Transgender = Transsexual ???? Since When?

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Oh and I thought the TSs just didn't want anyone to get the same treatment they were looking for. Why DO TSs not like CDs and vice versa? I don't get it Guess it's the left over hippie in me.



And yet...you are reading the MtF part of this forum and commenting in it. If you believe all that, why use a forum where people talk about transitioning from male to female or female to male if you are (were) always a woman? Seems that the forum is to help people get to the point of where they are going. :idontknow:

I am constantly amazed by the infighting as I said. NO ONE IS MORE T than anyone else. ":facepalm:

It was a progression for me. Yes I always considered myself female BUT I needed and received help and guidance from people, CDs and TSs on these boards. Maybe the answer is if you don't like how some people don't have your perspective you should stay in other sections? I am here, as a TS, with the hope and desire to help, inform, support ANY person who is TG. Consider the two letters to mean what you will. You don't don't like what people say, don't read it.

Nothing is life is 100% but I am sure there are men here who are all man, in silk.

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over and over you choose to misunderstand my words..over and over you pick and choose parts of my words to put them out of context
there's really nothing i can possibly do about that except to repeat them and hope others at least don't fall for it..

you bring up the sad "more T than you" trope... .that is the last thing i am about... you pick things i say and take them out of context to make it look different...if you can't quote my whole post and speak to it..please just leave it alone....you do this all the time.

there is no More trans than you, but apparently there is a holier/nicer/better than you...

in fact that is my problem with TG=TS... its sets us all up for failure and bad feelings that you exploit to show how wonderful you are
TS is not more T than anything... it is its own thing...it is a different thing... the idea that transsexuals often learn about themselves in a terribly sad and non constructive way is partially because of this so called umbrella...

i never said i don't like anybody...it is just the opposite and i'm sick of you telling me otherwise...apparently you don't like me..whatever...
...what you should really do Lorileah is apologize to me.

If you don't you don't deserve to respond to my posts




i'm here because i spent 1000's of posts here identifying as a crossdresser...identifying as TG.... i know there are many others like me, some of them posting here..
identifying as TG did nothing to cure or mitigate my gender dysphoria...i was surrounded by tg people telling me i was just ashamed of dressing and to relax and enjoy life...

I like everybody
all i care about is curing gender dysphoria...and i have helped many many people
I know cd's suffer it too and frankly the last thing they need to worry about is being told that they might really be ts...

and to Reine's point, once again...the men here that know they are men...that love wearing dresses and hose...they have every right to self identify as men...i never said differently...i don't think they are transgendered either but how does that mean i dislike or don't support them??

I am ambivalent about terms. I use them interchangeably depending on the audience. I care less how people how people internally identify. We have members that declare they are Ts yet are not interested in transitioning. I don't understand that logic but hey whatever. Despite their declaration they are unable if unwilling to give up male privilege and it shows in their posting.

There is a difference that evident from transitioning individuals and those that present part time. I stopped going to events that have large numbers of cross dresser a. Not because I don't like them. But from my experience they are men in dresses from their actions and how they tend to leave the woman's room a mess. I'm embarrassed to be in their company when a cisgender female walks in

This observation is not a reflection on cross dressers in small groups or as individuals. I will be more than happy to defend anyone that wishes to show an alternate identity presentation.

Unfortunately we live in a binary society. Society is slowly starting to be exposed to trans identities. Acceptance will be slow. But in the meantime for those of us with female identities that means integrating to as close as possible to cisgenders.

I will use a term my friend Misty coined a while ago. I am a transitioner. When I complete transition and the world accepts me as female, then I'm female and will continue to live my life as such. Transitioning at a late age. Stealth is not an option. I don't volunteer, but I won't deny either and if questions are asked. I will answer them honestly.

It's s complicated subject and we have many members that live in various gender identities. In many ways I think it is more difficult to live in the middle and confusing for those they interact with. I'm not speaking of those that live in separate worlds ( that has its own issues), but those that present as different genders to this they interact with on a daily basis. That has to be very confusing.

I can only speak for myself and how I am living my life. I can only relate to those that have or are experiencing issues I have, presently or will in the future.

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Originally Posted by emma5410

Many here talk about Transgender and how we should all belong as if it was some kind of movement. But if it is what has it achieved?

