Debunking: "I like women's clothes"

I am one of those people that would say I enjoy wearing woman's clothes. To get to you question as to why I enjoy, as dressing as a woman I can remove all of my body hair (yes I know I could lie and say I am a bike cycle rider or swimmer), I can wear nail polish on my toenails. I am one of the few that enjoy wearing pantyhose when dressed as a woman; I also enjoy wearing makeup and perfume. When I get right down to it I can honestly say it is a fetish as much as I hate to say it. Because once I am dressed as a woman it won’t be long before I am masturbating to the image I see in the mirror, then the shame comes around that has been instructed into us. After three or four hours I am ready to do it all over again.

I like women's clothes. Hmmm... for me it's not so much about the clothing as what the clothes do for me. It's like going out to play when a kid. I find my energy goes way up. That energy is more of a, "omg" and the ol' nervousness that comes with doing something I was brought up to be wrong. It is quite exciting. Yes, there is sexual excitement as well but not nearly as much now that I am older. When I was younger though, it was quite a sexual thing. Now, I really find putting on the clothing, make-up, nail polish, high heals, etc. give me a new perspective for the day. I am not the Male me, I am Vicki instead. I don't even prance like I used to. Instead I just do what ever I planned to do as if I had not put it all on. Watch tv, cook, clean, work on the computer, etc. I just don't go out. It's all an "At home only" thing. Then, at the end of the day, a shower and bed.

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Originally Posted by Asche

I don't think you are ever going to really understand this. There are lots of things about other people that don't make sense to me (but seem to make sense to them) and never will. At some point, I have to just accept that my not understanding those things doesn't make them any less real or true -- to do otherwise is an act of essential disrespect.

I don't find your not understanding oppressive. I do find your attitude that you are entitled to an explanation that makes sense to you in your terms (and that ones that don't are "bunk") oppressive. Especially since you have the weight of "normal" society on your side.


Try Googling "JAQing off" for some background on why "merely asking questions" isn't necessarily an innocent activity.

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My post touched a raw nerve and I apologize. I'm not emotionally vested in any outcome of the discussion, I honestly don't feel as if I am "entitled" to anything, and it truly was a point of discussion for me and for most of the people who responded. Maybe the next time, Asche, you can just ignore these threads if you are taking them personally.

FYI, I do support my SO unconditionally, we go out dressed in public together frequently and we have a good time, and I do not consider the CDing abnormal in terms of mental health issues, nor do I consider it pathological, deviant, or any other pejorative term, no matter the motives for dressing. At the same time I do recognize that a small percentage of men crossdress compared to the whole so in terms of strictly numbers, it is not widespread and therefore not a behavior that is average on the numbers scale. But, neither is genius. Only a very small percentage of the population have an IQ above 130. :)

OK, the title of my post is sort of silly but really, I could draw a parallel to my music life. To say I play guitar because I like how notes sound would be equally over-simplified. Lots of people like music. I meet tons of people who say "I love music" or "I'd love to play the guitar." Bullsh**. They don't love it because they won't marry it. When you practice up to 6-7 hours a day (in my youth) and you have to purchase certain instruments because they just have something that no other has and you spend thousands of hours on it in lessons, money, time, commitments, pain, massage therapy, acupuncture, your love is manifested with something else: commitment.

Or maybe obsession? I don't know. All I know is that I must do it and do it well. Ultimately, the way it sounds is everything.

CDing is the same. The motive is primal and really, is there anyone here who really doesn't acknowledge that we are profoundly different from mainstream folks?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

[...]None of the other activities are hidden from employers, wives, children, neighbors, friends, and community members.[...]

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Actually, if you've hung with other musicians, we hide our activities from employers and especially when dating at times because musicians carry a stigma now. I've met a lot of women who will shut it down immediately if they learn you are one. It can be wise to keep this from employers also as many have had bad experiences with musicians in the past. It usually takes a lot of explaining of what I am too as I do basically a type of orchestra pit work primarily at church but also plays and even funerals. In other words, I'm not an entertainer. I'm in the back making it happen behind the scenes.

I also hide how I make a living. Not because it's bad or illegal. But when I tell people how I actually do it, they can't get their heads around it and it can freak some people out. It's the same with royalties. Most people can't separate their income from a clock. When you try to explain how it works to collect money for stuff you've done in the past, some people get really weird about it like it's wrong or something. I know it sounds strange but it's happened to me. It's that same thing where people resent sports stars because they make a lot of money. Once you understand how an artistic or athletic career works, you get that they have to because their career lifespan is very very limited.

