitions of your terms are different from what you assign them as the layman. Or, they just come back to bite you in the butt.

Furthermore, I think these generalized definitions are made based on years of study and clinical experience. They do not mean that everyone fits this definition, but that it represents a majority. It does not, however, include the stupidity that is being voiced by people in a lot of denial as to what really is crossdressing and what is not.

How is that for defending the female gender on our supposed ignorance on crossdressing? It is true that having a vagina causes brain wave static and thus we can't be trusted or taken seriously, but I feel as though we have been spot on.

Lucy_Bella


No the title was correct thank you.


Some still do not get it and still insist that because we wear trousers/pants made for female we are crossdressing...TBH I'm getting tried of repeating myself....:brolleyes:

Me too. As fun as this thread was, it's time for me to move on. Thanks for bringing it up though. :hugs:

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

I know what the term crossdressing means to a gender psychologists...I DID pay attention in my gender education/psychology classes. I am unfamiliar of your definition. I personally leave the defining to the people who have the authority to do so.

I generally don't bother with terms...but, now you have the ball rolling. Let's see what the gender therapists say. (Note that my book was written in 2007, so any addition past this point are not included).

"A crossdresser (or a transvestite) takes pleasure in wearing clothing of the other sex and is likely to achieve sexual gratification from doing so but may have no interest in having a sex change operation or in relating sexually to members of the same sex. [...] Transvestites generally crossdress for sexual arousal. Most are male. Transvestism is considered a psychological disorder only when the person meets all of the following conditions: 1. He/she is hetereosexual. 2. Has intense sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving dressing in the opposite sex's clothing. 3. AND is distressed by these fantasies, urges, or behaviors and they cause problems in his/her life. [...] Most transvestites begin to experiment with cding when they are young children or adolescents. Some feel guilty and uncomfortable about this preference, others do not. [...] Transvestites will often masturbate while wearing clothing of the opposite sex and/or makeup or while fondling specific items."- Exploring Dimension of Human Sexuality by Greenberg, Bruess, and Conklin. Bruess was my professor.

Yeah, I can pretty much say that this does not describe my sentiments towards a good pair of Levis.

Any other terms?

Furthermore, the term "transvestite" was modified to focus more on gender identity and less on just wearing clothing in the 1930s by Hirschfield because the current definition did not fit the people the he was studying.

Maybe you are thinking pre-1930s?

Terms shmerms, I say...but, real definitions of your terms are different from what you assign them as the layman. Or, they just come back to bite you in the butt.

Furthermore, I think these generalized definitions are made based on years of study and clinical experience. They do not mean that everyone fits this definition, but that it represents a majority. It does not, however, include the stupidity that is being voiced by people in a lot of denial as to what really is crossdressing and what is not.

How is that for defending the female gender on our supposed ignorance on crossdressing? It is true that having a vagina causes brain wave static and thus we can't be trusted or taken seriously, but I feel as though we have been spot on.

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To correct you again..No crossdressing is a term used under the Gender umbrella for Trangender.. Many naval folks will concur to this as they pass over the equater they CROSSDRESS!! This does not make them Transgender thank you very much just as your glass maybe half empty mine is always half full agree to disagree..!! i NEVER said pants although known only in the past as a male attire only just as t shirts made specifically for women was considered crossdressing btw,,... So once again if you wear a shirt made for a man you would be xdressing do not put words in my mouth other than that.. At one time women where socially not permitted to wear jeans don't forget!!

I think I see where we are not seeing eye to eye on this term ..A crossdresser is someone who likes wearing clothing meant for the other sex ..Crossdressing is an act of wearing clothes of the opposite sex..

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

[...] Transvestites generally crossdress for sexual arousal. ......Transvestites will often masturbate while wearing clothing of the opposite sex and/or makeup or while fondling specific items."
Yeah, I can pretty much say that this does not describe my sentiments towards a good pair of Levis.

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One of the first hints I had that I wasn't a "garden variety CD' was when I responded to someone on USENET who mentioned masturbating in pnatyhose, my response was like:

"Ewwww! Doesn't that make like, an icky mess?" Then I believe I mentioned I didn't masturbate when dressed or at other times either, and though I sometimes got aroused, I didn't want the arousal. And of course my whole virginity/never been on a date thing.

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Furthermore, the term "transvestite" was modified to focus more on gender identity and less on just wearing clothing in the 1930s by Hirschfield because the current definition did not fit the people the he was studying.

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Last time I checked Hirschfeld's book was only widely available in the German..wonder if anyone's done a new translation that's easier to get a hold of. Always have wanted to read it.