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You're right -- transgender is not a movement. You don't get to opt in. And you don't get to opt out. It's a label and others, who need such a label, define it and apply it to you. You can argue the definition (clearly.) But we both come from the "born into a male body / don't accept the male gender" group which is "transgender." And if you're uncomfortable mingling with the crossdressers, gender-fluid, genderqueer, gender-non-conforming folks you share an umbrella with, take heart that you have "transsexual" which has it's own distinctive characteristics which are much better understood than the rest of us.


What has it achieved? In other words, "what's in it for me?" Perhaps you didn't live through the latter half of the 20th century. If you had, you'd note that many things have changed. In general being transgender has become less dangerous than it used to be. (In some countries.) The police no longer beat transgender people for coming to them to report having been assaulted. People who assault transgender folks are now treated as criminals, not as heroes. You can go to a doctor, announce "I'm a transgender" and he'll have a slight-to-reasonable chance of knowing what it is you're talking about. More than that, he won't immediately have you put in an asylum and treated with electroshock therapy. You can, in certain circumstances, go to your employer -- even if your employer is a government agency -- and announce your gender identity and instead of being fired on the spot, get assistance in establishing yourself in a new role. Those achievements have been gained by all transgender folks, including transsexuals. They didn't come easy. And they wouldn't have come at all if we had to get them for six or seven subgroups separately. And, frankly, there are still places in the world where you can be killed for being "a man in a dress" and nobody cares if you were transsexual or a crossdresser. It's to change those places we need a larger presence than any one of us would have alone.

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Originally Posted by Alex!

DeeAnn, it may be hard to believe, but it is true that you can be a crossdresser and identify 100% as male. I am a case in point. Crossdressing is not just a behavior expressed by those with gender dysphoria. It is also a sexual behavior or a behavior that can trace its genesis to a sexual fetish that has since evolved into something more emotionally complex, but still not related to gender dysphoria.

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The question is simply this:

Of all of the ways in which one might express a sexual fetish, why does it involve crossing a gender boundary? Now, I'm not expecting you to answer as it is a very complex question; not unlike the "Why do you crossdress?" question. But, it is certainly true that there are many ways of expressing and deriving pleasure from a fetishistic point of view. Yet, there remains something fascinating about that one in particular.

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

please be specific...please say exactly what it is that you lose out on when i assert my actual identity instead of some made up media driven oversimplification?

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Personally, how you think of yourself is your business. But, the process of consciously separating yourself from the rest of the community is not useful. It doesn't help you or us. It almost feels like what you would get if lesbians separated themselves from gays.

I've been a member of our LGBT employee affinity group for almost 12 years. Among other things, I have supported and worked towards getting our company to include transgender benefits in our health coverage. They did a few years ago and this year they raised the dollar limit. Never say never, but I have no plans to transition. This coverage does not benefit me in any way, yet I felt it was significant enough to put effort into it. It was sufficient enough to understand that, for some people, their very lives are at stake. What else does one need to know?

But, what I do know is this. I know about 10 people who are somewhere along the path of transitioning; from just starting hormone replacement therapy to being post-op for years. Until they finally got a grip on the situation, it opened the door for all kinds of abhorrent behavior: sunstance abuse, sexual compulsions, depression, etc. Basically anything that would allow them to numb out or divert their attention elsewhere. In some respects, it is not unlike what happens for lesbians, gays and bisexuals. Eventually you reach a point where you can no longer run from or deny the reality.

Society at large exerts A LOT of pressure on us to conform; to fit in. However, the problem for those 'way at the end of the transgender scale is that there are not that many things you can do to deal with the issues; let alone fix them. I don't think you can really counsel around the issues. It would seem that significant action, of some sort, is required.

Oversimplification is not what's happening here. Simplification is; to a degree. For example, I could give people the following answer, in response to the question "What do you do?":

I am an automation generalist. I apply both flexible and fixed automation to production processes in order to improve production effiencies and product quality.

Or, I could just say: mechanical engineer

24 words versus 2

The former is more information than most need to know or understand. The latter is succinct and defines a set of behaviors and activities that most people can relate to.

Similarly, I would say that we all occupy the Tent of Transgender with crossdresssers at one end, transsexuals at the other and a multitude of gradients in between. This is really all the general public needs to know unless they are predisposed to ask for more detail. Extended definitions don't work when people don't really want to listen.

Endgame: the final stage of some action or process

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Originally Posted by emma5410

It it obviously a mystery to you because you clearly do not understand it DeeAnn. By the way most TS, but not all, become aware of their gender issues as small children not adolescents.