I think the pay-off is feeling feminine.

Many of us have spent a significant amount of time denying and suppressing feeling feminine. I remember being @5 (and alone at the time), sitting down and thinking "I'm sitting like a girl, I can't do that, I have to sit like a boy! etc... Then discovering some girl's clothes and trying them on, and loving how they feel (I'm quite fond of nylon and silk). Catching yourself in the mirror and loving how you look, feeling euphoric. Then undressing, vowing to never do it again. Then not being able to stop thinking and fantasizing about doing it again!

Page seven.

Reine......what do you like about being a female? ....you know, being a girl?

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Originally Posted by NathalieX66

Page seven.

Reine......what do you like about being a female? ....you know, being a girl?

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Having lots of patience. :D

I enjoy being in touch with my emotions, having a tender heart sometimes yet being super aggressive, stubborn, and competitive at other times, being a mom, having men admire me (when I was younger), feeding the people I love, being a mom to people who are not my kids, making love to my SO, talking with my girlfriends, approaching life with a "let's find solutions for the greater good" attitude, leaning on someone sometimes, being leaned on for my strength at other times, and so much more that I can't think of at the moment. I don't think I'm describing being a woman so much as being a human being?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I don't think I'm describing being a woman so much as being a human being?

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I was going to say, Reine . . .

Yes Reine you are describing a human being. Sadly some of the things you describe are thought to be less than manly. I always feared being thought of as less Than manly. Even though I am emotional, tender hearted and fell the need to be nurturing to my family and others, I felt I must repress those feeling to be accepted as a manly man. As I have said before I believe men must live in a very narrow part of the gender spectrum. Such emotion as describe above put one outside the given boundaries.

Yesterday I had my toes done. The color I selected is a beautiful shade of pink,maybe a little towards the red side. I chose it not because it looked or made me feel "girlie" (I hate that word) but because it truly touched me in a way I cannot describe. Two weeks ago I was in Charming Charlie's and saw an owl necklace that touched me once again in a way I cannot explain. I love to wear it, my wife thinks it's silly but for some reason it feels good. As a man I would never looked twice or even allow myself to consider these things. I would run the other way as fast as I could for fear I would be considered less than a man.

Now back to the clothes. There are items of women's clothes that affect me in the same way as the thing above. I like them, they are pretty. I love the way women look and the way their clothes accentuate their body. I like to think that perhaps I can emulate that (in my own mind). Lastly when I am dressed it's OK to be emotional, tender hearted and nurturing. It brings about a feeling of contentment and I feel it's OK to like things that I shouldn't and express myself in ways I shouldn't. The clothes are kind of a crutch to help me break free of the social standards that don't fit me. They also allow me to fulfill my fantasy of being pretty.

I have lived most of my life trying to fit the social mold that Defines a man. I now want to finish my life being who I really am. So why women's clothes, their pretty and I just like them.

Social Damaged (lol)
Kelley

After catching up reading the most recent posts, I had to go back to see what the original question was, as topics can get sidetracked.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

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There is a TV ad in which a woman states "I honestly loved smoking". Horse manure, I thought to myself. As a former smoker (smoke free 20+ years) I remember that the "enjoyment" of smoking was really getting my nicotine fix that my body demanded, especially at times like sitting through a meeting that lasted longer than the fix I got from my last smoke. Attention to the meeting was distracted by thoughts of when I might get to smoke again. The TV ad I mentioned was for a product to help break the smoking addition. With some authority, I'll never believe that smokers just love to smoke. There's a deeper reason.
It's not my intention to equate a smoking addiction to a crossdressing compulsion, but rather to agree that there is a deeper reason than "I just like the clothes".
The "why" is denial.

I think many here are impressing their own feelings on the entire spectrum of crossdressing. I have ZERO interest in being female, don't own a wig, never wear makeup. I am 100% in it for the clothes. I get ostracised from both communities for being outside their norm. The variety, the textures, the fabrics, etc.. are all interesting to me. I spend more time looking at the fashions than who they are on. Part of it is that it is officially denied to me.