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How is that for defending the female gender on our supposed ignorance on crossdressing?

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You are very knowledgeable...I bet most of the transfolk here have never even heard of Hirschfeld.

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It is true that having a vagina causes brain wave static and thus we can't be trusted or taken seriously,

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Ha ha ha ha.

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but I feel as though we have been spot on.

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Yes, yes you have.

Veronica

Jeepers, peeps! Wear the clothes you wear, for heaven's sake! What good does it do to claim women cross dress? What good does it do to claim women don't cross dress? It's bonkers!

Sarah x

After all this, "They're coming to take me away, HA HA. They're coming to take me away HO HO! To the perfect site! Where everything's wonderful ALL the time! Fighting and arguing, things of the past! Accepting, agreeing are hapnin at last! HA HA HO HO HEE HEE!

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Bella

To correct you again..No crossdressing is a term used under the Gender umbrella for Trangender.. Many naval folks will concur to this as they pass over the equater they CROSSDRESS!! This does not make them Transgender thank you very much just as your glass maybe half empty mine is always half full agree to disagree..!! i NEVER said pants although known only in the past as a male attire only just as t shirts made specifically for women was considered crossdressing btw,,... So once again if you wear a shirt made for a man you would be xdressing do not put words in my mouth other than that.. At one time women where socially not permitted to wear jeans don't forget!!

I think I see where we are not seeing eye to eye on this term ..A crossdresser is someone who likes wearing clothing meant for the other sex ..Crossdressing is an act of wearing clothes of the opposite sex..

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Lucy,

I'm sorry I have to correct YOU, As a SHELLBACK who has crossed the equator in the Grand Tradition of the Navy, The ceramony you speak of has no Crossdressers in it, what they have are actors portraying Neptune and his court, which has mermaids in it. I don't think acting and crossdressing are the same thing. Although after six months at sea those burly mermaids did look pretty good.

looks like seeking help from a gender therapist is out for me if i seek help in the future.going by their definition of being a transvestite.I dress most days,so its a wonder if not gone blind by now. My wifes away with a pair of mens socks on.oh hell I hope shes not stuffing them down there lol.ggs must despair of us sometimes

If a woman buys from the men section, she is crossdressing. If the man buys from the women section he is crossdressing. If the shop is not divided neither is crossdressing.

So buy used, problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

I know what the term crossdressing means to a gender psychologists...I DID pay attention in my gender education/psychology classes. I am unfamiliar of your definition. I personally leave the defining to the people who have the authority to do so.

I generally don't bother with terms...but, now you have the ball rolling. Let's see what the gender therapists say. (Note that my book was written in 2007, so any addition past this point are not included).

"A crossdresser (or a transvestite) takes pleasure in wearing clothing of the other sex and is likely to achieve sexual gratification from doing so but may have no interest in having a sex change operation or in relating sexually to members of the same sex. [...] Transvestites generally crossdress for sexual arousal. Most are male. Transvestism is considered a psychological disorder only when the person meets all of the following conditions: 1. He/she is hetereosexual. 2. Has intense sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving dressing in the opposite sex's clothing. 3. AND is distressed by these fantasies, urges, or behaviors and they cause problems in his/her life. [...] Most transvestites begin to experiment with cding when they are young children or adolescents. Some feel guilty and uncomfortable about this preference, others do not. [...] Transvestites will often masturbate while wearing clothing of the opposite sex and/or makeup or while fondling specific items."- Exploring Dimension of Human Sexuality by Greenberg, Bruess, and Conklin. Bruess was my professor.

Yeah, I can pretty much say that this does not describe my sentiments towards a good pair of Levis.

Any other terms?

Furthermore, the term "transvestite" was modified to focus more on gender identity and less on just wearing clothing in the 1930s by Hirschfield because the current definition did not fit the people the he was studying.

Maybe you are thinking pre-1930s?

Terms shmerms, I say...but, real definitions of your terms are different from what you assign them as the layman. Or, they just come back to bite you in the butt.

Furthermore, I think these generalized definitions are made based on years of study and clinical experience. They do not mean that everyone fits this definition, but that it represents a majority. It does not, however, include the stupidity that is being voiced by people in a lot of denial as to what really is crossdressing and what is not.

How is that for defending the female gender on our supposed ignorance on crossdressing? It is true that having a vagina causes brain wave static and thus we can't be trusted or taken seriously, but I feel as though we have been spot on.

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This whole comment is just awesome! I thought I was the only one that payed attention in that class!

To the 1930's comment, They would have to be thinking pre-1930's. After all, they are insinuating that pants aren't an appropriate garment for women.