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Children have neither vocabulary nor context to understand what a transsexual is. About all they know is that their likes/dislikes and behaviors are different from the majority of their peers, but they don't know why. Boys can say they want to be a girl, but they have no idea what that statement really means and what it entails. This closely mimics the experience of those who eventually realize that they lesbian and gay. It's like the difference between recognizing symptoms and diagnosing an actual disease. The former is just based on observation, while the latter requires a degree of knowledge.

DeeAnn

DeeAnn,

Fair enough. The best I can come up with is this: A heterosexual boy going through puberty is not able to readily explore sex with a girl, and access to outlets like pornography is not always possible (especially true before the Internet). Some boys (like me) will stumble upon or explore wardrobes of moms, sisters, cousins, and the like, and curiosity may lead to trying things on, which then leads to unexpected sexual satisfaction. This is a common theme for a lot of my CD friends who do not believe they have gender dysphoria. Anyway, the habit evolves, no doubt enhanced by the thrill of doing something forbidden or "dangerous", and there is a tendency to step up the game, to push boundaries. Put another way, trying on a pair of panties a few times will be fun, but then it gets boring so you look for something more. Eventually, you go all out. But this is very hard to do growing up in a family, so "all up" probably doesn't happen until adulthood. By this point, dressing in feminine attire to get a charge has effectively been imprinted. It becomes a refuge of satisfaction, even if in a relationship with a woman. In a sense, the boy/man becomes the ultimate on-call "girlfriend", strictly compartmentalized. The alter ego is a superficial representation of a woman, not a reflection of a woman that is inside a man's body. Now, many societies, as we all well know, frown on this kind of thing, even if a lot of boys and men might secretly share in crossdressing behavior. The shame comes in part because of the concern in being perceived as a sissy or otherwise not virile. This is an important aspect, because as far as I'm concerned being a virile man is my comfort zone. Even though I enjoy crossdressing now and then, I would prefer it go away with a pill or something! Anyway, as for the shame, the Internet has helped because I realize now that many men share a similar history and interest, and I am not some sort of pervert or weirdo.

Another clue, at least in my case, is that when I'm fully dressed and out and about in public, I feel very uncomfortable and in a heightened state of awareness (but still fun, believe it or not). It's an odd mix of sexual arousal, feeling like a fraud, and being worried about how I am perceived by others. I am much more comfortable being myself, which is in guy mode seeking to attract women. I bring this up because I've heard that for many crossdressers, being dressed up makes them feel serene, at peace. Not me so much.

I realize that may not make sense to a lot of people. But this is essentially how this habit evolved for me. As a 47-year-old adult, crossdressing still provides a healthy charge. I still seek to "step it up" by going out and doing various new things alone or with friends (like restaurants, shopping and so forth), but I do see myself losing interest faster, taking breaks for many months at a time. I wish the urge would go away, but it is a part of me. I'm stuck with Alex. And she's expensive :D

Speaking purely from my own experience, as a kid, there was sexual aspect involved messing about with women's clothes and shoes. However, when all this was rekindled some years ago, I find that the more frequently I dress, the sexual aspect diminishes. It is an inverse relationship.

DeeAnn

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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

Just how many ways should we split ourselves into different groups? And for those who think that we should not be labeled, doesn't that just erase us as existing within any groups?

Seriously, I don't see how anyone would be harmed by any and all of us being included in one big (apparently unhappy) family. Then within that group we can have our own specialties. At least then maybe we could understand that we are at least all on the same team and could all stand up and support each other.

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Well, everyone IS included in one big family. It is called the Transgender umbrella. And for the purpose of explaining it to people not in this community, say a nosy waitress who asks, using "Transgender" is fine. She will think what she will think anyway, unless you are prepared to have a mega informative session with her while explaining your life in great detail.

But for the purpose of letting co-community members know who you are, I suggest dispensing with the labels (since everyone has a different definition) and instead say what you actually DO.

For example:

• I know that I look like a male and I am not interested in changing this with makeup, wig, etc when I go out. I'm comfortable being me and just wearing women's clothing.
• I identify as male, and present as a woman on occasion.
• I identify as a female, but choose to live as a male who presents as a woman on occasion.
• I consider myself gender fluid and I present in the gender that suits my given moods.
• I identify as a female and live full time as a woman except work. I do not plan on changing my male sexual functioning.
• I identify as a female and live full time as a woman. I am not interested in male sexual functioning.
• I identify as a female, live full time as a woman, have changed all my legal markers, and want to function sexually as a woman.
• I have no clue who I am. I'm working on it.