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Originally Posted by willnotwill

I think many here are impressing their own feelings on the entire spectrum of crossdressing. I have ZERO interest in being female, don't own a wig, never wear makeup. I am 100% in it for the clothes. I get ostracized from both communities for being outside their norm. The variety, the textures, the fabrics, etc.. are all interesting to me. I spend more time looking at the fashions than who they are on. Part of it is that it is officially denied to me.

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I think my motive is not to pigeon hole anyone but try to reach a deeper understanding of it for myself with the assumption that if I'm lucky, it might even resonate for some others. There are many different approaches here and I'm OK with all of them. For me, it's about 50% clothes and 50% feeling feminine. I love that for some it's one or the other. I love that I wonder where I'll be with it in a year from reading all the different approaches. I'm for diversity. I'm for training myself to accept diversity. I celebrate authenticity.

Why must we have to be seeking a "feminine identity" when we crossdress, or else it must be a fetish and it is done soley to arouse. For me it started with the clothes. One day when I was in nursery school I wore my sister's underwear to school one day and it felt great (and not in a sexual way, more of the it felt right). Another time, around the same age I had to try on the wedding dress in my sisters' dress up chest to see how it felt to have it "on," and again it felt good. Next was a slip...

There was no tucking, no thinking I want to pretend to be a girl, no sense of I want to relinquish male power/gain female power, merely exploring the clothes. Today I have forms and have to say that they make the clothes fit better. I have a wig because I like to wear my clothes outside of my house at night away from people so that a form with long hair in a dress does not call too muuch attention to itself.

I do not have a female persona that I am trying to embody. I am not trying to hide my masculinity. I am still drawn to the clothes and as Dr. Seuss might say I like to wear them in the house, with a mouse, at the park, in the dark... Would that make me a fetish dresser if I am not seeking to climax or have any other experience than walking around dressed? I don't think so. I would argue that I am somewhere on the crossdressing continuum and resent the idea that it cannot be about the clothes for some us, but that there must be a deeper more transexual reason for dressing.

Personally I liked the person who mentioned the possibility that they had been a woman in a past life to descibe their desire to dress, because I could relate to that, because I have always wondered why the idea of me wearing the clothes of a woman felt "right" to me from such an early age. I also could imagine how clothes would feel on me from that early age. So the attraction of the clothes for me is real and I do not think that there is a great deeper meaning that I am failing to grasp, but I am sure others here will be more than happy to debunk my beliefs.

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Originally Posted by happy2cd

Why must we have to be seeking a "feminine identity" when we crossdress, or else it must be a fetish and it is done soley to arouse. For me it started with the clothes. One day when I was in nursery school I wore my sister's underwear to school one day and it felt great (and not in a sexual way, more of the it felt right). Another time, around the same age I had to try on the wedding dress in my sisters' dress up chest to see how it felt to have it "on," and again it felt good. Next was a slip...

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This is not an attempt to define you, but to generally point out that fetishes do begin in childhood. They just don't start at puberty. And not all fetishes are sexual.

Great question ReinD, even though I do not want SRS I identify more as a female than male, if I could live full time as a woman I would, at this time I cannot. for me it is more than just the clothes, they are a part of the equation. When I am dressed enfemme, I am very outgoing and self confident, when I am dressed as a male I am more unsure and shy. when I am unable to dress enfemme for long periods of time, I become very depressed, it can become paralyzing at times. When I am finally able to dress it is like a whole new world for me, I feel free to be me. My friends and family who have known me all my life tell me that when I am dressed enfemme, my personality blossems and that I have alot of self confidence. it is hard to explain why we dress, it is like describing the flavor of salt. When I dress enfemme it is more than just the clothes, it is the feminine image, (dress, makeup, hair, etc etc.). Dressing enfemme makes me feel better about myself, it is like going to paradise for me. It does NOT arrouse me at all. I hope that explains it better, as I am speaking for myself, for I cannot speak for the others here on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Dena

I think the pay-off is feeling feminine. Many of us have spent a significant amount of time denying and suppressing feeling feminine. I remember being @5 (and alone at the time), sitting down and thinking "I'm sitting like a girl, I can't do that, I have to sit like a boy! etc... Then discovering some girl's clothes and trying them on, and loving how they feel (I'm quite fond of nylon and silk). Catching yourself in the mirror and loving how you look, feeling euphoric. Then undressing, vowing to never do it again. Then not being able to stop thinking and fantasizing about doing it again!