... or any variation of the above.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I identify as a female, live full time as a woman, have changed all my legal markers, and want to function sexually as a woman.

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This is so offensive. A lot of this stuff is no one's business. I don't ask people in the community their surgical status. It is no one's business who isn't planning on having sex with me.

Tell you what, I'll do this when you start telling people:

I identify as a woman. I was assigned female at birth. I have a vagina, and I still wish to function sexually as a woman. My legal documents indicate that I'm female. Which is neat, because from a young age, I always knew I was a woman. And all of that is great, because I'm a woman.

I think it is so wrong to expect people to talk about their surgical status.

its interesting paula
i think you fall into the we are all transgender/continuum trap..i know you earlier talked about it.
people talk about surgical status because they assume there is some kind hierarchy and continuum...that we are just guys that wanted to girls...and that we went all the way.....i know and you know this ain't right...

people say it like its GOOD to be simplistic to lump everybody together..they like self identification as a unalienable right but not neccessarily for others.
.Deann thinks its not worth the bother lorileah thinks i dont like transgendered people..others conflate supporting each other with a label (here's a label..people...we should support each other)
others somehow argue that labeling a diverse group of people as one thing expresses diversity..

if you'd just say "im transsexual" that should be it... A transsexual is a woman regardless of social or economic status...regardless of out or stealth..passing or not...and especially surgery hrt or not... some of us can't do HRT or surgery for health reasons for example...or perhaps just being frozen and terrified...some of us have not reached the stage where their life falls apart in devastating gender dysphoria (yet)... those people are all forced to accept this term that misidentifies and disbeleives them
its unneccesary

because people lump us all together things like surgical status and appearance end up being thrown into the idea of a continuum and the intellectual laziness of using the word transgender to label a very diverse group of people becomes apparent and problematic...because people look at the gender umbrella to be about flowing between or levels of gender you are faced with the assumption that how much you do to "be" female puts you on the continuum..you didn't go all the way?? why not?? so are you less female?? it stinks..its ridiculous...

that's why i reject it... (again i realize i'm kind of stuck with it for various reasons)


I actually think Reine has a good point up to the point of private things like surgery..
it really is what you do that matters... but what you do is really HOW YOU LIVE not what medical procedures you did..

even though i am hopped up on this point it only impacts me intellectualy...if people like the term i have to live with it...however i think it brings these moments into your life more than helps you..

i "went all the way".....and in the community of people here i get told i'm in some kind of hierarchy where i'm trannier than thou for talking about it...and my response is no i'm not in your peer group.
I'm TS...don't worry about it..i'm a woman..we both wear panties and that's cool..nothing to see here...
...and i get back ..no you have to accept that you are transgendered and then they call me trannier than thou for asserting my identity!!!!
well i am certainly more transsexual than them LOL...but nobody can be more transgendered, especially when they are not at all

anyway...apparently i'm stuck with the term transgendered and the idea that i am a man that decided to change into a woman...luckily that doesnt really enter my life except here and when i talk publicly...
i have got the questions and i calmly explain...i get more flak for it here than i get in the real world where it actually matters.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Well, everyone IS included in one big family. It is called the Transgender umbrella.
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Hmm.... Yeah that is my position on this issue as well. Have you even read through this post? There are a large number here that think that we should not include everyone under the transgender umbrella. I in fact quoted your supplied definition of TG in one of my replies. The problem is that not everyone here agrees with your supplied definition of TG.

the label/term causes confusion and creates the false impression that people evolve into transsexuals

the term is helpful IMO to describe people that id their gender identity as fluid or mixed..or perhaps unsure
CD Men have no feeling they are women...ts women have no feeling they are men..
yes its true that self knowledge is hard won sometimes and it causes anxiety and confusion..having a catch all label doesn't help with this..in fact it creates fear and uncertainty again only IMO

definitions change..medical terms evolve...the media is lazy and prurient ...

i am happy to be included in a large group of forward thinking people that support the rights of each person to safely express their gender identity...male, female or otherwise... apparently tho i must enjoy pushing water up a hill or i would just shut up about it!!! LOL

We can debate, discuss and argue about what we are and how we are understood by others till the cows come home. I think the value of the transgender "umbrella" grouping has at least of practical value to anyone who ventures out in the world in any gender-variant way - strength in numbers. It's about being able live and do as you want without being discriminated-against, bullied or murdered. It doesn't matter if you "feel like a man", some people are still going to treat you unfairly.