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There it is. And I think for most, that's what they are targeting, to feel something 'different', whether as a sexual turn on, or an escape from physical sensations that men feel. Because no men really know what it is like to 'feel feminine', they substitute the tactile sensations of the clothes, and then try to emulate the behavior of women as they think women behave and feel, based solely on observation (and sadly, most men's powers of observation are severly limited by misinterpretation of what they see).

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Originally Posted by happy2cd

Why must we have to be seeking a "feminine identity" when we crossdress, or else it must be a fetish and it is done soley to arouse. . .

I would argue that I am somewhere on the crossdressing continuum and resent the idea that it cannot be about the clothes for some us, but that there must be a deeper more transexual reason for dressing.

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I think this is the source of the misunderstanding and antagonism that this thread has aroused. Reine can speak for herself, of course (if she's not heartily sick of this thread at this point), but in her OP I myself didn't find any suggestion that a CDer must be seeking a "feminine identity" or has "transexual" or fetish reasons for dressing. I took it that she was asking for reasons, not suggesting them.

One thing I've got from this forum is that many, many (if not all) CDers state that they identify as male and have no wish to be female. In fact, this is stated so often that I've come to take it as the definition of a CDer (in contrast to someone like me): a man who enjoys wearing women's clothing but has no desire to be a woman.

Now this has always raised questions in my mind. "OK, I accept you have no desire to be a woman. No problem. But what ultimately motivates you to dress in women's clothing?"

Why this question should offend a CDer is something I don't understand. If someone asks me about my motives, I don't take offence. I'm living full-time as a transperson these days. If someone asked me, "Why do you want to live as a 'woman'?", my reply would be, "Good question. I don't really understand it myself. I wish I did." And then I'd give them a summary of what I've learned about the results of current research. But I wouldn't get offended. In fact, a few people have asked me questions, and I answered them as best I could.

Simply asking a CDer what his ultimate motives are (a question which, in my view, can't really be answered these days) doesn't imply that he must be "seeking a feminine identity". If there are CDers who've made that or a similar assumption on this thread, my opinion is that they've misconstrued the question.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

There it is. And I think for most, that's what they are targeting, to feel something 'different', whether as a sexual turn on, or an escape from physical sensations that men feel. Because no men really know what it is like to 'feel feminine', they substitute the tactile sensations of the clothes, and then try to emulate the behavior of women as they think women behave and feel, based solely on observation (and sadly, most men's powers of observation are severly limited by misinterpretation of what they see).

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Hi, Lexi! It depends on what you mean by "no men". Are you talking about CDers here, or anyone whose birth-sex is male? Because if you're talking about the latter, I'd disagree with your statement. I know very well what it's like to feel feminine. It's something I've felt constantly over these last three months ever since I decided to come out of hiding and start living as myself.

These feelings don't spring from any observations I've made of GG's or any attempt to imitate them. They come from within me. I'm not trying to feel or behave as I think a GG would. I'm feeling and behaving as myself, feeling and doing things that were always latent in me but which I always repressed.

I think anyone who wants to assert that I'm kidding myself, that I'm not truly feeling feminine, is going to have a hard time proving his case. He's going to have to find some way of pinning down and describing what a GG feels and then show that that's not what I feel. How do you get inside a GG's heart and discern exactly what her feelings are, and how do you get inside my heart and discern exactly what my feelings are?

But a GG has a totally different experience in life than I do, so it stands to reason that her feelings must be different from mine. Therefore, my feelings can't possibly be feminine, right? But every GG has a different experience from every other GG in the world, so they all must have somewhat different feminine feelings. Which one do we use as our benchmark?

And this also ignores the nature of TGism. Are we going to deny that a transexual has feminine feelings? Then I think we're denying the reality of transexualism as a phenomenon.

I know what I feel these days--things very different from what I felt when living in the drab old male world. I call these feelings "feminine". If GG's or anybody else want to say that my feminine feelings can't possibly be like theirs, I wouldn't argue the case. How would I know what their feelings are? But how would they know what my feelings are? And in any case, what GG's feel is simply irrelevant to me. I'm not trying to pattern myself on them anyway. I'm going my own way, being feminine on my own terms. I don't see the need to measure myself against anybody else. My femininity is personal. Whether it matches anybody else's idea of the term means nothing to me.