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

I actually think Reine has a good point up to the point of private things like surgery..
it really is what you do that matters... but what you do is really HOW YOU LIVE not what medical procedures you did..

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Thanks, Kaitlyn. But in my post, I specified that the more detailed explanations (all the bulleted examples) would be reserved for co-community members, namely co-community members here and in support groups where the discussions about medical procedures are indeed at the forefront of conversations!

In no way did I suggest telling the world at large whether someone has a penis or not. As I said in my first paragraph, I think simply saying "Transgender" is fine ... except of course with a prospective sexual partner, who would want to know all the details.

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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

Have you even read through this post? There are a large number here that think that we should not include everyone under the transgender umbrella. I in fact quoted your supplied definition of TG in one of my replies. The problem is that not everyone here agrees with your supplied definition of TG.

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Actually, this is not my definition. I never would presume to tout my own definitions as "definitive" anything.

This definition is in the Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender-Nonconforming People, Version 7, published in the International Journal of Transgenderism (2011), Appendix A: Glossary, page 221. Medical people throughout the world are supposed to follow the guidelines in this document for the care of members of the Transgender community. I had created a post of all the definitions from Appendix A on October 26, 2011, in an attempt to stop the in-fighting here among members about term definitions.

But, now I think like everyone else, there is no way to get people in this forum to agree, despite what the professionals say. So I think it best (for the purpose of identifying oneself to other members of the community in discussions about this very topic) to define what you do and not try to attach just a single word to it, since doing so will bring to mind a banana in one person's mind, and a stapler in another's. lol

Here's the original WPATH document:

http://www.wpath.org/uploaded_files/...0SOC,%20V7.pdf


<edit>
Here's my original post with a summary of the WPATH definitions. I thought I'd post it here in case people don't feel like sifting through the rather large PDF document above:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ed-Definitions

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

its interesting paula
i think you fall into the we are all transgender/continuum trap..i know you earlier talked about it.

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I don't think it's a "trap" at all. I take a deliberate philosophical stance on this matter, after a great deal of thought on the matter. I understand your point on this:

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

people say it like its GOOD to be simplistic to lump everybody together..they like self identification as a unalienable right but not neccessarily for others.

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I simply disagree with it.

I have no problem with how people self-identify. In fact, I think some of the labels under "the transgender umbrella" are all very useful:
- drag queen
- drag king
- feminine man
- stone butch
- crossdresser
- gender queer

And I'll grant you that I felt somewhat erased that there wasn't a nicer word than "transsexual," with all it's inherent historical problems to describe those of us who do a whole bunch of stuff to transition.

The problem is - us "transsexuals" are all anyone really knows anything about, and because of the history of tying legal rights for transgender people to medical and surgical status, there does not need to be a word to describe us. There just doesn't - because as soon as there is, some dirt-bag legislator will try to pass laws based on this definition that ultimately hurt all of us. I spent some amount of effort this spring fighting crap like this in my state - there were four bills that specifically targeted transgender people in specific, and 23 that overall tried to harm LGBT people in general. One sixth of all the anti-LGBT bills that were introduced this year in states happened here in Texas.

So my point is that this stuff is real, and these people are after us. Maybe they'll calm down, but that isn't assured - marriage equality is liable to stir the hornet's nest. I wish none of this were true, but unfortunately, it is true, and these things represent a direct assault on our ability to survive as transgender people in these states. It is really that serious.

The problem is that when you have nice, tidy defining labels, these people have and will use them to write laws that define us. Given their history, malice, and cluelessness towards us, we do not want laws that try to divide us up. We just don't.

For example, here in Texas, by all reasonable logic, I ought to be able to marry my boyfriend. Yeah, we are both trans. I'm MtF, he's FtM - my birth certificate says "M", his says "F". Despite our unconventional appearances from the perspectives of a county clerk, we ought to be able to marry. However, despite all that, there are genetic issues with us - we both have "Y" chromosomes. So we might not be able to marry here until marriage equality happens. This is broken beyond any logic.

And look - a lot of us are from states where you can't change your birth certificate, not really (thanks Texas), but live in states that require you to change your birth certificate to be able to change your name and gender marker on state ID. The catch-22's and generally screwed up messes many of us find ourselves in are all caused by the patchwork of laws that try to define and regulate gender. This stuff just needs to be removed from virtually all of our laws.

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

I actually think Reine has a good point up to the point of private things like surgery..
it really is what you do that matters... but what you do is really HOW YOU LIVE not what medical procedures you did..

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Why does any of this matter? Here's some situations in life, what does my history as a trans woman have to do with any of this:
1. I apply for a job?
2. I travel through an airport?
3. I meet someone casually, or at work?
4. I apply for state identification or licenses? (why do they need to know my gender at all - there's a picture of meright there!)
5. I get a marriage license?
6. I choose to donate blood?
7. I'm stopped for a routine traffic stop?
8. I go on a date with someone? (I've never slept with them - and I may not.)
9. I meet another trans person in a support group?

I might and probably would disclose things about myself in that context because it might be helpful to others in attendance who are new. I NEVER inquire someone else's medical status unless I am trying to help them get medical care. I do not talk about, nor speculate on, what anyone else does, will do, or has done in the past. I strongly discourage such talk about others. Obviously people are free to talk about themselves. And if the do, so be it, but I have seen real harm come from this stuff.

For example, there is a woman in my group who is non-hormone, non-op. (We've talked about it.) She has felt ashamed to be part of the group because she isn't medically able to do some of the things the rest of us can medically. She didn't attend the group for a very long time because of this. I had to sit her down and tell her as far as I was concerned, she's just a woman, just exactly like the rest of us.

The distinction between someone who does transition and someone who does not transition really doesn't buy you *anything* in the situations above, except that all of them run into state / federal rules where people have created rules seemingly solely for the reason of making rules.

Obviously a trans support group is going to talk about these matters, and sometimes talk about them a lot. But even there, there is a time and a place for these talks.

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

i have got the questions and i calmly explain...i get more flak for it here than i get in the real world where it actually matters.

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I'm certainly not trying to give you flak. You are entitled to feel how you feel, and I actually understand and sympathize having the desire to have a shorthand to sort of summarize all the things we have to do to transition and be our true selves. However, I sincerely feel that making that stuff the subject of conversation about is simply prone to do more harm than good. That's certainly how it's worked out in the past. That stuff just doesn't need to be part of the public discourse.

Within the community, do I really want to treat crossdressers differently than I'd treat anyone else? You tell me your name, what pronouns to use if it isn't just sledgehammer obvious, and unless I know you intimately, do I really need to know anything else? Does any of it matter?

I reach out to the local CD community here in Dallas. There's been a historically bad relationship between the group I'm a part of, and that community. And I think that emphasizing those differences, which absolutely has happened, has done a lot of harm. There are women who identified as CD who have realized "oh crap, I'm really a woman," but who've felt uncomfortable approaching my group for support in their transitions. This alone makes me not too keen on divisive terms in our community. The hostility between CD groups and groups of trans women is long standing, and well documented. Some of us who are women end up in these groups, really by mistake, but it happens, and it happens enough that I believe it is a real problem.

Anyway, I have no problems with how you or anyone else self-identifies Kaitlyn. I personally hate the word "transsexual" for a lot of reasons (I have a really, really long list of them!), but people who are comfortable with it should of course use it. I don't mean to try to invalidate how you feel - I'm really just asking the question "what does this particular word buy you?" I asked myself the same questions, and ultimately, I had to agree that it did me more harm than good.

I also don't think you are some type of elitist or anything nasty or negative Kaitlyn, I think your conduct on the forum for a long time should show there is no possibility of that being true. You are consistently constructive and a very nice woman. So I hope I've not made you feel otherwise (and if I have, please accept my apology), and if anyone else has, then shame on them, because you aren't.

I simply disagree with you on this matter.

Transgender does not equal transsexual. Aye yie yi, There ere are new glossaries out that relates all of the terms. transvestite is suppressed. So that puts us CD's under the transgender umbrella. Transsexual is the after operation to female. Dang, she is a female isn't she? So she should be a female not a transsexual. I do agree with PaulaQ that transsexual is not a good representation of them. By golly, they took all of this effort to become female. So be it. Man we are what we are and nobody should put us in a bucket. This is where laws are passed for that label and some may not be good.

If I'm Transexual (not a very nice name), I'm a woman that was born male.
If I'm Transgender, by your definition I'm little different to a Drag queen??

Transsexual to Drag queen couldn't be anymore different , so how can they possibly be in the same category.