Best wishes, Annabelle

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

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Because, for those people, there aren't any.

I think sometimes it's possible to overthink on the subject of wearing women's clothes.

I think it is hard to work out the deeper reasons behind cross dressing. Why do women like wearing mens clothes? It's because they can and so it should be the same for men wanting to wearing womens clothes.

Maria

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Originally Posted by Foxglove

That's because those of us who dress more modestly don't post photos.

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Or perhaps aren't crossdressers, to your earlier point. At 56 and having started to wear female clothing pre-school, I took my first picture last year, using it as my avatar for a while.

I not only wear flats, I LIKE flats. I don't own a single pair of heels and am not especially interested in acquiring any.

Well after reading and thinking a lot -- really at the root of it for me is I would really like to expierence being a woman, but the reality of it is ...it ain't gonna happen so wearing the clothes and accepting who you are is the reality of why I dress .............................Debra

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Originally Posted by Kerstin

Because, for those people, there aren't any.

I think sometimes it's possible to overthink on the subject of wearing women's clothes.

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Kerstin, have you read the other parts of my post and my subsequent posts?

To recap since this thread is rather long, there is an awful lot of risk involved for most CDers who are fully or partially closeted: marriages, other relationships, and jobs should people find out, not to speak of the discomfort experienced when plans go awry and a planned dressing session is cancelled, plus the sheer stress involved in keeping such a secret for so long. CDers purge, they have close calls, they wonder where to hide their stuff, buying it is a hassle, they lie by default (if they are closeted), they insulate themselves so as to not have others know, they have to constantly work around other people's schedules, or if they are single and closeted, many choose to stay single and some even become socially isolated. Or, the CDing becomes a white elephant in their lives with a DADT policy, which is far from being comfortable as well.

... all that just because someone cannot find the fabrics and the colors they like in men's clothes? Men's clothes which, I might add, also come in silk, angora, fine wool and other soft fabrics, and in colors other than blue, gray, and brown.

Just for grins, I hope it's okay if I throw in a FACT? Women have indoor plumbing ... and men have outdoor plumbing.

No one ever seems to mention that... or bring it up?

How about another FACT? Women's "underwear" comes in at least double [if not 3 or 4 or 5 times] as many vaireties of fabrics, cuts/styles, colors etc. as men's? At least in every store I have ever been in. I admit I have not been in every store on the planet...

Certainly MEN, with our "outdoor plumbing" would have a greater understanding of "comfort" in underwear than any GG ever could? I mean men do all have different sized "packages" just as all women DO have different sizes and shapes of breasts. Clearly GGs would be experts on bras but IMO are in no position to judge comfort of underwear like any man could. Yes, I am only talking about underwear but every shut door is cracked open temporarily before it can be opened fully... and most threads DO say that most all the CDers started with women's undies do they not?

I think any "sharp" person, male or female would wear whatever "undergarments" [that they have tried] they find the most comfortable? Regardless of the label or which department it came from?

I know where I work, we are not required to give anyone full disclosure on our underwear choice. Seems like wearing what we find comfortable is a no brainer? Or should be.

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Originally Posted by Wildaboutheels

I know where I work, we are not required to give anyone full disclosure on our underwear choice. Seems like wearing what we find comfortable is a no brainer? Or should be.

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Yes, except that there's nothing a cisguy would find more humiliating to wear than panties, with the possible exception of a bra. Comfort wouldn't be the only criterion. And anyway, depending on the cut of the panties and how much lebensraum they provide, they might not be terribly comfortable.

Annabelle

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Originally Posted by ReineD

[...] all that just because someone cannot find the fabrics and the colors they like in men's clothes? Men's clothes which, I might add, also come in silk, angora, fine wool and other soft fabrics, and in colors other than blue, gray, and brown.

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Your point isn't lost on me. Your title is correct also. I like a nice shiny car too but I haven't waxed mine in 5 years or so (it needs a wash right now too)! The little societal/legal changes involving drinking (DUI checkpoints, advertising, legal risks of drinking and driving, social risks of being seen as irresponsible, or just getting into situations due to poor judgement, health risks) have seriously cut into my alcohol consumption and I actually don't really care. The consequences for being outed as a CDer are way heavier for me and that hasn't deterred me at all. You are correct, there's more going on here than a simple preference for soft silky fabrics.