Transsexuals should be under the female umbrella, this is the issue. The vast majority of people in the Transgender umbrella are male identified and this is why TS don't want to be included.

I'm not sure why I still come on here.
In the real world all my friends are female, I can't get on with Transgender people. Yet on here I'm told I belong not with my female friends but with other trans people.
That simply isn't the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by becky77

If I'm Transgender, by your definition I'm little different to a Drag queen??

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Of course not. You are totally different than that, and so am I. The point is that in terms of your legal protections and rights, there really should be no difference in what you can and cannot do under the law.

The point of using a term with such a nebulous definition is that we define ourselves. We don't give them a tidy label to divide us up. Because they will, and it will not be to our benefit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

.Deann thinks its not worth the bother

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No, you missed it.

The point is, because we as a community cannot agree on who we are and how we should come together, we abdicated. Since we didn't, or couldn't, fill the void the media at large did it for us. Once you lose the narrative it is VERY hard to get it back.

Also, you need to understand that long, drawn out definitions don't play well at all with people who really don't want to listen. Similarly, if you want to explain to someone how an engine works, you don't start with combustion theory, volumetric efficiency and tribology. The message needs to be tailored to the audience. If it's more than they can, or want to, absorb they will just glaze over and nothing will change.

So, help me understand. Since you want to separate yourself from us, does that also mean that you do not want our support?

Further, the word is Transgender. It is NOT transgendered, even though Merriam-Webster includes that. Transgender is an adjective and not a verb. An adjective doesn't have a past tense.

DeeAnn

Goodness everyone! Y'all need to stop debating the terms! There will NEVER be any agreement, it will continue to be a circular discussion and a waste of time (some people are rather tenacious with their views).

Just say what you do, no one can argue with that! :)

So Kaitlyn, for example, is physically, socially, and legally transitioned.

My SO, as another example, does not seek physical or legal transition, is comfortable identifying as a man in large parts of his life, considers him/herself gender flexible, and enjoys the freedom to express her femininity at will.

I know the above two sentences are a few words longer than saying "transsexual" or "transgender", but it takes a great deal less time to utter a sentence than it does to argue definitions for 10 pages of a thread. :p

As to what to tell employers when interviewing for a job, just tell them you are the gender you plan to work in. Meeting someone socially? Tell them as much as you want to, and if you don't want to elaborate, then don't. It's not that complicated. But in discussion in this forum, a person is hard pressed to identify him/herself as TS if they live as a man, to a TS who is physically, socially, and legally transitioned. How can the same word apply to two vastly different ways to live? So then we get back to identifying ourselves to the people in this forum by what we do. Simple.

Right? It's like a woman who has never been in a relationship with another woman and has always been and continues to be with men, would have a hard time convincing members of the lesbian community that she is lesbian. She could say, however, that she is attracted to women but she has never acted out on it. And then let others make up their own minds about who they think she is. But, no one would be able to argue with her statement about her attractions. Does this make sense?

thanks reine for framing it that way..
very wise and thoughtful

i abdicate nothing Deann... i do exactly as Reine says..
i say "i am a woman"

and if its important or suits my purpose i talk about my past...what is so tough about that ...in the real world i have never had one issue with this...

nor have i had an issue talking about what i am not...

not one problem, not ever..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

i abdicate nothing Deann... i do exactly as Reine says..
i say "i am a woman"

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Wrong once again.

I said "we", relating to the community, abdicated. I did NOT say You. Besides, evidently you are not part of the community that I was speaking about. And please try to spell my name correctly.

DeeAnn

ya'll do realize that the transgender community isn't ALL MALE TO FEMALE right?


Stop saying that transgenders = transsexual= WOMEN. Get it?

I don't really care what you call yourselves. I do care, as a TS that I get the same rights as a cisgender anything. If you all can't see why we need to stand for this then fine...go claim you don't want anything to do with any other part ...I just hope you never get arrested an put in a male cell because you didn't care, or you get thrown out of a restaurant because you didn't care...that you LOSE your child because you didn't care

Because you see, there is a fine line you all are walking, even if you stay at home and don't ever go out. Things right now are almost tolerable but it wasn't that long ago you would be hospitalized and maybe forced to have a lobotomy. Getting to play dress up and not worrying about going to jail or being institutionalized didn't just happen without someone making waves.

Care...don't care. If you are so self centered you think that things around you don't matter, I really feel for you.

(And y'all wonder why the transmen don't post or stay here... Self centered much?)

and this is done.